₦airaland Forum

I discovered my mistake too late. I later saw on this same thread that greater authorities on this matter have argued you to no avail. So like them, I leave you to your ways.

And BTW your expose on the new wine parable only lends credence to my position. I am done with you on this thread.

Who is the Pastor or General Overseer of that church?

O foolish Bidam. Who has bewitched you?

Before you Goshen clearly portrayed Christ crucified, why do you still continue with this weak and beggarly issues done away with at calvary?

How can any unveiled mind read Goshen's expose and not see that the old is done away and in its place there is new priesthood and a new law? Without even reading Goshen I had told U the new priesthood birth the Priesthood of all Believers and he mentions it in his expose and here U are yearning Okpata.

smh...

I quoted Jesus' words: you cannot put new wine in old wine skin because it fits the picture the writer in Hebrew was trying to paint and the picture the whole of the NT painted. That is why it is NEW TESTAMENT.

I don't blame Bidam. These are the lies most Pentecostal churches propagate to rid people of their money.

I actually sort Goshen out here bc I needed the clarification and I believe I got. Bidam, shine your eyes and you too may get it...

[quote
author=Goshen360]I will like to stop here as other scriptural verses of
Hebrews 7 further explains the better privileges we have in Christ
Jesus. To this end, legalistic tithing is NO WHERE
INSTRUCTED TO THE NEW TESTAMENT CHRISTIANS.

This Thread is further open to questions, criticism
and sound doctrine. You are welcome![/quote]I finally took out time to study Goshen's expose on Hebrew 7. He didn't mention this though but I wish to add that another reason why NT Christian cannot tithe, along with the fact that God nullified the old commandment must include ending tithe, can be found in Jesus words: WE CANNOT PUT NEW WINE IN OLD WINE SKIN. If Jesus discouraged it, natures abhorred it, God cannot uphold it. Does the end to tithing today.

^Now since you say the tithe predates the law and use this as a justification for tithe, I argue that circumcision also predated the law - why did Paul vehemently oppose as it as we see in Acts 15:2 and other scriptures.

Now you claim you made clear the distinction btw circumcision and tithe in this forum, unfortunately I have not seen that discuss.

Like I said earlier God never gave a clear command for tithe until the law but he gave a clear command for circumcision b4 the law in Genesis 17:9-14. If this same God through inspiration in Paul say circumcision ended at the cross and our glory now is in a spiritual circumcision; how much tithe: that he never gave a command on?

That Abraham tithed war spoils pre-law is not a justification for NT tithing. Its been made clear that Abraham tithed spoils not his income; and that was once and not routine. Heb 7 discusses the supremacy of Christ priesthood/covenant. It doesn't need tithe to sustain it.

@Bidam

I'm on phone now so I am limited to how much I can say but I will chip in somethings

I tithed 15yrs. I got convinced against it and I stopped. My thinking now about the tithe is that while indeed it has been abused by the church, many others are still using it to great advantage.

Same way God permitted the Jews to divorce, etc, which Jesus eventually corrected @ his coming is the same way he's has permitted the tithe. His perfect will of course is grace giving but if tithe is what his people understand, he permits it until a season like this.

Now, I am indeed upset with the way church is running (any sound believer should be) but I say this before God (and I have judged my heart), my position on tithing is not due to any offence at all

I just feel the time has come to set the record straight.

Bidam, U have done well but U have not been convincing at all. Change is difficult and transcending a tradition to another comes with resistance. One can understand ur plight

^After quoting St.Ola, one would have thought U would have grasped the issue only for U to begin talking holiness. Is that the issue here? The quote is the best summary I have seen on this tithe matter and it should lay all doubt down but if U remain unconvinced, the Lord help U.

But before you go permit a rejoinder to your posts

Bidam: very rich coming from you who has a penchant for folly.

That is an allegation but I will let it pass

where did i avoid your answers? Maybe because am tired of repeating myself to obstinate fellows who already have a preconceived notions of the answers before asking Christians just to spite them

I understand you there; it happens to me too. But you should understand that we may not share same Christian stands but I am a Christian, trying to understand your position and not to spite you. Atleast for now.

semantics.transfer and change na the same thing. If you transfer your property to a new house from an old one does it necessary mean you did not change your house? only the container was changed, the content and substance remain the same. God is the content and substance, the container is the human vessels He uses for His Glory.

Well anyone who read what you wrote when you used the word transfer or even reading what you read now will see that what you mean by transfer is simply to change the name levithes to Pastor/Ministers. But the word change that the scripture and I used means a total revamping of the system. A discarding of one, to begin another. The point is that the law and priesthood being changed, the container and content has changed. And pls don't use God as a content here; he is more than. He is the maker of the container and content and has chosen to change both in this dispensation.

lies from the pit of hell scriptures in heb 7 did not categorically state that the mosaic laws were changed. i knew that is what you will say next.second Gosh in action.We are to rightly divide the word of truth and am afraid you are not doing justice here. 0k so tell us the laws that was changed; moral laws, ceremonial laws or civil laws

I would answer you the same Way Goshen will. There is no moral, ceremonial or civil laws. Law is law. The distinction came with this modern bible teachers (and they are the worst of all times). And all of the law is done away with in the cross of Jesus.

Gal 5:22 But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,


Gal 5:23 Meekness, temperance: against such there is no law.

lemme help you since you guys are dull in hearing..the only laws that changed is the ordinances and sacrifices nothing more nothing less. Christ has offered himself as the perfect sacrifice once and for all so no need for you drumma boy to take a goat,dove etc to see the High Priest. Infact tithes was before the law..so your argument is weak here.
i don explain that one already..see the above.

Ok. If the only laws that changed where ordinances and sacrifices (by the way there is no evidence for this in the NT), why don't you practise the tithe the way Moses commanded it? Why do you tithe your income, when God commanded that agricultural produce were what was to be tithed? Why do you not practise the other types of tithing: giving to the widows and poor? Why do you not carry the tithe to temple/church once a year and gather and eat with loved ones? When did the three type of tithe, which Moses commanded, and which is 23% of a land's produce become 10% of your income? The point is that if you really want to tithe, do it the way Moses commanded it. In fact keep the whole law of Moses; because to break one is to break all!

All this one na copy paste. Paul actually debunked this you statement: 1 Corinthians 9

New International Version (NIV) 7 Who serves as a soldier at his own expense? Who plants a vineyard and does not eat its grapes? Who tends a flock and does not drink the milk? 8 Do I say this merely on human authority? Doesn’t the Law say the same thing? 9 For it is written in the Law of Moses: “Do not muzzle an ox while it is treading out the grain.” Is it about oxen that God is concerned? 10 Surely he says this for us, doesn’t he? Yes, this was written for us, because whoever plows and threshes should be able to do so in the hope of sharing in the harvest. 11 [b]If we have sown spiritual seed among you, is it too much if we reap a material harvest from you? 12 If others have this right of support from you, shouldn’t we have it all the more?

But we did not use this right. On the contrary, we put up with anything rather than hinder the gospel of Christ.

13 Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? 14 In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.

There is no way one can read what Paul wrote in 1Corinthians 9 and see "Pay tithe" there. That scripture is the reason why ministers should be paid monthly salary from the free will offering given in church. Simple. Nothing more, nothing less. That scripture does not translate OT support for the levithes to NT support for pastors. If however that is the way you see it; that is the reason we cannot agree.

Thus we disagree to disagree.

^^^That is fine with me

We disagree to disagree

Now this free will offering is what Goshen360 (where is he sef?) calls grace giving.

And the concept of grace giving is fantastic. It is simply giving as you motivated by God to. When there is grace giving, then we expect that only those whose heart God has touched by grace will give. It would mean that a hardened sinner, who is simply religious, would not have to tithe. Since he has no grace in his heart, he would not give; and God does not need such money in the first place (This is one of the downsides of tithing; it becomes a religious exercise that some people do to buy God's favor, regardless of how they live).

But the beauty of grace giving is that people have liberty to do as God leads them. They give as they buy into a vision. They would even begin to give beyond 10% and such people would never be able to glory in how much they give because it is by grace: they give as they have been given, and rejoice in God and not how much tithe they paid over the years.

Truth is that grace giving may not bring as much money as tithe will bring at first but subsequently it will surpass tithe giving. I am convinced that NT support for the gospel is based on how much God has touched men's heart with his grace through his Spirit and that tithing is an antithesis to grace.

Bidam: The queshion you should ask yourself zikky is why does the superiority of the Melchizedekian priesthood imply the abolition of the tithe? Being under the administration of a superior priesthood does not automatically mean that one does not need to tithe.

Hebrew 7:11-12 If therefore perfection were by the Levithical priesthood, (for under it the people received the law), what further need was there that another priest should rise after the order of Melchizedec, and not be called after the order of Aaron? For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.

Being under a superior priesthood does mean that there is no need to tithe. If there was a need to tithe, Christ, who began his priesthood here on earth, before even going to the cross, would have received tithe of men. He would have commanded it to his disciples and not just mention it as a little matter of the law to pharisees. Paul, who wrote to the churches would have emphasized it in his pastoral epistles.

Tithing, which was a means of support for OT levithes and priest, has been changed to free will offering to ministers. It is this free will offering that Jesus ministry was supported with; and it is what Paul encouraged Christians to practise. I agree with Frosbel and Kun here, there is a possibility the reason why some emphasize the tithe so much is bc it gives ministers the liberty to witch hunt people and to forcefully make them part with their hard earned resources. if our giving is by any such coercion or obligation, it is no giving at all. And it should be stopped. Thus the reason tithing must be abolished.

Bidam: so if you are talking about tithing as a spiritual principle revealed by God in the hearts of Christians i would say we are on the same page ok?

I am not too sure if we are on the same page

Because if you agree that circumcision has changed, and that God would not have us glory in the flesh; why do you think the means by which God would have us support minister won't change? You normally carp on the tithe being a spiritual principle that was transferred from the old to the new; but has it occurred to you that the principle in tithing is simply that God would have his work supported on earth: the mouth of the ox that threshes the wheat should not be covered. But like circumcision, the manner this support comes has changed. In the old it was tithe; in the new it is free will offering.

The issue of glorying in the flesh is not just that some people rejoice over seeing shed blood from a male organ. No. What Paul meant by glorying in the flesh is that some people find right standing by what they do with God: legalism - which is exactly what an obligatory paying of 10% of one income is every month/week, as the case may be.

Bidam, you however did not refer to the issue Kun raised and which you mentioned. Are there scriptural evidence to show that there was a transfer of OT levithical priesthood to Jesus and ministers today?

truthislight: With the same mouth you praise God with the same mouth you curse?

Jesus will be very proud of you.

Well, truth is we all must make room for ourselves on this forum and not allow insults, curses and name calling derail thread discuss. I know dispute get so bad that some people resort to name calling to vent their frustration, the old doctrine of restraint or self-control should come in handy in times like that. And it is not just Alex alone that is guilty of it; we all are. I drew Pastor Kun's attention to this yesterday. Now how do we adorn the doctrines we so passionately support, when we curse and insult and malign, as if we are on the politics section.

So I call everyone on each side of the divide to pls exercise restraint. Let us discuss like matured people. I may not agree with Bidam on many issues but I give him this credit that he hardly insults anyone on the forum.

So use of words like satan, false prophets, stu-pid, idiot, etc, should not be found among those of us who profess religion

Spent

Bidam: Ok the high priest is no longer Aaron a levite but Jesus Christ( Melchizedek). the ordinances and the sacrifices were fulfilled by the death of Jesus Christ.All Levitical authorities and responsibilities—which would include receiving tithes—have transferred to Him, who is also the Head of the church. Jesus gives authority in the church to His ministers to conduct His work on earth in His stead.So tithing should be a test and act of faith, a good work that pleases God.

Pastor Kun: Although it has long been established on this forum that you are a charlatan and a fraudster, I would still ask for the benefit of those that could be deceived by your rants to show us from scriptures where it was stated that the levitical rights to receive tithes as been transferred to the priesthood of Jesus as Jesus himself NEVER collected tithes and neither did his disciples collect on his behalf after his death and resurrection.

Bidam: emotional rants..what do you know about scriptures? God doesn't cast precious pearls before swines.

It should be noted that Bidam has a penchant for avoiding answers to questions.

But I wish to refer to the bolded above because they bring the following issues:

1. The Levithical priesthood has been transferred to Jesus priesthood.
2. Jesus has in turn given the job of the priesthood to ministers who can now collect the tithe.

The above are conclusions that can be deduced logically but NEVER on the authority of scripture. What hebrew 7 teaches is not a transfer of priesthood but a change. It goes further to say that because there is a change in priesthood there has also been a change in law. The change in law, if we may permit scripture to interpret scripture, has of necessity to be a change from a law of sin and death: mosaic law, the that say you will die when you sin; to a law of Spirit of Life: the law that says when we walk in the Spirit we would have the life of Christ.
So to deduce that there was a literal transfer from levites to Jesus is to make deductions that the bible does not make.

2. Jesus did not make minister new generation priests: what scripture teaches is that we all, believers, have been made kings and priests unto our God. And it has been pointed out in this forum that priest do not pay tithe. Along with this, the reformers enacted the doctrine of Priesthood of all Believers, which they correctly deduced from scripture and used to counter Rome's dominance of Christians in the medieval times. Now when the church begins to rot and wane, we begin again to re-enact the priesthood of certain individual and not remind ourselves that we are all priests before God. No other doctrine and practise does this better than paying tithe to a pastors.

Bidam: But everything written in His word is for our admonition no? No one is saying [b]not paying tithes will take you to hell na[/b].and that is why i said in my previous post that a Christian pays tithe not because the law demands it but because grace empowers us to give.

But the bolded is exactly what Olaadegbu teaches with his visions of hell on this forum and you very well agree with him.

That is by the way. You did not answer my question: Is tithing different from circumcision?

Zikkyy: You don't need the scripture to show that you God's tithe is not a Christian obligation. abi your name na Gersham or Seraphim

What he wants is for us to get in him a scripture that says "thou shall not tithe in the new testament O"; Just as he cannot give us a scripture in the NT that says "thou shall tithe in the NT O"

One would expect Bidam with all he knows to understand that scripture is for the spiritually discerned and should be rightly divided and applied. The debate in the NT was on whether Christian could be circumcised or not. The debate was well trashed out to show that Circumcision is not a NT practise. What the pro-tithers do not realize is that Circumcision and tithing could very well be substituted today for each other. Both of them were before the Law. But while circumcision was a clear command of God to Abraham in Genesis 17:9-14, there was never such a command from God, pre-law, for the tithe. So if circumcision could be done away with, how much more tithe? Both of them were found in Moses' law too.

Bidam, no one will find such a scripture for you; just as you will not find such a scripture yourself but make do with this ones and if you have any sanctified common sense you should find your answers in them

Act 15:1-2 And certain [men] came down from Judea and taught the brethren, "Unless you are circumcised according to the custom of Moses, you cannot be saved."(they sound like Olaadegbu and his visions of hell) Therefore, when Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and dispute with them, they determined that Paul and Barnabas and certain others of them should go up to Jerusalem, to the apostles and elders, about this question.

Act 15:10-11 - "Now therefore, why do you test God by putting a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear? "But we believe that through the grace of the Lord Jesus Christ [fn] we shall be saved in the same manner as they."

Act 15:24 - Since we have heard that some who went out from us have troubled you with words, unsettling your souls, (the ministry of coercing to devotion through fear) saying, "[You must] be circumcised and keep the law" [fn]--to whom we gave no [such] commandment--

Col 2:16-17: So let no one judge you in food or in drink, or regarding a festival or a new moon or sabbaths, which are a shadow of things to come, but the substance is of Christ.

Gal 5:1 ¶ Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage.


Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised (or if you tithe) , Christ shall profit you nothing.


Gal 5:3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised (or tithe), that he is a debtor to do the whole law.


Gal 5:4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace(And this is a great indictement).

Forgive my shabby manner of qouting these scriptures I am just learnig to use the facilities Goshen gave me. But there are the scriptures.

I call any pro-tither to show me there is a distinction btw circumcision and tithing; and pls don't bring the stale argument of males being circumcised today. I was circumcised but certainly not on the eight day; nor was it according to Mosaic law. It was for health reasons.

Miss Ope: Didn't u tell Frosbel and Goshen to stop arguing bout the thite issue and better still talk bout weightier matters? Now U're d one going back to ur vomit... Olodo Bidam

Ouch...!

Miss Ope:
Lol... Mr Bidam.
Somehow I believe u just don't wanna give up cos of ego... Frosbel and his cohorts av been able to prove beyond reasonable doubt dat Thite has no place in d church and therefore must be abolished.

A fine summary

shdemidemi: ^^^^But their differences were quite clear to see in the book of Acts and Galatians.

They did have differences as reported in those scriptures but to regard the scripture as flawless, you cannot degrade one author and exalt another. Written scripture is inspired by the Holy Spirit. Their actions as recoreded is Acts and Galatians were not flawless but their epistles must be regarded as flawless for us to maintain the integrity of the whole bibie.

Now, what I have said does not mean that I accept that the laws of Moses found in the OT are relevant today. Paul shows us clearly that the law is done away with in the cross of Jesus. So any thing written in the OT, outside the law, is still for our edification.

I agree.

Although I disagree with the position that James, Peter and some other Jerusalem apostles believed salvation by works. My own deduction is that they may not have understood the doctrine in its wholesomeness the way Paul preached it, but they accepted Paul doctrine and did not detract from it. The James 2 scriptures was not saying Justification was gonna be by works but that no one can truly say that he is justified by faith without showing the works.

And that point James made is very vital when the doctrine of grace is proclaimed bc without that caveat, the teaching will lead inevitably to licenciousness. So if you are truly justified, don't just say it; show it. That is what James is saying.

James and Peter, did not detract from Paul's teachings in their letters. They did not understand all he taught though, like Peter confessed. The epistles are scriptures for the church age and no part of it should be explained away as works and the other as grace.

[quote author=OLAADEGBU]

From where comes this provision? God relies on the faithful giving of His people. Such must therefore see it as their duty to God to give of their substance.

I believe it is theologically incorrect to say that a Soveriengn God, the all sufficient one, will depend on men, some very insuffienct ones and unreliable even at their best, to provide for His work. Did Jesus not say if the children stop to cry out His praise, God is able to raise up stones to do it? What was the message of Jesus taking out a coin from the mouth of a fish to pay tax? God is sufficient and does not need men's money to do his work. He would touch unbelievers to do it, like it was with Cyrus, if believers refuse to do what they are to do. So number one error in this deeper life doctrine: God is not man; don't bring Him to your level. God is sovereign.

Nehemiah was shocked on reaching the house of the Lord that the ministers there, the Levites and their choristers, had abandoned their post for lack of provision. They left the ministry of the word, in search of food on the farms. The leaders were to be blamed for not teaching the people to give their tithes and offerings, so that there will be "meat in God's house (Malachi 3:10). Nehemiah corrected the lapses, ordered the people to bring in their tithes and the Levites were restored to their ministry. He appointed honest and faithful men to manage the resources. By this the Levites had their provision regularly supplied and they remained in their service to God and the people.

This is theologically correct as long as you understand the context in which the event occured. This is an OT scenerio. God had ordained that the levites, priests and temple will be supported via tithes and offering. When the people did not do this, there was lack in the house of God.
It will however be incorrect to use this as an example for tithe and offering in this gospel dispensation, as the gospel is to be supported via free will offering today: 2Corinthians 9:6-8

Many anointed ministers are quitting the ministry today not for lack of vision but for want of food. This ought not to be. Believers are to live up to their responsibility of regularly paying their tithes and offerings, so that this generation of anointed ministers of God is not lost to commerce and industry.

Now this is the crux of my contention with this write up: Men are quiting ministry for lack of food and not lack of vision? Well, I think it is the other way round Men are quiting ministry for lack of vision and not for lack of food; or better still men cannnot find support for their ministry because they cannot sell a proper vision to people who will support them.
Let us not fool ourselves, Christian ministry, like any other venture in life, is an idea: in this case a God idea. Let's bring it to the natural: If you go into a bank and you ask for a loan, you will be asked what business idea you want it for. A proper bank is ready to go the extra mile to support an idea that will bring it profit. Or, even, anyone is ready to invest in an idea that will bring profit. Same with Christian ministry. Believers are not idiots. People will support your ministry to the extent to which they believe your vision. You don't need to witch hunt anyone into tithe and offering paying for them to support your ministry. On the other hand I agree with Frosbel cartoon depiction that many people resort to ministry not because they have a vision to sell but because they are jobless and the church has been sold a lie that there is free tithe and offering for Pastors to feed on.
I know of a Christian ministry that has trived for close to 70yrs now, but no one pays tithes or gives offering there. Rather the Pastors have sold a solid scriptural idea/vision that the people cannot but support financially. And guess what? They don't give 10%; those people give all into it. They send out materials, books and such likes around the world free of charge for those who request for them and some people are paying for these materials. Even the deeper life church, that Olaadegbu so proudly supports, sells their newsletter to the public and church members inspite of all the tithes they collect.
However, those who are now complaining that Christian ministry is suffering for lack of support are not telling the whole truth. The truth is that it is bc these people had no solid vision from the beginning of their ministry, that when they begin to find free tithes and offerings that they resort to buying jets, yatchs, buildings, etc. If there was a vision from the start that was truly bible based, non of them will be spending the Lord money the way they are doing it.
So, Olaadegbu, what churches need today is not more tithes and offerings, but more men with a vision from God that is worth supporting. Many of these churches will close down the day their members realize that tithes payment is their pastor robbing them of hard earned resources. And they need to close down. So that the real churches, truly called of God, will remain.

Those who manage church estate need to be faithful, honest and prudent, so that there is no lack in God's house.

We are on the same page here

How faithful are you in obeying God's command to bring in all the tithes? To deny the Church of your tithes is to rob God of what rightly belongs to Him. To obey is better than sacrifice. You can make amends if you are found wanting.

Apparently from all I have said before , we are not on the same page here

Olaadegbu has succeded in bringing me out of my one month sabathical here. But I maintain my position. We do not need more tithes and offering. What we need is more godly vision, sell-able to God's people who will, without coercion, support it 100% and not just 10%.

Datsall...

I took up this issue with members of my family this weekend and not suprisignly, it degenerated to an argument. My position was this: Why should Adeboye not speak out on national issues? What do you think would have happened if he had labelled the feul hike exercise of Jan' 1 2012 as demonic? I am too sure Aso _ Rock would have restored it back to N65. My in-law, a pastor with RCCG, said he was not led to speak.

Then I countered and said, we should not hide issues under the leading of the Spirit. Romans 12:2, says that God call believers to be renewed in mind - that means sanctified common sense. It is fool-hardy to think Pastors hear a thus saith the Lord on every issues concerning their lives. Then I countered: but he dosn't wait for the leading of the Spirit to raise money to build schools and probably to buy and maintain a jet.

The answer is simple: it is all self-serving. Adeboye is in the good books of Mr President, to criticize him will mean not being in thier good books anymore. And then the many favors would go away. God know how much the Pastor is blessed on the numerous visits of Mr President to the express way and so on.

Until we find men and women in ministry, committed to propagating the true gospel and speaking the truth as it is: even speaking truth to power, we will continue in backward situation we have found ourselves as a nation.

Adeboye has no excuse for not making sound, godly and even critical contributions to the national discourse; it is part of the calling to pastor the sheep of God. If he however relinquish on the duty, for filthy lucre sake, he has God to answer to.

There thousands of RCCG parishes in this land. Which one of them did the message refer to?

I don't get you Tigerhead. The work of a president is to party?

And someone says all work and no play?

With this ot of mentality is it any wonder we have the clueless ruling us and are applauded?

smh...

Yesterday, about this time the Jonathan govt was celebrating the PDP as a party. It shut down NTA with PDP people dining and winning in Aso Rock, while
Gordon and Klint-de-Drunk got them all laughing with jokes.

Rome burns Nero fiddles.

Today again, NTA is shut own with Patience Jonathan partying but this time with leading women in the country. Here they are dancing to Marvin Gaye's 'Sex-ual Healing'.

When will Mr Jonathan's get down to work? When will parties end and we begin to enjoy dividends of a democracy in Nigeria?

alexleo: You are just being deceived by satan even when God is trying to draw your heart out of frosbels satanic manipulations. Just bear it in mind that you have no excuse before God to give because you have seen this matter extensively argued here, you have heard testimonies of those who have experienced it. You have no single excuse to give God when you leave this world and discover that the no hell satanic preaching of frosbel and his cohorts are lies upon lies. Now of your own volition you have rejected the message and hope you understand the implication? That you cannot blame God when you leave this world that he didnt expose you to this truth. Feel free to make your choice but also note the following points-

I appreciate your message to me.

However, the reason why your counsel is hard to receive is bc it betrays the same spirit that the hell revelators are trying to pass along: cohersion to devotion through fear.

Now, apparently you got my message wrong. I am not very sure of Frosbel's position on hell. But this is my position: Hell does exist. Hell was made for Satan and his cohorts. Hell shall have in them (also) as many as refuse to have faith in the Lord Jesus Christ and his saving work on the cross. Hell shall not have (genuine) Christians in it. And finally, the vision of hell as being propagated by many on this forum, led by Olaadegbu, yourself and others, are lies from Satan.

This is the word I believe God gave me concerning fear mongers like you and the others:

"...That their hearts be comforted, being knit together in love, and unto all riches of the full assurance of understanding, to the acknowledgement of the mystery of God(doctrine of grace, Ephesians 3:2-4), and of the Father, and of Christ... and this I say, lest any man should beguile you with enticing words... As you have received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him (you received him by faith so walk by faith and not depending Mosaic Law for your rule of life): rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the fatih, as you have been taught (according to scriptures), abounding therein with thanksgiving (not fear). Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deciet, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ... And you are complete in Him, which is the head of all principality and power (my salvation is complete and finished; I am not trying to make heaven... heaven for me is made!)... Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holyday, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days (or of TITHING, or of covering of hair, wearing lipsticks, wearing trousers, wearing wigs, etc, as is propagated by the Deeper Life Church and other hell-vision deceived sects): which are a shaddow of things to come; but the body is of Christ. Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels(and these visions and not wanting in angels), intruding into those things which he has not seen (propagating visions of hell you have not seen, but depending on a third party to tell), vainly puffed by his fleshly mind (the pride and self righteousness of these prophets on Nairaland is palpable), and not holding the Head(rather they hold unto what their General Superintendant says and not what Christ says), from which all the body by joints and bands having nourishement ministered, and knit together, increaseth with the increase of God..." Colosian 2:1-23

It will do you well to read the whole chapter because it ministers a lot to folks like you.

Two final words:

1. Notice from the begining of the qoute the calling for the Christian is to understand the mystery of God's word as delivered to Paul - that is the doctrine of God's grace. Some call it Church age doctrine. Jesus did not preach that message (in whole) bc the church was not birth until he died and shed his blood. This is what we are called to understand, and find comfort in.

2. Notice how many times in this chapter alone Paul emphasises "Let no man...". He envisioned the days when hell revelators will infitrate the church and begin to teach false doctrine and those days are here. Jesus said the same thing in Mattthew 24:4: "Take heed that no man deceive you".

I agree with Frosbel that the message of the cross is a message of God's love to a dying world and not fear; because fear breeds torment and no man is made perfect in fear.

I know you would not agree with me but I write this for other who may benefit.

I am taking one month leave from Nairaland religious section to attend to my academic work. I trust God to be back in July with a bang. I will still make out time to read posts but will rarely contribute.

Stay well everyone and God bless.

Image123: This fellow is actually in agony (from his words). He needs someone to argue tithe with him and perhaps make him fill fulfilled. Who will answer?

Quite on the contrary. There is no argument for the tithe; and if you know my style quite well on NLs, I don't do well in arguments. I would rather loose an argument holding unto truth than win an argument and be deceived.

furthermore more we were taught that as christians we are not under the law and we are not bound to keep jewish laws. More importantly we were warned that christians trying to keep aspects of the law are in danger of loosing their salvation as they are demonstrating they don't have enough faith in christ as expressed by Paul in Galatians 3:10 and Galatians 5:1-4.

1. I realize that many of the churches that have their people under bondage never teach Pauline epistles and even if they refer to some of the doctrines, it is always in passing. There is not way an individual will understand the gospel of grace and still tithe. I began to question the tithe not from attending a meeting like the one Peter organized but by reading Paul's letters. Especially the one to Colosians chapter 2. So when those who know bette explained it to me, it was an "equal to" for me; I just accepted it as truth and stopped tithing.

Petres007 very nicely dressed in a very smart suit like a big time prosperity preacher.

Now this one got me roaring in laughter. I can imagine what it looks like bc I see those guys everyday. In fact in the next few days Bishop Elomobor is coming to my church and his frame fits one cartoon picture Pastor Kun puts up on his post sometimes (of a malnourished church member feeding an overweight Pastor). I have told my Pastor the next time that Bishop comes I would attend service. His type is the very reason many church folks have to re-examine the biblical basis of the doctrines they hear in church.

I dug basically into to church history and how tithing came to be practised in the church with the fianlly assertion that monetary tithing from income started in America less than 150 years ago so it is clearly a man made doctrine derived from twisting outdated biblcal doctrines that are not applicable to christians in the first instance.

Church is another strong argument against the tithe. Did our fathers tithe? When did we start to hear of tithing? Olaadegbu qouted R C Sproul as saying a letter in the first century spoke of Christians tithing. Then I ask, while the whole cannon of the NT was written they "forgot" to mention the tithe, why should we now use a letter after it was written to justify false doctrinal position.

By the end of the discussion forum those who had sympathy for the tithe doctrine were dumbfounded and very quiet. One could easily tell that they had been touched by what was revealed to them and they would be having second thoughts on this false doctrine.

I hope you all had a time of prayer to allow for God's Holy Spirit to reach men's heart on the issue, fully?

The final part was a question and answer forum which was handled by another co ordinator. At the end of the forum it was established that the tithing doctrine was very dangerous to christianity as it is the pillar on which several other false doctrines ravaging the church today are built. It is also the cornerstone of the prosperity gospel which is clearly inspired by the devil himself to distract christians from the true gospel of christ. It was also established that as christians we have to contend for the faith and not tolerate those adding 'little' lies to the gospel as a drop of poison is enough to poison a whole glass of water. In all it went very well and a good number of people were definitely delivered from the yoke of tithing placed on their lives by mere men.

This is a truism. I had agonized over the state of the church for years but only came to understand why she is where she is today bc of the doctrine of tithe that places Christians in the position of servants and childrens when God will have us come into the position of Sons.

I stumbled on this thread on Peter 007's profile and was really impressed by the discuss on tithing there. Below Pastor Kun tries to make a summary of the event of the day

The report at last

Well the program held as scheduled even though i arrived late due to pressing business issues. The program was well attended with about 25-30 people in attendance and it lasted for about five hours. The program was divided into three sections; First was a very detailed exposition into the history and origins of biblical tithing and why God instituted it for the Jews, a detailed analysis of church tithing today and the disconnect between it and the one instituted in the bible, an analysis of Abraham's tithe which is used to justify tithes in churches today and the glaring disconect between it and what is preached in church today. furthermore more we were taught that as christians we are not under the law and we are not bound to keep jewish laws. More importantly we were warned that christians trying to keep aspects of the law are in danger of loosing their salvation as they are demonstrating they don't have enough faith in christ as expressed by Paul in Galatians 3:10 and Galatians 5:1-4. Since i was late for the program i missed out on the ealier parts but this i can say is the summary of what was taught to us there and of course this section was handled by Petres007 very nicely dressed in a very smart suit like a big time prosperity preacher.

The second part was a discussion forum, we were divided into two groups were attendees were able to discuss and and ask questions on the subject matter, in the group i was in most people agreed and understood that there was a major disconnect between tithing today and what obtained in the bible however we still had the "my pastor said" crowd who were finding it difficult to come to terms with the fact that their pastors had led them astray. At this point i decided to take charge of the discussion and dug into my rich repertoire of the subject matter in explaining to and convincing those would still had doubts about the subject matter. I dug basically into to church history and how tithing came to be practised in the church with the fianlly assertion that monetary tithing from income started in America less than 150 years ago so it is clearly a man made doctrine derived from twisting outdated biblcal doctrines that are not applicable to christians in the first instance. By the end of the discussion forum those who had sympathy for the tithe doctrine were dumbfounded and very quiet. One could easily tell that they had been touched by what was revealed to them and they would be having second thoughts on this false doctrine.

The final part was a question and answer forum which was handled by another co ordinator. At the end of the forum it was established that the tithing doctrine was very dangerous to christianity as it is the pillar on which several other false doctrines ravaging the church today are built. It is also the cornerstone of the prosperity gospel which is clearly inspired by the devil himself to distract christians from the true gospel of christ. It was also established that as christians we have to contend for the faith and not tolerate those adding 'little' lies to the gospel as a drop of poison is enough to poison a whole glass of water. In all it went very well and a good number of people were definitely delivered from the yoke of tithing placed on their lives by mere men.

@Petres007

You may wish to make some inputs as i came late and missed out on some parts of the program.

Peter 007 adds to what Kun leaves out here:

You very nicely summarized it all o. Although you left out some points which we discussed before you showed up. I'm pressed for time now so I'll just name the keypoints I believe we discussed before your arrival.

1. The biblical Purpose/Reason for the tithe.
2. The contents of the tithe. Was it money? Agric produce? Or both?
3. The recipientS of the tithe (as there were multiple, clearly identified recipients).
3. The (3) types of tithes - their purpose, how they were to be treated/handled, where, when, whom etc.
4. Those who biblically were tax tithe exempt (also recipients of the tithe).
5. Other instructions regarding tithing.

This isn't exhaustive and I'm not sure at which point you came in

Cheers!

Now Image 123 comes into the discuss and tried to makes an issue of the number of people in attendance

The program was well attended with about 25-30 people in attendance and it lasted for about five hours.

you for invite Bonnke na, that man dey pull crowd literally.

And Image gets a wonderful response from Mod Jesoul

Snr brother Image how body now? you're chiding uncle Kunle & agent 007 about the # of people...you should know better now. Where 2 or 3 are gathered. Plus its not the quantity of people there but rather the quality. One person can effect a change in a thousand, whereas a thousand can come, but yet no change in a single one - we see that everyday in naija - masses go to church almost daily but no change in the morality of the nation.

It was so apt.

I only wish the organizers of such event could video tape it next time and probably upload on you tube so that a thread like this can be complete and some of us can partake of the fellowship years after it is concluded

Here are pix of the bridge when development was going on. I got this from NL

https://www.nairaland.com/1239260/mokola-flyover-bridge-ibadan-pics

https://www.nairaland.com/1106513/mokola-roundabout-bridge-construction-update

Thanks otokx, I have effected the correction

Frosbel
Thanks for that piece. This visions on hell were beginning to get to me but somehow I am learning to ignore them all together.

With their leading apostle here on NL, Olaadegbu, never in short supply of these visions.

Apart from Paul saying Satan transforms to angels of light, Jesus started his discourse in MATT 24 with the words DO NOT BE DECEIVED.. FOR MANY WILL COME IN MY NAME SAYING I AM CHRIST... He was not saying we would have the likes of Jesus of Oyingbo, Guru Marathi, etc, (though we have those too), I believe he was telling what we are seeing today: people coming with visions allegedly from Christ - in his name - and bringing words from Him - saying they are Christ.

By their Fruits we will know them
1. This visions feast on the gullible
2. They support a church's narrow doctrinal position
3. They deny the grace of God
4. They paint God as a tyrrant and the aspect of God's love is hidden
5. etc

They cannot be of God.
Well done Frosbel.