₦airaland Forum

manmustwac:
The day u say one good thing about spurs i go convert to islam

No be truth she talk? 3 penalties in a single match? Twente fans should send threatning mssgs to that official.

mukina2:
. . . .arsenal financial reviews lesson 101 with Krofessor Duduspace

I dey try emulate Le Prof now,  but  e no easy to wear tie when Arsenal dey play. If we no win anything this year, Arsene go comot shirt for touchline. 

yousouph:
Epistle after espistle. Are we reading reading Financial Times on Arsenal thread?

If finances are not important, why is UEFA introducing financial rules? 
It is all well and easy to bury one's head in the sand until the club does a portsmouth and then start pointing the finger of blame. Why not manage things better so it never gets to that?

I get your point though, maybe Debo and I need a different thread to debate these things, but then money is the root of all evils or so they say.

debosky:
^^
Arsene was talking about how many people he had made careers for and how he would produce a list for the press in future - is that the question he was asked? How on earth is that anything to do with Arsenal FC? That was egotistical boasting. . . Fergie who has more coaches in the EPL as his ex players and ex utd youngsters sprinkled all over the divisions doesn't talk about it like Wenger does.

You have not indicated the context in which that statement came, and that is typical Myles Palmer behaviour and that was not the only statement but the one you chose to pick, Arsene talks about it because the press always bring it up. Nobody brings it up with Fergie.

debosky:
Again this goes down to what Wenger's current priorities are - is it to be seen as the greatest developer of youngsters for Arsenal (and others) or to win trophies for Arsenal? Don't go reeling out comments like we 'want to win' but look at actions. It seems the former is of greater concern to him.

Arsene and the board could not be any clearer than they are about where their priorities lie. Club's long term stability first and trophies later is a good enough summary. Every statement from top to bottom of the club's hierarchy echoes the same thing but some people aint listening and think they can do it better but where are their antecedents?

debosky:
Liverpool make £20m per year off their deal, ditto Utd while we make £5.5m. so the difference is roughly £15m. That cannot account for the huge difference in revenues. Utd makes over £70m+ a year without stadium naming deals, so the £30m+ difference is not just about stadium naming or shirt sales.

about 33m, out of which you already explained by yourself where at the least 15m of that goes. And if I'm not mistaken, Manure makes more than Liverpool from their naming rights and also have Manure TV. Manure also goes on pre-season overseas trips which we don't and they do sell more shirts particularly in the far east which seems to be the new frontier. But despite all that, the fact remains that they are in debt and don't announce the results we do despite making more money (and pls don't go into the source of the Glazer LBO debate) every club ultimately lives by decisions made at the board level, because at the end of the day, they are the ones who bear the risk.

debosky:
Looking at Utd's sponsor list and their calibre, it is obvious that winning trophies has made them a far better prospect for the biggest brands who pay the biggest fees for sponsorship compared to Arsenal. This comes right back to my assertion that strengthening playing staff leading to trophies will produce a financial payback with longer term implications.

I have never argued this point, winning makes you more attractive and gets you more money that is true, but if the earnings from winning does not balance with or surpass the cost of winning then that is a pyrrhic victory and why Portsmouth is now in the championship, Manure and liverpool in heavy debts and Abramovic having to write off over 500m of debt (which is actually more than the cost of our stadium for which we are still indebted if you haven't noticed). Please demand for trophies and better performance from the whole club establishment, it is a right as a fan but at the same time, be realistic in your expectations.

debosky:
Barca has no naming deals yet is making close to £100m - as you've said, we sell more jerseys than them so there is clearly a big gap we are missing. Besides, if we are third, we can be first and should seek to move forward.

True, what we argue about is how to move forward, I am willing to trust in the board and manager who got us here against all the odds and made us better than to trust in some people who just pull figures out of the air and point at people who win trophies but their bottomlines don't add up. The only fair comparison to make in comparing Arsenal to any other club is Manure and Chelsea as they all operate under the PL environment and it is very obvious both clubs are reining in their spending (if you haven't noticed.)
Barca and RM negotiate their own TV deals and don't share from a pot, their media partner Mediapro is now having financial difficulties and the other La Liga clubs are agitating for a common pot like the PL.

debosky:
@ Dudu

Firstly I am not inclined to continue writing lengthy epistles. . . .I think they are clogging up the thread and are generally uninteresting to the bulk of the gooner community. I shall try to cut down drastically, though I fear the urge to counter some of your posts will result in a few departures from this policy.

Fair enough, don't intend to either.  

debosky:
Going back to my original post on the financial analysis. I haven't denied the good work that the board has done and the sound financial health of the club. That is a moot point as far as Arsenal FC is concerned. . . .while not to be taken for granted, it is hardly a new insight into our affairs. The key is to find out where our gaps are and how to improve on them. Anything else is simply navel gazing and patting yourself on the back. That doesn't produce progress and often leads to stagnation. Arsene's obscene chest beating about how great he is during the previous week ended with an appalling defeat on Saturday and that proves the point - take your eye off the ball and you quickly lose focus.

Those are the kind of statements I find Myles Palmerish, Arsene has no need to thump his chest, his work speaks for itself and is appreciated by those who employed him and some who sift out the media's gibberish. He was responding to a direct statement about the emergence of Jack Wilshere and what the club's policy is with bringing players through.

debosky:
In summary, there are big gaps in the club's commercial operations - stadium naming and shirt sponsorship cannot be responsible for an £80m gap with Bayern, we've just been too conservative and 'English' in that respect and need to improve. Most importantly for me, is that the necessary strengthening of the playing staff gets the focus it deserves, providing the commercial operations with a saleable product. [b]I doubt we're selling many shirts with Almunia and Fabianski on the backs ;[/b]D

There is always room for improvement, but you also need not to forget the principles that brought you where you are. Naming rights and shirt sponsorship can definitely be responsible for the 80m shortfall considering that Liverpool and Tottenham make about 20-15m  more than we do on shirt sponsorship per year. Bayern make most of that money off Allianz arena hence why they make more than RM and Manure who don't have a stadium naming partner. We got 100m upfront for the emirates naming rights which has gone a long way to pay off most of our debts (na yam to pay off over half of about 470m loan + interest off in 4 years?) and we're stuck with them till 2017 when the deal can be renegotiated.

That article clearly pointed out that we are 3rd overall in shirt sales only after Manure and RM, despite Almunia and Fabianski, we even sell more shirts than Barcelona.

So we are off to the castle of Count Didier Drogbula on sunday and we expect to face his minions of which worthy of mention is John Terry "The Terrible" and Florent "The Mauler" Malouda. Halloween is just round the corner, we are not afraid.  

This Chicharito boy is Manure's new Solksjaer, we have to make sure he doesn't get as many trophies as Ole Gunnar did. You know good signings immediately you see them, Bebe however is another matter entirely, don't think he is of the required level. This Chicharito boy has spirit, belief and ability.

Great, that will only come after the DKometer which measures the tendency to continually repeat half truths that have already been debunked many times over is patented. 

@Debo

Very informative article actually and nice breakdown, its your summary of it that is badly skewed. Actually more detailed than the one I directed you to which tries to make it more simple (he is cited as a source by the other author) to be honest apart from the dig at Arsene about the GKs at the end which I must admit is not totally untrue, and some assumptions about spending that he didn't quite back up enough IMO, the article lays out the data and facts very well and he actually did give an immense amount of credit to Arsene, I could summarise a whole page of quotes from the guy that would make it look like he worships Arsene if you dare me to. 

debosky:
I am not looking for another praise singer - you and Wenger himself do enough of that. What is required is an analysis of the requirements to move us to the NEXT LEVEL. You are content to stay where we are, hoping others will regress and allow us in. . . .I am not interested in that.

I also don't fancy unreleting criticism that glosses over the facts and can only concoct fantasies to confirm an opinion that has no basis in fact. If you read those reports with an unbiased mind you will see sound business logic in the board's spending.

debosky:
That statement is factually correct - there is no NEED to keep 90m as cash in the bank. . .it is a CHOICE. There is NO EVIDENCE showing we MUST hold all that profit else we won't be able to meet operational expenses.

Surely you can't be writing this, is it you or the author of that article who writes the checks? who pays the interest on the loans? who pays wages? get realistic man, that is a whole lot of assumption in there. The board would not arbitrarily decide on reserves to keep and that is not even likely a management decision at CEO level but a board level decision. Do you see Arsene's signature on those financial results?

debosky:
Not much content in there - he simply says 'we're in fine shape' - no insights into the complexities of the business at all, and little or no discussion of the property side of the business.

Is we're in fine shape the only thing he said? even if it is, doesn't this other article agree we are in fine shape? or what does this snipper from the article mean?
[Quote]
To place this into context, only five Premier League clubs (including Arsenal) were profitable last year. In the traditional Big Four, only Manchester United also reported a profit, but this was much lower at £22 million and would have been a large loss without the £80 million they made by selling Cristiano Ronaldo to Real Madrid.[/quote]Does that in any way suggest we are in bad shape? 

debosky:
No analysis of where we differ with other clubs, no analysis of where the improvements can come from, no analysis to shed light on whether the board's frugality is necessary at the level being pursued or whether there is room to spend/improve revenues. Of what value is that? Another 'feel good' blog with no original thought.

did you read this?
[Quote]
Where the cash will be used and must be used is to remedy an obvious shortfall in the Arsenal business model. Our commercial revenue is severely lagging behind that of our EPL peers and also our European counterparts. The reason for this is simple. We needed money to get the Emirates stadium project off the ground and Emirates provided a £100 million deal but it was front loaded and as we are in the second half of the 15 year deal, the income from it is now declining year by year so it is almost negligible.

Similarly our shirt deal with Nike was struck from a poor bargaining position and renewed based on a clause in the original deal so whilst better than the Emirates deal it is not as good as that of say Liverpool or Man Utd. These deals had to be done and we will simply have to deal with them until 2004 and 2017 respectively.[/quote]And why should anyone be analysing whether the frugality of the board is warranted as you so simply put it or rather why someone who has no understanding of how cash flows in the company be standing in such a position as to say all the cash reserves should be made available to buy players just because he wants to boast that his club is also spending money.

[Quote]
The board claims 'full stadiums' but we see the empty seats emerging - fans renting out season tickets and the like because they can't afford it. Don't deceive yourself that attendance numbers are not under threat. . . .with the highest ticket prices in Europe, we need to keep fans happy or they'll vote with their feet.[/quote]True, every company hides and colours the facts but one thing is certain for all to see, some club's debts are growing, ours is reducing, they've not done anything of note but we've built a new stadium and an academy that stands us in good stead, what more evidence do you need that we are progressing? 
I agree that we need to return to winning ways to keep fans and supporters happy but the doomsday scenario being portrayed is exaggerated when the turnover and profits don't support those scenarios. These people should be more bothered about Manure going into administration than mass exodus at the emirates. I can understand their always shouting it from the rooftops, that is what they want to happen, what I find unfortunate is some so called arsenal fans and blogs supporting them and inciting others to do so.

[Quote]
Again, instead of jumping to 'defend' the club - read a bit more in detail. . . the premier customers paying the highest proportion of the revenue can easily move on if we are not providing them with what they are looking for.[/quote]True enough, but where are they going to? Chelsea can't fill Stamford bridge at just a capacity of 45m (after 6 years of winning everything apart from the UCL) and Manure had to come out to say they couldn't sell all their season tickets (possibly due to the problem with the Glazers), Arsenal is still smiling to the bank and has a long season ticket waiting list, we must be doing something right.
Why exactly do you see Chelsea reining in their spending? maybe an acknowledgement that their system doesn't work perhaps?

[Quote]
We are vulnerable to fans being disillusioned. . . .and the easiest way to do that is to think we're all silly and refuse to strengthen the obvious flaws.[/quote]Very true, but do you really think the board isn't aware of this? is it in their long or short term interests to have disillusioned fans? hard times require hard decisions, the singular fact that we didn't sell Cesc for 35m when we gladly gave Henry away for 18m convinces me things are improving. We will get there and I do think we are closer than most people think. Keep the faith Bruv.

[Quote]
Again, you're not looking at the FULL picture - the larger (but not only) reason for Barca and Real spending more than we can is due to their vastly superior non-TV commercial earnings.
Arsenal earns 44m, while Barca and Real earn 96m and 119m respectively. . . .even Bayern makes 120m+ from commercial deals and that is the clearest distinction between the clubs.[/quote]A great reason for that is the naming and Kit deals, we negotiated those deals from position of weakness when we needed money for the stadium, don't have the details now but Tottenham makes about 3 times what we get from shirt naming deals and our Kit deal with Nike was also front loaded (I explained this to DK a while ago), its not something that can be immediately addressed because we are tied into those contracts till 2014 and 2017 respectively, when those deals are negotiated we'll see a massive jump in earnings, our case will certainly be helped at that time with some silverware in the kitty.

Never ever forget that these clubs you mention have been big and have had big stadiums and massive success for ages even in some instances enjoyed government support in the past, Arsenal only entered the league of superclubs with the advent of Arsene, his initial trophy laden years and the stadium. At the time Arsene came to Arsenal, Liverpool could be said to be a bigger club than Arsenal and our direct rivals were Tottenham but where are those clubs now compared to us? We'll get to the levels of RM and Barca soon I believe all in due season.

debosky:
In essence, we have to improve our commercial revenues in the long term, while in the short term we can afford to spend more than we are currently doing WITHOUT endangering our financial stability.

The key is for Arsene to use his fantastic ability to identify value in the transfer market to plug one or two obvious gaps in the team. This may cost more than the typical 2-5m bargain basement player, but if they are quality, they will produce for 4-5 years at the least and will prove to be better value in the long run.

And this is the summary of all the info in that article? I'm gobsmacked, no credit at all or consideration pertaining to the tight ship we ran to get into such a good position in the first instance? it is only about how much we have available for transfers?

I question the veracity of statements like "However, that still leaves £90 million of available cash in the pot." when the writer also says this "though the club is keen to emphasise the seasonal nature of cash flows, i.e. money taken from season ticket renewals will be used to pay operational expenses over the next few months. Furthermore, the club has to hold £38 million as reserves (£31 million as security for the bonds and £7 million for Queensland Road property "

He has just chucked the club's stand on the need for those reserves out of the window and made up his own conclusion, Debo read between the lines.

I'd also like you to chew on this particular statement which I found interestin:

[Quote]"Let’s be very clear about this: even without any player sales, football would still be profitable – but only just at £7 million."[/quote]If as the club says, the football is ring fenced from other activities and all the profit we made from football is only just 7m why exactly should anyone expect expensive signings? if we add to that the money we made from player sales which is about 38m that practically gives Arsene 45m to spend (on the assumption that all the money made is spent and none kept for the rainy day) we already know we've gotten Squillaci, Chamakh, Koscielny from that amount and all the youth players we've signed also (and don't ask me why we need to buy those youth players when yu and I know it is the sale of such young players who have appreciated in value that brought about that profit in the first instance). And this poster has already said that we can't expect to always make such profits on player trading each year (e.g we are not likely to make any such profit anytime soon except maybe we sell Cesc and thereby setting the team's progression back again).
Not to talk too much, all this people can come and tell us how Arsene should spend money but I'm sure they would never have had the foresight to get us to this position, that is the difference between us and Liverpool for example.

I suggest you take a look at this, I think its a fairer assesment,

http://blog.emiratesstadium.info/archives/8072

I give this bloke credit for giving a lot of information but his conclusions are very dodgy, he has not put the board's position on spending into consideration at all. Only good thing is he confirms what I've been saying all along that compared to other clubs we are in a very good position but then he still doesn't give any credit, all he is interested in is what he wishes to be available for transfers.

debosky:
Failure to do so may lead to fan disillusionment, thereby affecting our gate takings.

Affect gate takings with season ticket waiting list over 38,000, even after 6 seasons without trophies? latest rumors are that the board is already considering how to expand the stadium to about 80,000 capacity to cater for that waiting list. If we have between 38,000 and 40,000 seasons ticket waiting list despite the media and the D&G brigade's phantom doomsday scenario for us, imagine what will happen when we do start winning? The board and Arsene have done a damned good job, even if yu're frustrated at not winning trophies give them credit for the sound footing they've put the club abeg.

To be honest, even I can't understand how we do it, Chelsea despite all their trophies can't fill Stamford bridge and Manure despite their performances can't sell all their season tickets while Arsenal has a 30,000+ waiting list.

One other thing I could pick from that write up is the reason why Barca and Real can spend so much and dominate La Liga, they make up to 50m per annum from TV earnings alone than Arsenal does, it is irresponsible spending for a club like Barca to still have to go and get loans to pay their staff. It is amazing the financial irresponsibility you can get away with as long as you win trophies until it all bottoms out. That is why UEFA had to step in with those rules, the direction football was heading was a dark one indeed, Liverpool is only the first of manyl.

I dislike Fergie but yu've got to respect his will to win.

But this is crazy, when did Nigeria become a terrorist state where children are no longer safe?  when I was young, we were always warned about Gbomogbomos lurking around but they were always lonesome lowlife types looking to make quick money ritually but you never heard of a whole bus of children being attacked and 15 children taken captive. Are people no longer humane in this country of ours? When did things get this bad in Nigeria? o ga o.

maedan:
Anyway, I will twist that ancient saying to my own words and say, "I hope our enemies stick around the thread long enough so they can be here when we celebrate our next victory. . .
"

Hmmm I hope and pray all of us are still here when next that happens, the way liverpool is going, the next trophy they are likely to celebrate is the League 2 championship. That one is also silverware abi?

Was DK banned? o ga o, why yu self dey post offtopic.

I came to the conclusion that the pundits are mostly failed Managers who can only run their mouths off on TV a while ago, How can anyone worth his salt not know that Chamakh scored 5 goals in the UCL last season, made the french league first 11 and claim he is unproven? 

Chamakh has been an impressive buy, makes one wonder if 6m was the difference between silverware and going empty handed last season, I just love everything that guy does on the pitch and his knack of scoring important goals is often a difference in getting a result, most people would only consider his goals for Bordeaux but I wonder how many penalties he got for them on the evidence of the number he's got for us so far (about 3 or 4 if I'm not mistaken) no matter what other failings Arsene has, he knows his players. Squillaci and Koscielny have been inspired buys too. Squillaci just oozes composure and confidence at the back, I think he is even better than Vermaelen as a defender.

Today, Jack's role was more like Cesc's typical role (good idea with Prince Nas rested and Capt. Fantastic unavailable) with Song taking over Diaby's role and Denilson taking Song's usual role, seemed to work fine with Denilson not getting caught too far up the pitch, seems he is the one with the least powerful engine of all our MF players, his recovery speed is too slow to stop counters unlike all the others who seem to have a decent combination of pace and power. Only that Diaby is often tactically inept. No matter where you play Wilshere, he just seems to shine there, I remember him playing wide and making Salgado look like a mug in an emirates cup match some seasons back.

Didn't watch the first half so not sure if we played our 2 holding players pattern today, in the 2nd half with a man's advantage, we reverted back to last season's formation with only 1 player holding.

Arsene is on the warpath o, benches Clichy for a barely fit Gibbs? Le Prof don vex o.

debosky:
If I want to be cynical, the board is content to pay off the debts quickly (within the next 2 years if profits continue rolling in) and after this the owner will be able to buy the club debt free. At that point, given the lack of debt, they will get an excellent value for their shares and walk away from the club, leaving maybe Gazidis to serve the new owner with other board members dancing into the sunset with their riches.

To some, that's why they aren't going to push for essential signings like a GK, that's why they won't challenge AW's actions like David Dein could and  continue to give him an unprecedented amount of control virtually unheard of at almost any club - because he pays the debts off and keeps the club semi-competitive and attractive to a potential buyer.

I know this is the view people like Myles Palmer and the Le-Grove guys peddle but if you examine it closely it falls flat on its face.

1. No one told Dein to sell out without the others knowing (classical back stabbing if you ask me and the board responded in a way they were entitled to chucked him out when his coup failed)

2. The other board members could have sold out at that time too as the share prices were high and still remains so

3. The power broker board members don't see eye to eye apart from the Fiszman/Kroenke/Board axis where the power seems concentrated at present. (Lady Nina and Usmanov remain in the wilderness while the new fanshare and small independent holders make up the others)

4. The board won't challenge Arsene because yes, he does a good job for their investment and that is not a bad thing afterall they are his employers. If I were in their shoes and I dare say if you were, you would do exactly the same thing (it is the same thing the Glazers are doing only that they were winning trophies while bleeding the club dry) I still believe in the board's principle, if you put in money into something then you expect to get some profit back, as long as it is done sustainably I don't see a problem with it.

5. I like the way the board is set up because I believe absolute power corrupts absolutely, as things are now no one can breach the 50% threshold to take ownership of the club (except both Lady Nina and Fiszman decide to sell to anyone of Usmanov or Kroenke so its a deadlock) so it is more of the same until something seismic happens.

6. The board won't question Arsene because they share the same priorities, long term stability first and then trophies second. When Kroenke was coming on board, the same Myles Palmer was shouting that he would put pressure on Arsene because he knows how to win (as if Kroenke became a billionaire by throwing away money) but have you heard any complaints from Kroenke since?

7. Only a silly man would discard a manager who makes money for him, The Glazers don't care, they are there to make money first but they are doing it in a wrong way despite winning trophies, Fergie doesn't mind, he can always check out when it starts going down hill with his reputation as a winner intact. It will bottom out one day as we are seeing Liverpool are bottoming out now. If something is unsustainable it always breaks in the end no matter how long it goes on for. Remember Nospetco?

Infact anyone buying Arsenal is actually buying a gold mine, for a company to pay over 130m debt off in a year is no mean feat how much more a football club? but I wake up everyday praying we don't fall victim to an LBO like Manure because all of the board and manager's travails would have been in vain.

No probs Debo, you know I'll always have good words to say about Arsene and  the board. 

On another note, what is it with football and investment nowadays? Liverfluke are still wandering in the wilderness looking for an investor, Mike Ashley has given up trying to sell Newcastle and even the Newcastle ultras don coolee with their lalakokofefe, while Bill Kenwright of Everton is also looking for the "right" investor and hasn't found one. Is it that free money is no longer floating around because people now know with Abramovic's experience that it is not all rosy? 

Apart from City (which is virtually owned by a government body) no one seems interested in buying a club these days, those Manure fans making noise about Red, white and black knights should be very worried. As long as it is making money for the Glazers, they'll continue to paper over the cracks (but I still think there was something fishy about letting Adem Ljajic go and then buying Bebe who is 2 years older and doesn't have a good pedigree), my accountant friend still feels there was some money laundering going on with that transfer (na rumor o, so don't quote me) 

But everyone should be very worried about City, the money backing those guys is just too much and this people don't seem interested in balancing any account at all. I pray that new UEFA financial prudence law kicks in pretty soon.

http://soccernet.espn.go.com/news/story?id=827794&sec=europe&cc=5739

I told Sauron Manure would regret not signing this Ljajic boy back then. He is 2 years younger than Bebe but I'm sure he is already much better. I think Manure might just have let the next CR9 slipped through their fingers. You know an exceptional player when you see one.

tkb417:
My defination of a true fan is someone who says it as it is and not someone who is deluded, believes whatever the coach/player does would always be right .   .   .    .    .

I concur with this definition, and actually live by it. I held my hand up here to say Silvestre was a wrong signing. But I also know when the club I support has a manager who is doing very well and will give him the backing he needs. And not wait to make a mockery of him everytime he loses. You've got to have pride in the club you support not only when they win but also when they lose. By all means, vent your spleen when they lose but show some pride in your club and manager, others have it much worse.

debosky:
Ask AW for a bed in the Colney injury centre. . . .I read Gazidis is expanding it rapidly to cope with the ever increasing injury list.

Now I know how much yu hate me?  but hey I'll gladly break a leg to go get autographs

debosky:
We aren't taking anything for granted - the fact is that the anger you see here is precisely because of all the other good things we have being ruined by stubborn, pig-headed and sometimes imbecilic rigidity.

Liken it to spending £1000 to cook a gourmet meal for guests, but refusing to buy Fairy washing up liquid for £3 to clean the cutlery. . . .that piece of foolishness ends up poisoning your guests and rendering your expensive feast a disaster. Why on earth would any reasonable person be content with that?

You know Almunia isn't good enough, I know it, the whole world knows it. . . . yet we STILL haven't done anything about it?

If that isn't gross negligence bordering on intentional sabotage, I don't know what is.

What you take as folly Debosky, I take as pragmatism. Truth be told, the presence or absence of Schwarzer is not the singular factor that will determine if Arsenal wins a trophy this season or not. Maybe if we had Cech, I might be tempted to agree with you  but if we refused to pay 4m for Schwarzer I don't think we have the money to either buy or pay the wages of a Cech class goalkeeper no matter what profits we make.

I'll go back in history and I recall a certain Eamon Dunphy (those who live in Ireland will know him on RTE) berating Arsene for playing Ade while Rafa bought Torres, he made an analogy about Toxedos and said if Arsene wanted to go to Dinner, he needed to buy a proper Tuxedo.
Hindsight tells me Liverpool bought Torres, never won anything and are in lamentation today, while we sold Ade on for 25m and are still contenders on all front, but will Eamon Dunphy come out today to accept he was wrong? No, I expect he's moved on to the next media buzz word, Arsene needs to buy a proper Goalkeeper as if a GK good enough to come within 4 points of winning the title and touted to become England number one despite being a foreigner is totally clueless.

I don't know if yu're a management type person, but hard choices have to be made and I'm glad we have a manager smart enough to make those decisions before they become critical problems that everyone else can see and the bottle to stand by those decisions and not run away like Martin O'Neill.

slimshay:
wilshere's defensive game is being developed, that's why he gets the primary dm role and song is allowed further up the pitch.

Arsene developing his all round game as usual, Jack is going to end up in a more advanced position for sure but its good to have someone with such playmaking abilities so deep, a tactical genius friend of mine is convinced it will help us in Europe.

Trying not to blow my trumpet too much but I just saw a statement I wrote about Jack Wilshere at the Arsenal Mania website on 23rd April 2008 after his 2nd reserve appearance against West Ham.

[Quote]
duduspace wrote:
I watched the highlights of the reserve game against West Ham and had no choice than to comment on this boy. Mark my words, this boy will be playing some part in the first team in two years time (the fact that he is English is also a big bonus) but this guy sure enjoys his game and he wouldn't just be filling any quota.

The fact that he was willing to grab the game by the scruff of the neck is also a good attribute, he looks to me like a faster version of Fabregas and his pass for Rui Fonte's goal was a typical Hleb pass.

We might start to see some appearances by this guy from next season's CC team.

This boy might be the next outstanding precocious talent after Fabregas.[/quote]I must say that I was right on every prediction.

@Pappilo (Pls could you send that messg on mssgr again, sorry I stupidly deleted it cos the name wasn't familiar)

To be honest a lot of them are true fans, they are only just disillusioned with the way things are, I know for a fact Debosky is a fan, you don't spend time supporting a club this long without being a true fan, it is alway difficult to go from outstanding success in a level field to fighting against all the massive odds stacked against you, any wonder why people commit suicide when they lose their wealth? it is all the more frustrating when yu're still somehow able to get so close and fall at the last hurdle as we seem to do and I can understand that.

Even Myles Palmer is a fan, only thing is that he allows his personal dislike of Arsene and his BNP views to influence everything he writes. I have a friend like Debo who calls me to shout in my ears after every match, even my younger brother was like that last season until he took some distance from it all and came to the same conclusion I came to about 2 years back, all I demand from this team is improvement year on year to bridge the gulf in class between us and those who have spent money to get there.

Now all I've said doesn't excuse performances like Saturdays, it is something that should not have happened and the boys and Arsene should rightly be ashamed of it, but it would be unfair to judge them on that singular performance alone.

@A-40

Everything in life is relative, the fact that we now take some things for granted does not mean they are less important and shouldn't be appreciated. What we take for granted at Arsenal is what the Sheikhs at City are spending over 300m to get and are still spending.

[quote author=kay_pumpin link=topic=510371.msg6833182#msg6833182 date=1285625538]If Citeh can get their acts together,this may just be their year.None of the son called Big 4 has impressed really.

And Flappy against Chelsea?    [/quote]I'm starting to fear too that squad is strong and we might have just seen a shift in power with that result on Saturday. We never competed with big signings anyway but our boys have gotta grow up fast men before city get their acts together.

@Debosky
I spent a lot of time today in the office replying to you, pls start preparing an air mattress in your pad incase I get sacked soon for violating official internet policy. I know yu won't turn away a fellow gooner despite our disagreements. Sebi na Birmingham you dey?

debosky:
Rubbish - when did I condemn the team? The individuals have been singled out in my posts - again start READING my posts not some imaginary script in your head.

No you don't need to, but when a team has a run of only a loss in 8 games across all competitions and all you can point out is that in the games they won they played against 10 men clearly overlooking the fact that they got a draw while one man down themselves in another of those games, it convinces me you only see the negatives in the team and that to me is condemnation. No football team wins everytime, that is a fact of life.

debosky:
Why stop at Liverpool? You might as well ask me why Stoke and Blackburn play rugby football.  
Your standards are hopelessly low that you will seek out the lowest common denominator to justify mediocrity instead of looking at the abysmal nature of our performances.

Very easy to bandy words like mediocrity around, pray could you state the criteria for determining mediocrity, I find it hard to reconcile 3rd position in a class of 20 as being mediocre, sorry I can understand DK stating such things to make Arsenal fans feel bad but I can't understand an Arsenal fan claiming Arsenal is mediocre even the English media dare not say it. Reminds me of a guy who called in to one of these phone in programs and said Arsene had to go, he was asked by the guest player they had on who he felt could replace Arsene and he says Martin O'Neill, I was like WTF

debosky:
Which improvement? In making the same mistakes year in year out? Wow - losing to West Brom is now improvement. Congrats! Drawing in the 95th minute to Sunderland is an improvement, so is relying on Reina to score against 10 man Liverpool. This is the greatest improvement ever.
Stick to that line then, not making silly and disingenuous comments like this is the 'first slip up' - stick to consoling yourself.

Yeah, I'm consoling myself, its my way of coping with the ups and downs of the club I support, at least I'm not lashing out at everything around me in annoyance for some assumed right that the club I support must win at all cost, I've seen liverpool fans saying they would gladly exchange the European cup they won for the stability Arsenal enjoys. Maybe yu're taking too many things for granted.

debosky:
Claiming we are still doing good is like a man living in a house with no roof - he rejoices he built a foundation 3 years ago, only to see the rain destroy his furniture for another year and need replacement. Such thinking is the signpost of retardation.

Okay, we are doin very bad, infact we are worse than Everton, Liverpool, Tottenham, infact we are the worst club in the history of soccer, I've never seen a worse club and manager and we deserve to be in Blue Square premiership. Happy now?  

debosky:
You're a joker - you said I was referring to 5 years without trophies. I WAS NOT - I was referring to keeping IDIOTS like Fabianski and Almunia as our only goalies - that has gone on for three years hasn't it? Have they left? Aren't they still CURRENT keepers? Is Clichy not making the errors NOW?  

Do you see any mention of Almunia or Fabianski in that post you made? I made a direct reference to Hercules v Barca, yu started talking of what both clubs have done in 3 years, now its Almunia and Fabianski you were referring to but I see no mention of them in that particular post, now yu're sounding totally confused.
Even I have taken my pound of flesh off Almunia so I can't be accused of "protecting" Almunia but I do understand why we're stuck with him.

debosky:
Honestly you've lost all perspective and I am highly disappointed.

You should be, in yourself. yu're not keeping any perspective at all.

debosky:
We've had some good performances, but the 'best' have been against two sides playing with ten men at the Emirates. . . .that is not a reflection of reality.

Now these are the kinds of statement I would expect from a none Arsenal supporter, and the kinds of statements I question, pray did those teams take to the pitch with 10 men?

debosky:
I said the Tottenham performance was good because it was - in the same vein I have every right to condemn the unbelievable shambles we saw on Saturday, especially when we've been seeing bits and pieces of it all season :

By all means condemn performances, what I question is your condemnation of the team. Condeming performances is all fine and dandy but to condemn the team on one loss isn't right. You can even chose to condemn some players as being never able to make it as long as yu're prepared to eat your words when they do.

debosky:
- Koscielny howler collection (numerous examples)
- Almunia beaten weakly at his near post (against Liverpool)
- complacency outside the box (against Liverpool)

When persistent errors now come together to show themselves in one game, only a blind man will think they are the first slip ups. . . .the indicators have been screaming that this was going to happen.

And are you telling me Liverpool didn't have their howlers? where is liverpool today? Manure and Chelsea haven't had their own individual player errors? this is nitpicking and if you refect on it or maybe when you calm down yu'll see that. Question performances fine, but don't go overboard when things don't go well, its like a baby throwing its playthings out of its pram because the mother didn't give him one he had his heart set upon.

Now yu've listed Koscielny up there but are you not one of those raving about him just recently? even Myles Palmer had some good words for him recently.

debosky:
Read the post - it wasn't Myles Palmer that said it - the person Myles P quoted saw exactly what I saw over the weekend and the results have confirmed it. But then again, you are still wearing your blind man goggles so I don't expect you to see wood for trees.

Is it not from Myles Palmer's site? even if Myles Palmer didn't write it, from the article he supported every word of it.

debosky:
While you are feeding on propaganda, people are giving concise analysis of ACTIONS taken by Wenger and the board and the results are backing them up - sadly so. There is no fan out there happy for the club to do badly, what they HATE is to be right and see the same idiotic, correctable errors repeating themselves.  

what sort of useless analysis is that? that will not give the team credit for their achievements but always have a snide remark even when the team wins? like the one you put up there about playing with 10 men, and then make every loss look like the heavens are about to fall? come on, spare me the sarcasm.

debosky:
When Rose scored the goal of his life against us (Albeit partly an Almunia mistake) we respected the goal. . . which one of the rubbish goals we've conceded have been awesome?  

What we usually say is that is a Godawful goal to concede!! For you to be spouting nonsense that we haven't slipped up when the errors are MOUNTING daily is unbelievable. If you won't say the truth, I will.

While you might put on blinkers and keep thinking about an imaginary future that will NEVER come to pass with the current attitude of Wenger and the board, the rest of us will not be deluded.
[Quote]
If you are satisfied with this nonsense, I AM NOT. [/quote]Satisfaction and understanding that you have to crawl before you fly are two different things. I'm amazed you can't see the distinction.

debosky:
Stop nonsense comparisons like Barca vs Hercules. . . . they didn't sell off their entire squad and start from scratch, so we MUST look at their performance in context of the last couple of years. If you claim the squad has 'improved', wasn't that comparing it to the previous season?  

Now yu're actually giving the team excuses, I didn't know you now acknowledge that we started from scratch and there was a project youth which you were denying last season. There is hope for you yet.
If we also started from scratch, don't you expect to see improvement year on year?

debosky:
Every season is NOT a new one - not when you keep making THE SAME mistakes as you've been making for three years. If you can't comprehend this then there is little hope for you.  

Well maybe we keep on making the same mistakes, but we also keep on doing a lot of right things well, hence why we always go to europe, its not all D&G from where I stand.

debosky:
Besides, I didn't talk about the last 5 years in my post, showing you are just recycling your inane arguments without reading. I mentioned specific time periods with the shambles we call GKs and a coach persistently refusing to improve things when needed.

[Quote]Comparing the nonsense we did yesterday to Messi vs Hercules must be the most disingenuous comparison ever - are Barca coming off 3 years of REPEATEDLY making the same mistakes? Have they had a useless No 1 and 2 keeper like us for 3 years and counting?  Have they had mofos like Clichy going backwards for 2 seasons on the trot yet retaining his place?[/quote]Don't know about you but this looked like a reference to the past to me or is it a reference to the future?  

biolabee:
and since we are all the rest are plastic fans and u the only METALLIC fans , no vex

If you make yourself a plastic fan even before I make you one, what exactly am I supposed to ?

[quote author=A-40 link=topic=510371.msg6831860#msg6831860 date=1285611329]I don't know why Duduspace keeps thinking he is the only legit Gunner on this forum? Is Arsenal's performance over the last 5 seasons not worth getting frustrated over[/quote]I have never said I'm the only legit Gooner, that is a false accusation A-40, If you look at my post I just pointed out Debo is a gooner through and through, he's even been here long before I came to the forum and I really respect that, my statement about Dr. Kit and Debo getting tired was tongue in cheek I am an eternal optimist and they are pessimists that is all.

As to Arsenal's performance in the past 5 years, what can I say? not the best of times I must say but I still don't believe we need to hang it as an anchor round our necks though and let it affect our perception of the good things happening in the club, it will only drag us down but at the end of the day, water finds its level and I don't believe we will stay always on the brink of achievement, we will either make it some day or fall soon. I don't see us falling and I'm willing to wait till we make it so I personally thumb my nose at the media everytime they bring it up but fair game to them, they've got to say something haven't they?