₦airaland Forum

Hello Vowiski
Why have we not seen you @ the religion section

I know its not your usual place but drop a comment once or twice.

Sorry, Mod, for detailing thread

*runs away. quick*

Vowiski and I came to NL to talk about how we stopped tithing. Both of our threads ran pages.

I know he is mostly at the IT section but I miss his post Here.

So, if U ever see this, Vowiski, how are U and I hope U are doing well, post tithing?

Cheers!

It is here on the internet I have come across those who question Pau's teachings.

Well, I hold to the inerrancy of the scripture. God's word may have been authored by men but certainly inspired by the Holy Spirit.

Paul does not contradict Jesus. To understand scriptures we must have spirit filled and gifted teachers to teach us.

Those who create the confusion we have today are students of false teachers, for which the prosperity gospellers, the holiness legalistic, New Agers and the motivational preachers are chief culprits.

Now even if U do not agree with my position so far, we cannot deny the sovereignty of God. God's sovereignty is shown both in the OT and the NT.

Now nothing denies the sovereign work of God as much as the impression that law advocates give that it is our works that will save us.

Jesus taught God's sovereignty, Matthew 6 and John 6, but Paul explained it further when he discusses the Justification of the believer Romans 1:16,17; 3:19-31. And even if human effort will do anything for man, it cannot exceed what that man can do in this life. It would be foolhardy to think that man's effort can gain entrance into God's kingdom.

My point: God is able save; sanctify and glorify the one he saves. The Pauline gospel show that a sovereign God can do everything in regards to our salvation journey.

The fear of Ihedinobi, Alwaystrue, Danfo and the rest is that these teaching on grace will lead to lawlessness. In the days of Luther, following the discoveries of Paul writing, there was Antimoniansim - no law. Paul himself was accused of encouraging lawlessness.

The point is God is sufficient to deal with the man he has called into fellowship with himself, without the need for Moses laws, Church laws or our laws. The Holy Spirit deals with every man he has saved; he is able to sanctity them and glorify them without the help of law advocates.

The NT introduces a new kind of relation with God: FREEDOM! Every one of us is free to be led by God in the Christian life he has called us into.

He does not need us to be circumcised, keep the Sabbath, pay tithe, or do anything 'we think' we must do to make heaven. The laws that we must keep are within us, btw us and our God. And the last day will determine those who have kept God's laws.

For now, lets free God's people to walk this path of grace.

@Danfo

There is no contradiction btw Jesus and Paul. Anyone who gives U the impression that the truth of the Bible is simple and easy to understand is lying: these truth can only be spiritually discerned, after the word had been rightly divided.

Jesus operated under the law but he minister but to the Jews and to the coming gentile church. Jesus made it clear that much of His message will come by the Spirit of God, after his death. Now, whether it is Jesus or Paul, the end product must be good works if not there had been no new birth.

However, Paul is emphasized by Bible teachers bc he was the apostle to the gentiles; His message was crafted for the Church age, following the end of the law.

The message of Paul emphasized the finished work of the cross and faith in it for salvation. But we see from Gal 5:22 that the end of it all must be love and good works.

Paul does not contradict Jesus at all, rather Paul shed greater light on Jesus' teaching following the cross.

Goshen360: Well, I'm lost in this thread due to time and how busy I am now. Anyway, even the title of the OP says the way of mosaic law is different from the way of Grace and truth. How do I mean? The conjunction "BUT" shows a contrast and\or negative\opposite statement.

The law was given by Moses BUT Grace and truth came by Jesus Christ. Law and Grace\truth don't mix. Mark 2:22

Exactly, the OP shoots himself in the leg with the title to his own thread

Thank U RanchOwner for the excellent contribution

One would expect this to end the argument but lo and behold it may just as well start another

And this gospel of grace we are called to preach is so incredibly simple that one marvels at how much Satan distorts it in the minds of men.

1. Christ died for the sins of all men
2. We are justified by grace through faith by simply trusting in the work of the cross
3. In Jesus cross, we have justification, sanctification and glorifcation
4. There is a sovereign work of God in our sanctification, Justification and glorifcation and we must trust God to use life experience to bring them to pass in us
5. We are sealed with the blessing of the Holy Spirit as down payment for our salvation.
6. We have Jesus always with us: ever making intercession for us.
7. We have a sure kingdom to look forward to

These, and more, are the truth the apostles lived and died for!

Not prosperity, or healing, or sign and wonders, or any of these demonic manifestations in the name of gospel teaching.

The gospel is simple: it is good news of God's grace to sinful and helpless man.

The second implication of wrong biblical understanding is the pouring of a generation of biblical illiterates. Why is that it is so difficult to educate these neo-Judaizers on NL? They have been wrongly taught.

In the late 19th century into the 20 century, it became common to see young Christian people opt for missionary work in Europe and America. They had role models in the likes of Hudson Taylor, etc. That is what led to the coming of Mary Slessor, etc.

Who are our role models today? What are the aspirations of young Christian folks today? To build of big church. To buy jet. To be stupoendously wealthy. To make it. To be rich and prosperous.

And we say there is nothing wrong with the gospel we preach?

How many of the mission works I mentioned were sponsored by tithes and firstfruit? Read the biographies and autographs of these men and women and locate one place they talked of tithe, firstfruit, prophet offering/seed, etc.

You cannot find one.

@Ayoku

I am not too bothered about how people interprete scripture. What I am concerned about is the result of their interpretation.

Take for example, our country, Nigeria. Nigeria is where she is bc of the gospel being proclaimed from our pulpits. Nigeria has been ruled by Christians in 12 and a half yrs since military rule. Pentecostal pastors have had such influence on Aso Rock but what do we see? Presidents who are detached from the reality on ground. Presidents seeking to perpetuate themselves in office. Presidents using CAN president and Mr CAN President smelling away with a Jet. etc.

They do these things bc they do not live nor preach the gospel Christ proclaimed, When Paul preached it, he said he was concerned for the poor.

What makes up this gospel they preach
1. Misunderstanding the law and instituting the fraudulent tithe, firstfruit, etc.
2. Bondage to legalism via holiness teachings
3. Bondage to fear via visions of hell
4. etc.

@Alwaystrue
No insult intended. If any implied, my apologies are hereby presented.

Paul who taught that there are no male or female recognized a particular constitution of women and so instructed that women should not teach men. That scripture can be found in one of the letters to Timothy.

Nonetheless, it's my prejudice...

The gospel as clearly enunciated by Paul, and suggested by the OP, is glorious in itself and need no addition. In our bid to find security in what we do, or police other Christians to abide by our own standard of righteousness, or in our inability to comprehend the awesome holiness of God and the utter sinfulness of even the born again man, etc, we enact a gospel that is closely tagged along with Moses.

This cherished position of ours looks so good that we cannot comprehend a gospel that has done it all and that requires we do nothing to enjoy God's grace.

Our position is never to allow anything that will make the grace Of God in vain.

I advise demi and debosky to open a new thread for this latter debate

I do not expect U both to turn against each other like this. The point of contention that is NEEDFUL here is to stop the mouths of these Judaizers and not for two people who support the gospel of grace to begin a debate on an inconsequential issue as whether there are one or two gospels.

Regardless of the no. the gospel is mighty to save and it is what we are trying to keep intact from being altered by the Judaizers.

Pls let's know our priority here.

Or may be this inability to comprehend has something to do with age.

Maybe, just a suggestion though... maybe along with stating our anonymous names and sex, we should also state our year of birth.

Because then we would understand why some say what they say, in spite of well documented evidence.

I, for one, tithed for years with the basis for tithing to be: I am following Abraham and my tithe is worship of God and the church could make use of some finances. I never tithed based on Mosaic laws.

But when I heard sound and opposing views, like Abraham tithed only once and there is no evidence that God commanded him to do so, I ditched the practise.

So why this long discusses?

I tire O!

1. It is true that most of the discuss on the place of law and grace borders on whether to tithe or not. But in the past it also bordered on whether women could cover hair or not; whether believers could loose their salvation or not; whether we could attend church on Sunday or Saturday. That is no end to contention with Judaizers.

2. To surmise that those who argue against tithing are angry people is to betray ignorance of scriptures. Jesus was not dancing and singing when he wiped men from the temple neither was Paul rejoicing when he wrote Galatians. No body in his right mind should be happy about the state of the church today.

3. I am particularly not good at arguing back and forth. I find my niche in stating a fact and leaving it at that. I leave my Masters Boomark, Zikky, Christemmbassey, Goshen, Ayoku, Frosbel, etc, to do that. Those men have stuffs in them and rather than waste time arguing, I advice you listen to them.

@Alwaystrue
This may be a personal prejudice but I could find NT scriptures to back it up, non-theless, I think the world of theological discuss and preaching is spiritual warfare, similar to physical warfare, a situation God has not particularly designed women to trive in. I mean your constitution with its tendency towards emotionalism and looking at issues devoid of rationalism, may be obscuring your ability to comprehend the issues on hand.

As for the rest, who choose the path of neo-Judaism, such could not be divorced from male ego and stubbornness.

They are just my deduction from reading your post and are very arguable.

I dare anyone who says the NT believer of this day must tithe to read this book.

If you come off it without a changed mindset, then there is no hope...

Haven' read up to chapter six, I find the writing lucid and very un offensive. No minister's name is mentioned. All the argument is straight from the bible.

The core thesis insists that the NT paradigm is bringing Christians to give God 100% of what they own and their lives with it, and not just a misery 10%.

Pls, folks, read the online book and report your finding here.

Well done Frosbel. Returned with a bang!

frosbel: Read online book by Clicking HERE

I am already reading the book ONLINE and hope to do so WORD for WORD

@RanchOwner
Pls who is the author of the article you put up and is there a web link it can be located on?

I found it very enlightening

1. The debate has been btw those who think that the Laws of Moses still apply to Christians today and those who say it does not: ie, those who say the law to follow today is the Law of Spirit and Life; not just those who say there is law and those who Say there is no law. The difference has been in what the law really is.

2. The analogy regarding music is wonderful and I agree that little point of differences are not worth pursuing; but if U are out to play music on stage and the other fellows wish to play baseball, will there not be some conflict? Paul commands Timothy to take heed to his doctrine for by it he would both save himself and his hearers. Some teachings, no matter how Christian, will damn a listener. These are the reason for our contention, Jude 3.

Nonetheless the thread is a welcome development and I, like U, wish that most discuss will be civil and edifying.

FALSE PROPHETS ARE GOD'S JUDGEMENT ON OUR LUST - DEMI

The above should be placed on billboard on every corner of this country!

@Ayoku,
I tell you, flesh and blood did not reveal this to you but from heaven. I read re-read, i went to study this again and realised that indeed your position is very true. What i mean is that I now fully understand what the transfiguration meant by your few words up there. Thank you so much.

Paul instructs that we should rightly divide the word of truth.

The doctrines that Paul taught were so sublime that even Peter said that they were difficult to understand; nevertheless Paul place the apostolic authority on his teachings and that of the other apostles as the all time doctrinal position of the church and no one should add or subtract from them.

When Jesus came, his ministry was wholly to the lost sheep of God's kingdom - the Jews. He made no pretense about this. He rarely ministered to the gentiles but the fact that his ministry to the gentiles are recorded in scripture shows to us that God would be calling the gentiles to His kingdom in the days to come. But note JESUS WAS SENT WHOLELY TO THE JEWS.

Also, Jesus messages must be classified into messages to three groups of people which could found in three distinct DISPENSATIONS. The first will be to the Jews who were under the law, just as He, Jesus, was under the law at his first advent. The second one is his message to the Church, you find these mostly in John 14-17. The last is eschatological, speaking of the millennium to come and some of these messages will be found in Matthew 5-7, sermon on the mount and Matthew 24.

Recognizing this is the only way to RIGHTLY DIVIDE the word of truth: knowing whom to apportion which aspect of scripture to. Thus when we see his admonition in Matthew 23:23 we see clearly a word to the Pharisee, the Jews of Jesus' time. Jesus could not condemn the tithe in that scripture because he would have broken the law he was called to fulfill. But from that statement we see, in addition to the fact that the statement was directed to Jews, that the tithe he referred to was: 1. Agricultural products. 2. Was not as important as Mercy, Judgment and Faith. The question here to the tithe advocators is this 1. The tithe you pay are they on agricultural, including husbandry, products? 2. The churches that advocate the tithe: which one is more important to them - money, ie tithe, or mercy - that is looking after the poor? That is just along the line, this discuss is not on tithe.

HOWEVER, Paul's teachings starting from the Acts of the Apostle, through Romans and possibly Hebrews, were messages to the church. R B Thieme likes to call it the doctrine for the church age. That message did not even start with Paul! Rather we could say it started with Peter's vision in Acts 10 were God told him not to call what God has sanctified defiled. From then on the mystery of the gospel was gradually revealed: stating that the gospel of Jesus was not a message for the Jews alone but the gentiles was inclusive. Paul, the apostle to the gentiles, had a better understanding into this gospel, which he would later call the gospel of grace.

That gospel clearly shows that the law, given through Moses, has been abolished in the cross of Jesus. It was so distinct a message that Paul's displeasure was clearly shown in the book of Galatians at people who were trying to distort it by either forcing the gentiles to keep Moses' laws, or mix the law with grace (something Peter was guilty of and received a resounding rebuke from Paul) or did not have understanding of either and could be easily deceived by the Judaizers of his time. His position on the law was clear: It is either you keep the whole law (Moses) or non at all (Christ); you could not do it in part (And anyone who commands anybody to PAY tithe is obeying Moses' law); He even went as far as saying anyone who does keep a part of the law has broken the whole law and has fallen from grace. I do not know how the message will sound for those paying tithe: that the very act has displaced you from the grace of God.

So, I envy the amicable position that Alwaystrue and Ayoku have taken. It is simply agreeing to disagree for the sake of peace. But may we not manufacture a peace that Jesus has not made. Acts 15 records that Paul and Barnabas had no small dispute with the Judaizers of those days; it is not out of place for the dispute to continue in our time for God's people to be free.

The law is abolished in Jesus cross; we are free to be led of His Spirit to obey the law of Spirit of Life etched on the tablets of our hearts; this is what will lead to gospel perfection; but even within that perfection we must still rest our faith on the perfect righteousness of Jesus Christ, who died that we might live. I refuse to make the grace given to us through the cross of Jesus in vain.

I reserve this space for my dear mother Mrs Henrietta Temilola Yesufu.

Its been seven yrs this April 25

I love you Mum and God bless the OP for this idea

^In other words you move the argument to a new thread: May I suggest possible titles

Ihedinobi vs. Debosky
TITHE: the Final Showdown down
The Last Argument on Tithe in NL
To tithe or Not To Tithe: Ihedinobi vs. Debosky

Etc

Lol!!!

I look fwd to it and U may return here to inform those following these thread that argument don' Change address!

^It is understood

Returning to the subject of Easy Believism

1. Salvation is the sovereign work of God on a man's heart. God is able to save, to keep safe and to save to the uttermost
2. Salvation is not passive assent to some repeated words: it is understanding the grace of God, His love and Power. It is repentance and submission to Jesus Lordship.
3. When a man is saved, he is a new creation. You don't tell him this is sin: He is convicted of sin, so he knows it and has grace to keep away from sin.
4. The laws of God are inscribed on his heart. He need not anyone tell him what to do, He knows what to do.
5. Salvation is by grace through faith; it is not adherence to some do's and don'ts. It is not tithing, circumcision, going to church, fasting, prayer or reading the word.
6. Salvation is to be led of God Spirit to please him which may involve fasting, prayer and the word, as Ayoku has stated in the OP.
7. Salvation is not of works but of faith (only, according to Martin Luther).

That is why despite what the OP wrote, an alwaystrue will still come here and say the ten commandments were the laws of God not the Laws of Moses - as it should rightly be called. If it is the Law of God, why did John 1 say 'the law was given through Moses; but grace and truth came with Jesus Christ.

As it has been said here for hundreds of times, the OT did not designate the laws as Moral, ceremonial, law of God, etc. Everything in the OT is the law of Moses and has been abolished in Jesus Cross.

The only law left for the believer is the Law of Spirit of Life: the Law of Christ that calls us to love. It is of the Spirit bc with his help we would reach perfection. It is of life bc there is no condemnation for anyone under it. Its not a law of sin and death; it of LIFE, so there is no sin in it that leads to death. It is of love, bearing the Spirit's Fruit; under which there is no law.

If U cannot comprehend this, there nothing to say afterwards.

While not adding to what Ayoku has written, I wish to state that a lot is wrong with the entry point for many so called believers. I mean many Christians have never been born again bc of the phenomenum some call EASY BELIEVISM.

It is that act that is common with a lot of 'Christians' bc they have been told to simply 'give their life to Christ'. I ask such folks: has Christ given his own life to you? The process of coming to Faith in Jesus is something that must be wholly revisited if not we would continue to have people come into the Christian faith, without the true seed of God in them. Such individuals enact a religion that is wholly based on works and devoid of the life of the Spirit. Some of them you find here arguing blindly for adherence to the laws of Moses, only that they do not have understanding nor do they have capacity to receive the Law of the Spirit of Life.
(To be continued)

^Thank you Ayokun for this thread

christemmbassey: @Drumaboy, Ay777,Always true., i want us to take a closer look at working in the spirit and the manifestation of God's glory, Ay777 mentioned, prayer, fasting and studying the word as 'must dos' for manifestation of the glory, i think this negates our undastanding of grace, for us to think, bc we were able to do this and that bring glory ndthink is double speak if we still subscribe to grace. Now this is my tots 1. Everything we have and every manifestation of glory is a gift and of grace,.1cor12:7-11, 2Peter1:2-3. Yes, we must pray, QEAD/STUDY the word and fast, but the manifestation of God's glory is still by his grace. .while discusing this, let us also consider what it means to be born again. Peace.

I agree with the bolded; and what Ayokun had suggested, Prayer, Fasting and Word study, does not remove from the grace of God at all.

If Bidam, Alwaystrue or any of these law advocators had suggested it, I would have thrown it into the gutters long time ago. But for someone who understands the grace of God that gives us perfect righteousness and then tells us to go unto perfection, ie sanctification, to say suggest those three, I think it is worth listening to.

I am still convinced that when Ayokun, ably supported by another Master here, Goshen, begin the discuss on Walking in the Spirit, entering perfection, I believe the whole argument will end, and we all will just as well realize that we were saying the same thing from various perspectives.

The fear of these neo-judaizers is that we are advocating a lawless kind of Christianity, that enthrones liberty, etc, and that will inevitably lead to sin. But that cannot be true.

I call upon Ayokun to begin the thread and let's all shift there. Hopefully by the end of the discuss on perfection (product of which I trust God to put into practical steps in my own walk with God), the question on Tithing, Sabbath and other laws that these neo-judaizers love so much will find their proper place.

@Nora
There are no new tricks in Satan's bag. As it was in Luther's days, so also do we find today.

Welcome back Frosbel!

Thank you again Ayokun on that one. I look forward to your expose.

Fasting, for me, is not an interesting exercise but I see now that it cannot be avoided.