₦airaland Forum

@Ayokun

I was trying to send this via Facebook but couldnt find you there.

I was reading Galatians 5 yesterday and was surprised to see that Paul's train of discuss followed what you advocate

- Keep the liberty of the Spirit
- Law abolished
- Walk in the Spirit
- Bear the Fruit of the Spirit

U mention the third item often in your discuss but have never elaborated on it. Will U pls show us on a new thread what it means to walk in the Spirit, Obey the Spirit, etc, as a NT injunction.

Hopefully that will put an end to those who argue that proponents of the gospel of grace are lawless.

*DrummaBoy returns to thread...*

We had a certain MostHigh come here using high sounding Jewish
terminologies to advocate law keeping, including the Sabbath.

None of the neo-Judaizers saw anything wrong with his discuss bc he
advocates the law and the tithe.

Que: How many Pentecostal, tithe collecting churches keep the Sabbath or fellowship on Saturday? Answer: nill.

Deduction: If the keeping of the Sabbath brought any monetary gain, modern day Pentecostal would have subscribed to it. Same way they have re-enacted the firstfruit. They do not practice Sabbath honoring, not bc they understand that the law has been abolished, but bc there is nothing to GAIN from it.

Conclusion: I am saying that it is either we keep the whole law or we consider the law abolished in Jesus' cross. Keeping some that benefit us and abolishing others is hypocrisy and it is equal to breaking the
whole law.

LogicBoy, I like your thoughts and may not be able to answer your question right away but I will try

Well if you ever become a Christian, I believe God will have you do NOTHING

Theism and Atheism are based on understanding. You are what you believe.

And Christianity is understanding God. So If you ever become a Christian it is bc U have understood God as far as your life is concerned and whatever you must do afterwards will be clear to you

My Christian brethren do not have any idea of handling atheist. I do not claim to either. But to snare, insult or condemn them is the last thing to do. So far all the answers from Christians on this thread has been WRONG

Can't you see? The thread wants to bring us out and make us say all the wrong things. So I suggest let us play along, love these atheist guys and try to understand them.

I believe as we relate at some level, the understanding will come and salvation, that is understanding God, shall be given.

Stay tuned...

There is no point continuing the discuss

MostHigh has resorted to insults and curses

Bidam is obviously unteachable

The title of the thread says it all: THERE ARE ANTAGONIST OF THE GOSPEL OF GRACE IN JESUS', Paul's and EVEN OUR TIME.

May God deliver them from their ways.

I however rejoice that I am not alone, in Nigeria, among those who uphold the true gospel.

I end my discuss here by stating: though I and others do not uphold any aspect of the Mosaic law, we however, uphold and advocate the law of Spirit and Life, the law of Love.

'Thass all...' I recommend you all to OUR OGA AT THE TOP!!!

lol!!!!

Peace!!!!!

Most High, read and answer

COLOSIAN 2:16

It answers both the question of the sabath, tithe and every law you are calling us to observe

MostHigh has totally betrayed his thinking by that thread he opened arguing for Sabbath worship. That is the foundation on which he argues for the law.

Where do you begin with an individual like that?

The likes of Bidam, Image123, and Ihedinobi can still be accommodated but MostHigh is way off

Does it matter which day we take to worship. Each day we worship God now.
My friend, the leading error of the Adventist is to take Sabbath worship as a prime doctrine: Colosians 2:16
How does it affect your salvation or relation with God?

Pastor R B Thieme pastored the Berachah church for over 50 yrs b4 passing away in 2009.
He taught God's word with earnestness and still has his tapes and books around today.

He did not preach tithe but the Berachah church people must be crazy givers bc hundreds of request for his tapes and books are made to the ministry almost daily and the ministry send them to people worldwide free of charge.

I know bc I have benefited.

They add a little cerveat though: That God gives Bible doctrine and in our bid to reflect his grace wish to desciminate them free of charge. If however You're blessed by this ministry you may wish to support financially as you feel led but no compulsion is placed on individuals to give.

I do not know a single church in Nigeria that does this, though many collect tithe.

That for me is true ministry and the work/result of a true pastor.

ayoku777: I'm glad this topic was well received, I'm sure we've all increased in knowledge, no matter what side we argued from. My summary is more of an observation and an advice.

People try to make the scriptures say what they want it to say to fit into what they can rationalize. Grace is truly mindblowing and that we're now righteous without obedience to the law sounds too good to be true. But instead of rejecting truth because it sounds too good to be true or deflating it into sizes we can rationalize, we should rather ask the Holy Spirit to open our understanding to comprehend it as it is.

I believe if all advocates of works can do this, we will all come to the unity of the faith and of the knowledge of the son of God, of which the gospel of infinite Grace is definitely one. The righteousness of Christ is the justification of all who are in Him through faith, whether or not they obey the law; and fellowship with the Spirit is the key to perfection and glorification.

Thanks to all who participated with their comments and views (both for and against)and those who only viewed and followed the topic. May Christ open our hearts and minds and fill them with the knowledge and understanding of His person. Amen. Be blessed - Ayoku

A Thousand likes for this!!!

Ayoku
One should congratulate you here that your very first thread hits 11pages in about 4 day?! You sure were led to open it. Can we have a summary from you on this thread?

One obvious fact here is that most commentator hardly shift their grounds but that shouldn't discourage bc many who read but do not comment go away with something for their edification.

I for one I am becoming more and more convinced that those who question the whole gospel of grace may be serving another god, not our Lord and Master Jesus. Paul warned Timothy to take heed to his doctrine bc thereby he would save himself and his listeners. Their gospel may very well not save anyone.

I stop here and look fwd to ur summary.

And they have further taken their deceit to include FIRSTFRUIT. i like to tell this story in regards to firstfruit.

A lady moved to lagos from my local church bc of work. In The church she joined d pastor began asking her for firstfruit. She reported d matter to my pastor here in Ibadan.

My Pastor then explained to d church that firstfruit is tithe and no one need pay it, except the tithe.

Now if we were to return a hundred yrs ago, the matter in question would have been tithe not firstfruit.

Eventually with time and indoctrination people would take what they hear as biblical without questioning the basis. If my Pastor had lived in the 19century he would probably have come to the same conclusion on tithing same way he did on firstfruit.

Let me add to the issue of history
1. There is no evidence that first generation Christians paved tithe
2. There is no evidence tithing was re discovered in the reformation
3. No one has spoken of Wesley churches tithing
4. There is no evidence tithe was used to support early missionaries in Africa
Tithing is wholly an unorthodox practise popularized by prosperity gospellers

m.k.o2005:
The question u should have asked yourself long before now should be ; 'why do i pay my tithe ?'
If u can answer the above question then it will help in your decision !
Good luck in your new found stands !
God help us

To say the truth, 15yrs ago when I came to Christ and this brother I used to play Chess with got wind of the fact that I was saved, took me aside and explained that there were a no. of things I should now begin to do. He listed them and tithe was one of them. I obeyed bc he said it, not bc I saw it in scriptures or bc anyone taught me. Months later I read a literature that encouraged me to continue. The church I attended: it was a no go area; you either tithe or you are excommunicated (something of that nature).

However the more I read Paul words and understod the gospel of grace, the more I questioned the tithe but never had the courage to stop. Until... I took the bold step two month ago.

Is there a reason to tithe? The answer is NO. The only reason to tithe include the following

1. If the NT can show that Pastors, etc, are an ordained preisthood, that do not possess lands, etc, and must be supported by the Church, same way the levites where.
2. If we can show that the tithe that God demands is raw money and not crops and animals
3. If we can show that though the Mosaic laws are abolished, the issue of tithing have been re-enacted with our own peculiar dispensation
4. If we can find one single scripture in the NT that teaches directly or even indirectly that the NT believer must tithe
5. If tithing can be said to be not obligatory, nor is it compulsory, the kind of giving that Paul encouraged in 2 corinthians

Now my question to you is this: We have a forum, a religion forum, that is replete with atheist; many of whom have morbid hatred for Christianity. If by the grace of God one of them comes to faith in Christ. What will you tell him to do, to continue in God and to grow in grace into Maturity? Will you encourage them to begin to tithe and tell him that if he does not tithe he will go to hell?(Now that line sounds a lot like the Judaizers who, in Acts 15, wanted the gentiles to be circumcized to be truly saved. Thank God Paul resisted them, and we would continue to resist modern day Judaizers also)

If you read the testimony of Abraham Yakubu you will notice that before that accident occurred he heard a voice in his heart that the vehicle will have accident. Then he started praying that God should cleanse him with the blood of Jesus and remove every spot or wrinkle on his garment.

My major grouse with that testimony. Those who will be saved are those who have cleansed themselves with the blood of Jesus. What does that mean? So it what we must do that will save us? There is not such thing as the gift of God's righteosness? If our actions where so perfect, including the ability to confess before death, why did God say in Isaiah that our righteousness where like filthy rags (women's soiled and bloody napkins)?

What happens to those who die suddenly? What you are saying is not the gospel of Jesus and that is why I am convinced today that Abraham Yakubu did not see a revelation from Jesus. He may have seen one from another Jesus, but not the Jesus of the NT.

So I advice when you discuss issues like this, limit your discuss to what is written, the bible, that is the more sure word of testimony we are called to base our faith on. Not visions and revelations that come from the pit of hell.

There is certainly a place for confession of sin. To restore fellowship with the Father and the Holy Spirit (1Jn 1:9) but even that is wholly imperfect. WE ARE SAVED BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH.

BTW your definition of grace is wholly flawed. But that is for another day.

I woke up in the midnight and I was depressed. The posts from the likes of Luluosas and the rest, that those who do not tithe will go to hell was getting to me and casting me in great doubt about my decision to stop tithing. I believe God reached me through Jesus words in Matthew 24 where he stated in the beginning of his discuss that we should not be deceived for MANY will come in my name and even claim to be Christ. That was the key for me. These revelations saying Jesus said those who don't tithe will go to hell are demonic manifestations only out to deceive. That is why their proponents do not sit down to do any sound biblical analysis the way Goshen and the likes of Ihednobi and Bidam do. They trust in their revelation but these revelations only reveal another Jesus.

Then I saw Paul admonision to the Galatians in 3:1, O foolish (Drummaboy) who has bewitched you; (was it not) before you Christ was clearly shown crucified. My grief this morning was a result of bewitching.

And to further assure me, from my phone, I read those long post from Chinedu202000. I read every word and they were a great source of encouragement.

I have laid my hand on the plow and there is no going back; tithing is not a NT injuction. May God grant that I grow in the grace of giving, while I leave tithe to the Judaizers. God's sure word of prophecy, the bible, is sufficient for me.

Goshen360: King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 2 Peter 1:3

Many years back, I left the motherland for the U.S nation and I have lived by faith in my new found land. The journey was rough at some point and many times, but by faith and patience carrying on by the Grace of God, I have come to appreciate the goodness and Grace of God given to me as a free gift for life and godliness. Today, the United State Citizenship and Immigration Services granted me a permanent resident (Green Card).


English Standard Version (©2001)
Thanks be to God for his inexpressible gift! 2 Corinthians 9:15

Congratulations my brother, my friend, my teacher and a master in religious opinions.

Where are we gonna wash it na

For those who criticize Aribisala, remember that even Jesus said religious leaders of his day had turned God's house to a den of thieves. These men, Jesus said, loved money, and twisted scripture to take advantage of the people, saying they need not support their parent but simply bring the money to the temple (see Matthew 23).

Can we confidently say that our religious leaders are any different? Do men's nature change over time? They Loved money then, they love it even more now. If he referred to them as thieves then, could it be that he is still calling them thieves still via the writing of Aribisala?

While we are at it, I invite you to peruse this web page on the tithe matter: www.tithing101.com

Biblical facts about the tithe:

1. The tithe was never money in both OT and NT. And money had been a means of exchange even before Abraham. So tithing an income, cash, has no biblical basis.

2. Abraham tithed pre-law; so also did he circumcise on the Eight day pre-law. But Paul condemned the latter as a NT practise, so we can assume the same goes for tithe.

3. Tithing as practised today follow Mosaic law but there were two other types of tithing. Why are we to practise just one now.

4. Jesus referral to the tithe in Matthew 23:23 was directed to the pahrisees, the Jews.

5. Jesus lived and died under the law; he approved the tithe then bc he came to fulfill all righteousness.

6. Paul or any other apostle never mentioned tithing as a NT practise though they encouraged giving.

7. NT giving by grace demands 100% and not 10%. We are called to grow in the grace of giving and not to be fixed on a legalistic 10%.

frosbel: There can be no compromise with this doctrine of demons , because that is exactly what this tithe LIE is.

People who keep preaching it despite evidence to the contrary are truly blinded , possibly by money.

FROSBEL'S IS BACK!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
HURRAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I honestly did not want to join the fray here because now that the thread is front page, those who will contribute will no longer be the religious section adherents and thus to many opinion and long thread, while Seun smiles to the Bank. But here is a familiar one directing this to me and let me lend a voice here:

[quote author=coogar]you left the peak of intelligence and jumped into the pits of idiocy.

Wow. Kinda judgemental, don't you think? Thanks for the compliment! LOl!

you stopped paying tithes so how progressive have you been since then?

Progressive. Hmm... you mean have joined ACN? Or you are refering to my experiences. Whether by this time, the "devourer" would have had me for lunch? Well, since you asked, my experiences have been fine. And I cannot remember scripture saying that our practice of religion should be based on our "experiences". Last I checked the just shall live by faith. Or you want me to change gods like that king in the OT, who left Jehovah for a foreign god because he felt that god was "blessing" those people. No wonder folks are deceived into tithing. It is all for an experience: a seeking after blessing. I am blessed; I do not need to do anything to add or subtract from it. Again, my experience has been good.

what have you done with the 10% you have refused to pay?

Do you want it? Lol!!
I have used it for what people use money for: SPEND IT! I have honored the Lord with my finances which means being a faithful steward of it: giving of a free will; looked after my family so I am not an infidel; payed rent; etc.

you probably spent it in beer parlours or whorehouses?

No I didn't. And that statement betrays a hidden thought in you. To him that is pure, all things are pure. Why should it be whores and beer parlour your mind wanderered to? Is it possible they are your secret fantasies but religious bondage has held you down?

ask yourself this question - without the funding, would the catholic have reached africa and the other parts of the world? without televangelism, would the gospel have reached everywhere like it is today - what do you think pay for these things? manna from heaven?

To stop to tithe after 15yrs, I have asked myself hundreds of questions and my final decision is based on the answers I derived. Do your studies well, most orthodox churches did not spread the gospel on the strenght of tithing but based on free will offering. Hudson Taylor went to China and without any support based, talkless of tithe, formed the greatest mission society of his time.

How much tithe did Paul receive to conquer nations with the gospel, in his numerous missionary journeys? He wrote over and over again how his ministry was funded: 1. He made tents - he worked with his hands. 2. He had support from very few churches like the Phillipian church. 3. He had those who hosted him in all his mission journeys.
How much tithe did Jesus receive to carry out his mission work?

Now you are talking of tithe being used for mission. How many tithe collecting churches support missionaries, mission works or even have lively misssionary activities? Do we not see what they use their monies to do: 1. Build bigger building. 2. Make Pastor comfortable. 3. Build businesses likes schools, etc. 4. Buy and maintain private jets.


Now the only argument for the tithe that I have not found a convincing answer to are those who claim to have seen visions of heaven and hell and who say Jesus said those who don't pay tithe will go to hell. But even that begs the question: how come Jesus never speaks of those who misuse the tithe and offering and also tell us what their end will be? Could this vision be clearly designed to further bind God's people into the tithe bonday?
I found my own answer to the vision this morining in Jesus words about the last day (matthew 24). Jesus said we should beware of those who will come to deceive us, they will say they are Christ (or better still have a message from Christ): vision and all, that cannot be coroborated in scriptures.

I'm still praying and studying the tithe subject; for now most of what I have found speaks against tithing. The day e Lord convinces me about tithe paying, I will come here and open a thread about it (with the hope it makes front page). While I agree with Aribisala on his position on the tithe(as he has used sound scriptural references), I do not neccesarilly agree with everything he writes on religion.

Atlast this thread makes front page.

For those who are new to the argument, know that it is probably the most intense subject discussed on the religion section and hundreds of threads can testify to it. My own thread https://www.nairaland.com/1239719/questions-frosbel-tithing on the subject was simply explosive. At the end of the argument I joined the host of those who do not pay tithe and have not payed tithe for two months now, having payed tithe for 15yrs following my conversion to Christianity.

This thread, on Femi Abirisala, writing against tithe, has only rejuvenated the argument against it. Old foes meet here again and the argument will most likely be as it had been on other thread. The only difference now is that we will have a lot of "outsiders" contribute to the discuss.

I predict that the anti-tithers will win (again) bc the idea of couphing out 10% of tones gross pay will never go down well with anyone. But nonetheless let me summarise how the discuss will go:

Pro tithers will say: Jesus supported the tithe in Matthew 23:23 by a single statement "... do not leave the others undone...". They will also say that Malachi 3 is an OT injuction which still applies to NT Christians. ETC.

Anti tithers will say: The law has been abolished in the NT. Tithing today is according to Mosaic law and there is no point tithing when we do not follow other Mosaic injuctions. They argue that Abraham paying tithe is not a basis for arguing for tithe pre-law, as Abraham only payed tithe that once, also he tithed spoil not his income and that after that practice he returned the remaining spoil to the owners. (I add there too that Circumcision, as Abraham practiced, was pre-law but no one circumcizes their children today on the eight day; those who do, do it on medical and hygeine basis).

So welcome to a religious section discuss but ensure that your contribution is according to the word.

A vision of heaven/hell one Abraham Yakubu had the following flaws
1. Christian ladies painting and wearing wigs, etc, will go to hell.
2. Mary was weeping for Catholics who were worshipping her. I thought 'there would neither be weeping or mourning' in heaven?
3. The doctrine of saved by grace is not exemplified at all; it all depends on holiness, what U do and if U were lucky to have confessed ur sin before death
4. The fact that salvation was not sufficient
5. Fear, fear and fear: Are saved by fear or by grace through faith, all a gift of God?
6. A vision with a certain bias to a denominational outlook. I believe when Jesus will come we will all see our inadequacies. No will be perfect.

What I see in these things are demonic manifestation, made out to deceive the simple in heart. And bc they abound more and more is the very reason the true gospel must be proclaimed in earnest.

Goshen and Pastor kun, pls can u both add a word to a thread on visions christemmbassey just opened
thanks

I do not doubt the fact that God could give visions of heaven and hell but God revelation should minister edification and comfort to the hearers and not fear. 1Cor 14.

Also, we have the bible, a more sure word of prophecy. This was Peter statement after he talked about a vision of Jesus on the mount. He said the bible was surer.

Scripture command we test all Spirit. Paul said if anyone preaches another gospel, including an angel, let him be accursed. I believe he envisioned these times when visions from angels will abound.

Alex who spoke of conversion and claims they are genuine, how can we tell? How long will fear and not faith sustain a man in religion? I for one was drawn to Jesus bc I caught a glimpse of His intense love for me. Its been a love affair since then, not fear.

I stop here for now and invite my master Goshen, Ayokun, Pastor Kun, etc, to lend a voice to this discuss

Bidam: I agree that we are blessed with all spiritual blessings in the heavenlies. But faith is our response to God and NOT God response to us.Just like you said about "maturity". The christian journey is based on revelations and experience and not only revelations. It is rather pathetic that in our generation "we speak more than we lived the LIFE". An experience is God showing you His promises in His Word and then giving you the principles/revelations on how to obtain these great and precious promises, bringing a problem or test to see whether you are able to apply the principles He Has taught you to solve the problem before you can be able to lay claim of your possessions after you have passed the test or solved the problem.In that sense i believe God promises are conditional.
If you read through out the scriptures anywhere you see God's promises you will see "IF" a conditional statement attached to it. even salvation has an "If" attached to it cos if you don't believe and respond how will you be saved?

I refuse to agree with the bolded. The just shall live by faith, not by experiences. Faith commeth by hearing the word of God: we know whath that really means is gaining understanding into the word of God and that understanding is revelation.
So regardless of experiences, God calls us to gain understanding into his word. This is what builds faith, with which we can surmount any experience: good or bad.

Now the major challenge with folks like you Bidam here is not understanding where grace and law belongs in God's word: rather it is a security in your works. You have not really gotten to that point in your Christian life where you understand that it is not so much of what you do that earns God's favor but what He has done: Jesus Cross. What you do only follows that. But then when you understand the cross and what it has done for you, what you do becomes a no issue. You don't put value on your works. The proof of that is that you would be able to let other Christians be what God wants them to be. You don't become a spiritual police, determining who should be blessed, how they should be blessed "IF" they need to be blessed and all of that.

You are too busy gazing on the grace of God made abundant to a sinner like yourself that you are bothered what others do or fail to do.

So, yes, the OT had "IFs" to enjoy God's blessing but for the NT, the "IF" ends with a person coming to faith in Christ. That minute on, there is no more "IF", no more condition to be blessed. Rather HE IS BLESSED!. And he has resumed a most glorifying work with God, that would take him through his sanctification process - which is his works - and culminate in his glorification.

In Christendom, the most holy people sometimes experience the most excruciating experiences. While the most carnal people sometimes enjoy the best of this life. We are blessed because of our position in Christ, not because of what we do or do not do.

Let me end the discuss with a story of Luther and his assistant Phillip Melachton. Luther once told Phillip "Sin lustfully, so grace may abound to you". He was not encouraging Phiillip to sin but he realized that Phillip was really not enjoying the grace of God because he had so much security in his works. He felt that if Phillip was to fall into a great sin, like fornication, when he is restored to God, he would appreciate what it means to be forgiven. He would see more of what God has done for him and not what he can do for God (eg, holiness). I have a feeling that folks like you Bidam need to sin lustfully so that grace may abound to you.

nagoma: " Out of School a man is not judged by his grades ; but by the changes he brings and the promises he keeps". We know how much of mess the banking system was in when Soludo left the CBN and we don't know how many promises he kept as a public servant. Soludo's response to El - Rufa'i is ungentlemanly and extremely unsatisfactory for the intellectual he claims to be and it all sounds like sour grapes. People who can write do so all their lives and if Soludo is waiting for the end of his career to start writing , tell him that he is late by 4 years now when his career ended shamefully.

^^^^^^^^ A million likes for the above.
Soludo has neither impressed by his performace in office nor by his reponse here. He has only taken time to show that the mallam was right: Soludo is a politician and he is the one guilty of being an intellectual fraud.

@Bidam
The promises WERE conditional in the OT but not in the NT
But that as it may we have a new ball game in the NT
1. We have a father who disciplines his children, whether they fail or are good, to attain greater holiness. EG, Jesus, who was perfect, learnt obedience by the things he suffered
2. There is spiritual discipline for sins committed by Christians, for maturity sake and for deference.
3. The whole process of bringing sons to maturity is the work of God's grace called sanctification. So whether it is discipline or blessing, the Christian is blessed.
4. That is why Goshen position that we are blessed is correct: bc Good or bad, God is working all things out for our good: WE ARE A BLESSED PEOPLE!!!

A difficult one indeed but
1. Respect the individual freedom of choice
2. Do not discriminate against him and discourage others doing same
3. If he/she is a close friend, I'll try to commune with them to know what led to the decision
4. Make scripture position clear on the matter to them without outright condemning them
5. Maintain friendship but keeping a safe distance
6. Love them all the same and pray to God for a heart change
7. Wait to see what God will do: he has the heart of men in his hands; doesn't he.

These steps apply to atheists and other weird philosophical position also

I just read Femi Aribisala piece on Tithing someone splashed here on religious section. I Google the name and I came across a couple of articles on him in a website belonging to Vanguard.
I read an interesting piece by him called 'To Hell With Hell', where he argued, a typical Frosbel line, that there is no hell.
Well folks, I come again with my questions: Whose is Femi Aribisala? What is his theological persuasion? Does he pastor a church? Etc.
Thanks in anticipation of your helpful response.

May add a voice here
1. God is holy. His holiness is awesome.
2. Those who think they are righteous bc they are not in an obvious sin deceive themselves bc they will be found unholy before a righteous God.
3. A gift of perfect righteousness on Christ merit alone can earn God's kingdom
4. Holiness, without which no man can see God, is proof true regeneration not a means to God's kingdom
5. The law is abolished in the NT; Outside of what love can birth through the fruit of the Spirit, there is no other law to follow.
6. The law of Spirit of life is what rules the Christian today.
7. We are delivered from the law, its blessing and curses. We are translated to God's kingdom, the blessing of which is with the Father, Eph 1:3

^OK. My question are answered

*sits backs and watches thread roll*

Thank you Ayokun, I get it.

Speaking of preachers/Teachers, recently I came across the teachings of Dr D M Lloyd-Jones, a preacher, and R B Thieme, a teacher. And they both inspire me in that direction U speak of.

Thieme teaches the need for regular confesion of sin and asking for in filling of the Spirit, to restore fellowship with the Holy Ghost, before any spiritual exercise.

Lloyd-Jones exalts the grace of God and his listeners just fall in love with Jesus. Bot preachers are late.

Do we still have Pastors like that? Ayoku, who are your teachers? I don't believe House on the Rock teaches anything close to what U speak?