₦airaland Forum

Themandator:
Oya, Interpret what you meant by your statement that the holy spirit said the church , catholic, is the foundation and pillar of truth






I don't remember stating that Jesus ordered us to read the bible back to back but be that as it may be , I would say that if Jesus found what was written condcerning him in the book, you have no choice but be about diligent study for Apostle Paul understood by book and also Daniel understood that the season of return was near by book


I would have agreed with you on image but for constant vigilance through the book and books

Until the book is opened destiny remains closed is one of my favourite quotes from a great servant of God

Here's a question for you.. Are images objectively or intrinsically sinful idolatrous or demonic??

Themandator:
Because grace is in levels. That you carry the spirit of God doesnt mean you carry the same levels of grace. While Jesus was around, the apostles where known as disciples because you are a disciple to the one that teaches you the truth you dont know. When he left, they became apostles teaching another sets of disciples ....You don't expect their disciples to Carry the same amount of depth of the knowledge of God as themselves hence the handkerchiefs carried the excess grace ( authority) that they were yet to build up in themselves to places where such was needed.


The apostles and their disciples are not gracemates....So they can't do same mighty works

If you read those passages in context it doesn't talk about levels of Grace per say neither does it compare Paul or Peter with any of their disciples, those passages only point to the great miracles God did through them using MATERIAL OBJECTS.. No disciples of either was mentioned in the immediate context.. the passages definitely shows that God can do great things with material objects from special people...

Acts 19:11 And God did extraordinary miracles by the hands of Paul, 12 so that handkerchiefs or aprons were carried away from his body to the sick, and diseases left them and the evil spirits came out of them.

acts 5: 12 Now many signs and wonders were done among the people by the hands of the apostles. And they were all together in Solomon’s Portico.13 None of the rest dared join them, but the people held them in high honor. 14 And more than ever believers were added to the Lord, multitudes both of men and women, 15 so that they even carried out the sick into the streets, and laid them on beds and pallets, that as Peter came by at least his shadow might fall on some of them. 16 The people also gathered from the towns around Jerusalem, bringing the sick and those afflicted with unclean spirits, and they were all healed.

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Themandator:
So sorry I can't repeat all this with you , I have gone through it with italo that if you do a back read of the last four pages you are most likely to find them but to answer this one: in the old God visited his people and stayed in those objects to speak to them but after the new covenant, this cease to be the practice as he came down into men on Pentecost and our very self became the temple , the ark , stone etc


The old believers had the experience of visitation but the new covenant believers have indwelling of God ....We are now all gods and children of the Most High ....Psalm 82:6 ...... John 10:34

I agree with you.. but Catholics don't require God to speak to them through images.. they are reminders of special people to us, and we treat those images with respect... God speaks to us through his words, through the mouth of his ministers and through the Church.. We don't believe The statue itself is Mary or that it contains Mary, or that the crucifix is Jesus or that it contains Jesus. but we believe God can use them just like he uses any other material thing.. and we treat them with respect not WORSHIP because of whom they represent

Themandator:
You did not discuss personal lives you only threw tantrum at my Pastor or Pastors in reply to one of my rejoinder that you have seen how the higher grace has led them to be sleeping with girls and I fired back ..........By asking you to google your former bishop of Warri and sex scandal. ......Then we were squared out and returned to image subject matter

I never had any such discussion with you.. check your comments and mentions properly

Themandator:
The flag doesn't remind a Nigerian that he is a Nigerian .....He knows once he comes if age that he is a Nigeria ......There is no flag that remind me that I am an Igbo man. I just know that I am.

The flag is only for the purpose of identifying a Nigerian amongst other nations. It is what tells us that this is a Nigerian. ...We confirm it by saluting what gives us identity in military fashion

A Christian doesn't need a flag or image to tell him that he is a Christian ....Being Born again and receiving the gift if the holy ghost evidence by speaking in tongues like the 12 apostles is your sure rout to your root in Christ .


To identify yourself amongst unbelievers , your flag is Mark 16:17...... These signs shall follow them that believe ........
Not these images shall be erected by them that believe ........

Indeed, a Nigerian doesn't need a flag to know he Is a Nigerian,
A Catholic doesn't need images to know he Is a Catholic either..

Unbelievers don't believe in Jesus and honor his mother..

Muslims don't, pagans don't..

Speaking in tongues and miracles is not the only sign which can also be found in Catholicism..

the greater sign is love and unity.. (1 cor 13:1-13, Mat 5:14-17, John 17:20-21)

people who speak in tongues and work miracles still go to hell (mat 7:21-23)

you know people according to their way of life .. (mat 7:19-20)

you know good Catholics by their way of life not by statues... just like you know good Nigerians by them obeying good civic rules..
THAT DOESN'T MEAN THAT WHEN YOU SEE A FLAG IT DOESN'T TELL YOU TOO THAT NIGERIANS ARE HERE..

AN EMBASSY, A SCHOOL, AND IN ALL THESE PLACES THE FLAG IS SALUTED...
AS FOR THE IGBO MAN, HE KNOWS HE IS IGBO. BUT PEOPLE WOULD KNOW HIM TO BE IGBO BY HIS CULTURE, FOOD, DRESSING, ETC WHICH ARE MATERIAL THINGS

and all these material things whether flag or dressing, or coat of arm.. THEY ARE RESPECTED

Themandator:
By the way , if your church doesn't teach that those images that glitters your landscape contains God why then have you been comparing and mentioning the ark of the tabernacle that actually had the presence of God , as your supporting evidence.


And now that you agree and your church agrees that it doesn't contain God , what then is responsible for the news that has come out of some of parishes that some planted there shed tears of blood? Remember it doesn't contain God ......Simple answer should be my earlier stand that demons are responsible for such display as such occurrence has no scriptural precedence.

They don't contain God but God can use them, just like he used Paul's handkerchief and Peter's shadow, concerning the ark... the ark, the point was that God commanded images to be made.. cherubims on the ark, the brass serpent did not contain God but God used it to heal the Israelites in the deserts all these did not contain demons I wonder why Catholic images must contain demons according to you

Themandator:
You have written this epistle just to prove that fornicating is not limited to your fathers and bishops. I was of the mind that before you mentioned pastors sleeping with ladies that you were not aware that majority of your church leaders are wolves in sheep's clothing were ladies are concerned.


I never raised the matter of personal lives of church leaders,. You did and had to string along before you runaway with the idea that those guys on white on saints.

No body holy pass.


Our discourse remains image worship.

I cited a rejoinder where you queried that , so Elijah apron can be imported into the new testament but not image .


Sir , let me pour more light on what I wrote ...... I stated that Elijah act I the old testament was covered in the new testament by Paul handkerchiefs act ....Again , in the mouth of two or three is a thing confirmed .....The action is in the old as well as the new covenant. Not so with image....Image ended in the old testament because we replaced them when we receive the holy ghost


God no longer stays in stones to talk to us , he lives inside us .


The old testament people never had the spirit of God inside them , when he comes he stays in an object or the cloud and speak and then goes away ......That is what I meant by visitation.

I never discussed personal lives of ministers with you...

YOU SAY MAJORITY OF CATHOLIC CLERGY ARE IMMORAL.. do you have good proof for that.. or is it a biased assumption..
anyway all of that is still Non sequitor...

again.. Maybe it's not clear.. Catholics don't believe that our images contains God, They are reminders.. Like Pictures.. They don't contain God, but they are material things which God can use.. just like he used Peter's shadow and Elijah's mantle..

The crucifix is not a charm.. but a reminder of Christ suffering on the cross..
Mary's statue is not a god to be worshipped.. but a picture of a dear mother whom Christ gave to the disciple he loved and by extension to us..

ALL THESE IMAGES ARE RESPECTED BECAUSE OF WHOM THEY SIGNIFY NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE GOD'S OR BECAUSE THEY CONTAIN GOD..

people salute the flag, stand still at the National Anthem.. pledge allegiance to the country out of respect and honor..

The church doesn't teach that Images contains God..

P.S. in the time of Paul.. there was no Bible to be studied and agreed upon.... what they had was the teaching authority of the apostles in the church.. Jesus never left a bible.. what he left were apostles to found a church with teaching authority see Matt 28: 18 And Jesus came and said to them, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me.19 Go THEREFORE and MAKE DISCIPLES of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 TEACHING THEM TO OBSERVE ALL THAT I HAVE COMMANDED YOU; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”
Jesus says

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”
John says 1 john 4:6 We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Paul says 2 thess 2:15 So then, brethren, stand firm and hold to the traditions which you were taught by us, either by word of mouth or by letter.

the teaching came from the apostles.. who were heads of the Church, not from a bible.. it Is from this church that the letters and accounts of Jesus life was compiled for Christians so that they may not be taught error by Pope Damascus in 382 AD at the Council in Rome and was ratified at the Council of hippo 393 and confirmed at the Council of Carthage in 397AD...

WHEN PAUL WAS TALKING TO TIMOTHY IN 2 TIM 3 HE WASN'T TALKING ABOUT YOUR 27 BOOK NEW TESTAMENT KING JAMES AS SCRIPTURES INSTEAD HE WAS TALKING ABOUT THE JEWISH SCRIPTURES, THE SEPTUAGINT..

EVEN WITH THOSE SCRIPTURES HE EMPHASIZED THE ROLES OF THE TEACHERS WHO TIMOTHY LEARNED THE FAITH FROM...

2 Timothy3: 14 But as for you, continue in what you have learned and have firmly believed, KNOWING FROM WHOM YOU LEARNED IT and how from childhood you have been acquainted with the sacred writings which are able to instruct you for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

Themandator:
When meaning is not clear start from the beginning is the admonition of my Bishop. Go back and re read the entire page ....The church is not a building but a collection of saints ...We are the church , the house of the living God ....He came down into us on Pentecost.....We are the pillar and ground of truth and we forsake not the assembly of the saints for we are gods and children of the most high.

We come and agree in the truth from the scripture as taught by the only teacher if the saints , the holy spirit. The Bible is the collection of the activities of the early saints and Christ. It is written for our examples and guide ......Romans 15:4


You solve mathematical problems by studying examples ...Where did you get your idea that after Pentecost images were still acceptable to God as his seeking place?


My Pastor has never said anything he could not find in the scripture, particularly the new testament. If it is in the old and not new you can ignore it .

You catholics are predictable in discussion, when your points don't fly play to the gallery ......Focus on our image subject and not my part for not even your pope has imparted your life since he was sworn him ...Or can you host any message he gave that has lighted your spirit and knowledge of God.

I value my pastor and bishop more than your pope for you people claim that Peter was your first pope and he took his time to go minister to new conversation and played hands on them to received the gift of the holy ghost evidences by speaking in tongues but your brand of Peter doesn't speak let alone lay hands on others to receive


Finish your image worship and come write another satanic rejoinder from Joshua since your pope doesn't know that Joshua never had God dwelling inside of him like it is the case today after Pentecost.

Go and romance that high rise image of a woman encased in glass and tell her to pray to your God for you. My Bishop say we pray directly through Jesus and in the name of Jesus and showed us where it is in the Bible ....I am the way the truth and the kids and no one comes to the father except by me ...Very clear


You support your argument with the rich fool who is not even a believer all just to stay afloat and be considered to the making sense

With all due respect to you.. you just wrote out of ignorance...

have you read any of the Pope's encyclical letter? do you know how many countries he has travelled to? Do you know the dept of his ministry..

The Pope doesn't need to televise miracles, for people to see..

here's a question for you.. who's your bishop, tell me when he laid hands on people and they received the Holy Spirit..

Speaking in tongues is not the only manifestation of the Holy Spirit..

Themandator:
The catholic church is home to gay fathers. Just Google the catholic bishops of Warri and sex scandal and see what turns up ...If the woman had nor confess he would probably have been in line for your sainthood .....So many of your father can't swear that they have been true to what they swore to .


So if one that marries can fall you can imagine what the one that claims not to need a woman you be doing behind your back .....Get close to the beautiful ladies in your church and hear who your real father is

I was once a Catholic.

The fact that there are people unfaithful to their celibacy vow doesn't prove anything.. you can't judge a practice by people who don't follow it.

there are also adulterous and homosexual pastors around also.. I guess that would mean Pentecostalism is wrong too..

The fact that you were once Catholic, if you actually were doesn't prove anything...

Pastors fornicate too. yet in your earlier comment you said they are a source of Grace..
Suleiman had sex scandal, Biodun coza had sex scandal, oyakhilome had infidelity issues etc.. that would point to penticostalism being false too..

Pentecostalism using your logic can also be called home of adulterers and fornicators.. just google PASTOR SEX SCANDAL
your argument is non sequitor

Am sure if I talk to the girls in Pentecostal churches I would find out interesting things about pastors too..

THE CURE FOR IMMORALITY IS CHASTITY NOT MARRIAGE BECAUSE MARRIED PASTORS ALSO COMMIT ADULTERY AND FORNICATION AND INDULGE IN HOMOSEXUAL ACTIVITIES

Izonpikin:


Make I laugh small...

Consecrated virgins..and I just can't find it from Genesis to revelation. .oh I forgot there are other fairy tale books...

FAIRY TALE BOOKS.. that tells me just how much you know about canonical and non canonical writings of the early church ..

Christianity is not just biblical but also historical, Jesus is not just biblical figure but Also a historical person , there are historical aspects of virtually all biblical characters.. especially new testament ones... The Bible doesn't say everything about their lives you can read historical accounts about some of them also.. some eyewitness testimony of their lives which are not part of the Bible canon

Widen your scope if you want to discuss intelligibly.. Don't hide behind "show me in the Bible "

there are many things not recorded in the Bible as the Bible itself says (see John 21:25, john 20:30)...

Izonpikin:
please showe from the apocryphal writings that they weren't normal husband and wife...just show me...i am all out for you guys..

Joseph knew Mary was his loving wife and he had sex with her...God did not ban them...Mary was not a nun...

Where did the Bible tell you that Joseph knew Mary was his loving wife and that he had sex with her??

book verse and chapter

or is that your carnal inference

Izonpikin:
please showe from the apocryphal writings that they weren't normal husband and wife...just show me...i am all out for you guys..

Joseph knew Mary was his loving wife and he had sex with her...God did not ban them...Mary was not a nun...

maybe you have never heard of consecrated virgins before...

Go and read the PROTOEVANGELIUM OF JAMES..

To use your own language.. Read and expose your ignorance..

I have not even mention the testimony of early Christians...

Besides that the fathers of Protestantism Luther and Calvin believed it too

Izonpikin:
my bible said they were husband and wife...the onus is on you Mary worshippers to show she never slept with her husband...how can a wife not sleep with her husband??..did God ban her??..not even the apocryphal writings can help out with that falsehood...


You guys have denied Innocent Joseph of sleeping with his wife..

I hope you haven't slept with your wife since you married her...??

Rubbish

Joseph and Mary are not ordinary husband and wife.. You should know that atleast.. Mary was no ordinary woman.. So Joseph did not treat her as an ordinary wife...

JOSEPH KNEW WHO SHE WAS.. UNLIKE YOU WHO EMPHASIZE SEX THAT YOU CAN'T PROVE HAPPENED

WHICH VERSE OF THE BIBLE EXPLICITLY SAYS Joseph had sex with Mary ?

Izonpikin:
please show me the testimonies oh you idol worshipper...

Please show me the secondary book that should give us eternal life...

All these to prove a married woman never had sex with her dear husband so that she can be molded and worshipped ...

Freaks..

You have resorted to name calling..

WE ARE NOT TALKING ABOUT ETERNAL LIFE HERE.. WE ARE TALKING ABOUT MARY'S LIFE

Again You emphasize sex.. just shows your mentality

Izonpikin:



So at this point we have to sick external sources other than the bible to prove Mary never slept with her husband..tufiakwa

your ignorance is indeed showing...

I assume you think whatever is not in the Bible is automatically not true or non existent

the Bible doesn't contain every detail of Mary's life..

the Bible is primarily all about Jesus but still yet.. it doesn't contain all Jesus did and it says so itself in John's gospel

John 20: 30 Now Jesus did many other signs in the presence of the disciples, which are not written in this book;

John 21:25 But there are also many other things which Jesus did; were every one of them to be written, I suppose that the world itself could not contain the books
that would be written.

1..THE BIBLE WAS NOT WRITTEN PRIMARILY ABOUT MARY'S LIFE..

2. MARY WAS A HISTORICAL FIGURE NOT JUST A BIBLICAL ONE.. SO THERE ARE OTHER TESTIMONIES TO HER LIFE APART FROM THE BIBLE ..

Izonpikin:
travel oo..and the internet couldn't produce the fact Joseph never slept with his wife or had sex with her till he died..mtsheew...

Historical and early church writings can which you can find on the internet...

I said provide evidence of your two siblings having exactly the same name.. the internet is more than enough for that..
unless you don't have any.. then just say so and keep quiet

Izonpikin:
please show me where it is said mary is God's property and so God had her womb blocked from having other kids...

Show me or forever shut your ignorance or shove your paganism into your ass

I am not as ignorant as you.. I don't believe everything must be written word for word in the Bible for it to be true....

The Bible never talked about Mary and Joseph's sex life yet you assume they had sex numerous times...

Read historical documents you won't, read early church writings you won't yet You are the ones calling people ignorant..

TALK ABOUT POT CALLING KETTLE BLACK

Izonpikin:
please travel..your ignorance is way into the roof...travel to just bayelsa for a start...go and expose your stark ignorance there..

I no get money to travel...

I have google.. show me proof

you say am ignorant... help me expose it.. show me proof.. the internet contains all the reliable sources you need

Izonpikin:
you said it is not appropriate and so it has now become an international norm or standard

Seriously I should now jump and pronounce your assumptions valid...

Travel and understand how names are given to individuals within a family...

You are not making any sense... give me proof that in a family.. Two siblings have EXACTLY THE SAME NAME...
I DON'T NEED TO TRAVEL.. GOOGLE IS THERE.. PROVIDE PROOF

Izonpikin:
are you hearing yourself??...have you asked about if outsiders asked who would respond??..

Right there in the scriptures I showed you ignorant lots it was onlookers who identified Jesus to be the carpenters son and Mary's son at the same time....

Jesus even in addition differentiated his earthly family and that from his spiritual when he asked who are my brothers and mother??


It's right there for you guys to digest...

You still haven't answered me what you use that fettish rosary for and how it relates to christianity.

The part about being Mary's son doesn't talk about Mary's sister... if you're trying to educate us or evangelize us.. calling us ignorant doesn't help..

Jesus is Mary and the carpenters son doesn't show Mary's sister being called Mary..

I have a half brother john who my father birthed with another woman....

people around me can say is this not Easyman, Mr A Son, is Mrs B not his mother, Is John not his brother.. even if Mr's B (my mother) didn't give birth to John..

Brother (adelphoi)is also another word for cousins

If in my area, I and my cousin John are well known.. and the word for cousin is brother

People can still say
Is this not Easyman, Mr A's son.. is Mrs B not his mother.. is John not his "brother" ( cousin indeed but since there is no word for cousin, they call john my brother..

it's Simple.. but since most of you are hung up on sex between Mary and Joseph.. you can see this perfectly logical idea.. I'm not saying you should believe it.. but you should atleast consider it.. not in the Nigerian context but in the proper Hebrew context where Hebrew men respect vessels God has used.. and regard them because of God... Mary literally had a child for God, and Jesus occupied the womb of Mary.. Mary is God's property and Joseph being a righteous Jewish man realized that...

HE WAS NOT A SEX CRAZED MAN... So don't use sex as a criterion

Izonpikin:
and you had better move off from your ignorance and travel out to understand that no name is exclusive to a single person even from the same family. ..please travel down to bayelsa and observe how siblings are named...you guys ignorance is out of this world.. .

There are families where almost all the siblings have EBI as a base name for all of them. .Mary is just a name and nothing more ..her name isn't one that is sacred to her alone...mtsheew

No one said Mary"s name is exclusive, we said it is not appropriate for two sisters to have the same name...

You said that people can have the same base but there's a distinguishing suffix..
you can have Adeola and Adeoye in a family.. which I agree with.. but the fact that they have the same base doesn't mean they are the same name .....the question is Mary, can you show that there's a distinguishing suffix or prefix to the two Marys

Amberon:
Bowing down to a statue whenever you want to pray connotes worship and no denial can change that.

Enjoy your idolatry and delusions.

I don't answer to you... I answer to God.. I have told you what I believe, if you don't accept it then it concerns you..

Worry about your salvation not my "idolatry "

Amberon:
Bowing down to a statue whenever you want to pray connotes worship and no denial can change that.

Enjoy your idolatry and delusions.

I don't bow down to statues whenever I want to pray... that's what you say I do... which is wrong... I use the statue as a reminder, and I respect it because of who it represents and I pray with it.. NOT TO IT, AS A KIND OF PROXY... JUST LIKE A PERSON MIGHT TALK TO A PHOTOGRAPH OF A PERSON HE IS MISSING...

like I said let God who sees the heart judge.. not you.. WORRY ABOUT YOUR OWN SALVATION

Amberon:
Do you not understand what bowing in worship means. Why going round in circles. I already said this before.

FOR THE THOUSANDTH TIME.. WE HAVE TOLD YOU THAT OUR BOWING DOES NOT CONNOTE WORSHIP.. NA WE DEY BOW, NA WE KNOW WETIN WE DEY DO...

WORSHIP IS IN THE HEART.. AND GOD KNOWS THE HEART... ITS THE HEART AND THE INTENT THAT DISTINGUISHES WORSHIP FROM VENERATION OR GREETINGS

WHETHER YOU AGREE OR NOT ITS YOUR BUSINESS.. IF YOU THINK I AM COMMITTING IDOLATRY THEN THAT'S YOUR BUSINESS..
I KNOW THE REASON I AM BOWING AND GOD WHO SEES THE HEART KNOWS TOO

Amberon:
That's your headache.

it's my headache then why are you drinking Panadol for it...

leave me to my headache

Amberon:
Did they bow to their mothers in worship?

We have told you we don't worship them.. you cannot know what I'm doing more than me.. I have showed you from the Bible that not all bowing connote worship...

if you don't accept it then OYO for you

Izonpikin:
my sisters answer same name but with different suffixes..

tare[/b]lade and tamarau[b]tare...TARE remains their base names...

right in my house siblings answer same names..what are you guys dragging about??

You said different suffixes.. right there is your answer.. A difference..

Mary and Mary is the same.. no difference at all..

If their father calls Mary... who would respond...

Izonpikin:
i have two tares right in my house and here you are finding a get out of jail card...my dad and myself answer same name..see this ignorant people ooo...

It's like get out of jail free card is your favorite word..

father and Son have the distinction of Junior and Senior.. besides in the home, most people don't call their fathers by their names.. daddy suffices, so you either here junior or the name..

We are talking about sisters here.. not father-son having the same name..

You can find Father-son.. but you can't find siblings who are called by the same name...
Who's ignorant now?

Izonpikin:
so mary was the only person who answered mary in the scriptures??...what are you saying??

what about simon and joseph?? what about the sisters people identified as siblings of Jesus and daughters to the carpenter??

you are the one making no sense..in that same verse the carpenter and mary was mentioned but youve shifted the goal post to save your sorry ass but left the carpenter??

who is the carpenter that the observers associated Jesus with??...you have escaped simon and Joseph??

check up the greek word syg·ge·nonʹ which is used to connote relatives and not a·del·phoiʹ used for blood siblings.

infact Jesus had to clearly differentiate blood siblings from his spiritual brothers and sisters when he said in

Mark 3:31-35New International Version (NIV)

31 Then Jesus’ mother and brothers arrived. Standing outside, they sent someone in to call him. 32 A crowd was sitting around him, and they told him, “Your mother and brothers are outside looking for you.”

33 “Who are my mother and my brothers?” he asked.

34 Then he looked at those seated in a circle around him and said, “Here are my mother and my brothers! 35 Whoever does God’s will is my brother and sister and mother.”

Jesus in the open clearly differentiated his earthly half siblings and mother from his spiritual brethrens.

the package of mary and her other children is right in front of you but you've chosen to dance azonto on the issue.

Two sisters cannot have the same name...

Joseph and Joses are the same person...

the carpenters son doesn't mean it applies to all of them..

scripture doesn't provide many references to Simon but if three are not the son.. then Simon isn't either..

you going round in circles.. it won't help you.. it's just annoying and it shows obstinacy

Izonpikin:
oh..so you mean to tell me you dont know your history??.how the roman catholic church impeded the transliteration of the scriptures for the common man to read??..you want me to spoon feed you

Still waiting for your historical evidence