₦airaland Forum

@Ihedinobi

Sorry if it seem I am not that 'constant' on these threads. I use a bad browser @ home that forces me to post concise messages

I will visit your statement tomorrow @ the office by God's grace. Right now I gatto go and sleep.

And guys let us make time out in our prayers tonight for Nigerians living in the UK for their safety. Some people have sent messages around about Nigerians in fear of reprisals.

Good night.

Jesus said by their fruit you will know them. This confusing of law with grace: what has it led to in our church life?

1. Baby Christians: Believers who can't think for themselves but must depend on laws of do's and don'ts; or depend on a Pastor's thus saith the Lord.

2. Restoration of a new levithical priesthood: Men of God!

3. Prosperity gospel: when believers are not assured of an eternal security, they secure a temporal one for themselves.

4. Preoccupation with irrelevance: revivals and programs without end.

5. Biblical illiteracy: believer who do not know their bible. Who cannot divide the word rightly

6. Miracle seeking: and the consequent vulnerability of the church to quacks and false prophets. Case in point: T B Joshua.

7. A death of knowledge of church history: believer who do not know what led to the Reformation; stories of the great awakening; Wesley, Whitefield, Spurgeon, and even our own CAC apostle Babalola; etc.

@Ihedinobi

Your post where you say U will take prisoners if anyone detracts from the person of Jesus are the same reason I disagree with U.

How does an individual that teaches that there are elements and principles in the law of Moses applicable today, not detract from Christ? Do you understand the persecution and hate Paul endured bc he taught that circumcision no longer applied to gentile Christians? He called it the offence of the cross. So how do you convince me that tithing differ from circumcision? In fact circumcision is given greater prominence than tithe in the OT and Paul discountenanced it, how much more the tithe?

That anyone encourages believers to tithe, or say a person will not be saved except they tithe or that some laws of Moses still apply to Christians today - that person is saying Jesus' cross is not sufficient and is detracting from Christ and must be resisted.

Your views are interesting but I can't agree on your position on the law.

Though coming from a so called Atheist I recommend the below option 100%. When you have done the natural, then you can begin to check out the spiritual.

Atheist:-D:
Have you gone to a doctor and gotten a thorough assessment? Do that first. Then take a look at changes in your life etc. Focus, ambitions and dedication can be hard to maintain over legthy periods and we always go through periods of highs and lows. try not to allow that get you down. Also, how are you performing on the course? Are things on track or are you struggling a bit? In regards to results of course.

christemmbassey: pls can we know the dispensation and when it began?

From what I know their some bible teachers, grace teachers, that believe the world can be classified into dispensation. I came across dispensational teachings via the teachings of R B Thieme Jr. And I think it best explains why Paul teaches that the Law is abolished in Jesus Cross.

Below is a commentary on dispensationalism. I agree with most of what they teach but only depart from them when they insist that 1Corinth 13 shows that the gifts of the Spirit have ceased in our dispensation. Read:

What is dispensationalism?

by Matt Slick

Dispensationalism is an approach to biblical interpretation which states that God uses different means of working with people (Israel and the Church) during different periods of history, usually seven chronologically successive periods. However, dispensational division of history varies among its adherents from three periods, to four, seven, and eight dispensations. Seven is the most common.

Innocence (Genesis 1 -3) - Adam and Eve before they sinned
Conscience (Genesis 3- - First sin to the flood
Civil Government (Genesis 9-11) - After the flood, government
Promise (Genesis 12-Ex. 19) - Abraham to Moses, the Law is given
Law (Exodus 20 - Acts 2:4) - Moses to the cross
Grace (Acts 2:4 - Revelation 20:3) - Cross to the millennial kingdom
Millennial Kingdom (Rev. 20:4-6) – The rule of Christ on earth in the millennial kingdom
Though dispensationalists share common opinions about interpreting scripture, there are different types of dispensationalist positions.

Classical Dispensationalism
God has different purposes at different times
The Church is a parenthesis in history between the times of God dealing with Israel
There will be a literal Kingdom in heaven and also a Kingdom on earth during the millennial period
Modified Dispensationalism
Two peoples of God: Israel and the Church
Different roles
Salvation is the same for both groups
Church and Israel exist together during the millennium
Progressive Dispensationalism
Israel and the Church are both the people of God
It relies more on covenantal interpretations
Old Testament promises expanded to include the Church
There are still distinctions between Israel and the Church
Israel is still God’s chosen people with a plan from God
Pre-trib rapture is generally held, but not necessary
Dispensationalists, as a whole, seek to interpret the scripture as literally as possible. The positions hold that salvation has always been by faith, but it is manifested differently between Old and New Testaments (Gen. 15:6; Hab. 2:4; Rom. 4:1-5; John 3:16). It accepts God’s covenants as vital parts of dispensational activity, but the primary unit of division is the dispensation (i.e., period of time). There are promises to Israel that are yet to be fulfilled. Israel will be completely restored and be prominent in the world as it carries out God’s promises. The Church may replace Israel to some extent, but not fully. The Church did not exist in O.T. times. Premillennial held by all dispensationalists. Pre-tribulation rapture held by almost all dispensationalists.

Dispensationalism summary

Literal interpretation of the Bible
God works via different arrangements in distinct periods of history
Israel is the literal descendants of Abraham, not spiritual ones
Israel is the heir to the promises made to Abraham about the seed being blessed
Participation in the Abrahamic Covenant is “mainly” by physical birth in Jewish lineage
Two distinct people groups: Israel and the Church
Church began at Pentecost
Salvation is by faith in accordance to the revelation given in a particular dispensation
The Holy Spirit did not indwell people in all dispensations, only during the dispensation of the Church age
Christ will reign in the future 1000 year period which occurs after the rapture

I thank God for your testimony. And I believe God that it shall be permanent. You have a duty though and that is to renew your mind with the word of God, Romans 12:2. You have been healed physically but gaining understanding of Christ via His word will perfect your soul. Your Spirit is renewed and there cannot be an addition to that.

I hope this will help Atheist on this forum to rethink their position on religion.

And this testimony actually confirms my suspicion: many Atheists remains who they are because Christians themselves encourage them on their way because of their pride, inability to explain the gospel beyond bland arguments like "the fool says their is no God".

Atheism, I believe, is not just rebellion against God but a hidden desire to know God, although disguised in atheism.

^^^^^^^^ And the thread comes to an abrupt end. Knowing that you, bassey, opened the thread to know demi's position on healing, abi?

I think the fear is that there is so much abuse and Satan revels in deceiving people with these signs and wonders show biz. Nonetheless, biblical doctrine shows that healing do occur and we can all trust God for some of these interventions in our walk through life and even to help us in ministry to the world.

Peace.

@shdemidemi

When you have time you may discuss your theology exclusively on a new thread

When U reveal your stands haphazardly on other threads it can be difficult to follow you.

Follow the style of Ihedinobi who took time to explain his position on that thread 'Grace came with Jesus...'

For now the debate is to still how to stop the mouth of these neo-Judaizers; a job I think you doing very well.

As much as I agree with shdemidemi on the gospel of grace I do not share his views that healing has ceased with the apostles

I however consider it a minor point of doctrine which can be accommodated

What I cannot accommodate is neo-Judaism

@Ola

U take my post and add with others and then went on to make no point

When you take a vision and make it sole authority, refusing to measure it with scripture, U are on dangerous grounds

Now that aspect of the parable of Lazarus which said we should listen to Moses and the prophets, meant what it said: WE DO NOT NEED PEOPLE RESCUSCITATED FROM THE DEAD TO TELL US OF THE AFTER LIFE, WE HAVE MOSES AND THE PROPHETS - THE BIBLE.

What you are doing by publishing these visions is adding to God's word: and there is a curse that comes with this - read Revelation.

All we need on our journey to the kingdom is in the bible, any other vision is designed to deceive, Colosians 2:18.

When you lack sound understanding of the word and are at a loss to respond to those who refute your false doctrine, you resort visions and revelations. It is the hallmark of false prophets.

Beware!!!

Matthew Nerramore's biggest argument against the tithe came from his discuss on Paul teachings. Here is the whole of Chapter 9 on RIGHTEOUSNESS

If you have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ and have called upon him for salvation, receiving him into your heart and life as Lord and Savior, then you are righteous. Your righteousness is more than just being forgiven of your sins. It is more than just being considered by God as someone who has never done anything wrong. You have the righteousness of someone who has also done everything right, someone who has done all of God's will, has kept all of his law, and has done it all to perfection. That is the righteousness of Christ, that is his perfect standing with the Father, and that is what you have through faith in him. Jesus' relationship to the Father is the definition of righteousness. There is no other kind. That is what you have and you have it now.

Your righteousness was a free gift from God. It was freely given without reservation. It was given by grace alone without any works or deeds on your part whatsoever. It was paid for by the shed blood of Jesus. You received it by faith. It is perfect righteousness. It is the right standing that Jesus Christ has with the Father. It causes the Father to treat you the same as Jesus. It includes all the benefits and privileges of Jesus' relationship to the Father. If it didn't it wouldn't be his righteousness. You have the privilege of accepting it or rejecting it but you do not have the privilege of changing any of its terms or features.

Your righteousness is more than a legal declaration. It is real. It has substance. The message of Paul's epistles is that we have been made to be the actual righteousness of God through Jesus Christ.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. (2 Cor. 5:21)
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Eph. 4:24)
That is the mystery of the gospel, how a man with a sinful nature can be spiritually reborn with the righteous nature of Jesus Christ. It is the story of identification and substitution. Jesus identified with us by first becoming a man and then by bearing our sin, our separation from God, and our curse in order to redeem us. He died a substitutionary death on the cross. He was there in our place.

Jesus was made alive and raised up from the realm of death and eternal judgement when our redemption had been accomplished. He was restored again to perfect standing with the Father, seated at his right hand. Salvation is an exchange. Our old identity and spiritual nature are crucified and put to death with Christ on the cross and we receive his resurrection nature and identity in exchange. By that we also receive his relationship to the Father.

Jesus revealed the mystery to Paul the apostle and inspired him to write it in his epistles. By the power of the Holy Spirit we can understand it and walk in it.

But we speak the wisdom of God in a mystery, even the hidden wisdom, which God ordained before the world unto our glory: (1 Cor. 2:7)
How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) (Eph. 3:3, 4)
The mystery begins with our spiritual union with Jesus Christ.

For we are members of his body, of his flesh, and of his bones. …This is a great mystery: but I speak concerning Christ and the church. (Eph. 5:30, 32)
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: …which is Christ in you, the hope of glory: (Col. 1:26, 27)
Everything that Jesus did at the cross was for us. His death, burial, and resurrection was an eternal event that was accomplished in the spirit realm, free from the limits of time and space. By the work of the Holy Spirit, any man who calls upon the Lord Jesus is supernaturally included with him in that event so that he may receive the results of what God was doing there for all mankind.

We are spiritually immersed into the being of Christ by the Holy Spirit. That is the meaning of baptism. Water baptism is an outward demonstration of what happens in the spiritual realm when a person is placed into Christ.

For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, …and have been all made to drink into one Spirit. (1 Cor. 12:13)
For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. (Gal. 3:27)
But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit. (1 Cor. 6:17)
Our spiritual union with Christ began at the cross. It was there that he made the ultimate identification with us in our sin.

Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death? (Rom. 6:3)
In every subsequent step of the redemptive process, we were included with Christ through the spiritual mystery of our union with him. We received the transforming effects of everything that God was doing in Christ as our substitute. Paul records each aspect as it was revealed to him by Jesus: crucifixion, death, burial, being made alive, being raised up, and being seated at the Father's right hand.

Crucified with Christ
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin. (Rom. 6:6)
I am crucified with Christ: (Gal. 2:20a)
But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world. (Gal. 6:14)
Dead with Christ
For the love of Christ constraineth us; because we thus judge, that if one died for all, then were all dead: (2 Cor. 5:14)
Now if we be dead with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with him: (Rom. 6:
Wherefore if ye be dead with Christ (Col. 2:20a)
For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God. (Col. 3:3)
It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with him, we shall also live with him: (2 Tim. 2:11)
Buried with Christ
Therefore we are buried with him by baptism into death: that like as Christ was raised up from the dead by the glory of the Father, even so we also should walk in newness of life. (Rom. 6:4)
For if we have been planted together in the likeness of his death, we shall be also in the likeness of his resurrection: (Rom 6:5)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Col. 2:12)
Made alive with Christ
Even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, (by grace ye are saved (Eph 2:5)
And you, being dead in your sins and the uncircumcision of your flesh, hath he quickened together with him, having forgiven you all trespasses; (Col. 2:13)
Raised with Christ
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 2:6)
Buried with him in baptism, wherein also ye are risen with him through the faith of the operation of God, who hath raised him from the dead. (Col. 2:12)
If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God. (Col. 3:1)
Seated with Christ
And what is the exceeding greatness of his power to us-ward who believe, according to the working of his mighty power, Which he wrought in Christ, when he raised him from the dead, and set him at his own right hand in the heavenly places,…And you…(Eph 1:19, 20; 2:1a)
And hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus: (Eph. 2:6)
Our spiritual union with Christ and participation with him in every step of his redemptive work is the mystery behind Jesus' statement that we must be born again. Our spirits are re-created and reborn through the process of being made alive with Christ in his resurrection. We are not just covered with a robe of righteousness or merely considered to be righteous. We have been re-created with a righteous new nature and reborn into a new spiritual realm and relationship with God.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. (2 Cor. 5:17)
For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. (Gal. 6:15)
For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus… (Eph. 2:10a)
And that ye put on the new man, which after God is created in righteousness and true holiness. (Eph. 4:24)
Knowing that you have that kind of righteousness, that you are accepted and approved by God and his favor is upon you the same as it is upon Jesus, will affect your life in ways that are beyond comprehension.

What does all this have to do with tithing? The righteous, new-creation man in Christ is a different kind of person than ever existed before the resurrection. He lives in a new spiritual realm with a different relationship to God than anyone had before. He walks with God from the new perspective of spiritual union with Christ. The finished work of Christ is the foundation for everything he thinks and does. He lives and moves and has his being in Christ. He relates to everything from the position of being seated with Christ at God's right hand. No other person in the Bible is an accurate example of how the new-creation man in Christ should live and walk with God. The only true example is the resurrected Lord Jesus Christ and tithing is not part of his life, enthroned on high.

Salvation Is More Than Forgiveness
Salvation has not been understood for what it really is. That's why Christians think God's blessing and provision depend on tithing. They think salvation only includes our forgiveness and eternal destiny in heaven—that God's blessing, grace, and provision, for this present life, are based on things we do. That misunderstanding comes from an Old Covenant mentality. It isn't consistent with our new life in Christ and our relationship to God as sons.

Salvation is everything that God accomplished for our benefit on the cross. It includes everything we will ever receive from God, both now and in eternity. There is no blessing, grace, or provision that wasn't totally paid for at the cross. God has already given it all to us in Christ and we receive it all by faith.

God's work of salvation did not originate in the rational mind of man. No human mind could ever conceive something so wonderful. No reasonable person would dare ask God for the kind of grace that he extended to us through Christ. He gave us everything there was to give and there is nothing left to gain by tithing.

All of God's provision for this life as well as the life to come is only offered on his terms: pure grace through faith. He doesn't give us the option of creating our own hybrid doctrines of grace and works. He won't accommodate our religious systems, even if they are based on the story of someone in the Bible. We are now in the New Covenant and God has no pleasure in doctrines that seek to add to the finished work of Christ. He is pleased by faith that accepts his gift of righteousness and ceases from all personal efforts to achieve it.

The doctrine of tithing dilutes the message of perfect righteousness and complete salvation by free grace alone. It diminishes the goodness of God that has abundantly provided everything we need as a totally free gift with no requirement except faith. God has elevated our relationship with him to a place of honor such that we can now have the joy of living and doing everything from pure motives of love and gratitude, untainted by obligation, self-interest, or fear.

The doctrine of tithing also opens the door to our unseen spiritual enemy, Satan, who constantly seeks for an opportunity to work against us. Any church doctrine that diminishes the finished work of Christ on the cross, in any way, will be exploited by the devil to his greatest possible advantage. God's grace comes through faith. Putting just a little attention on our works is enough to stop it. That is why it only takes one wrong doctrine to nullify the power of Christ's resurrection. Galatians 5:9 says, “A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump.”

Grace and Works Don't Mix
The Bible is emphatic that righteousness by grace cannot be mixed with righteousness by works. They are mutually exclusive. Each one must be all-or-nothing.

And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work. (Rom. 11:6)
In Romans 4 Paul makes it clear that Abraham's righteousness and his receiving of God's promise were based on faith and were a demonstration of God's pure grace, without any works on Abraham's part whatsoever. God's blessing on Abraham had nothing to do with tithing.

For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God. For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness. Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt. But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness. (Rom. 4:2”5)
All of God's promises to us today are obtained by faith through grace.

Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all. (Rom. 4:16)
The book of Romans belabors the point that we are now righteous, that it is all through the work of Christ on the cross, and that it is a free gift. It leaves no room for the idea that tithing could be a requirement for receiving anything that God has provided through Jesus Christ. Romans 8:32 emphasizes the point that everything we receive from God is a free gift:

He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?
Not only did God give his own son for us, he freely gave us every other thing that he had to give. He wasn't looking for anything from us but faith. God delights in faith. Faith pleases him in a way the natural mind cannot comprehend.

Now the just shall live by faith: but if any man draw back, my soul shall have no pleasure in him. (Heb. 10:38)
Faith is the key to everything we receive from God. And since everything we receive from him is by grace, it is no surprise that even our faith is a gift to us from God.

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: (Eph. 2:
The doctrine of tithing cannot be held by people without affecting their whole understanding of life in Christ. It colors their view of every individual subject, such as righteousness, grace, salvation, and blessing. It distorts the message of the finished work of Christ. It neutralizes the power of the New Covenant. It detracts from the glory of being a son of God in Christ, seated with him at the Father's right hand, and reigning in life. It diminishes God's goodness, it is a hindrance to his working, and it is inferior to the relationship that he expects to have with his sons.

The Father has given everything to the Son, Jesus, withholding nothing. The entire universe, every natural and spiritual dimension, now belongs to Christ and together with him we were made joint heirs of it all. There is nothing left to gain by tithing. All that remains for us is to lay aside the old low-realm mentalities of life and to grow up into full stature in Christ and begin to live like mature sons of God.

In TITHING: LOW REALM,OBSOLETE AND DEFUNCT, Matthew E. Narramore, made some statement worth qouting
see http://www.tekoapublishing.com/books/tithing/index.html

People don't think that the doctrine of tithing is a message of righteousness by works. But if all of God's redemption, protection, and blessing depend on tithing, then what good is the righteousness we have been given as a free gift? They don't mean to say it but the righteousness they leave us with isn't good for anything by itself. So it isn't righteousness at all.
If failure to tithe makes me a God-robber, then my righteousness depends on tithing. If failure to write out the first check on pay day to the local church causes me to lose the favor of God on my life, then my righteousness must depend on doing that. If tithing is what redeems the remaining 90 percent of my paycheck, then the blood of Jesus did not redeem it. If a curse is going to come upon me for not tithing, then Christ has not redeemed me from the curse of the Law.
- Chapter 8

Danfo: I think the information below may come as a shock to some people here:


Catholicism by Matt Slick

Salvation, in Roman Catholicism, is a process with many steps: Actual Grace, Faith, Good Works, Baptism, Participation in the Sacraments, Penance, Indulgences, and Keeping the Commandments. Basically, salvation is attained through baptism and good works. It is maintained by good works and participation in the sacraments. If lost, it is regained through the sacrament of Penance which only a Roman Catholic priest can administer. Add to this purgatorial cleansing after a person dies, and you can see that salvation is an arduous process.

In Catholicism, a person can gain salvation and lose it many times depending on the number of sins committed, their severity, and how much of the sacraments that they participate in -- in order to regain grace which enables them to do good works by which they are justified. Furthermore, justifying grace is infused into the Catholic upon baptism and via the sacraments. This grace can be gradually lost through venial sins or forfeited all together with mortal sins. ....

http://carm.org/catholic-salvation-regain

The mystery behind the great danfo is revealed. He is Roman Catholic. He can loose his salvation. See where pentecostals got there doctrine from... Catholics. No wonder the morbid hatred for Paul; will Roman Catholics not hate him forever who through his writting delivered the church from the reign of Popery 1600 years after his death.

And some of these neo-Judaizers are trying to return us back, not to bondage to the Pope but to little popes called general overseers.

@Olaadegbu

Why do you have to depend on vision and revelations in heaven to believe what you should about God's word? Is the word not enough again? Peter was on the mount with Jesus but said that there is a more sure word of prophecy - the Bible. Paul visited heaven but could not utter a word - he could not even mention he was the one that made the trip. So why all these.

When I dicussed these people who resort to vision to teach doctrine on NL with a Pastor friend, he said that this one is even small. That the days to come, angels will come down to earth and preach false doctrines (Galatians 1:8,9) and the likes of the OP will believe them. The word of God is sufficient, sir.

@Bidam

The people who teach Word of Faith do not know what Paul taught. They mis-interprete Paul and the outcome is the gibberish yourself and other neo-Judaizers spew out here.

But then Paul did talk about these Word of Faithers:

1. Act20: He spoke of how grievous wolves will enter the flock of God seeking a following (or church growth or mega churches)

2. Timothy: He taught how some will say that godliness is gain or the fruit of living right is God's blessing; who teach that Christians going through challenges, financial or health, are suffering Satan attack or have disobeyed God. They do not have anywhere in their doctrine that includes divine discipline (Heb 12)

3. Peter, Jude and John condemned these faith teachers, and Jesus commended those who can test them to know if they are true and have found them to be false in His letters in Revelation

Faith teachers are the enemies of Christ's cross, their god is their bellies and bc of them the way of the Lord is blspememed.

@OP

You know error by the fruit it produces

1. When you teach tithe and the result is Pastors living ostentatious lifestyle setting wrong examples for the coming generation, your doctrine is false

2. When you resort to extra biblical visions and prophesy to lend credence to doctrinal issues and do not allow the bible to speak for itself, you're teaching heresies

3. When the fruit of your life is a far fetch from what obtained in Jesus and His Apostles lives and times, you are teaching errors

4. When you condemn what Jesus praises, or when you praise what Jesus condemns, you're teaching doctrines of demons

5. When you love what God hates: e.g. Money, houses, Jets, etc, and you give the impression that except you are Wealthy you are not born again (professing godliness is gain), you are teaching doctrines of demons.

We can all sit back under our phariseetical garb and proclaim restitution, tell the truth and leave the outcome to God, but such advice betray hypocrisy bc how many of us can really do that? As if we don't know how the job market is worldwide today.

The OP needs sincere advice and not phariseetical ones. I advice you, OP, to take out time and seek God on what to do. The Lord direction may vary: he may say restitute, he may say do not. Most importantly let him lead U.

I would advice that you see a respected Xtian leader, a Pastor, friend or even Parent and share it with them. They see U physically and can identify firsthand how it feels wearing those shoes.

As for tithing, there is no evidence in the NT you expected to tithe as a Christian. You may study the website below to find out.

I wish U the best and do tell us how it goes.

To conclude my submission for the moment:

The chief error of the Word of Faith moment is their penchant to confuse Law with grace. What however one discovers is that the proponents of these teaching subscribe only to those aspect of the law that benefit them and their ministries. Eg, the fact that Abraham was wealthy and so every man of faith must be wealthy; subscription to tithe and firstfruit paying; re-enacting the levithical priesthood and undermining the priesthood of all believers; and lately even re-course to wearing priestly garments. Parts of the law like keeping the Sabbath, taking care of widows, orphans and poor, that do not profit them, they discard.

And with all due respect, Disciples of these false teachers on NL are the like of the OP - ihedinobi, Bidam, Alwaystrue, danfo, MostHigh and a legion of others I call neo-Judaizers. One of their major Xtics is their pride and unteachableness; not to talk of their penchant to twist scriptures and argue without end...

When I was in JSS3, i came across a book titled THE COSMIC POWER WITHIN YOU. The theme of that book was that every human has a power within him, which if harnessed can bring health and wealth. The author did not refer to Jesus, his death or resurrection. But the book was replete with testimonies of healing and financial breakthroughs.

I now know that the man was a New Ager but truth is his message differ nothing from Hagin, etc, except that the latter based their teaching on Mark 11:24.

The teaching of Word of Faith is that a human being can exert HIS faith in God so much that he will see results (many times with or without recourse to God's will). The man is the centre and his pleasure, not God or Jesus, is the centre of this teaching. His happiness, success and well being is the focus and not God's will.

Most of the literature of these faith teachers rely more on testimonies and result and not simple faith - as scripture commands: the just shall live by faith.

My story...

I became a Xtian in 1998 and attended a new Gen Church. Same time I came across books that explained the gospel of grace. I found there was a wide difference btw what I was hearing in church and what some of these literature taught. Eg

1. No one in church taught how to handle betting sins but these books spoke of growth in grace and bible confirmed it

2. My pastors were overly concerned with revivals, miracles, prosperity; these didn't minister to my need. I was attracted more to teachings that exalted the glory of God's kingdom

3. I could not see sincere love among the brethren. The church seem to be an avenue for out doing each other.

4. I came to dislike the legion of ministers that graced our pulpits; they sounded more like noise makers

5. All these drew me to the NT, the letters of Paul, were I discover for myself the glorious gospel of God's grace to sinful man.

6. I would later discover that much of the teachings I heard in church was the prosperity gospel

My position is stated below and I hope to shed light on them as we progress:

1. The Word of Faith movement as founded by E W Kenyon has no sound/scriptural root. The proponents of it, the likes of Hagin, Oral Roberts, etc, are prosperity gospellers, proponents of a false gospel; and the progenitors of the error that pervade our local churches in Nigeria today.

2. This gospel has been propagated via false means; chief among them the TITHE.

3. Miracles are the children's bread and there is no scriptural evidence they ceased.

4. God delights in the prosperity of the saint but our prosperity is NOT his chief concern. Rather the prosperity of our souls.

5. There is a need for the church to return to the ORTHODOX gospel of God's grace. The gospel Paul preached, in Jesus name; the gospel rediscovered @ the Reformation. The gospel many sound orthodox churches were founded on, prior to the coming of these modern day money gobblers, popularly known as New Generation Churches.

Thanks Frosbel for the prompt response. But...

The lake of fire seem to me a place of eternal torment too. So assuming you are right, hell is not immediate but eventual, I still believe there is a reason to fear the place. abi?

I agree that the present description of hell by many religiously folks is repulsive and paints God in an evil light but if it will still end in a lake of fire, are we not saying the same thing?

This is no interrogation but a sincere search for the truth... thanks.

Frosbel

Your write up generates questions as U will expect but while the article sounds nice, I cannot find in it any analysis of the myriads of scriptures that makes reference to hell.

Now someone said that hardly is there a mention of hell after the gospel but Jesus spoke of a God who can destroy body and soul in hell for all eternity. He said we should fear Him. I cannot find the ref' now but know what I mean.

How do U explain that?

@Shdemidemi
Like Ayoku said, well done at trying to enlighten these neo-Judaizers, including the new one, Danfo, with his morbid hatred for Paul.

Some of us have lost the patience at such effort.

Folks, never mind these guys that have derailed my thread. Posts are still welcome on the theses I suggested in the OP: Atheism is Another Religion.

Both Idahosa and T B Joshua have a problem here

One curses and the other has powers to return to sender...

And for all those who have decided to deify T B Joshua and say no one should speak against him, you also have a problem!

In the long run the Church benefits from grace giving. This way:

When Pastors understand grace and preach it, and make people appreciate it, they will eventually get people so en raptured by God's love that they don't just give 10%, they give all they have.

I can say that I would not be surprised if people die and will all they have to the church for gospel propagation. It was grace giving that those who brought the gospel to Africa enjoyed, and not tithe.

When people give bc they have being touched by God's grace, a time will come that true servants of God will announce to the church for people to stop giving: 'we have enough..' they will say.

Tithing may bring quick money but it would be as a result of fear, so they can be blessed and bc men have succeded in binding others.

The tithe issue has been over flogged on NL and many of the Masters are tired of fighting it. But I only call upon them not to give up..., like it did with me, it bearing fruits.

PLS STOP THE TITHE FRAUD!!!

We see grace giving in the NT in the women who supported Jesus ministry (there's no record of Jesus demanding tithe from them); we see it in the first church with people like Barnabas selling a plot of land and giving the apostles; we see it in the lives of the Phillipaians who supported Paul's ministry; etc. In all of these cases, tithes or firsfrutes where never collected.

Grace giving appreciates everything God has done and has giving to the individual. This individual, without coercion, or obligation, decides to give back to God's work.

The beuty of grace giving is that it is only done by people who God has touched by His grace. So you will not find lottery winners, thieves, kidnappers or company robbers giving in this category.

It will also mean less cash around in church bc very few people understand and have tasted of God's grace. It would mean only true MOG will be found in ministry bc there will be little careless cash for anyone to spend. It would reduce church proliferation.

We've had people come to NL asking if they could tithe lottery money; we've had armed robbers and kidnappers tithe stolen money; many yrs ago Oyakhilome refused to return cash stolen from a top hotel in Lagos but given to his church as tithe and offering. These stories lend a hand to the fact that there something skewed about tithing.

Now if grace giving is what is practised today we will not have those people above giving at all. So what is grace giving?

Grace giving is free will offering. It is giving as a result of what God has given us. In the OT we have a glimpse into grace giving. Moses ask the people to give towards the building of the ark. The people took out of the bounty they had gotten off the Egyptians and gave so much that they had to be restrained from giving more. In Numbers some men went to war and returned successful. After giving as God instructed (and this was not tithe), they still gave more for God sparing their lives.

TBC.

Consider

1. NT giving says we should give not out of compulsion: 10% of an income sounds like compulsory.

2. All the example on tithing you just stated are OT, is there a NT verse that commands tithing exclusively for Christians.

3. As important as tithe is to today's church, Paul wrote more than three pastoral epistles and Jesus sent seven letters to Churches BUT both of them, 'forgot' to mention the tithe. Was it a slip of mind or a coincidence?

4. In all mention of tithe in the OT and NT, the commodity to be tithed were agric products, how and when did it transform to monthly salaries?

5. If an atheist were to give his life to Christ on NL, how would you explain to him that his salvation is not complete until he tithes first.

6. Lastly, for now, consider Colosians 2:16: judge no one on Sabbath, holy days, meat, drink - all OT ordinances, that must include tithe circumcision, etc.

7. Tithing is of the law, man, and it is bondage at best and a fraud at worst.

check out
www.tithing101.com
for an adequate response to your thread

Ayoku had mentioned somewhere that discuss on Law and Grace leads to war: third world war. This thread confirms that statement.