₦airaland Forum

@Ayokun
Let us assume that most readers of this thread have understood the grace doctrine;
Question: How then do we move unto perfection, still in the light of the grace of God?

My assumption is an ASSUMPTION, because it would take the GRACE of God for those Judaizers to 'get it' in this life.

demi
Wonderful piece
I will share it ASAP on my Facebook page

For me, Ayokun OP is a sort of middle line btw Goshen and the likes of Bidam
He talks about a righteousness as a gift of grace, then he talks of a walk to perfection. Pray, is that not scripture?!

But alas, the unteachable will remain so.

Gbile Akaani, many yrs ago, spoke of potential difference, PD. That for an audience to receive from a teacher, there must be a PD btw them so that knowledge can flow, same way U have it in electricity. Because, NL offers anonymity we don't know who each other and so cannot appreciate PD. But someone who with discernment should be able to see it.

Ayokun has PD in spiritual matters and we would do well to sit back and learn, and not waste time disputing what is undisputable.

Ayokun
Pls will you continue your expose? I AM LOVING IT!!! don't allow these neo-Judaizers to derail the thread.

And for those who said that Goshen has no kind words for them neither did Paul. At a point he called them dogs Phillips 3; @ another point he told them to emasculate themselves, Galatians. No one should take it kindly with folks who are unteachable and destined to deceive others into bondage just as they are.

During the Liberian war, I always felt led to pray for them. It was a thing of joy to see that war end and their lady president installed.

During the middle east uprising I prayed for Tunisia, Egypt, Libya, etc. It was wonderful to see those crisis end. I even had the wonderful privilege of travelling to Tunis, Tunisia, afterwards.

God answers prayers.

For those who pray and believe in God, could we sheath our swords over theological issues and pray that peace returns to Syria and that Syrians cease to die to this evil regime?

Brethren, let us remember to pray for Syria.

^Goshen could give us some tips on where he is now. I think he can contact him directly. So we await Goshen 360 here.

I had the same question. WHERE IS FROSBEL?
I thought though he may be exercising some restraint on NL usage having opened a thread sometimes ago that he thinks he is addicted to NL.

Madhino, I don't get you

One of the greatest fallacies of atheists on this section is to think that because they criticize all/most religions then they are irreligious. But let me put it to you guys that believing that there is a no God is a "Belief"; one held steadfastly like adherents other religion, and so atheism is a religion.
Atheism requires active practice of faith. When things happen to religious folks they resort to faith in God to explain it and comfort themselves. When same things happen to Atheisst, e.g: Death, Birth of Child, Wedding, Blessings, Adversities, etc, they resort to their unbelief in God to explain them; I however do not know if they find any comfort in their beliefs.
Now this is not meant to be a down right condemnation of Atheism because religion (outside faith in Jesus alone) can be the worst thing that has happened to all humanity. Some argue that religion is the tares Jesus spoke about in his parables of tares among the wheath.
The atheist may be closer to the true God than most religious people. He has the liberty of spirit to pursue and understand truth as God so many times requires of sound Christians and not the commitment to dogma that denies them access to truth as is found with many religious people.

I make these comments because it seem to me that the religious section is producing more atheist among visitors coming here than all the other religion combined. That for me is a good thing; becaue then the Spirit of God can reach these people (atheists) and convert them to truth as God requires and not continue to make them follow religion blindly.
I also maintain that atheism is a religion; one of the religions of the religious section. Folks who are Christians and Muslims and trado worshippers should see them as another religious group and probably, even, respect their views. That way it will be possible that we can all discuss our religious views with greater openess of mind and charity, and God's Holy Spirit can bring these atheist to faith as He so much longs to do.

^excellent piece Goshen. I must study it over and over

demi
1. What is your bible class like: pls give me a template.
2. Let us have the points when he's started the teaching
3. Does he have a website?

demi
Who is your teacher? Tell us about him. Why does he dis-agree with you?

I find the 'Tales of Eve' TV series very interesting. A far cry from the dull and 'everlasting' Super stories and their likes. The producers have a story to tell and one does not feel time wasted watching them.
The mere fact that one can see 'The End' on a Nigerian TV series show that this one is different.
One tale has ended, another one begins next week; all with a similar theme - Eve, the story of women in contemporary Nigeria.
(From my Facebook page)

Christemmbassey
Security in the gospel or sound knowledge of the good news is the greatest impetus to Christian duties.
So many people think that a gospel/doctrine of grace is licence to sin but no: it licence to love. A sincere love for God that over spills to love for the man he has created and love births the fruit of the spirit. It is no longer an arduous task to fulfill duties but an over spill of love that lead inevitably to good works.
I find that a death of the proclamation of good news in our churches has led to legalism, frustration, hypocrisy, self righteousness and a general tendency to tear one another apart.
I give kudos to folks like Goshen who remind us of the gospel of Jesus inspire of unfortunate attacks from many quarters.

I am tempted to continue:
11: That Jesus said he would never leave nor forsake me.
12. That Jesus said none of this ones which the Father has given him will He loose: my security is not so much in what I do but in what He has done.
13. That NOTHING can separate me from the love of God in Christ Jesus
14. That He that gave did not withhold His only Son for my redemption, how shall He not freely with Him give me all things (FREELY: I need not purchase his blessings with giving, tithe firstfruit, or duties). IT IS FREE!!!
15. That this God that I serve can do exceeding abundantly than I can ever ask or think
16. That He is able to save me to the uttermost
17. That I have been given a spirit of holiness
18. That He that raised up His Son from death how shall He not quicken my mortal bodies: restoring health and vitality to them.
19. That my God shall supply all my needs according to His riches in Christ Jesus.
20: ... And I have found PEACE with God

What then is this GOOD NEWS
1. That Christ Jesus died to save sinners for which I am chief.
2. That in the cross of Jesus there is JUSTIFICATION which I must appropriate by FAITH alone with out resort to any external works, laws or duties.
3. That Jesus' blood has made PEACE btw me and God so I can approach the throne of grace with confidence.
4. That there is a SURE HOPE kept in heaven for me, secured by the blood of the Lamb.
5. That God has given me his Spirit as a down payment and as an assurance of His eternal kingdom.
6. That I have the witness of God in my heart that I am His child and can cry HABBA FATHER
7. That sin has no dominion over me.
8. That Jesus ever lives to make intercession for me.
9. That the mercies of God, the Sure Mercies to David, is everlasting: My past, present and future sins are hidden in Jesus Cross.
10. That God is working in me to be as He is in heaven.

A book 'Bedrock' by David Prior had this account: the author told the story of his early yrs in ministr/seminary. He was expected to preach a recent message of his before his seminary profs. By the time he was through, one of them asked him 'so where is the gospel in all you have said'. He said from that day on he always preached first emphasizing the gospel before proceeding to his message.
The gospel were the opening 3 chapters of Paul to the Ephesian. Only after stating the gospel does a preacher have the right to admonish.
The gospel is GOOD NEWS!!!!!!!!!!

Christembassey
As much as you should endeavor to uphold sound doctrine, it is easy to read your own prejudice into a post. Already the language of your OP will put off those who want to contribute. So let us allow folks to tell what they think the gospel of Christ is and let's not put them on the defensive at the very start.

^I agree Okeyz although you and her have derailed my thread

@Ollie, it shows you don't know so lets inform U. A statement of faith is a summary of beliefs. Yes the bible is the basis but so many people using the bible have differing beliefs.
If I enter an assembly and their statement faith denies Christ lordship, I can quickly run. Also, it provides a basis for association. Presently I am @ loggers head with my church bc a lack of such statement has led to clash of beliefs.
No one can enter and say something contrary in a place d statement is well enunciated.
But d reason for a lack of statement is the same as U have just expressed. But it will lead to clashes except people don take their beliefs serious enough

Goshen360: So two of you, both Ayoku777 my new man in Christ on this forum and DrummaBoy, also my new man here on this forum are enjoying yourself breaking spiritual bread and drinking holy water alone abi? Okay, I don come na...make una give me bread chop too. I don take my seat and I don come full ground. We must finish these spiritual food together. Yoruba says, obe yi dun, sugbon o ta; a jo ma finish e ni, a jo ma laa ni o. Meaning, this soup is sweet but much pepper but we will finish it together, we will use our tongue to 'leak' the plate.

Bros Gosh
You are always welcome. I was testing out newer waters, If you would pernit me saying it that way. Ayo is sound and I just wanted to know what he thought on the tithe. However, he is not given to writing that much. Unlike you with your lecture notes in theology but all na good sha. Every man with his own style, For the edification of all.

Now it is difficult to play the pro-tither. So abandon the project.

But what I noticed is that it is difficult to understand scriptures the way you should and still pay tithe.

So you agree that Malachi3:10 is an old testament injunction and that in Matthew 23:23 Jesus was speaking to men under the law with himself under the law too?

One other thing I noticed about your very concise answers is that you are not going to force anyone to tithe or not ti. I like that.

I have added you to my FB friends. Pls find the said post where I quoted you. The guys there are members of my local church but they are matured and free minded but I still think they do not understand grace the way they should.

Thank you. My question are ended, for now. Except if others have their own.

I cannot find you on facebook. Can you add me on: D.Y, while I still see if I can find it

ayoku777: I'm Ayoku Abang on facebook you can add me there by searching the name. Will address the issue on tithing soon

Thanks. I will do it straight away.

House on the Rock?! And you have those sublime views?! That is great. When the Lord said I would build my church and the gates of hell will not prevail against it, I now understand. He would do it by himself; not via denomination but via His Spirit.

I came across the doctrine/gospel of grace by chance: reading literature. In an earnest desire to conquer my own sins and know the Lord better, I read a lot of scripture and I realized that there was something sublime about the teachings of Paul. I would later discover that Paul's teaching revolutionized Luther himself and birth the 16th century reformation. For me it has been a long journey and the summary of the doctrine of grace, for me, is that: I have eternal security. Recently I had those doctrine buffeted by the teaching of a late minister in the USA, R.B. Thieme. But note that most of it had been head knowledge. It has really never affected my by practice of religion; as I try, as God would help me, to be holy to the Lord, etc. However, I had an unfortunate experience in Church and I began to question the tithe. I put up a thread here(https://www.nairaland.com/1239719/questions-frosbel-tithing) and it ran 12 pages.
By the end of the discourse we mainly had for and against the tithing. I would particularly moved by the contributions of Goshen 360, Pastor Kun and Garyarnold. There was a website by gary www.tithing101.com, which I looked up and by the end of the day, I had enough reason to stop tithing.

But then, having tithed for 15yrs, I had still had great doubts. Those doubts were further compounded by some revelations, so called, from Jesus, with one even saying that those who do not tithe will go to hell. Again threatening my doctrine of eternal salvation. Now the question to you: Is this, with your well rounded understanding of the doctrine of grace, do you agree that the NT believer is not expected to tithe? And again, what do you think is the source of these revelation? (I for one question them, because in one of those revelation, Jesus is said to have told the revelator that those who don't tithe are robbers. But clearly from scripture the tithe was always animals or crops or both but never money). Whichever part of the divide you put up with, either for or against, I would take up the other side and ask question from that point of view.

Again I want to thank you for your patience in answering the questions. You are doing me a whole lot favour.

If you will send me an email here at electronic_mails_4me@yahoo.com, I would like to add you on to my facebook so you can answer my friends directly, who disagree with your views, although I not only agree with them I am elated by them. Below are some of their comments. I would not answer them. I would request you do so yourself(that is if you don't mind O).

MOI: Convolutions upon convolutions!

OO: Convolution for discombobulation. Romans 6:1-2a: WHAT SHALL WE SAY THEN? Where sin abounds grace did much more abound. Shall we sin that grace may abound? GOD FORBID. High fallutin esoteric bloviation. The discussion has shifted from false prophets (so called for fund raising) through good and evil being one and the same, now to "irreducible" salvation. Please call a spade a spade. Isn't the preacher saying once you are saved you don't need to make a personal effort to eschew sin? I have found that strain of hopelessly hyprocritical assertion a continuous strain in Pentecostal circles since the 70s that I began to attend them. It is an attempt to create a psychological cocoon to free those who subscribe to it from the stress they have from their individual struggles in doing good and eschewing evil. I think people should take a closer look at Paul's own struggle depicted in Roman 7 from verse 14 downwards. He does not deny the struggle, yeah he affirms it AND points the direction to continual victory. This itself confirms a personal decision and effort to keep DOING GOOD. This same Paul that these bloviators copiously quote says "2Ti 2:19 Nevertheless the foundation of God standeth sure, having this seal, The Lord knoweth them that are his. And, Let every one that nameth the name of Christ depart from iniquity." This is as unambiguous as can be!!!

I used thier initials to allow for anonymity

Thanks for coming.
Those who have followed me here know that I raised questions on tithe a few weeks ago. I will still return to the question of tithe but my question for now are simple:

Not many Nigerian Christians have the understanding you have, so while still retaining your anonymity, I would like to know how you came about this understanding of yours. Who are your teachers? Do you Pastor a church? What country do you reside? And what is your view of the Christian Church of Nigeria?
Also, what Christian tradition are you of: Catholic, Pentecostal, Evangelical, or which other?
Let me limit the questions to that for now.

I could have made this discuss private via email but I think others will benefit from it.

Thanks.

Ayoku777 posted three comments on a Goshen360 thread and that was all We saw of him.
I have been so captivated by those comment that I put them up on my Facebook page. But alas like Melchizedek, he seems to have vanished.
Could he be an angel from God?
Goshen thinks he is a regular member here with a new ID.
I am hereby inviting you, Ayoku777, for a theological Q and A, not debate. With the hope of catching some insight into the richness of your wisdom in spiritual things. Especially in regards to the doctrine/gospel of grace.
Thank you in Advance.

A lot can be deduced from a society where criminals 'use' God to find success to their nefarious activities.
1. The religion practised here must be deficient in a way, where instead of cowering in fear at the mention of the name of God, they have no qualms in using it
2. Religion advancing beyond being opium but now becoming talisman.
3. The extent to which evil has taken root in the nation.
4. The fact that politicians also hobnobb with religious leaders while robbing public treasury, seem to embolden others criminal to do the same
6. These criminals will take tithe and offering to church with/without the knowledge of the pastor.
7. It is an extension of BH activities in the north. Ours kidnapped in God's name, BH kill in God's name.

^This id not an opportunity for the godless to condemn God
But one cannot but quiver at the sheer audacity of folk to revel in evil while using religion as talisman

On the Yomi Layinka show on Broadcasting Cooperation of Oyo State, the Oyo state television station in Ibadan, yesterday, Maj. General Rotimi(rtd) recounted his wife's ordeal in the hands of kidnappers: 'When she was kidnapped, I was in the US. We began negotiating with the kidnappers to release her, while they demanded for money'. He explained that ransom was paid for his wife's release who was in captivity for 10 days. 'When she was eventually released she told us that the kidnappers held constant worship and prayers sessions for the success of their mission.' He said anyone who tells you ransom are not paid for kidnapped victims is lying.

The greatest treat to d gospel today is not once saved forever saved but the prosperity gospel.
A gospel of everything goes. Whitefield was calvanist; Wesley was Arminian but btw them thousands came to d saving grace of Jesus. Today, people are not being saved. Rather, we are churning out religious people who mouth God for the things they can get from him. That is the biggest challenge.
Another is the altar call. The false sense of being a Christian all because an individual ans an altar call is making for hundreds of false disciples today. So that Christianity has become popular and has Lost its power.
Those are my grouse with modern gospel and the false prophet today.