₦airaland Forum

Here we go again: confusing grace with the Law. Oyo zoe answer the question:
1. Did Jesus inaugurate a priestly order same way Moses did? Last I checked we are all brethren and have been made kings and priests unto our God
2. So we should tithe bc it preceded the law. Must we also circumcise our male sons on the 8th day?
3. Jesus did not upgrade the law, as you said. He FULFILLED it. So there is no trend or principle of law we must fulfill today
4. Why are you practising only one of the three types of tithing in the OT?

I am sorry to recommend this for the upteenth time but I refer you to a wonderful scriptural analysis on the tithe on www.tithing101.com, and request U let us know what U think after reading it.

.

There is such a thing as a Religious Spirit. That is what the above quote shows. Paul in Colosians 2:23ff said 'Such regulations indeed have an appearance of wisdom, with their self imposed worship, their false humility, and their harsh treatment of the body, BUT THEY LACK ANY VALUE IN RESTRAINING SENSUAL INDULGENCE' In other words, the religious spirit would make you find security in what you do for God and not what he has done for you(grace) - which leads to His Spirit working in us and reforming our Character. For bearing the fruits of the spirit is all the law that the NT Christian is called to keep.
Not tithing, not going to church, not deliverances, not revival programming... etc but bearing his fruits. Which the Spirit does through us and not via religious duties as these thing cannot restrain sin - sensual indulgences.
So whether you pay your tithe or not, how does that help you become a better, holy, fruit bearing person.

I reside in Ibadan and I desire to fellowship in a gospel church. I request folks on this forum who know Ibadan city well to recommend one for my family and I to worship in.
I however request that the church abide by these doctrines of faith

1. Belief in the doctrine of the Lordship of Christ: The Trinity.
2. That the church believes in the doctrine of salvation by grace alone through faith (upholding the tradition of the Reformation).
3. Belief and practice of the various gifting of the Holy Spirit.
4. Not a tithe collecting church but one that believes in free will offering.
5. This church maybe orthodox or new generation.
6. A family church with a love for the brethren and a sincere commitment to help the poor.
7. A church that believes in the inerrancy of the bible and bases its actions on the bible.

I appreciate your suggestions ahead of time. Thanks.

It seem the Pentecostal churches with their dependence on progressive revelation or leading of Spirit, despise this. But what they are doing is actually denying the inerrancy of scripture and making their people susceptible to every wind of doctrine.
@ Okey, your position is debatable at best and controversial at worst. I want to assume U do not mean it

[quote
author=Pastor Kun]Sorry I didn't get any email from you. Although I got a notification
from NL recently that I had two PMs, I never saw any mail in my mail
box. You can try reaching me directly via unclekuns@yahoo.com[/quote]I sent the other message to a wrong address. I have sent another to the above email now.

Tobe
Your statement offers little light to the issue

^^^Hello Pastor Kun. Will you pls reply the email I sent to you.

Did that scripture say 10%? I believe it means giving of a free volition; and not on a compulsion to tithe.
And the word there is firstfruit not tithe!

I visited a website www.acts1711daily.com and did not find it difficult to understand the ideology of the owner as he had a statement of faith clearly stated there.
Why do churches these days, particularly Pentecostal ones, do not deem it fit to publish their statement of faith. This would have made me avoid the mistake of joining a wrong church some years ago. And if indeed I do join, knowing the statement of faith would have helped me know my boundaries.
Or is a statement of faith not important?

Good work Chasong
Looking fwd to the rest of the expose
By the grace Jesus church will know liberty from every kind of bondage

aceTS: i was informed all you do is click on my username.it'll take you to my profile. Look for the link about sending email to me. Click on it.

I have done that. Thanks.

Man I am interested. Can you get to me pls? How do U PM?

The Bible commands Xtians to know how to possess their vessels in sanctification and holiness. Believe me conquering sexual sin is a life long work even after marriage. If you succeded as a single chances are U will succeded married.
Knowing how to possess ur vessels is peculiar to U and ur situation. It may mean not going to female hostel at all, not staring at ladies, discipline, fasting, prayers, etc.

akin Emma
Scripture commands you to study to show yourself approved, a workman that need not be ashamed RIGHTLY DIVIDING the word of truth.
Learn to divide the word of God: know which one applies to you under the NT and the one that applies to OT. The NT testament does not command anyone to tithe. On the other hand the robbers and thieves and you and your pastors who have turned the house of God to a den of thieves. We are commanded to give without compulsion
in the NT. period!

OP
Pastor Kun has given the answer you seek. Its idol worship. Period!

TITHING
This section helped me to come to the conclusion on tithing. Particularly the web site www.tithin101.com

Outside that, religious section tends to be too contentious and difficult to follow sound arguments.

[quote author=uchkochi]THE POWER TO GET WEALTH.

A very apt topic. Very much like the kind of topic New Agers like yourself and your teachers proclaim about. Do you know anyother thing else?

Deuteronomy 8:18 says; FOR YOU SHALL REMEMBER THE LORD YOUR GOD, FOR IT IS HE THAT GIVES YOU THE POWER TO GET WEALTH...

Despite the fact that scripture is the old testament, it is true it is God that gives us power to get wealth. But do you see any such promise in the NT? The closest to it is Matthew 6, where Jesus said seek first the kingdom and other things shall be added. Now what you and your teachers seeks is other things while you use the kingdom as your springboard.

Beloved, there is a power to get wealth and it resides only with God. He is the owner of the earth, the silver and the gold. Wealth does not include only money, but health, protection, peace, joy, honour, wisdom and eternal life. What is the power to get wealth.

Very Characteristic of you all.

To remember the LORD is to give HIM ten percent of what comes into your life as increase.

And God told you that the way to remember him is to give tithe. Quite ingenious. You could not see anything else in that scripture than that. Well, it makes sense. When you see God's word via the lens of glasses tinted with dollars signs, how would you not read dollars into every line of the bible?

Giving God 10 percent multiplies the remaining 90 percent that it results in wealth. You also get other fringe benefits like divine health, divine provision, protection, divine ideas and many other things that money cannot buy.

But why is it that many don't pay tithe, even those that pay it don't pay it regularly and correctly, and some pay it but with the wrong attitude. The first thing you must know about tithing that will give you grace to pay it no matter the amount is to understand that it is not your own. If your receive 10,000; do not see the complete 10,000 as your's, 9000 belongs to you while 1000 belongs to God. Do not calculate the tithe as your money, that is where many people miss it. Malachi 3:10, Matthew 23:23.

You may be asking, why tithe? God does not need our money but we need His continual blessing. Whatever God gives you, He gave you less 10 percent. If He gave you 5000, He actually gave you 4500 expecting you to put 500 into His work here on earth through churches and ministries that feed you spiritually. With this understanding, tithing becomes a thing of Joy because God loves a cheerful giver. The more you are committed to tithing, the more God brings opportunities your way to make more money so that more money will be used for His work here on earth. Receive grace to tithe your way up in the ladder of prosperity in Jesus name. BB PIN IS 2739F228[/quouyte]

The rest of the post is the usual prosperity deceivers rants. Unfortunately, you guys don't change your message. The same old lines. Well I invite you to these threads to see how your fellow pro-tithers have been floored through sound scriptural reasoning and how God's people are being saved from the hands of wolves like yourself who are bent on turning the house of the Lord to a den of theives.
https://www.nairaland.com/1239719/questions-frosbel-tithing
https://www.nairaland.com/1253965/implication-tithing
With the picture you posted on your profile, it is so obvious you are looking for disciples. You have come to the wrong place. I advice you find a better job to do!

CHURCH HISTORY OF TITHING

A study of church history will show that at some point, probably around the year 600, the churches brought back the teaching of tithing, but only as voluntary giving, and still just on the crops, herds, and flocks, right out of the Old Testament. Since they didn't teach it as a "biblical tithe," they were able to change the rules to make it fit the needs of the church. By the middle of the 13th century, the Church's claim to tithes was extended to include the poultry of the yard and the cattle of the stall, to the catch of fish and the game of the forests. Had tithing in the Old Testament been on everything as some have claimed, there would have been no need to expand the definition.

My research shows that tithing was first taught and collected by churches in the United States during the second half of the 1800s. Had tithing always been required, why was it not until the late 1800s that the churches in the United States started collecting tithes? And even then, the teaching of tithing was not consistent between churches. It wasn't until recent years that churches started teaching that you tithe on your income, or gross income.

My research shows that during the late 1800s some churches taught that men were to tithe a larger amount than women, that no tithing was required for those under the age of 18, and once you reached the age of 65 you no longer were required to tithe. At times tithing was based on the value of property owned. Those who didn't own property didn't tithe. They gave freewill offerings. In one case I found the church council members voted to change tithing to income because it would bring in twice as much money. The problem is, all this was taught as biblical.

In many cases, if not most, today's tithing teacher is merely teaching was he/she was taught. Many who later do their own in-depth research have repented and no longer teach that tithing is required today.

For those interested in the history the Christian church, you may want to read the book, HISTORY OF THE CHRISTIAN CHURCH by Philip Schaff

The above I got from Gary Arnold's website. The main point of the gist is that tithe paying is not orthodox.
Now let me relate a story that I believe will lend credence still to this argument. Close to two years ago I was listening Pastor Tunde Bakare via the internet. And he preached on the question of Firstfruit. The trust of the message was that firstfruit was biblical. He used examples from the old testament mainly. His explanation was less draconian than most churches. While they collect firstfruit every January. He said the firstfruit was your first pay or any other increase on your pay or salary.
That same week my Pastor here in Ibadan said he didnt believe there was any such thing as a firstfruit. He said the firstfruit in the NT was the tithe.
From the above I was convinced that the issue bordered on interpretation of scripture. So I chose the interpretation of my Ibadan Pastor and only paid tithe until last month. In my discourse in the last thread I opened someone mentioned that Jesus is our firstfruit (1Corinthians). Now it is apparent that if my Ibadan Pastor had lived in the early 20th century, when tithing was begining to gain grounds, same way firstfruit has begun to gain ground in the early 21st century, he himself would have rejected the tithe offering. But it is accepted today, not bc it is scriptural but bc it is the usual practice. With time, firstfruit giving will become a usual thing churches practice, and anyone who doesnt give it will be seen as disobeying God.
My point is that we do not decide to do something based on what is usual or popular in our local assemblies. Rather we decide on our actions based on our understanding of scriptures. For God's laws for the NT christian are written on the heart.

Now that is the issue: there is no right reason to pay the tithe.
Jesus did not mince words when he said men would either worship God or Mammon. Where do we get the example of paying tithe or collecting from? Is Jesus our ultimate example? Did he pay or collect tithe? If He did he would have broken the law and sinned. Did the apostle collect tithe? How come in all his teaching on giving, Paul 'forgot' to mention the tithe?
The tithe is deception. Well calculated to deceive the ordinary people. But money is spirit. You cannot enthrone money this way in church and allow God's Spirit to move and save.
The worst is still the use of the word PAY.It shows that it has been turned into an obligation, following mosaic laws. That way those who pay tithe have fallen from grace. They cannot enjoy God's power as they should.
That is my point!

@Strykt
I apologise for that referral to Catholics. I am sorry about it. Indeed it is derailing the thread but I honestly referred this thread to those who tithe and those who don't especially in Pentecostal circle. You have been very courteous in your responses so far; there was no need for that attack on Catholics, their belief in Mary or celibacy. I however still invite U to the debate and the website, I believe, will answer your questions on tithing, like it did mine.

Strykt
U are Roman Catholic. Were do start from with U? Is it Mary or Celibacy? I refer U to Frosbel. He seems to be doing a better job with Catholic. I limit myself to my domain: Pentecostalism.

I pasted a thought on my FB page where I said that neither Jesus nor the apostles made altar calls but they witnessed converts in thousands. Why is it that with all our altar calling and profession of Christianity, Christianity is said to be one mile wide in Africa but just an inch deep? Answer: the gospel. The holy spirit saves by the preached word. If this word is compromised with money, again tithing, there is no power. We then resort to altar calls but the converts only profess but are not truly saved!

Mr Stykt
It is apparent to me that you're bent on detailing the thread but it is understandable: YOU PAY TITHE. Thus I do not expect you to understand bc all the questions U have asked are answered either on my post or the website I referred to.
Now Satan has not changed. He confused the first generation Christians with this issue of balancing law with grace so much so that Peter and Barnanabas were almost deceived; Gal 2. Why not U?
My premise remains the Church, particularly the Nigerian church has derailed bc it has been deceived by prosperity. Chief among them the culprit of tithing. This nation and its people can only be saved when she returns to the true gospel.

striktlymi: Good day Dboy,

I am quite curious about why you believe that tithing is wrong?

In my opinion, I don't think anyone who decides to give tithe of his/her own free will does any wrong by God's standards. I am not an advocate of the tithe thingy but really when I read about arguments for or against it, I can't help but ask why exactly would those who are against it say it is wrong when it is left to the decision maker to determine what he or she does with his/her money.

A careful study of scriptures, expecially the NT, shows that somethings are minor doctrine. Romans 14 gives an example of that and that is where Joagbaje qouted from. however, there some doctrines that are so important that to teach or not teach them will determine whether your congregation will be saved or not. So is tithing or not tithing an important doctrine. I believe yes
On the surface, we can say why not leave everyone to do as they are persuaded but on the real stage we realize that tithing as taught in the church today may determine whether or not the true gospel that saves men will be preached or we will end up with a money gospel, a false gospel.
Paul in his letter to the Galatians said that anyone who allows himself to be circumcized (that is obey the law) has fallen from grace; he said keeping one bit of the law, should lead keeping the entire law. We cannot do one part of the law and keep the other. The only solution to this is to leave the law as it is and come under the gospel of grace and not obey the law of Moses, that includes tithing.
Now I am not interested in the tithe or not tithe argument. Other threads have done a better job. For those who are really intent on a sound academic study on the falsehood of tithing I refer them to Gary J Arnold's work on www.tithing101.com. My point here is that there is a FRUIT of the gospel that is being proclaimed today; this gospel does not save sinners; all it does is make people captive to a religion of money: give God this and expect that; a vast majority of the people in this churches do not know the Lord bc they have not been taught the true gospel. It is a gospel of BLESSINGS: GET, GET, GET, GET, AND GET, unending.
Thus I wish to invite folks to contribute their experience with this false gospel and reveal for what it is.
For years I agonized over why there was such lack of power in these churches, but the answer is not far fetch: a resort to the practice of law and grace at the same time. That is being sponsored by tithe collection, which is illegal at best and demonic at worst.
That is the reason for my being AGAINST tithing. I just wish the thread is not derailed by the pro tithers who have a penchant for leaving the main issue and pursuing little things.

fubbyy: I can't ask my pastor this question because I know he will be so disappointed in me for being a pool player

My last week number tied , though the promoter delayed me and I was paid yesterday

And I believe in tithe but always have this taught that pool's money is not so clean in the sight of the lord, I don't know if am right

So my question is can I pay my tithe from this money?

Pls comment let me know what's up b4 I blow it all

This post, were a pool player thinks himself obliged to pay tithe put paid to the argument on tihing. If tithing under the time of grace was truly from God, then this gentleman should not feel "something" against his wanting to tithe. He should be led to tithe authomatically.
This brings us to the point where we argue that those who support the tithe are mixing law with grace. The religion Jesus died for us to practice is not a religion of do this; dont do that. It is a religion where men are led by God's Spirit. A Christian should never be led to play pool, talk less of paying a tithe on what he won.
But when Christians are taught to PAY tithe. Then the theif can pay a tithe on what he stole and satisfy his coisnscience that he has given God his own; the harlot the same thing and then the pool player.
Christianity is a religion of common sense, or better still, sanctified common sense, where we make our decisions, influenced by gospel truth of grace and trust God to live witht the consequences. Good or bad. Now for Mr pool player. You can win today and tomorrow, but what if in the hysteria of winning you decide to invest all your life saving and you loose. The consequence will be disastrous.

So the answer is not whether to tithe or not( a return to religion and the law) but do you know God's holy spirit? Will He lead you to play pool? If you win, how much will he have you to give out of a free will without having to resort to percentages?
I, for one, will not be led to play pool. And if I earn or am given some money, I will not tithe it but trust God to show me how to use it (including giving): based on sanctified common sense, that we all should have, as Christians, under a system of grace.

Seun: You should not pay tithes with any kind of money.
It's an Old Testament practice and the tithes were not paid with money.
Also, instead of blowing all the money, you should invest it. See www.nairaland.com/investment

I am suprised to see that Seun is also an authority on tithing. from people's comment here, Seun, I thought you were atheist.