₦airaland Forum

LaClicKLaBenDin:
Lol... I can't see any connection between the elders and intercession..please point it out maybe my brain is too small to connect the dots.

Just do this simple thing and I will give you your peace.

in case you didn't see my earlier response... here it is
The 24 elders are definitely not angels, nor are they Jesus or the Holy Spirit..So what could they be?the word elder comes from the Greek word " presbyteroi".. this word is used about 67 times in the new testament and in every case, representing a"HUMAN MAN" Just do a word search on your Bible or internet, I don't have the patience to go through all of them with you...Some apostles like Peter and John called themselves elders see 1 Peter 5:1,2 john 1:1, 3 john 1:1,Elders were part of the early church see acts 11:30, 14:23, 15:2, 15:4, 15:6, 15:22-23, 16:4, 20:17, 21:18,PAUL said that the Elders laying hands on people could pass power to them.. see 1 Tim 4:14..Paul also says that double honor shouldbe given to the elders who rule 1 Tim 5:17..Paul tells Timothy and Titus to appoint elders see Titus 1:5, 2 Tim 2:2,THE POINT IS, IN ALL THESE INSTANCES ELDERS ARE HUMAN BEINGS, BY DEDUCTION, ELDERS IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION SHOULD REPRESENT HUMANS NO MATTER THE LITERARY GENRE REVELATION WAS WRITTEN IN, IT HAS TO BE CONSISTENT WITH THE REST OF THE BIBLE USAGE OF THE WORD

LaClicKLaBenDin:
Brother, I tire for your matter o... seriously! What's all that you put up there? Simple, tell me who those elders are, and you're writing history.

Your problem is; you read the Bible and then give your own meaning to the things you read, meaning that will aid your erroneous beliefs.

Revelation 5:8 And when he had taken the book, the four beasts and four and twenty elders fell down before the Lamb, having every one of them harps, and golden vials full of odours, which are the prayers of saints.

Please highlight any part of the above scripture that even in the smallest of way, suggests or insinuates that these said elders interceded for the saints.

Please make it simple, no long talks.

I have already answered you...
you say I interpret scripture with my own meaning.. with what right do you have to say that?

are you the infallible interpreter of scripture...

I already answered your elder question.. if you can't see the connection then you need lesson teacher

Splinz:
By whose instruction and what purpose?

You say don't make any images of things in heaven .. and I just showed you where something in heaven was made...

Splinz:
Yes, for real. For He who said "You shall not make unto thee any craven image" also said "of any likeness of anything that is in heaven above (Jesus is in heaven) or on the earth beneath..."

Cherubims are angelic beings in heaven yet an "idol" of them was built on the ark, (exo 25:18) and in the temple (1 kings 6)

Themandator:
Is there anywhere in the scripture where "dead saints" interceded for the living saints or they all did their intercession while alive?

Go and read the earlier posts on the this thread

Smeago007:
While they are alive they are saints
When they die

Its not your business what they are
We weren't told what they are after death.
Cos that how you go on believing things human put up as doctrine or beliefs

Funny you.. read your Bible..

Hebrews 12:1Therefore, since we are surrounded by so great a cloud of witnesses, let us also lay aside every weight, and sin which clings so closely, and let us run with perseverance the race that is set before us,

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect

Hebrews 13: 7 Remember your leaders, those who spoke to you the word of God; consider the outcome of their life, and imitate their faith.


ITS OUR BUSINESS WHO THEY ARE AFTER THEY DIE, BECAUSE WE HOPE TO BE WHERE THEY ARE... AND FOLLOW THEIR EXAMPLES BETTER IF WE KNOW THE REWARD THEY RECEIVED

Amberon:
You bow to Mary when you claim to worship right? That my dear connotes worship to Mary.

then by that statement..

Solomon was worshiping his mother,

Jacob was worshiping his brother and Jesus commands the synagogue of Satan Jew's to worship The Philadelphians..

Yet they say we are ignorant

Amberon:
Even a statue of Jesus that you bow down to is an idol.

indeed.. Just like the Cherubims on the ark of the covenant (exo 25:18), the bronze serpent that brought healing from snake bites (num 21: which was pointing to Christ (john 3:14)
Or Solomon and all the Jew's who worship God in his temple because that temple is filled with "idol" see 1 kings 6 and 7..

Amberon:
You obviously know what kind of bowing I'm talking about. We are discussing God so don't bring in how Englishmen bow to ladies.

Bowing to any statue , image or whatever in worship is completing wrong and the bible is clear on this.

I don't know what kind of bowing you're talking about...

LIKE I SAID EVEN BIBLICALLY.. NOT ALL BOWING CONNOTE WORSHIP.. AND WE HAVE TOLD YOU THAT OURS DOESN'T CONNOTE WORSHIP.. YOU DON'T KNOW WHAT I'M DOING MORE THAN I DO..

HERE ARE SOME BIBLICAL BOWING WHICH DO NOT CONNOTE WORSHIP

1 kings 2:19 So Bathshe′ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni′jah. And the king rose to meet her,and bowed down to her;

Gen 33:6 Then the maids drew near, they and their children, and bowed down; 7 Leah likewise and her children drew near and bowed down; and last Joseph and Rachel drew near, and they bowed down.

Gen 27:29 Let peoples serve you,and nations bow down to you. Be lord over your brothers,and may your mother’s sons bow down to you.

psalm 72:9 May his foes bow down before him,

If all bowing is worship then Jesus would be causing people to be idolatrous by his words in Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you.

ALL THIS DO NOT MEAN WORSHIP

[quote author=Smeago007 post=56734454][/quote]So people who endured and died in friendship with Christ are not saints, they stop being saints when they die??

the dead in Christ are living indeed because our God is a God of the Living see Mat 22:32... you read the whole Bible

Oracle16:
Who are the Saints? Anyone who is a born again is a Saint. I am a Saint.

INDEED.. WE BELIEVE ALL CHRISTIANS ARE SAINTS, BUT ONLY THOSE WHO ARE IN HEAVEN CAN EXCLUSIVELY CLAIM THE TITLE BECAUSE THEY HAVE RECEIVED THE CROWN OF GLORY, BORN AGAIN CHRISTIANS CAN BACKSLIDE OR FALL AWAY AND NO LONGER BE SAINTS BUT APOSTATES AND SINNERS BUT THOSE IN HEAVEN CANNOT.. unless you believe in OSAS

WE BELIEVE THERE ARE SAINTS IN HEAVEN AND SAINTS ON EARTH..

Splinz:
More pitiable is he who thinks in his head that the true Church was ever a part of the Synagogue of Satan. What delusion can be greater than this?

Anyway, for those who don't even know when the New Testament Church was birthed, silly assumptions can't be ruled out.

I LAUGH IN LATIN

LaClicKLaBenDin:
The 24 elders are humans? Really? Please tell me who they are and please use biblical backing.

The 24 elders are definitely not angels, nor are they Jesus or the Holy Spirit..

So what could they be?

the word elder comes from the Greek word " presbyteroi".. this word is used about 67 times in the new testament and in every case, representing a "HUMAN MAN" Just do a word search on your Bible or internet, I don't have the patience to go through all of them with you...

Some apostles like Peter and John called themselves elders see 1 Peter 5:1, 2 john 1:1, 3 john 1:1,

Elders were part of the early church see acts 11:30, 14:23, 15:2, 15:4, 15:6, 15:22-23, 16:4, 20:17, 21:18,

PAUL said that the Elders laying hands on people could pass power to them.. see 1 Tim 4:14..

Paul also says that double honor should be given to the elders who rule 1 Tim 5:17..

Paul tells Timothy and Titus to appoint elders see Titus 1:5, 2 Tim 2:2,

THE POINT IS, IN ALL THESE INSTANCES ELDERS ARE HUMAN BEINGS, BY DEDUCTION, ELDERS IN THE BOOK OF REVELATION SHOULD REPRESENT HUMANS NO MATTER THE LITERARY GENRE REVELATION WAS WRITTEN IN, IT HAS TO BE CONSISTENT WITH THE REST OF THE BIBLE USAGE OF THE WORD

Amberon:
Quit eating your time. They will never change. They always justify their idolatry by saying we have pictures of out pastors in churches and cars. The question is , do we bow down to those pictures?

Even biblically all bowing does not connote worship..

The English gentleman bows to greet a lady or fellow gentlemen, or when he wants to ask her to dance..

the Chinese people bow to each other as a sign of respect or a greeting..

Yoruba people prostrate to greet their elders

Some men kneel during engagement to ask for a lady's hand..

All these acts do not mean worship,

You don't know what is in our hearts when we kneel or bow only God does, let him judge us if he sees our Bowing or kneeling as worship..

chimaobinelson:
I wish I can pick out ur poorly understood listed points and clarify u one by one.
Firstly, the Bible advice u not to mk any graven image, whether of ANY LIKENESS IN HEAVEN, BENEATH nor perform any WORSHIP (including acts of worship) into them. Now,what is kneeling before anyone/thing? submission /act of worship right? bro u r nt wiser than God.
Again, u recited d angels biblical salutation to Mary OK, why would the Catholic insert the umbilical "pray for all sinners" clause?
remember the Bible warns not to add or subtract from it.
You always reference the old testament(the law) while claiming a christian . Galatians told us that the law existed to keep men in checks until the coming of Jesus (the promise) just as Ishmael was, until the coming of Isaac (the promise) what happnd to Ishmael? he was cast out with the mother. I'm saying this cos u mentioned saints,Abraham in intersections.
Jesus in his word "No one comes to The Father except through him. pls lemme stop here cos of I'm having flat battery. Dou Mary had Idaho children who mostly don't believe in Jesus as Christ

Not all bowing connote worship


1 kings 2:19 So Bathshe′ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni′jah. And the king rose to meet her,and bowed down to her;Gen 33:6 Then the maids drew near, they and their children, and bowed down; 7 Leah likewise and her children drew near and bowed down; and last Joseph and Rachel drew near, and they bowed down.

Gen 27:29 Let peoples serve you,and nations bow down to you.Be lord over your brothers,and may your mother’s sons bow down to you.

psalm 72:9 May his foes bow down before him,

If all bowing is worship then Jesus would be causing people to be idolatrous by his words in
Rev 3:9 Behold, I will make those of the synagogue of Satan who say that they are Jews and are not, but lie—behold, I will make them come and bow down before your feet, and learn that I have loved you.

on statues
Statues were used in the old testament temple Solomon built for God, and God didn't regard it as idolatry,
in 1 kings 6: 23 In the inner sanctuary he made two cherubim of olivewood, each ten cubits high. 24 Five cubits was the length of one wing of the cherub, and five cubits the length of the other wing of the cherub; it was ten cubits from the tip of one wing to the tip of the other.He decorated it with carvings too
1 kings 6:29 He carved all the walls of the house round about with carved figures of cherubim and palm trees and open flowers, in the inner and outer rooms.Even in the Holy of holies where God dwelled in the temple 15 feet tall golden statues were thereand after building with statues God consecrated that temple to himself
1 kings 8: 6 Then the priests brought theark of the covenant of the Lord to its place, in the inner sanctuary of the house, in the most holy place, underneath the wings of the cherubim. 10 And when the priests came out of theholy place, a cloud filled the house of the Lord, 11 so that the priests could notstand to minister because of the cloud; for the glory of the Lord filled the house of the Lord.
1 kings 9: 3 And the Lordsaid to him, “I have heard your prayer and your supplication, which you have made before me; I have consecrated this house which you have built, and put my name there for ever; my eyes and my heart will be there for all time..God also commanded statues of cherubims to be made on the ark
Exo 25: 18 And you shall make two cherubim of gold; of hammered work shall you make them, on the two ends ofthe mercy seat. 19 Make one cherub on the one end, and one cherub on the other end; of one piece with the mercy seat shall you make the cherubim on its two ends. 20 The cherubim shall spread out their wings above, overshadowing the mercy seat with their wings, their faces one to another; toward the mercy seat shall the faces of the cherubim be.

THE FACT ABOUT ADDING TO THE WORD BY ADDING TO THE HAIL MARY DOESN'T MAKE SENSE.. WE ARE NOT ADDING GREETING IN LUKE 1... JUST LIKE PEOPLE WHO PRAY WITH PSALMS OR FORM SONGS FROM SCRIPTURE ARE NOT ADDING TO IT

LaClicKLaBenDin:
Smh...you read the Bible and make out your own meaning, just to give fake credence to your fake religious practices.

Besides the holy spirit who makes intercession for us and through us, Jesus is the only other part of the Trinity who makes intercession for our sins.

Until you show me where in explicitly says that saints make intercession for us, I don't mean giving me Bible passages that you implied its meaning on your own...show me Bible passages where it is clear and direct about the subject of saints interceding for us.

I gave you a quote already.. you said only Jesus makes intercession, I have showed you the Holy Spirit does also..

The 24 elders in rev 5:8 are humans and since they are in heaven they are saints offering prayers of saints on Earth to God...

Here's a question for you.. what gives you the right to say which interpretation is implied on my own, the Church has had that belief...

Who made you the authority of scripture, to decide who is right and wrong in their interpretation, or which interpretation is personal

LaClicKLaBenDin:
I pity your gross ignorance!

So, the spirit is now dead saints?
Please tell me who those elders in that passage are!
The prayers of the saints mentioned there, are the prayers of the saints here on earth: ◄ Psalm 141:2 ►

New International Version
May my prayer be set before you like incense; may the lifting up of my hands be like the evening sacrifice.

New Living Translation
Accept my prayer as incense offered to you, and my upraised hands as an evening offering.

English Standard Version
Let my prayer be counted as incense before you, and the lifting up of my hands as the evening sacrifice!

You, my friend, are grossly ignorant and misguided!

you say am ignorant.. but it's you who's ignorant because you didn't even read to understand..

if the Saints in rev 5:8 are on earth then it proves my point.. The 24 elders in heaven carry the prayers of the Saints on earth to God.. making them intercessors..

I DON'T KNOW WHAT YOU'RE TRYING TO PROVE WITH PSALMS because I know the incense is symbolic of prayers it says so right there in rev 5:8...

the issue is are the 24.elders Jesus?

there's also the issue of The holy spirit and the angels making intercession (offering our prayers and helping us to pray ). ...

YOU'RE THE ONE WHO SAID ONLY JESUS INTERCEDES FOR US IN HEAVEN.. I JUST SHOWED YOU SOME OTHERS WHO DO THROUGH JESUS

ignorance indeed

LaClicKLaBenDin:
Just show me anywhere in the Bible that talks about saints in heaving making intercession and I will show you in the Bible where Jesus was declared not just the mediator but also our intercessor in heaven.

Rev 5:8.. 8:3, Romans 8:26

We believe Jesus is the one mediator between God and man according to 1 Tim 2:5, you misquote the context.. read the verse after it

1 Tim 2: 5 For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus, 6 WHO GAVE HIMSELF as a RANSOM FOR ALL, the testimony to which was borne at the proper time..

It's the same thing 1 John 2 says

1 john 2:1bwe have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous; 2 and he is the expiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

IT'S IN THIS ASPECT THAT JESUS IS THE ONE MEDIATOR OF THE NEW COVENANT.. WE BELIEVE THIS BECAUSE WE KNOW MARY AND THE SAINTS DID NOT DIE FOR OUR SINS ONLY JESUS DID..

BUT IN TERMS OF PRAYERS .. WE CAN ALL PRAY FOR EACH OTHER

LaClicKLaBenDin:
Please shut up already! Their are dead saints and living saints!
The ones you pray to are dead to us, even if they are living in heaven! And let me categorically say this: no saint in heaven can in heaven can ever intervened for you.

The job of intercession belongs exclusively to Jesus!

Again you're wrong...

Romans 8:26 Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we ought, but the SPIRIT HIMSELF INTERCEDES FOR US with sighs too deep for words.

Rev 5:8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four ELDERS fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden bowls full of incense, which are the PRAYERS of THE SAINTS;

rev 8: 3And another angel came and stood at the altar with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; 4 and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God

these verses clearly state that the Holy Spirit, Elders in heaven and Angels play a role in intercession

LaClicKLaBenDin:
That's purely your opinion and it has no biblical foundation.

oh brother.. it does..

Romans 12, 1 cor 12.. Romans 8:35-38 says nothing can separate us from the love of God in Christ.. Neither death nor heights etc..

Here's a better question for you...
With what authority do you say it's just my opinion.. and it's " unbiblical",
Who made you the authority to decide what is biblical or not..
Or don't you believe all Christians have the right to interpret scriptures as directed by the spirit..

LaClicKLaBenDin:
Uncle, please stop twisting the scriptures!
All the people you mentioned who made intercession according to you, were all living. No dead saint can help you, only Christ can!
For there is only one mediator between man and God, and He is Jesus Christ!
I repeat, no dead saint can help you!

Indeed only Christ can.. but they being members of the body of Christ can help us with their prayers since they do that through Christ by being members of his body

oz4real83:
how do u know the ''christians in heaven''? The bibles says '' on d last day, ''THE DEAD IN CHRIST'' will rise first''

My friend.. unless you're an Adventist.. who believes in soul sleep.. most other Christians believe that once you die in God's friendship you are judged and you either go to heaven or hell.. see Hebrews 9:27 ...

The dead in Christ shall indeed rise, but it is their dead bodies.. their souls are in heaven or hell..

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable angels in festal gathering, 23 and to the assembly of the first-born who are enrolled in heaven, and to a judge who is God of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

if you're an Adventist please indicate, if not let me know your denomination then I can relate better

Ajejeje:
1 timothy 2:5 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; I think the chapter of praying to saint is close now

go and read 1 Tim 2:1-4

oz4real83:
All religions or beliefs have one thing in common:There is God. The only contention is d way or medium to get to God. Muslims believe that way is mohammed. Pagans believe it is through ogun,sango etc. Hinduists believe it is through indui. Buhdists say d way is buhda. So many religions believe one way or d other. Christians know and believe it is through Jesus christ. He is d only way because evidences abound. If catholics decide to pray to God through dead believers or mary,it becomes very clear that they are different from christians. They are a different religion. Jesus is d only way to God!!!

You're wrong.. Catholics pray through Jesus alone... the difference is that we ask both Christians on earth and in heaven to pray for us... not that we pray through them.. all prayer is answered through Jesus

Paul says in 1 Tim 2:1First of all, then, I urge that supplications, prayers, intercessions, and thanksgivings be made for all men, 2 for kings and all who are in high positions, that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life, godly and respectful in every way. 3 THIS IS GOOD, and IT IS ACCEPTABLE IN the SIGHT of GOD our Savior, 4 who desires all men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Jesus also encourages us to pray for one another.. see Matt 5:44

We ask Christians in heaven for their prayers...
just like I can ask you to pray for me I can also ask Christians in heaven..

besides
We don't conclude our prayers with IN MARY'S NAME WE PRAY, OR IN SAINTS NAME WE PRAY...


ITS EITHER IN JESUS NAME WE PRAY, OR THROUGH CHRIST OUR LORD..

JMAN05:
nothing like knight in the bible. So i dont understand.

Sorry oh.. but if you don't understand simply principle because it's not in the Bible then I wonder how you went to school and did subjects like chemistry, physics, biology, economics or commerce..

Teacher: Economics is the branch of knowledge concerned with
the production, consumption, and transfer
of wealth.

Student: Nothing like Economics in the Bible so I don't understand...

ITS SIMPLE REASONING... IN NIGERIA, PEOPLE CALL MEDICAL STUDENTS DOCTORS, THEIR PARENTS ARE CALLED PAPA AND MAMA DOCTOR EVEN THOUGH THEY HAVE NOT ROUNDED UP THEIR EDUCATION YET AND HAVE NOT STARTED WORK, EVEN THOUGH WHEN THEY FINISH SCHOOL AND HAVE TAKEN THE OATH IS WHEN THEY BECOME ACTUAL DOCTORS...

ALL CHRISTIANS ARE SAINTS, BUT SOME CAN FALL AWAY AND RELINQUISH THAT TITLE SO UNTIL YOU'RE ACTUALLY IN HEAVEN YOU CAN'T ACTUALLY BE DECLARED A SAINT....

MZLady39:
Here's a website with a good explanation for your question my brother.

https://www.gotquestions.org/John-20-23.html

Gotquestion.com is owned by a Calvinist heretic called Michael Houdmann so that influences all his "Answers". His OSAS corrupts all of his theology.. So I would not trust anything on that site. even fellow evangelicals disagree with his scriptural interpretations... Besides gotquestions is not the infallible interpreter of scripture

MZLady39:
Brother....sorry but I cannot agree with that
Now I'm tired. The discussion's gone on long enough don't you think?
This has been very interesting though.
Thanks for your time

the whole issue boils down... to Authority..
One or two Persons interpretation of scripture... or what the early Christians believed and the Church has believed since the beginning..

Thanks for your Time also.. have a good night

1

MZLady39:
So your goal is to do what my brother?

To show that the disciples were given the power to forgive and retain sins John 20:23, just like they were given power to preach, baptize, speak in tongue, heal etc

MZLady39:
And that my brother....is where we will forever disagree....

If the disciples/apostles could lay hands on faithful men to bring them into God's service, (2 tim 2:2, 2 Tim 1:6-7), It shows that the apostles could ordain successors.. and their successors could do the same.. forming a chain of ordination...
Just like our ancestors gave birth to their children who gave birth to theirs and so on until our grandparents and to our parents and to us and the Chain continues until the end of the world...

Remember mat 28:20.. lo, I will be with you till the end of the age...

and like Paul says in Ephesians 3:21
New International Version
to him be glory in the church and in Christ
Jesus throughout all generations, for ever
and ever! Amen.
New Living Translation
Glory to him in the church and in Christ
Jesus through all generations forever and
ever! Amen.

MZLady39:
Havr you ever offended someone and not only apologized but asked for their forgiveness?
I'm not calling that "power". The power that Christ has.

Refusing to forgive someone is a different case, and God condemns it.. The beatitudes say blessed are the merciful. for they shall have mercy shown them.. So if I don't show mercy to those who offend me, I might not have mercy shown to me..

You are making an assumption that Jesus was saying if anyone offended the disciples...
John 20:23 says if you forgive ANYONE... not if you forgive those who offend you...

THE DISCIPLES WERE GIVEN POWER TO RETAIN SINS.. NOT JUST NOT FORGIVE SOMEONES SIN...

MZLady39:
So who's forgiving sins now?

Whoever has the line of ordination back to the apostles ... who had the original power and passed it on to their successors