₦airaland Forum

Image123: Please, we would be requesting for time for the rebut. By God's grace in the next 7 hours i.e before 4pm nigerian time(i guess that should be 10am in misssissippi).

Bidam: What aspect do you think was abolished?

who the hell told you i was picking and choosing? I am suppose to be the one accusing you of picking and choosing, not the other way round.

DrummaBoy: You guys need to appreciate Bidam's challenge here. Someone had taught him and his clique a lie saying that Moses' laws are divided into MORAL, CIVIL and CEREMONIAL laws. While the other two remains, the ceremonial is abolished. Burnt offerings will come under ceremonial laws. Tithes will come under civil. Adultery, stealing, etc, will come under moral.

He has however refused to understand that this demonic division of God's law is nowhere written in the whole bible. LAW IS LAW. if the NT says the law is abolished it includes all three regardless of how much they are subdivided. A new law Chist has given us - the law to love; simple and not complicated. All the other laws are fulfilled in that law. Time will not allow me to discuss it here at length but I refer you to Mark Miwerds Rebuttal R3 on the tithe discuss https://www.nairaland.com/1548047/theological-discuss-tithing-rhymeyjohn-image123/4#20229237 ; he did justice to it there.

Candour: Thanks Image123 for your post.

@moderators, we'll get in our response 7pm tommorow by God's grace. We crave your indulgence.

Thank you

12 And by the hands of the apostles were many signs and wonders wrought among the people; (and they were all with one accord in Solomon's porch. 13 And of the rest durst no man join himself to them: but the people magnified them. 14 And believers were the more added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women.) Acts 5

Bidam: hmmn..this scripture aptly describe the thrash you posted.

2 Peter 3:16 (GW)

16 He talks about this subject in all his letters. Some things in his letters are hard to understand. Ignorant people and people who aren’t sure of what they believe distort what Paul says in his letters the same way they distort the rest of the Scriptures. These people will be destroyed.

trustman: Now i ask you about a portion in Galatians and you look for an escape route?

The issue is simple:
Apostle Paul was addressing those who were ALREADY believers in the Messiah. Was he not? Therefore was he just stating HOW one can be saved or how not to live their spiritual lives after salvation? I will really want your answer on this though you seem to always avoid questions that you see challenge your position.

Modern Day Judaizers

If any of us had lived in the time of Apostle Paul, there is likelihood we also would have opposed his teachings. That is why I think Peter said his teachings are difficult to understand. Take for example, the circumcision that he was so vehemently opposed to. God himself had given the ordinance of circumcision to Abraham before the coming of the law and had instructed that it was to last to all generations in Genesis 17:

7 And I will establish my covenant between me and thee and thy seed after thee in their generations for an everlasting covenant, to be a God unto thee, and to thy seed after thee. 8 And I will give unto thee, and to thy seed after thee, the land wherein thou art a stranger, all the land of Canaan, for an everlasting possession; and I will be their God. 9 And God said unto Abraham, Thou shalt keep my covenant therefore, thou, and thy seed after thee in their generations. 10 This is my covenant, which ye shall keep, between me and you and thy seed after thee; Every man child among you shall be circumcised. 11 And ye shall circumcise the flesh of your foreskin; and it shall be a token of the covenant betwixt me and you. 12 And he that is eight days old shall be circumcised among you, every man child in your generations, he that is born in the house, or bought with money of any stranger, which is not of thy seed. 13 He that is born in thy house, and he that is bought with thy money, must needs be circumcised: and my covenant shall be in your flesh for an everlasting covenant. 14 And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

But here was Paul saying that anyone who allowed himself to be circumcised had fallen from grace. How then are we to reconcile Paul teachings with the whole of scripture: First we must understand that God in his wisdom chose Paul as an apostle (maybe in replacement of Judas) to propagate this gospel. Also, there was nothing Paul preached that the apostles who had witnessed the Lamb in the flesh did not know. That they did not preach it is another issue. And lastly, anyone who witnessed Paul’s ministry, the grace on it, the signs and wonders, and the sheer fact that God was with this man could not but agree that what he was teaching was sound doctrine.

Today we have a whole lot of folks who are still opposing Paul, long after he has left. I came across one Femi Aribisala who feels that Pauls writings are not scripture but mere letters. Paul himself had warned that in the last days men would no longer endure sound doctrine. The reformation of the sixteenth century gained it strength from the writing of Paul the apostle – so that in Martin Luther and John Calvin, the Roman Catholic Church was confronting Paul again. Everywhere institutional church is created, there is a head on collision with Paul’s writings. Why? Probably because Paul’s teaching were not suited for organized church but for every day Christian living.

For example, Paul’s writing did not support tithing. And tithing is the only means of supporting organized church today. No where in all his writing did Paul ask anyone to pay tithe to a church or to himself. But modern day Judaizer would have us believe that tithing is an ordinance of God. When they say pay your tithe, Malachi 3: 8-10 is quoted:

8 Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings. 9 Ye are cursed with a curse: for ye have robbed me, even this whole nation. 10 Bring ye all the tithes into the storehouse, that there may be meat in mine house, and prove me now herewith, saith the LORD of hosts, if I will not open you the windows of heaven, and pour you out a blessing, that there shall not be room enough to receive it.

If we assume the scripture quoted above was not addressed to Levites and Priest (though some of us contend it was) and actually take it as God’s word, how do we reconcile the above scripture with another already quoted above (Genesis 17) where God was saying that Circumcision was to be an eternal ordinance in Israel and anyone who doesn’t practice it would be cut off? The truth is that whether Malachi 3 is addressed to Levites or Israelites or Abraham does not matter; if the doctrine Paul preached made it clear that gentiles where not to be circumcised, it is easy to conclude that gentiles are not to pay tithe either.

Now the tithe doctrine is even less arguable than circumcision even though both of them are pre-law and both of them were practiced by Abraham (By the way Abraham paid tithe only once). But tithing was never a subject for disputation in the time of Paul because most Jews of that time where not tithing. The tithe that God describes in Malachi, as well as other part of the Old Testament, was 10% of agricultural produce. And by the time of Jesus most Jews were not agriculturist so the tithe was not an issue. Even Jesus was never said to have tithed because Jesus was not a farmer but a carpenter.
So Paul again finds himself contending modern day Judaizers who are bent on ensuring that redeemed gentiles pay tithes to established church institutions.

Modern day Judaizer are also, always, dictating to their church members, the rules they must keep and not keep. Unfortunately the women folk, who have very little to say in church administration, are the ones that suffers the most. “You must not wear ear-rings”; “You must not wear trousers”; “You must not wear make up”; “You must not wear tight fitted clothing’s”. They could easily compare these rules and regulation to Colossians 2:20-22 to find out the scriptural basis of what they are doing. It does not end there. Modern day Judaizers have turned the church of God to their own by posting lists of things that make an individual a bona fide member of (their) church. Recently a prominent Pentecostal church, with a large mission base on Lagos-Ibadan express way announced to its members that anyone who doesn’t tithe would no longer enjoy the church support during wedding and other ceremonies.

The core doctrine of modern day Judaizers is that church must regulate how its members live and behave: thus the need for the rules and regulations. If this is not done, church members will bring reproach to the organization or they will sin and loose their salvation.

At the center of this thinking is ignorance of the doctrine of grace that Paul the apostle taught and lived. If this message is however shared with these people, they malign it and say people are being encouraged towards lawlessness. There are many ways to answer this but the best is to paint the picture of our Lord Himself. If Jesus, the owner of the Church, had such proprietary kind of mentality towards the church, he would not have left 11 unschooled fishermen to propagate his gospel after him. But the chief proponent of a gospel of grace that encourages freedom and trust in God, through the Holy Spirit, is Jesus Himself. He knew that days after his ascension the Holy Spirit will come and use mere, weak, infallible and untaught men to turn the world up side down for God.

This is the sort of mentality the church should have: if men have been truly converted, the church should trust God to establish those men. The God that is able to save, is also able to keep safe: genuine believer cannot loose their salvation. This God is able to also justify, sanctify, and eventually glorify those he has saved. When the church takes up the duty that only God can do, they turn themselves into modern day Judaizers.

Bidam: So unlike the error in that article candour,drumma posted and you and trustman were saying, Paul absolutely believes and teaches the Mosaic law to gentiles from the scripture above.He not only teaches it He lived as we can see by his acts of deed of bringing alms and offering to the Jewish temple in Jerusalem. The only thing the JEWS were against was his claim that Jesus resurrected from the dead and not tithes and offerings.

My point in this piece is not to discuss what the gospel of grace is but to show that the gospel that Paul preached was not the ones the Judaistic Christians preached and it was a source of offence to these people, for which Paul suffered through out his ministry.

Paul did not take it kindly with these people. Because in the bid to walk in love and discern the body of Christ, we are not to condemn other believers because they are weak (Romans 14), but the fact that Paul used the strongest terms possible against these people showed that these people were not Christians but the enemies of the gospel.

In Galatians, Paul suggested that any one who wanted to circumcise others to be saved should not only circumcise himself but totally cut off his own manhood:

Galatians 5:12 I would they were even cut off which trouble you.

Paul talked about how some people came in to secretly spy on the liberty they enjoyed as Christians in Galatians 2

3 But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised: 4 And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: 5 To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

In Phillipians 3, Paul used the strongest word ever to describe the sect of the circumcision: dogs

1 Finally, my brethren, rejoice in the Lord. To write the same things to you, to me indeed is not grievous, but for you it is safe. 2 Beware of dogs, beware of evil workers, beware of the concision. 3 For we are the circumcision, which worship God in the spirit, and rejoice in Christ Jesus, and have no confidence in the flesh.

Paul emphasized in Colosians 2 so many times the phrase “let no man…”; to drive home the point that people of the Judaistic religion must be resisted at all cost:

16 Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days: 17 Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. 18 Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind, 19 And not holding the Head, from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishment ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God. 20 Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ from the rudiments of the world, why, as though living in the world, are ye subject to ordinances, 21 (Touch not; taste not; handle not; 22 Which all are to perish with the using after the commandments and doctrines of men? 23 Which things have indeed a show of wisdom in will worship, and humility, and neglecting of the body; not in any honour to the satisfying of the flesh.

In verse 18, the apostle leaves a word for those who, like today, are always coming up with a new revelation of heaven and hell. He says it is the outcome of their fleshly minds.

In Titus 1, Paul says the mouth of these Judaizers should be stopped

10 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11 Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13 This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith; 14 Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth. 15 Unto the pure all things are pure: but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving is nothing pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled. 16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.

Paul contended these men to the end. I have an intimation that the thorn in the flesh God gave Paul was the opposition to the gospel he was going to be preaching and these opposition, though from many sources, came primarily from the Judaizers of his time.

Paul and the Judaizers

Paul the apostle can only be described as a remarkable man when we realize that he confronted Judaism both in the world and in the church. Jesus had given a brief remark on the kind of suffering this man’s ministry was going to encounter when he was speaking to Ananias at Paul’s conversion (Acts 9:15-16).

From Paul’s own testimony, Paul was born a jew. He grew up and was discipled under the strictest form of Judaism – he was a Pharisee. He was taught by Gamaliel; a man of such profound knowledge of the Torah and who was held at the highest esteem by the Jewish leaders that a word from him got the release of Peter and John from the murderous grip of the Jews in Acts 4. So Paul was well taught.

Paul, however, had an encounter with Jesus on his way to Damascus, as he was persecuting Christians with authority from the Jewish leaders. He was born-again, and scripture records that immediately he began to preach Jesus whom he had been persecuting. Paul’s account in Galatian 2 shows that sometimes between the period of his conversion and the time he visited Peter and James, Paul was on a retreat in the wilderness and their God revealed the gospel of grace to him. Jesus himself had preached bits and pieces of this gospel in his earthly ministry but because he was born under the law and had to be subject to the law so as to fulfill the righteous requirement of the law for those of us who will subsequently come to have faith in Him, Jesus could not preach the gospel of grace (completely) as he would later reveal to Paul (this is the only way to explain why Paul’s message differed from Jesus’ without discussing the doctrine of dispensation). Jesus had however told the disciples that he could not teach them everything now but will reveal things to them bit by bit (John 14:26).

The gospel of grace was part of the revelation that Peter got when he had the encounter with God on the top of a house subsequent to his meeting Cornelius in Acts 10. Though what Peter understood was that the gospel had been sent to the gentiles also and was not to be confined to Jews, alone. The fact that Peter’s ministry was limited to the Jews shows that he did not completely grasp the gospel of grace like Paul did and even if he did, he could not pay the price to preach it.

But Paul paid that price. Why? Because God had given him the grace to do so (1 Corinthians 15:10).

The gospel of grace as revealed to Paul was revolutionary. The core point of it was Justification by grace through faith (alone), Ephesians 2:8-9. The implication of this gospel meant that everything Moses gave as law was defunct and obsolete Galatians 3, 2Corinthians 3. There has been a change of law from the law of sin and death to the law of Spirit of Life, Hebrew 7:12; Romans 8:2. Rather than be led by law written of tablets of stones, the believer was now to be led by the Spirit of God, Romans 8:14.

This gospel preached by Paul was against the Judaizers both in the Church and in the world. The latter part of the book of Acts gives an account of what Paul experienced in the hands of worldly Judaizers. But if his contention was with those in the world alone, it would have been a small matter. But Paul also had to contend with Judaizers in the church.

The main object of contention with the Judaizers of Paul’s time was the question of whether gentile believers were to be circumcised or not. In Acts 15:2 it is recorded that Paul and Barnabas had no small dissention with these group of people. The matter was taken to the Jerusalem church and the verdict read:

28 For it seemed good to the Holy Ghost, and to us, to lay upon you no greater burden than these necessary things; 29 That ye abstain from meats offered to idols, and from blood, and from things strangled, and from fornication: from which if ye keep yourselves, ye shall do well. Fare ye well.

The case seem to have closed there, not until again we see Paul in Galatians 2 saying that he had to withstand Peter to the face because he was acting hypocritical. What was the matter? Some Judaistic Christians had come from James, and Peter was now beginning to withdraw from the gentiles Christians who prior to those people’s coming, he had been eating with them. Following this rebuke, Paul laid down the eternal foundations upon which the gospel of grace is founded on in the book of Galatians:

[b]1. There is only one gospel: the Gospel of Grace, any other is an accursed thing. And anyone who preaches such is accursed. Galatian 1:8,9
2. Justification is by faith(Galatians 3:6-7) and the subsequent life that the believer lives must be lived by faith, Galatians 2:20. Nothing in the law could secure a man’s salvation, v.21.
3. To start in faith and then to think you can secure your salvation by doing anything else in addition to it is foolishness. Galatians 3:1-3
4. Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law. Galatians 3:13 (including the curse of not tithing in Malachi 3) and the blessing of Abraham comes to the believer by faith and not works, v.14
5. The purpose of the law was to reveal what sin is and the utter sinfulness of man that tries to keep it, and thus our need of a savior. Galatians 3:19-24
6. The law is weak and beggarly. Galatians 4: 8-9
7. God calls the believer to stand in liberty and not bondage to the law. Galatians 5:1
8. Those who seek to be justified by the law have fallen from grace. Galatians 5:4
9. Christ fulfilled the law and those of us who obey the law of love, have fulfilled the law also; for all the law is fulfilled in the law of love. Galatians 5:14
10. The call on all believers is not to keep any aspect of the law but to be led by the Spirit and bear the fruit of the Spirit; for when we do this we are not obliged to keep the law. Galatians 5:22-23
An in depth study of Galatians will reveal much more than these things enumerated above.[/b]

Bidam: i don't have the luxury of time going through silly websites..nairaland is littered with tithe threads already go thru them and learn..As for tithing by faith i answered that query in the thread opened by drummaboy..i guess you are his ally or maybe him.

UNVEILLING MODERN DAY JUDAIZERS

Jesus and the Judaizers

A cursory study through the New Testament will show that the gospel of Jesus Christ had enemies from its inception. First century Palestine was a deeply religious one and the world Jesus was born into had some individuals who had constituted themselves as religious authorities: they were the Pharisees and Sadducees – sometimes seen as teachers and scribes.

The gospel Jesus preached stood in stark contrast to that which the religious leaders of his days taught. While Jesus preached a message of inner renewal and sanctification, these men emphasized externalities. While Jesus encouraged frugality and faithfulness with money, the Pharisee and Sadducees were said to love money and encouraged people to give money to the synagogue over and above taking care of their families. While Jesus encouraged liberty amongst his followers, these people were known to tie up heaven burden on people that they could not carry themselves. While Jesus taught his disciples about the kingdom to come, these men knew nothing but earthly things. While Jesus taught with authority and in the power of the Holy Ghost, these men were clouds without rain. It is important to note that Jesus did not have kind words for these men.

Hear him in Matthew 23:

1 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, 2 Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat: 3 All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not. 4 For they bind heavy burdens and grievous to be borne, and lay them on men's shoulders; but they themselves will not move them with one of their fingers. 5 But all their works they do for to be seen of men: they make broad their phylacteries, and enlarge the borders of their garments, 6 And love the uppermost rooms at feasts, and the chief seats in the synagogues, 7 And greetings in the markets, and to be called of men, Rabbi, Rabbi. 8 But be not ye called Rabbi: for one is your Master, even Christ; and all ye are brethren. 9 And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven. 10 Neither be ye called masters: for one is your Master, even Christ. 11 But he that is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whosoever shall exalt himself shall be abased; and he that shall humble himself shall be exalted.

For those who make a case for not criticizing men of God, they should hear what Jesus said of religious leaders of his day above.

This position that Jesus took did not go without a price. The religious leaders saw to it that Jesus was killed. In fact as early as Mark 3, the Pharisees were already planning to kill Jesus:

6. And the Pharisees went forth, and straightway took counsel with the Herodians against him, how they might destroy him.

They succeded at it eventually and the Lord of glory was crucified. When Paul discussed Jesus death in 1 Corinthians 2, he called those who crucified Jesus “princes of this world”.

8 Which none of the princes of this world knew: for had they known it, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory

The phrase “princes of this world” could be interpreted “rulers of this world” – the political, religious and demonic rulers of the world. The princes of this world will include Pilate, Pharisees, Sadducees, scribes and the devil himself. In their morbid jealousy and hatred, the Pharisees and Sadducees, had teamed up with satan to bring about his demonic work.

We all know now that God was using all this to birth his eternal purpose on earth in sending a savior to mankind to redeem us from our sins. But because the religious leaders of that time were so demonic compliant, they were ready tools in the hands of the devil.

I introduced this piece with Jesus’ experience with the Judaizers of his time so that I can proceed into what Paul himself experienced with Judaizer of his own time before finally discuss the Judaizers of our time. We will see that except in very minor details, the judaistic religion has not changed since the days of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ.

TBC

Candour: Haba!! Moderator, Image only posted @ 5.30am and 12 hours after will be 5.30pm. Abi is the rule no longer 12 hours in between posts?

Anyway, we will get in our response before 7pm today.

Thanks a lot

Bidam: Yeah..they were even hiding my comments while allowing antithers to comment freely on their thread.
What do you think you will be expecting when the moderator himself is an antither.

Joagbaje: Same for my comment too. Maybe it was an unconscious biase

[size=16pt]THE AUDIENCE[/size]

To facilitate a smooth and thorough discussion we shall be laying down some guidelines and rules for our “audience”. We wanted a situation where only the discussants and the moderators shall be able to post on the thread but we have not been able to achieve that. Thus, to curtail unneccesary posting and a derailing of this thread we ask that our viewers or audience abide by these rules.The central moderator, Ajibam, shall be available to enforce the rules; which in some extreme cases will require that he hides some comments:

1. The audience are enjoined not to post on the thread at all. If they must post, it must be a relevant point to the discussion at hand. The moderators shall judge whether this post is necessary or not. If it is an unneccesary post, the moderators shall be hiding the post. We understand that we do not see it all; and it is possible that some of our audience have made an observation that has skipped our eyes, if you make reference to a matter like that; we consider that post valid and it shall remain. If not, we call on our audience to refrain from posting irrationally on this thread.

2. This thread is not open to any other debates on tithes. There are hundreds of tithe thread that can be utilized for that, including the one that birth this.

3. The discussion is meant to last some times. We are allowing 50hours maximum to cover discussion on each point a discussant is presenting. With a likelihood of 20 points to cover; we envision that this discussion will cover a maximum of about 1000 hours, which is about 2 months. So we call on our audience to forbear with us; for it is a slow, steady but sure way of reaching a goal, which is understanding the biblical tithes.

4. The audience will have opportunity to ask our discussants questions only after the discussion is concluded. Any question or comment directed at discussants shall be hidden. If an audience must say anything on this thread it must be directed at the moderator.

5. Following the discussion we trust that the Nairaland authorities shall place the thread on front page to allow people access to the information on it. And the floor will be open to any other comment.

Candour: I tender my apologies if i made our fellow discussants look bad. It sure wasn't intentional. I won't start making excuses but would want to affirm that i'm as interested in making this discussion as clean and rancour free as possible and so would not want to deliberately derail the flow, mutual respect and maturity we've all displayed so far.

Once again, i apologise

Image123: To the moderators

It seems it is our turn to be 'amazed', this time at the silence of the moderators as our fellow discussants are bravenly flouting the thread rules. Of concern is this for instance;
1. During the discussion there shall be no insults, name calling, maligning, critic of churches or ministers, or any intentional bid to make an opponent look bad. The discuss shall be done with the utmost respect of each person involved - conveying the Christian spirit of love. If anyone feels insulted, he shall be reporting the matter to the moderator; who holds the right to call the other person to order. If this is repeated by the same individual who does not take to correction, the discuss shall be suspended to allow for a replacement of that person.

Candour in RESPONSE TO RESPONSE OF REBUTTAL R2 severally disregarded and disrespected this. i'm not deceiving myself into thinking that these my brothers would obey rules, but at least we expect some measure of restraint or caution from the moderators so that the thread retains some semblance of purpose. This is not JSS 2A versus JSS 3B. That response is not a response at all, at least not to response of rebuttal R2. A response is an answer to something. When someone gives as a response, all he knows about number 1, number 2, number 3 and even outside the syllabus, and he gives it as answer to number 1. i do not think that is a response. i do not know the teacher that takes or marks that as a correct response/answer.
Candour's response contains so much insinuations, maligning, and intentional attempts to make opponents look bad. there was no respect or christianity in it. It was just all the allegations against the tithe, jumbled and bundled up. Many of the things we have not even said, but hetried to make it look like we've said them.
None of us(Image123 or Rhymejohn) have INSISTED on tithing in this thread or affirmed that Jesus endorsed tithing for the Christian thereby condemning those who don’t. On the contrary, Candour is well aware that i do not condemn anyone for not tithing. Why then is he nailing this allegations to "our brothers"?
He says we seem not to be sure who to tithe to and he is ready to reproduce them here for all to see. Where did he get this seemings? What sort of disrespect is that? i do not think the discussion should be a deliberate attempt to misconstrue other's words, or put them out of context in an attempt to score points. Those are just my thoughts anyway, i hope for something deeply christian not just superficial.
Statements like our brethren insist on going back to the bondage or Our brethren who preach the tithe statute as necessary/compulsory part of Christian worship dont regard the law of God at all. All they do is disregard it, belittle it and mock it.
i do hope the moderators do not just gloss over them or thank them for it, if indeed there are rules agreed to in the first page.

Rhymejohn should be sending in our Rebutting M2 soon. Thanks.

Enigma: Oga how now?

I'm aware of both threads and I'm trying to follow quietly though I am struggling to follow the arguments on the 'discussion' thread because both sides are working hard and the submissions can be long. I am hoping I will have time, say on a weekend, to read and follow the arguments properly. I'll try and look in on the older thread.

Zikkyy: So image123 says the motive for Christians rendering 10% of their income (a.k.a. tithing) is because they believe that the law of God is truth and should be regarded. I want to say such justification is not held by majority of tithers and such justification is held only by those that want to deceive themselves. God cannot be deceived

END

i believe am also allowed to 'end' my presentation, abi?

Enigma: A Christian does not need a name for his "church". Just like the church that met in various people's houses in the Bible, e.g. Prisca, Philemon etc, did not have any name. In fact NO church in the Bible had any name other than ---- "church"!

This is because the Christian Church is not concerned about denominations --- whether it is Roman Catholic Church or Cutlass Sharp Sharp Ministry.


@Ukuts_gp

I will just say temper zeal with wisdom and greater knowledge.

Pastor Kun: What he is trying to say in a nut shell is that rogues and charlatans like you discourage un believers from accepting christianity because of the high cost you attach to being a christian in the name of fraudulent doctrines termed as tithes, first fruits, seed sowing, partnership, e.t.c

Didyouknow: The Bible makes it clear that we must bring all firstfruits into the house of the Lord. For a newly employed person, in this instance, his firstfruit will be his first salary on the new job.

In same manner, Christians have all been commanded to bring their tithes, i.e one-tenth of their incomes, unto the Lord.

Now, for someone that just got a new job, which one takes priority? FIrstfruit or tithe? Does he pay the tithe first, then the balance as firstfruit? Or he pays the firstfruit and not bother himself abouth tithe for that month? Or he pays the firstfruit, then pays up the tithe for that month at a later time?

Theologists, and scholars of the Bible, kindly enlighten us please.

Logicboy03: Firstfruit?
Harvest?
Tithe?
Thanksgiving?
Dedication?
Bazaar?
Offering?

The amount of money collecting schemes in churches makes me to wonder if they are serving money rather than God...

“I CANNOT AFFORD TO BE A CHRISTIAN”

Romans 8:32 - He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

2 Peter 1:2 - Grace and peace be multiplied unto you through the knowledge of God, and of Jesus our Lord, 3 According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:


Evangelism remains a cardinal aspect of the Christian’s way of life. The call on us to “go ye…” by Jesus Christ cannot be over-emphasized especially in times like this when it seems the world itself is reeling from the weight of the sins of men. There is no other time in the history of the world that men need to hear the message of the saving works of Jesus Christ than now. But it seems to me that the world is tired of the gospel. An average non-Christian has heard these words “give your life to Christ…” so many times that it is making little sense to them day by day and thus there is a need to trust God for more creative ways of passing across the message of the cross to a world desperately in need of hearing it. As we endeavor to do this as Christians, we must also update ourselves about certain realities in the world today and the need for us as Christians to up our game, quit religion and avail ourselves as vessels to God to be used as his mouth piece to witness Jesus to a world in dire need of the salvation message.

[b]One reality that we Christian seem not to notice about the mindset of a non Christian is the fact that many of such people cannot afford to be Christians. I use the word “afford” to drive home the fact that the Christianity that many espouse today cost too much financially and people cannot just afford to pay for it; and the best way of doing this is just to keep away from the gospel entirely. There is a certain false teaching in the heart and life of the Christian church today that says that for one to be a good Christian such an individual must pay a tithe of his income to a Christian clergy or to the church he worships in. And for this reason, many hard working and sensible individuals who, at one time or the other had considered the Christian message have been put off and relapsed into a world of sin. There is no scripture in the whole of the bible that says for one to be a Christian or for one to be a good Christian or for one to get to heaven, such an individual must pay a tithe of his weekly or monthly income to a clergy or church. To claim such is to put a sword through the heart of the gospel Jesus called the church to propagate around the world. The eternal gospel that God called us to tell the world is that Jesus Christ died a painful death on a Roman Cross to purchase salvation for the world. In doing this, Jesus paid for all that needs to be paid for. Anyone that believes the gospel of Jesus is not required to pay anything more both to be a Christian or to remain a Christian. Man’s salvation is fully paid for by the atoning work of Jesus on the cross of Calvary. Salvation is God’s free gift to human beings and any man can partake of this salvation by only believing in Jesus as his Lord and Savior.
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This sort of conditional and false gospel tried to creep into the body of Christ in the early days of the apostles too. Christianity having been borne from a Jewish tradition was in danger of being influenced by Judaism, when some individuals began to say people could not be saved except they were circumcised first (Acts 15:1). This heresy was quickly dispelled by the apostles of Jesus when they showed the implication of Jesus’s dying on our faith: “But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ we shall be saved, even as they.” (Acts 15:11). The grace of God in the cross of Jesus is the fact that God gives salvation freely to men and no one needs to work to earn it, talk less of paying for it. Grace is a favour that is not merited neither can it be paid for. The doctrine that teaches that Christians must pay tithe to their local churches is a false doctrine that is the result of a wrong interpretation of the tithe God demanded from the Children of Israel in the Old Testament as a kind of taxation to support the religious and civil life of those people. The tithe of the Old Testament is ten percent of the agricultural produce from God’s holy land. A land that God gave to the children of Israel and He instituted the tithe from any produce off that Land to be a paid to a tribe, the levites, who had no inheritance on the land. This tithe was expected to paid once, following the harvest, and was to be given to the levithes, who in turn paid a tithe of what they received to the priests for their own upkeep. The tithe was never money, even though money existed in Old Testament times. That system of tithing is however, today, defuct and obsolete, because the church of Jesus Christ is not physical Israel and there are no levities to pay tithes to today.

[b]Jesus has paid all that needs to be paid and God is not demanding anything from anyone save for simple faith in what Jesus has done on the cross for sinful humanity. What did Jesus do? God created a good world. A world devoid of sin, sickness, poverty and every sort of ill. He created man and put man in the world he created but man sinned and lost his relationship with God. In spite of this set back, God put in motion another plan to redeem man. When Jesus was to be born, the reason for his coming was stated: He was to come and save man from his sins (Matthew 1:21). Jesus did this by living a sinless life on earth by fulfilling the righteous requirements of the laws God had given Moses. In the laws of Moses, men could pay for their sins by killing a lamb. However, Jesus, who had lived the law perfectly, became a sinless lamb, whom God set forth as a propitiation for our sin. Like in the days of Moses, God put the sins of the whole world on Jesus and He died as the sacrificial Lamb of God for the sins of all men. Jesus paid for our sins by his death on a Roman Cross. This is what Jesus did.[/b]

But the story did not end there, Jesus would however, rise up from the dead after three days in the grave, having purchased eternal salvation for all who will believe in Him. This is the crux of the gospel message and this is what satan has been attacking from all times. When a man, having heard the gospel message, is convicted of his sins and repents before God, such a man is forgiven by God and is made a new creation in Christ. Such an individual is saved and has begun a glorious journey in God that started in grace and will most certainly end in grace. Such an individual need not pay a penny to be saved, to remain saved or to be saved into God’s glorious kingdom.

To conclude this essay, I wish to offer a proper and balanced perspective on the whole matter of money in the Christian church. While God does not demand we pay tithes or offering to be members of the Church His Son purchased with His blood, God demands our love. The truth is that a genuinely born-again individual will have God’s love shed abroad in his heart. He will see life from a new perspective: he would love God and he would love human beings. It is this love God has placed in the heart of such a converted fellow that leads him to give because love always gives. This giving is not by compulsion (2Corinthians 9:7) as is falsely depicted by the doctrine of tithing, but free will. What this free will giving shall be is not a matter for any church or pastor to determine for any of God’s saints: an individual may be so blessed by God that he determines in his heart to give 10% of his income to support the church were he is being discipled. That is just fine; but what he gives is not a tithe but a tenth of his income.

Despite the position I have taken in this essay I still encourage giving to the church because of the great need for the propagation of the gospel in these last days. There is the need for more money in mission works to parts of the world that have never heard the gospel message; there is the need to take care of the weak in the church: widows, orphans, the sick, homeless, jobless, etc. And there is the need to minister our physical blessings to our Pastors, as they minister spiritual things to us. All of these needs in church can be adequately taken care of by graceful, sacrificial, free willed offering; without the need to impose the false burden of tithe paying on the flock of God.

The message of this essay is that salvation is free: fully paid for by the death of Jesus on the cross. We cannot purchase salvation by good works, circumcision or by tithing. God is calling on every person who is not a Christian to re consider the gospel message, not in the light of the false one that the demands money from you but in the light of the true gospel that says God does not desire a penny from you; rather, God desires you. God has fully paid for your salvation in Christ Jesus and you need not pay anything to receive it or to keep it. Every human being created by God can afford to be a Christian because salvation in Jesus Christ is free!

1. I shall be writing a comprehensive essay on why Tithing Is Not An Obligation For The New Testament Christian in the very near future. In that essay, I shall be looking at all the scripture were the word tithe or tenth is mentioned in the bible with the hope of driving home the lesson that tithing is not required of Christians today.