₦airaland Forum

Elvérita5: good day dear anti tithes compatriotes, i(Elvérita5) thought i am alone in this battle against tithing in the new covenant. i was amazed at the debates going on in this forum. i agree with all the christians who are against tithing and from henceforth i will bring my own contributions. To God be the glory. i started posting on my facebook page which you can consult at El véritas or alain gervais. for your information i am based in yaoundé in cameroon and i express myself both in french and english. that is why i have postings both in french and english languages. GOD bless of all you.

You are welcome.

Please visit the thread below to observe a tithe discuss going on presently btw anti-tithers and tithers; it is about the most civil we have been able to create on this forum

https://www.nairaland.com/1548047/theological-discuss-tithing-rhymeyjohn-image123

Whatever your thoughts are on the discuss there, you may leave your comment on it on a sister thread below as you are not allowed to contibute to the discuss until it is concluded. This is the thread you can comment on based on your observation in the discuss thread:

https://www.nairaland.com/1540233/inviting-tithers-theological-discuss-miwerds

You are welcome.

I think this is a SOLID point:

Mark Miwerds:

We have no problem with the fact that “all Scripture is given for doctrine.” The problem we have is when one tries to make Scripture that God specifically stated was for the nation of Israel doctrine that every nation is to obey. Using the logic that all Scripture is for doctrine and therefore to be practiced and obeyed, we must re-examine the following passage:

Exodus 32:26-27 Then Moses stood in the gate of the camp, and said, Who is on the LORD'S side? let him come unto me. And all the sons of Levi gathered themselves together unto him. And he said unto them, Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, Put every man his sword by his side, and go in and out from gate to gate throughout the camp, and slay every man his brother, and every man his companion, and every man his neighbour.

Hmmm, the Word of God says we should kill our neighbors, our brothers and our friends. After all, the Word is for doctrine, is it not? Of course we are not told by God to kill. Yet God did say “kill.” And all Scripture was given for doctrine. Just as the command was for the Levites to kill in Exodus 32 does not mean we are to kill our neighbors, our friends and our brothers, so also another commandment that was given to the Levites was not for us.

Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

The Levites were given the commandment to take tithe. We were not. Context is very important when studying scripture.

In other words, the only to interpret Exodus 32 correctly is to read it in context. Realizing that God gave a command to the Levite at that time; a command that does not apply to everbody. Therefore it is not wrong to see the context in which God's command are giving in scripture; thus we have

Hebrews 7:5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

Impeccable!

Image123:

Our reply will come in by the end of today. We want to use the opportunity to remind us of some of the rules of the thread. In particular we restate

1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling,
maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to
make an opponent look bad.

This is very correct Image123. But I have a feeling you have more to say on this than just quoting the rule.

Let me say that I have noticed something I would call "a little attack" from both sides in the presentations so far. It has been difficult for me to wade in and ask for caution as both sides have been equally guilty. Especially with this resort to "our opponent say...", etc. I had hoped that one of the participants will complain but since no one did, I assumed we could "stomach" it.

Now, I believe that this sort of thing cannot be avoided in a so called discuss that looks in every way like a debate. I will however enjoin our participants to tone down the volume a bit, as we all trust God to help us present our views without "attacking". Another thing, along these lines, is that these sort of things cannot be completely eradicated in a discuss like this. When we volunteered to be part of the discuss, we should have factored it in; in spite of the rules. Let us all play the "man" and be large hearted; trusting God to help us overlook supposed insults, while we try to make out points. If however, we cannot "stomach" it, let us make our complaints known with references to the exact issue of complaint.

So far we have discussed 12 points out of twenty; and the fact that we have not abandoned ship and called it quit shows that God Himself is in this discourse and will help us to reach conclusions that will glorify his kingdom at the end.

Again, I want to thank Rhymeyjohn, Image123, Candour and Mark Miwerds for this very sacrificial work of discussing the biblical tithes with us all. May the New Year grant all of your desires and bring even more.

Image123:
9. All points to be presented must be backed up by the Holy Bible,
the one accepted by most non-Catholic churches.

This is very true, again, as the discuss was intended to be biblical based. However, it does not out-law the fact that some participants can refer to verifiable documents beyond scriptures to lend credence to their position. As long as those documents can be verified, especially online, I believe we can accept them. No academic study anywhere in the world bases its proof on one source alone; including theological studies. This is not an academic discourse; we know. But, it is a discuss all the same and anything that will make it rich and not parochial is welcome. I have noticed that participants have not taken advantage of this but we should so that our audience can be better enlightened, many of whom are not necessarily bible students.

Joagbaje: Pastor chris is an apostle so what? Kenneth hagin was an apostle , smith wiggles worth was apostle and we have many apostles in the bible day and in our day. Except you don't know the meaning of the word apostle . The only 2 offices of apostles that cannot be claimed is the office of christ as our chief apostle and the apostles of the lamb who's name were written in the new Jerusalem .Apostles are still been raised in every generation . Pauline epistles were not written as a book to complete the bible . The church fathers did that and I don't have any problem with it. My post on Nairaland can be added to the future bible too. Pauline epistles were his personal letters and admonitions to his church members. So it's like any DVD and audio message by any of the ministers of our day. That' doesn't take away the fact that he was part of the church foundational apostle .ministry is the work of the Holy Spirit he doesn't diminish he is still doing his work through ministers in every generation .
I am not a law advocate . I am scripture advocate trying to curb the excesses of extremists because the Old Testament you try to discredit was the only canonised scripture the early church had. Which they study to show themselves approved. Because they were the scriptures in their generation inspired by the holyghost.

2 Peter 1:21
For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man:but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

Pastor Chris is an Apostle?

Kenneth Hagin an Apostle?...

Even Joagbaje and all those liking his posts could be apostles one day?

smh...

No wonder we have apostolic error reigning in the body of Christ all over the place these days!!!

If this is how you think, there is no need discussing with you anymore. I am done here; I have done my bit.

*Unfollows thread*

Image123

Indeed, Early Jewish Christians eligible to pay tithes would have paid BUT ONLY TO LEVITES at the temple NOT TO THE APOSTLES. Also, early christians paid MORE THAN 10% to the apostles, making nonsense of the present day fear of giving the apostles 10%. Same applies to all christians, whether jew or Gentile, they gave MORE THAN 10% in the church. An apostle wrote to a gentile church to give in proportion. The text rightly states every one of you. This was the mode of operation in an early church. They had a specific day, and EVERY ONE was to give. i guess every one means EVERY ONE? Free will every one. Newsflash, i say it again, i give my tithes free will.

Two points can be gleaned from this post by Image123

1. The matter of giving more than 10%

2. What 1 Corinthian 16:1-2 is really saying.

Giving beyond 10%

I have written on this earlier when I talked about free will giving. However, in addition, Image's post here simply confirm our position all along that the principle that tithing in the OT was trying to teach us in the New Testament is not to literally tithe our income or whatever we have but to learn to give to support God work. Tithing teaches giving and that is all. Indeed because of the nature of the NT and the liberty of the spirit that come with practice in it, we see that our giving must not be by compulsion or even by proportion but willingly and cheerfully. If Christians are not giving like our counterparts gave in the Early Church, the blame should be placed at the door step of the church. For in the days of God's power the people will be willing, including a willingness to give.

Unfortunately, because of the lack of power and a huge ecclesiastic burden that the clergy have placed on themselves, there is the need to get money at all cost. Thus the resort to the monetary tithes. Nothing more, nothing less. When power returns to the church; and church leaders show some evidence of accountability, transparency, and prudence in spending church finances; and when we have Christians that have been touched by God, we will have people giving much more than 10% like we did in Acts 4.

2. 1 Corinthians 16:1-3

1 Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye. 2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come. 3 And when I come, whomsoever ye shall approve by your letters, them will I send to bring your liberality unto Jerusalem.

While Image made a case for everyone to give, he forgets to add the context in which this was happening:

1. The giving was not to sustain excessive ecclesiastic burdens; to build churches; to buy jets; or to pay for a pastor ostentatious living; the giving was for poor saints in Judea. We see from this that all giving in the NT was to cater for the poor and nothing else.

2. There is no mention of tithe here. The giving should be according to what people have: what God has prospered them with. It was not ten percent.

This scripture is so clear that I wonder why tithers continue to use it to justify tithing. In fact it does not justify giving of offering in church services. There was a clear need in Jerusalem and Paul was showing them how they could have that need off setted. Set out a proportion according to what you have. Indeed it makes sense to say that when the need was met, the giving stopped! If however, we want to use this kind of scripture to justify giving in church, it should be free will offering as this is what 1 Cor 16 is talking about and not tithe.

Joagbaje: They never refer to their writings as scriptures. They were called epistles . Of course paul materials were largely circulated just as rhapsody is been circulated or any gospel material in our day . Can I call rhapsody by pastor chris scripture today? In the bible days the scriptures they had was old testaments .

2 Timothy 3:15
And that from a child thou hast known the holy scriptures, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus.

Pleasse don't insult my intelligence. Don't ever in your whole life compare Rhaphsody of Realities with Paul's epistles. Don't ever try it again. Paul started every epistle he wrote with the stamp of his apostolic office; how dare you compare him Chris Oyakhilome!

There is only one thing I want to hear from you law advocates and that is this "Paul was not an inspired author of scriptures" and I will be done with you on this forum. But as long as you do not have the boldiness to say that and you keep going round in circles, with some comparing Paul with Chris, then we will continue to forbear with you.

Joagbaje: The scripture the early church had was the Old Testament .

2 Timothy 3:16
All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

The only issue is that a man is no longer justified by works . The new was based on the old . But in the Old Testament time they sought justification by them but for us we are doing the word . Adultery is still adultery , murder is still murder.

I will ask a question : if a father would have sex with his own daughter by her consent is it a sin ?

If an elder would brother have sex with his sister by consent is it a sin?

And pls don't say it doesn't happen becsuse I counsel many people. And some don't even know it's wrong. Some close relative have married one another . Some families are having issues over such marriages . Until you show them from scriptures . And they go . " is it in the bible? but I love her , what do I do. ?

Why would Paul and other apostle be instructing early church on morality when they have Holy Spirit in them to lead them into all truth .

Romans 7:7
Well then, am I suggesting that the law of God is sinful? Of course not! In fact, it was the law that showed me my sin. I would never have known that coveting is wrong if the law had not said, “You must not covet.”

The moral instructions of the apostles were based on the law. They can't justify or make or righteous before God. We have the nature of God and the ability to do right but we must learn the right and wrong to develop our senses. If not conscience can be defiled and hardened. And we may not know.

Hebrews 3:13
But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.

Take for example Christians insulting , harassing , lying and abusing others on this forum , how come the Holy Spirit hadn't told them this is evil . We can't blame our wrongs on the holly spirit becsuse. " HE HASNT TOLD ME " it's for us to study and develop the character of God. Our knowledge and development is personal responsibility regardless of our titles .

1 Peter 2:2
As newborn babes, desire the sincere milk of the word, that ye may grow thereby:

What word , remember the scripture they had was Old Testament . Paul asked for his scrolls he told Timothy to study. ( Old Testament )

The only condemnation of the law is that it lack the power to justification because christ had done that for us. But the moral principle of the law are for learning .

Romans 15:4
For whatsoever things were written aforetime were written for our learning, that we through patience and comfort of the scriptures might have hope.

@Gombs

I will like to bring out the following from Jo' post (It is not a summary though)

a. The Matter of the OT as being the only scripture the first generation Christian used.

b. The matter of the law not being able to justify Christians.

A. What Scriptures did the First Generation Christians use?

It is true that the scripture the first generation Christians used were the OT. Indeed from Matthew 4 we see Jesus quoting copiously from the OT so as to defeat the temptation of Satan. Most of Paul's doctrine came from the OT. Remember this famous quote of not bridling the mouth of the Ox that threshes the wheat. No one contest this.

But we must put an end to this position when it is becoming a doctrinal position that seems to be made popular by the likes of Bidam so as to justify being zealous for the law. At such a junction we must remind ourselves that there is a scripture like this one:

15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you; 16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction. - 2 Peter 3

]

Peter recognized Paul's epistles as scriptures. We see Paul himself encouraging the churches to read the epistles he has written to each of them in Colosians. Another one:

19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God; 20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone; Ephesians 2

That is God's intention was to have the NT church built on the ministry and writing of the apostles and prophets. So what the apostles did is scripture also, and the early Christians saw what they did and wrote as scripture.

So the doctrine that all the scripture they had was OT is wrong.

B. The matter of the law not being a means of Justification [b]only.[/b]

It will take a poor reader of the NT to think that all that Paul and the other apostles taught was that the law could not justify. They indeed stated more and a good reading of the book of Galatians reveals this. Let us quote some scriptures:

16 Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified. 17 But if, while we seek to be justified by Christ, we ourselves also are found sinners, is therefore Christ the minister of sin? God forbid. 18 For if I build again the things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor. 19 For I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God. 20 I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me. 21 I do not frustrate the grace of God: for if righteousness come by the law, then Christ is dead in vain. - Galatians 2

Indeed this scripture shows it clearly that the Christian cannot be justified by the law. But it also goes further. It tell us in verse 21 that RIGHTEOUSNESS cannot come from keeping the law. The Christian righteousness encompasses all that he is from the time of Justification until his glorification. Our righteousness in Christ is our right standing. If the the law gives right standing then we do not need Christ. We need him because only faith and not the works of the law can bring this righteousness. "The life that i now live I live by the faith of the Son of God..."

1 O foolish Galatians, who hath bewitched you, that ye should not obey the truth, before whose eyes Jesus Christ hath been evidently set forth, crucified among you? 2 This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? 3 Are ye so foolish? having begun in the Spirit, are ye now made perfect by the flesh? - Galatians 3

What is Paul saying here? You are justified by faith, yes. fine. But how then do you think that having been justified by faith you can now become perfect by keeping the law? Paul calls them foolish for trying to use the law to obtain righteousness and right standing. The issue was what the Galatians were doing after they were saved and not what they were doing to be saved. I would encourage a careful unbiased study of Galatians.

Paul bringing up the matter of circumcision was to show clearly that the practice of Judaism is not Christianity.

So the matter of the law is way beyond it being not a means to justification; the NT clearly shows that we cannot use the law of Moses to live the Christian life.

Look at the list I enumerated from Ephesians 4. Is it not clear from that that the laws in the Christian life is way more than the laws of Moses? Can we not see that Moses' laws were a school master to lead us to justification by faith and the filling of the Spirit? Can we not see that following our infilling and the reading of the NT, we have ample laws to attend to both on the pages of the NT and on our hearts? I will encourge our brethren who are zealous for the law not to imitate the example of those disciples in Jerusalem. Read the scriptures well; they are the Judaizers that opposed Paul all of his life; they are the ones stealing in to curtail the disciples liberty. Do we take our example from them or from those who knew how to use the law lawfully?

Paul is an inspired author of scripture. And I am waiting for that person who will tell me he was not. No one is discontenancing Jesus' words for Paul. From the doctrine of dispensation, it is clear that Jesus operated under the law and was sent to the Jews. This is what informed a lot of thing he taught. We can learn from them and follow the moral rules in them. But the blue print for the Church and the Church Age will come from revealed truths by the apostles through the Holy Spirit on the pages of their epistles to the church.

I hope I have helped you Gombs?

@Goshen. I have sent it.

nlMediator:

Thanks for your straighforward answer. This is what you wrote in the post I responded to that prompted my question: "The Christian man follows a new law: the law of spirit of life in Christ Jesus; the law to love God and men." In your answer, you did not say you were guided by love to know that X's act is sinful but you said you were guided by the NT. Had you said that, I would not have posed the question - and if you recall I said your point about geting rules from the NT was solid. The problem is that many of you that talk about grace always claim that your guide is love, but as your answer shows, it's not just love or conscience; it's also rules. But we hardly ever hear that part from the mouth of grace teachers.

I respond to issues anywhere as I see the need. When I interact with people on this forum, I see people either in bondage to the law of Moses or people who cannot distinguish btw grace and law. So When I post anywhere here it is to make those issue clear to them. That was the whole purpose of the Grace Convention, to distinguish grace and law; and that was why non of them, law advocates, could be asked to teach, not because they are not sound, but because they were the audience. Unfortunately it seem they still did not get the message.

On other fora I could be found teaching the rules and regulation of the NT. Take for example the discussion thread on tithing, we took some two weeks to draft out the rules for that thread. By the time the thread started it took sometimes for the participants to get used to the rules, but now I hardly talk on that thread bc everyone is following the rules. So anywhere a system will work, there must be rules and regulation. My own emphasis here however is that the rules of the OT are different from the rules of the NT. The old Testament had Moses' laws. The NT has the law of spirit and life, taken from the law to love. Take for example some section of Ephesians 4:

17 This I say therefore, and testify in the Lord, that ye henceforth walk not as other Gentiles walk, in the vanity of their mind,

18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

19 Who being past feeling have given themselves over unto lasciviousness, to work all uncleanness with greediness.

20 But ye have not so learned Christ;

21 If so be that ye have heard him, and have been taught by him, as the truth is in Jesus:

22 That ye put off concerning the former conversation the old man, which is corrupt according to the deceitful lusts;

23 And be renewed in the spirit of your mind;

24 And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness.

25 Wherefore putting away lying, speak every man truth with his neighbour: for we are members one of another.

26 Be ye angry, and sin not: let not the sun go down upon your wrath:

27 Neither give place to the devil.

28 Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

29 Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is good to the use of edifying, that it may minister grace unto the hearers.

30 And grieve not the holy Spirit of God, whereby ye are sealed unto the day of redemption.

31 Let all bitterness, and wrath, and anger, and clamour, and evil speaking, be put away from you, with all malice:

32 And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you.

Every verse up there is a rule and a regulation for the Christian life. Where did Paul get them from? From Moses? Most definitely not. He got them from the law of spirit and life in Christ Jesus. It is those laws God put in the Christian's heart when he's saved as he teaches him to follow God in holiness. All the practical part of the NT follow this same concept. That is why you will not find anywhere under these sort of injunction "thou shall tithe" or "thou shall circumcize", as it should have been if indeed the law of Moses were the foundation for the NT church. The NT does not offer all the rules that the Christian must follow; the rest will come to us through godly men's teachings and their lifestyles and as we all walk and work with God. So we cannot do without rules; but that as it may Christianity is not Judaism and the law of Moses is not a "foundation" for Christians.

nlMediator:
You said where it is not clear from the NT what a believer should do, he should follow his conscience. Where 2 believers (husband and wife) get 2 different messages from the conscience about the rightness or wrongness of a proposed act, but the OT is clear about that, your argument is that one or both of them should go ahead and take a decision or action that is contrary to the OT. Why, when it's obvious that at least one of them would be wrong?

I believe I have attended to this in the post before this but I believe if we are patient enough and study scriptures long enough and are honest about our motives, we would know God's mind on any issue. So if the husband and wife have conflicting views about a thing, such things are bound to happen; let them discuss the matter and pray, while studying scripture and they will come to God's mind on the matter. It applies to every other thing including ministry but the reason why we have a plethora of churches is probably bc people are not broken enough to listen to how God wants his church to be run. So every one runs off doing his own thing with his own ideas.

nlMediator:
Sure, christianity is a different religion from Judaism. But Judaism still holds a special place in Christianity. In Rom. 10, especially verses 16-17, Paul shows a clear link between Christianity and Judaism. The root is the same. Christians and Jews are branches of the same vine. No other religion is accorded this privilege. So to treat Judaism as something completely unacceptable for all purposes is not scriptural.

I stand by what I said. It is easy to understand Romans 10 as the tree and root here is definitely Jehovah God. He instituted Judaism and started Christianity. My post on dispensation addresses this as God has instituted changes through dispensations into history for his own purpose. I still encourage you read that post. Romans 10 also speaks of a coming dispensation, the Millenium, when God will eventually save Israel and make Jesus their Lord and King. But until then, God's dealings in this dispensation is with the church, in the Church Age dispensation.

nlMediator:
Finally, you wrote: "Moses laws are very different from Nigerian laws. Moses' law were not subdivided but Nigeria's law are. There are a lot of difference there." I don't see the difference. They are both collections and systems of rules. And who told you that Nigeria's laws are subdivided? Who subdivided them - the Legislature that made the laws?

I stand by what I said until I am proven otherwise. Moses' laws are not divided. The Nigerian laws are.

Bidam: Yeah i just don't start lying against someone:.What do i stand to gain sef? Thank God Image confirmed it.At the mouth of Two or three witnesses a word is established. You can check the 18 or last page the first tithe thread he opened inviting mark, candour and co to see whether he edited his post when he invited Rude to a new thread in order to convert him

When you get a laptop, you can bring up the post where you said I said "atheist are better and closer to God than tithers". We can wait...

When I read that Bidam post this afternoon after returning from church, I had to read that thread all over again and I am sure I didn't say anything like that. How could I? I tithed fro 15 years was I worse than an atheist? My wife still tithes or at least still gave a tenth of her salary until November last year when she began to give what I have been saying some attention, was she worse than an atheist? I got to a church where you must tithe to be a member of the church are they all worse than atheist?

I could explain further what I meant by the statements I made but I wait for Bidam to quote me; don't worry, I am a man of utmost integrity, I have not edited those posts. The way I wrote them is the way I have left them.

@Gombs

I will attend to Jo' post soon enough.

@nlmediator

I will attend to the issues you raised in your post ASAP.

Thanks.

I have noticed that the chief occupation of law advocates on this forum is to leave the matters that are being discussed and dig up matter that do not relate with those.

When I came to this forum seeking understanding into the tithe, it was Alwaystrue that raised up some allegations against Goshen360 about his definition of fornication. A matter that had nothing to do with the tithe question I asked. Of course it had the effect she was seeking it to have; because of this I sent a PM to Goshen introducing myself and the first thing I asked him was his views on fornication. He explained himself and that was it. But despite having provided the same explanation to her and her allies on this forum she is still going on and on about it; even bringing it to the very thread.

So it is not surprising to see Bidam doing this about the thread I opened to discuss with an atheist. You can come to whatever conclusion you want about that thread but if you will quote me anywhere, I request you quote me correctly and not make twisted inferences.

Bidam: Yeah wonderful submissoin by Oga Jo...as for drumma you don't need to bother about him..he was the one that made a ridiculous statement in a thread about an atheist being closer to God than a chrisitian who tithe. I had lost every iota of respect i had for him when he made that statement.

He even went ahead to ridicule himself the more by opening a thread for the said atheist thinking he could convert him.Because of him the atheist blasphemed the name of God..You need to check out that thread.It was a show of shame really.

This is the link to the so called thread where you claimed I made the statement: https://www.nairaland.com/1565571/inviting-rudedough-discussion-god

If you have any iota of integrity left in you I want you to quote me verbatim from that thread and show me where I made this statement:

[size=16pt]an atheist being closer to God than a chrisitian who tithe[/size]

Or where I made a statement that can infer the above.

As for the respect you thought you had for me, you can shove it... everyone knows Bidam has no respect for any one that does not pay the fraudulent tithe

It was Image123 that first invented this lie in the tithe discuss. But since he was not bold enough to mention my monicker, I simply ignored it. But now that the chief word-twister has taken up the matter, I ask that you quote me correctly and not make twisted inferences.

Image123:

There are fellows on this forum who care less for many of Jesus' words and commandments, who would not be caught or found preaching against sin, or speaking out against sin, folks who would never say anything for the cause of Christ in the face of atheists and other glaring unbelievers, but are so vehement when the T word is mentioned. Its sometimes so bad that i've read someone say that an atheist is closer to God and better than a tither. But thank God for God.

So I have provided his words verbatim. You could do the same with mine. You can be sure I will not edit anything on those posts and I will stand by every word I have spoken.

@nlmediator

X's act is a sin.

How did I come to that conclusion? Because Moses' laws or the Moral aspect of Moses' law says we should not fornicate? No. Because the New Testament says so.

12 All things are lawful unto me, but all things are not expedient: all things are lawful for me, but I will not be brought under the power of any. 13 Meats for the belly, and the belly for meats: but God shall destroy both it and them. Now the body is not for fornication, but for the Lord; and the Lord for the body. - 1 Corinthians 6 and some other NT scriptures like it.

Someone will say Paul found his inspiration from the Old Testament. I would say yes and no. The faith that justifies the Christian saints today has the law and the prophets testifying about them (Romans 3:21). So, yes, the law gave the inspiration for the coming of the Christian faith but I used the word "inspiration" rather than "foundation" because Christianity is not a continuation of Judaism. They are different.

The Christian faith was sealed by the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ but when our Lord had gone; he sent the Holy Spirit who will eventually instruct the Apostles on how the Church and Christians life will work. This is what we have documented in the NT. First the Church or what we like to call the Church Age Dispensation has its life and theology built on the Apostles and Prophets - That is Peter, James, Paul, etc.

1 For this cause I Paul, the prisoner of Jesus Christ for you Gentiles, 2 If ye have heard of the dispensation of the grace of God which is given me to you-ward: 3 How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, 4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) 5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; 6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: 7 Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. - Ephesians 3

Permit me to say that these apostles and prophets introduced a brand new "religion" called Christianity. Who primary rule of life was walking in love; and with whom we had the Holy Spirit to instruct on what this love consist of. Now the OP has gone on and on about some people making conscience and other things their standard of rule which is bound to fail. True. But the resort to Moses to find "foundation" for Christianity is equally wrong. So what do we do. The New Testament, writtten by inspired Apostles and Prophets have all the rules and regulation the Christian man needs for life and godliness.

But indeed there arises some cases where it may not be distinctively clear what the Christian should do. Where does he get his standard of law from. From Moses? Capital NO. From NT? It might not be there. From where then? From the Spirit within him. God will tell him what to do.

Paul's grouse with the Judaizer of his time was that they wanted to make Christianity a continuation of Judaism. Paul made it clear to them that Christianty was starting off by itself; even though a lot had been prophesied about it in the OT. The OT may provide inspiration for Christianity but it is certainly not the foundation for it.

If you read my text well, you will notice that the only reason I criticize the subdivision is the tendency to divide it to the point of discarding some and keeping some. The NT discards the whole thing! Now for those who say we should cut off the OT from our bibles and read only new. I don't do that. In fact I am reading the OT in my personal study right now. It provides INSPIRATION for the NT and that is why the apostles encouraged that we read it.

On the matter of law, holiness and righteousness. It is incumbent on Christian ministers to not only teach the bible correctly but to live it correctly in holiness. It will inform the manner in which they teach the word, encouraging the saints on the path of godliness without the need for resorting to Moses. Indeed, there are sins coming out today that even Moses never envisioned, just like the OP said. How do we handle such? The answer lies with the Spirit. But when we have godly ministers they can point us on the right path and we will walk it without getting hurt or without keeping Moses. This is what Ephesian 4-6; colosians 3; etc, consists of.

The NT does not subdivide Moses' laws. And no one has yet provided a scripture for such subdivision. It is ok if we subdivide it to comprehend it but to make a standard for the law we keep or not keep is wrong. Moses laws are very different from Nigerian laws. Moses' law were not subdivided but Nigeria's law are. There are a lot of difference there.

Humanbeans: Ladies and gents, I just spoke wt the young man, and he assure me he wont do anything stuipid. I thank God for HIS mercies.

Oh that is good.

He says he is a music producer. Where does he live? Nairaland has people everywhere and I am sure some people can get to talk to him. Not too many people hit the floor of life to the point of wanting to take their life and when we find such individual it makes sense we extend any help we can.

If the house can see a gentle man ready to take hold of his life, I am sure people will help him.

So please, while concealing his anonymity and you have access to him, let us know how we can help him.

Gombs: Drummerboy, my problem with you is that you can't keep ur post short and precise... now, u want me to read the above?...I stopped halfway...and u still going round circles.

Believe it or not, the point of this thread is to show that the law is good, and the principles of God in those laws are eternal...the law is not completely abolished as most folks think... its major fault is that it couldn't make anyone perfect/righteous... no one is denying the works of grace, but to say the law is completely abolished is laughable

@goshen, apologise for ur errors...and let's move on

My own problem with you is that you cannot read.

I do not know if we should blame laziness or what? How do you read your bible, if you cannot read long texts? Sound theological discusses anywhere are not text messages, my friend. It is this same attitude you bring to my blog and you disparage it not for want of soundness but because they are too long. You sure are a new kind of theologian. No wonder error reigns.

If you are really intent on understanding all I worte, luckily, the last five lines were a summary of everything I wrote. You could read that one.

YcBeat: Wish i had Ahzheimer disease.......just to forget everything

I am grateful to God that you are still alive.

When there is life there is hope.

First, I think you should edit that post where you put your real name and password; so you still have your access to this forum yourself and not having people come as you when you could be dead!

Next, I request you tell us what state of this nation you live. Nairaland is a large community and we could get one of us visit you. If you live in Ibadan, I can visit you in an hour. lol!

Next, let us know your educational qualification. Your experitse. A summary of your CV, etc. You will be suprised there is someone ready to give you a job straight away.

And lastly, as you get on your feet I will also recommend seeing a therapist to help you coordinate your thinking. If you have entered the suicide mode before, there is nothing stopping you from entering it again. You need someone to talk to and I am sure you can get it free of charge. And if you are a christian there are hundreds of us on the religious section that can help counsel you in Christ.

Let me know your take on all this!

@Gombs

Sorry my friend you have not provided one scripture that shows that the laws given through Moses can be subdivided into Ceremonial, Moral, Civil, Ethical or Scribal. Now, it is really not your fault that you can't find such a scripture. The fact is that there is no such scripture in the whole of the bible. I understand the position of nlmediator who says that though such a scripture does not exist, we could subdivide the laws Ceremonial, Civil and Moral, for our own learning and understanding. I believe such theological position was taken in the same way the word "trinity" was coined to understand the three person in the God-head. But the problem with his distinction and yours is that while he subdivides his own to three, you subdivide yours to five! Adding ethical and scribal. Does it mean that we are all at liberty to divide Moses laws the way we like and take up the parts we want to keep in our dispensation while discarding the rest? Does it not further prove that the whole process of sub-division is the "wisdom of men" and has little or nothing to do with God? If a theological term like trinity is coined to understand God better, what does subdividing Moses laws achieve? Is it not better to leave it the way it is and approach it the way the NT commands us to?

Now to help me comprehend this subdivision more you refer me to Matthew 23:23 and showed that Judgement, Mercy and Faith will come under the division of Ethical and Moral laws. But that position leaves behind a lot of questions. One of them is that do we now subdivide the laws of Moses to Judgement, Mercy, Faith and Tithes (as tithes must be included in the subdivision even though it is not weighty)? In that sense what happens to other divisions of the law that include ceremonial, civil and scribal? If Jesus was really subdividing the laws, do you not think he would have mentioned those too even though they may have be done away with in our dispensations? The truth about Matthew 23:23 is that it was not about subdividing the laws of Moses as you would have us believe. Jesus was simply helping us to comprehend the weighty matters of Moses law and the light ones. Laws that do not apply to Christians today by the way.

So you see that you have not shown any scripture that subdivides the law of Moses.

When the NT talks about Moses laws, it never sees it in a three or five sub division; it sees it as a whole and it is all the whole that is refered to as a ministry of death (2 Corinthian 3); it is all the whole that has been abolished in the cross of Jesus (Hebrew 8:13).

I cannot agree with the OP that the law of Moses is a "foundation" for us today. What that statement implies is that Christianity is a continuation of Judaism. That is error raised to the power of error and the result is unimaginable error. This is the reason why we have all the wrong teachings that pervade the church today.

The problem we have with tithing stems from the wrong foundation. If you see Christianity as a continuation or a modified form of Judaism, then you will modify some of the practices in Judaism and impose on Christians today. What we however, have noticed about the tithe is that in regards to it, this modification has the hand of what I would call the conspiracy of the clergy in it. These men of God have browsed through all the 613 laws of Moses and singled out some, especially the tithe (and lets not forget first fruit too this January) that will benefit their ministry and called it tithe. They take offence that we have shown them that it is not God's holy tithe (Leviticus 27:30-33) and they make their followers persecute us for taking such stance (I will not bore you with what anti-tithers go through in their local churches here).

Christianity is not Judaism.

Law is law in the NT and has no subdivision.

Paul the apostle was an inspired author of scriptures and helped us to see how the law came to an end.

The Christian man follows a new law: the law of spirit of life in Christ Jesus; the law to love God and men.

There are dispensations in God's dealing with men and it will be good we learn that doctrine ASAP.

Cheers!

I think its too late. The OP must be dead by now. What the NL communityy can do is to set in place a suicde prevention mechanism to take care of the hurting like Kelvin. But Kelvin if U are still alive give us a chance to discuss this matter. I am certain U will find people who can help U here on NL. Just one chance...

@trustman,.so we can say Image quoted U correctly. But did U mean what he claimed U meant or he succeeded in twisting your words?

Gombs: ^^
I did not insult u... "it's a shame" you think I did.

It's a shame means it's a pity....now, to u, that's an insult?

Oya, let me ask this, in matt 23v23, what were the weightier matters of d LAW Jesus spoke about..cn u kindly list them here? Thank you

Judgement, Mercy and Faith.

How does this answer my question to you? How does this relate to the law being subdivided into ceremonial, civil, moral, scribal and ethical? Those are still my questions to you?

Image123: PRESENTING R6 Our tithing is because Jesus never condemned it and suggested that it ought to be done. (Luke 11:42)

Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Jesus Christ is the author and finisher of the christian faith. He is the One christians are supposed to follow, the One who ought to be obeyed rather than men. The above Scripture was spoken by Him while He was here on earth physically. Anyone that knows Jesus knows that He is the Truth. He is the Word made flesh, the Way personified. Jesus Christ said Himself that the words that He speaks are Spirit and Life. Therefore, we ought to give the more earnest heed to His words.

It would be good if we gave heed to what He said about tithes. He said
Luk 11:42 But woe unto you, Pharisees! for ye tithe mint and rue and all manner of herbs, and pass over judgment and the love of God: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Here it is AGAIN from Matthew, so that we can be doubly sure He's not making a slip in opinion.
Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

These ought ye to have done. His words cannot pass away. He could not be giving advice that is not the will of God to anyone, even if such a fellow is the devil. These ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone. Are we to leave judgement, mercy and faith undone? Certainly not!

I like the way Image went about making emphasis on Luke 11:42. Well he needed to make his point clear on the matter.

What I will simply want to know is this:

1. Is Image123, pro-tither and all Christians Pharisees?

2. Is there are distinction between Christianity and Judaism or the former is just a mere continuation of the latter?

3. Matthew 8:1-3 says "1 When he was come down from the mountain, great multitudes followed him. 2 And, behold, there came a leper and worshipped him, saying, Lord, if thou wilt, thou canst make me clean. 3 And Jesus put forth his hand, and touched him, saying, I will; be thou clean. And immediately his leprosy was cleansed. 4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, show thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them".

Therefore:

a. Are Christians expected to make offerings to priests or pastors when they are healed of diseases?

b. Is it not proper to look at Matthew 23:23 in the context in which it was spoken, the same way we will see Matthew 8:3 in a context, to be able to properly understand the text?

c. Can we not see that the injunction Christ gave the man healed is an injunction under Judaism that does not apply to Christian; in the same manner that Matthew 23:23 or Luke 11:42 is? Should we now make a case for "Christ words that will not pass away" to begin to follow the letter of a spoken word and refuse to understand the spirit behind them?

I will not be commenting further until Candour/Miwerds, who are well able on this matter, do justice to it.

Gombs: https://www.nairaland.com/1116294/three-types-laws-bible-responsibilities

It's a shame that u don't know the bible or what it says...

The above thread was of 2012, though the author is an anti tither like u, at least he knew the different types of laws in the OT.

I'm done going round circles with you, post something worth debating or just, sit at the sidelines. Thanks

I am going to muster all the "moral" strength within me to ignore your insulting me. This is a New Year and I am determined that my discusses on this forum is going to be as civil as I can muster.

I thank you for refering me to the above thread by an anti-tither. But I did not request for a thread, not even one by an anti-tither. I requested for a bible verse that divides the laws God gave Moses into civil, ceremonial, moral, ethical or scribal; or any verse at all in the whole of the bible that divides those laws into any two or more distinctions. What I read in the NT is that the law of Moses is seen as one entity called LAW.

Another New Year resolution is not to enter into debates on bible doctrines on this forum. I prefer discussions. We have succeeded in making one here: https://www.nairaland.com/1548047/theological-discuss-tithing-rhymeyjohn-image123. For which you and your "allies" are invited to come and learn how theological discusses can be most civil and edifying, devoid of insults and jibes.

On a final note here, I am not lawless. The teachings of Jesus and the letters of Paul provide ample substances for the way and manner a Christian must conduct himself. Example Ephesian 4-6; Colosians 3. These admonitions are the way of life God will direct the believer in Christ in the New Testament church to live out. This laws or way of life are in accordance with the summary law of God which is to LOVE.

[size=16pt]DISPENSATIONS[/size]

The panorama of dispensations reveals the majestic character of God through the progression and variety of His grace. Each dispensation has a divine purpose, supported by the right divine provisions. The riches of grace available in the Church Age (Church Age is the dispensation between the resurrection of Christ up till the rapture of the saints), for example, correlate with God’s special objective of glorifying the resurrected Christ to the maximum. This purpose and these provisions explain why the Christian way of life differs from the outpouring of God’s grace to believers during other periods of history(or other dispensations). The Church Age believer should be eager to understand and use what God has designed specifically for him and thus allow the glory of God to be manifest in his life.

Still, someone might ask, why not regard the bible as a single whole? Isn’t that simpler? Why complicate things with all these distinctions? The primary reason is because the bible makes these divisions. Continuities and distinctions established by sovereign God must receive our complete respect, for they reveal something about Him. The unity of God’s Word actually is embodied in this doctrine (of dispensations) which present the relationship between the Bible’s various parts.

A second reason for recognizing distinctions in the Bible is that the believer needs to know how to conduct his life. As he learns to utilize what God has given him, he becomes aware of divine policies and assets that are legitimate for other dispensations but that do not directly govern the Christian way of life. When there seem to be contradictions, which commands should we obey? When questions arise, he needs answers. The doctrine of dispensations provide the biblical system of interpretation for understanding why certain divine provisions are currently nonoperational, as well as why other currently operational.

In no way does this mean the believer can pick and choose which divine command he wants to obey. Each dispensation is God’s administration, not man’s, and God gives firm and ample guidance for every period of history. Advancing believers are not disobedient or in danger of lawlessness simply because they do not observe the rules God set for another age (or dispensation). Indeed, their spiritual growth comes from obedience to God’s instructions for the current dispensation. The doctrine of dispensations relieves the Christian’s doubts about whether or not God holds him responsible for observing certain practices. This gives his life direction, frees him from a false sense of obligation or guilt, and by answering his questions encourages him to delve deeper into the riches of the Word of God.

The well-informed believer is able to compare and contrast the dispensations. He understands the implication of many statements such as:

You are not under law (the dispensation of Israel) but under grace (the dispensation of the church) – Romans 6:14b, NASB

But now that faith (the entirety of what is believed or the mystery doctrine of the dispensation of the church age) has come, we are no longer under a tutor (the law of Moses) – Galatians 3:25, NASB

Therefore let no one act as your judge in regards to… things (significant in the Old Testament ritual) which are a mere shadow of what is to come; but the substance belongs to Christ (who sets the precedence for the believer’s life in the Church Age dispensation) – Colosians 2:16-17, NASB

The study (on dispensation) provides a framework for understanding the Word of God. It also will help protect the Christian from blurring biblical distinctions, from distorting a true doctrinal sense of proportion, and from misapplying divine commands. The doctrine of dispensations teaches what the Christian way of life is – and what it is not.

Culled from the book by R. B. Thieme (Jnr) THE DIVINE OUTLINE OF HISTORY – Dispensations and the Church. The text above is titled RESPECT FOR DIVINE DISTINCTIONS in the book.


I will beg those who find it hard to read long texts to try and read this one.

I understand that Pastor Thieme is human like most of us and very subject to fallability. But I have lent his opinion on this matter because it is unbelievable how terribly ignorant of the subject of dispensation most of us are. I confess that until about a year ago, I myself did not know what it meant. So we can debate bible doctrines but we can also resort to the wisdom of those who have gone ahead of us.

END

Goshen360: I can assure our readers, this thread is gonna be one of the best, aside of tithe threads that I will ever present Apostolic teachings on.

And I can see that you are just warming up. Make I discharge and come back and watch you do your thing soon enough...

Gombs: Did you just say there are no such thing as civil, moral, ethical and scribal laws in the bible?... na wa o, just so u know, death penalty started in the Bible... the laws of the Western world including civil laws were coined out of the bible, how then did u conclude that there aint such thing as civil, moral, ethical and scribal laws in the WHOLE people?

Chaaaaaaaaaaaaai

There is no such thing as civil, moral, ethical and scribal laws in the bible. I am not talking about laws among nations. We are talking bible here. And when you find civil, ceremonial, ethical or scribal laws in the bible, especially the Old Testament, you may refer us there. Thank you.

Gombs: The ceremonial laws including "clean" and "unclean" lists, sacrifices, dietary restrictions, ritual washings, etc.
The civil law regulating social behavior and specifying crimes, punishments and other rules
The moral and ethical laws, such as the Ten CommandmentsThe Pentateuch (the first 5 books of the Bible)
The scribal law - the 600+ rules formulated by the scribes that everyone was expected to obey
The Scripture as a whole

Since both you and Jo' claim to be saying the same thing with me only that you are saying a little "more" than I said, I will not continue with my original text but will only add a little bit to what you have written above; let me lend you into a little "a,b,c" I learnt on nairaland.com religion section:

There is no such thing as [size=16pt]CIVIL, MORAL, ETHICAL,or SCRIBAL[/size] laws in the whole of the bible - including the Old Testament where you are referring to (forgive my enlarging the text; it is for emphasis sake, so that no one can claim not to see them). This is what the scripture says of all laws in the Old Testament from 2 Corinthian 3:

6 Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life.

We are New Testament ministers. We, New Testament minister, are the ones who minister "of the Spirit". Those who minister the Old Testament, we will yet see, are the minister of death. So the subject of spirit ministers is not because of one cool revelation we got from reading the old Testament but the fact that we understand what the New Testament is all about. This testament is ratified by the blood of Jesus. And everything that blood sort to provide us is the ministration of the New Testament. Thus anyone who resorts to the Old Testament or the Old Covenant for so called revelations to live the Christian life are ministers of death!

7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

This ministration of death is neither ceremonial, ethical, scribal or moral laws. This ministration of death is what was engraven on the stone by the finger of God himself - THE TEN COMMANDMENT! And note that the ten commandment is the foundation for all the other 613 jewish laws in the bible. So if the ten commandment is a ministration of death; so also is all the others. So the matter is still not thinking that the law was designed for our justification or not; the matter is that there is no place for the law in the New Testament. It is a ministration of death. Christ death did not happen so that we may have grace to keep the law. Christ's death abolished the law - which scripture rightly calls enmity with God(Ephesian :15). So I say again whichever of you wish to use the law, either for justification or whatever else at all, you have fallen from grace; Christ is of no effect to you!

8 How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? 9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. 11 For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

The ministration of the spirit, the New Testament is the source of true and enduring glory. Anything else is a source of fading glory.

So at the end we should realize that we are not saying the same thing. Rather we are saying a lot of different stuffs. Here I am laying foundation and will still go on to quote a man of God on the subject of DISPENSATION. A subject that settles every matter of doctrinal conflicts about the law but which will continue to annoy law advocates because it puts to naught this love and zealousness for the law. When I am done doing that, I will talk about tithing - the subject that has makes all of us angry on this forum. And the truth is that it is supposed to be so because just like circumcision in Paul's day, tithing as a subject calls all of us back to understanding the scripture better.

When I am done with that I will be calling the house, especially my many good friends and laws advocates (I believe law advocate is very much better than modern day judaizers - that is me reforming my language not to annoy some people too much this year 2014) to come to the tithe disscuss thread where justice is being done to the subject to make their contribution for the sake of posterity and as many as are looking for light into the subject of tithing.

Dispensations by R. B. Thieme (Jnr), next.

Regardless of what the OP says, these scriptures cannot be expunged from the New Testament:

Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin - Romans 3:20

The purpose for the giving of the law was to bring the knowledge of sin. The law was a school master to bring us to the matter of faith in Christ (Galatians 3:19,24)

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets - Romans 3:20

No matter how good the law was, it could never bring the righteousness of Christ. God's righteousness has been revealed today. It is witnessed by the law and prophets because the law and prophets or the Old Testament spoke about its coming.

Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: - Romans 3:21

This righteousness is not self righteousness; it is not good deeds; it is doing our best; it is the RIGHTEOUSNESS OF GOD! Woe betide any man who approaches the throne of God without that garment of righteousness regardless of how "zealous for the law" they are.

6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. - Romans 11:6

The righteousness of God revealed to sinners apart from the law is a subject of God's grace. It is grace, grace and grace. It is not law and it can never be works. The two, grace and works, are anti-thesis to each other. If you are not secured in grace, you will find your security in works. And that way you shall fall from grace, Galatians 5:4

4 Though I might also have confidence in the flesh. If any other man thinketh that he hath whereof he might trust in the flesh, I more: 5 Circumcised the eighth day, of the stock of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, an Hebrew of the Hebrews; as touching the law, a Pharisee; 6 Concerning zeal, persecuting the church; touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless. 7 But what things were gain to me, those I counted loss for Christ. 8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, 9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith: - Phillipians 3

I think the above scripture is self explanatory enough. I have said it and will say it again, the only thing that law advocate can do on this forum is to tell us that Paul the apostle is not an inspired author of scripture. This they can do honorably than resort to twisting his writings to their own destruction.

To be continued...

OlaoChi: Lol why have you been hiding?

Always been here, reading.

God bless you Seemylife

I pray our friends have hears to hear

Like tithing, like first fruits.

Every bit of them are doctrines of men.

When did the tithe and first fruits become hard core currency when the Old Testament gave them as agric products.

The post by frosbel above answer it all!

The whole discuss stands and falls on these points Candour had provided:

Candour]:

RESPONSE TO REBUTTAL M5

We will once again remind our brethren that we are having this discussion because of a lot of Lies that have been told the children of God to force tithes out of them, particularly these four below

1. If you don't tithe, you will burn in hell for ever.

2. If you don’t tithe, you’ll have devourers like accidents, sickness, job loss, financial backwardness etc but if you do, you’ll have plenty money, sickness free life etc.

3. Pay tithe as eternal principle to prove Abraham is your father according to Gen 14 and Heb 7

4. Pay tithe to your pastor because he is senior to you in the order of priesthood of Melchizedek

But for the above lies, particularly the ones in bold, we won’t be discussing this issue. I also noticed that our brothers conveniently shied away from confronting head on, the truths and facts below

And Image and Co have refused to answer these questions.

I give it to Image that he truly does not hold the views that Candour have expressed above but this are the reasons the tithe is debated so intensely. I had a conversation with a Pastor and he expressed the same sentiments. In fact he said something like this: "If we tithe and we get to heaven and realize that it was not a requirement, we will be safe. But God forbid we find that it is required for us to be saved and we did not tithe". And I was like: "... and you are a Pastor; you do not know what your salvation is based on?".

My hope is that some tithers will come and shed light on the four facts that Candour has raised here since Image believes this is not the position of most tithers and we believe this is their position and this is the reason tithe is so hotly debated anywhere.