₦airaland Forum

MZLady39:
Brother,
I thought I had differentiated between the role of humans forgiving each other as opposed to Christ doing the ultimate forgiveness & cleansing.
Who do you confess your sins to?

No you have not... you seem to emphasize forgiveness as a power we all have.. to forgive those who offend us.. but John 20:23 Also includes a power to retain sins which Jesus also gives to humans (the apostles ).. Are we also free to retain sins, and if we do, will God hold it against us

MZLady39:
I was only speaking about the disciples' "forgiving & retaining" sins. That is my issue.
Not the other roles.

Forgiving Sin is part of the package they were given.. and they could pass everything on.. the Power they were passing did not exclude John 20:23.. Or do you have where it is written that Laying on of hands could pass Preaching, healing, baptizing but not forgiving sin?

MZLady39:
Brother....ok.
So since the disciples are all deceased, we now have another human being to take up their roles
Let's agree to disagree.
It's unfortunate that we couldn't come to a mutual understanding.
Thanks for the discussion though

NO... THE WORK OR MISSION DIDN'T END WHEN THE APOSTLES DIED. ...
The apostles could pass on the power given to them by laying hands on others..
Remember Jesus said mat 28: 20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you; and lo, I am with you always, to the close of the age.”

He said Till the end of the age.. and he and they knew that they would not be alive till the end of the age...


All Apostolic men had stewards who took their place upon dead.. Paul had Timothy,Titus, etc Peter had Mark, Clement, Cletus, Linus etc and they were also tasked with passing it on..
2 Tim 2:2 and what you have heard from me before many witnesses entrust to faithful men who will be able to teach others also.

like I said, the power is passed on by laying on of hands
2 tim 1:6 Hence I remind you to rekindle the gift of God that is within you through the laying on of MY HANDS; 7 for God did not give us a spirit of timidity but a spirit of power and love and self-control.
TAKE NOTE OF MY HANDS
1 Tim 4:14 Do not neglect the gift you have, which was given you by prophetic utterance when the elders laid their hands upon you

PAUL HIMSELF HAD HANDS LAID ON HIM BEFORE HE WENT ON HIS MISSIONARY JOURNEYS

Acts 13:2b “Set apart for me Barnabas and SAUL for the work to which I have called them.” 3 Then after fasting and praying THEY LAID THEIR HANDS on them and sent them off.

MZLady39:
Yes...if I offend someone knowingly or unknowingly, then I should go to them, apologize and ask for forgiveness (James 5:16).
The bigger issue would be to figure out why I would keep committing the same sins repeatedly? Anger issues, envy issues, unforgiveness issues, deception issues, gluttony, theft issues, sexual issues etc.
Now who has the power to give me victory in those areas?
Am I gonna confess to Peter each time....who can't give me victory over them.
All he's doing is listening and making me feel good for the moment...then I keep repeating the cycle.
If I commit adultery (if I were married), then guess who should be involved in my confession?
My (future husband) & God!
Peter (who as much as I truly loved reading about that disciple & hope to meet him and King David in the kingdom one day), has nothing to do with listening to or retaining a confession from me to him about my personal & private sin.
That wouldn't be any of his business...neither would he be able to do anything for me but point me to the Lord who does this...(1 John 1:9) for ALL of my sins....if I'm willing to give them to Him.
Ok....brother. But if you believe differently then....

Maybe you don't know this, but people came confessing their sins to the apostles and the crowd... (Acts 19:18)

James 5:16 Therefore confess your sins to one another, and pray for one another, that you may be healed..

it says ONE ANOTHER.. NOT JUST THE OFFENDED PARTY OR "YOUR HUSBAND" ALONE.. AND "PRAY" FOR ONE ANOTHER...

you seem to think forgiveness was the only power they were given.. they were also given power to retain sins..

the Lord's prayer says forgive us as we forgive others..

Do you think everyone has the right TO RETAIN SINS??

IF EVERYONE DOES, DO YOU THINK GOD WILL HOLD IT AGAINST THEM..

MZLady39:
Yes...if I offend someone knowingly or unknowingly, then I should go to them, apologize and ask for forgiveness (James 5:16).
If I commit adultery (if I were married), then guess who should be involved in my confession?
My (future husband) & God!
Peter (who as much as I truly loved reading about that disciple & hope to meet him and King David in the kingdom one day), has nothing to do with listening to or retaining a confession from me to him about my personal & private sin.
That wouldn't be any of his business...neither would he be able to do anything for me but point me to the Lord who does this...(1 John 1:9)
Ok....brother. But if you believe differently then....

Quoting out of context.. Jesus was speaking specifically to his apostles.. not everyone of us...

secondly the Lord's prayer covers the forgive us as we forgive others part...

JESUS WAS MAKING A SEPARATE DECLARATION FROM FORGIVING EACH OTHER, THE CONTEXT IS DIFFERENT..

John 20:21 Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, even so I send you.” 22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit.
this is what preceded the declaration..

Jesus gave his disciples power to do many things, Teach, baptize (mat 28:15-20), preach, baptize, cast out demons, heal (mark 16: 15-18) and to FORGIVE SINS (john 20:23) before he ascended and they did all of that... NO EXCEPTIONS

someone once said that it means they can only DECLARE SOMEONE FORGIVEN, but can't actually forgive sin that my Bible translation had a problem... but all Bible valid Bible translations use "IF YOU FORGIVE/REMIT" NOT "DECLARE FORGIVEN"

New International Version
If you forgive anyone's sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
New Living Translation
If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven. If you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven."
English Standard Version
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you withhold forgiveness from any, it is withheld.”
Berean Study Bible
If you forgive anyone his sins, they are forgiven; if you withhold forgiveness from anyone, it is withheld."
Berean Literal Bible
If you might forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you might retain any, they are retained."
New American Standard Bible
"If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained."
King James Bible
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted unto them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Holman Christian Standard Bible
If you forgive the sins of any, they are forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they are retained."
International Standard Version
If you forgive people's sins, they are forgiven. If you retain people's sins, they are retained."
NET Bible
If you forgive anyone's sins, they are forgiven; if you retain anyone's sins, they are retained."
New Heart English Bible
Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
Aramaic Bible in Plain English
“If you will forgive a man's sins, they will be forgiven him, and if you hold a man's, they will be held.”
GOD'S WORD® Translation
Whenever you forgive sins, they are forgiven. Whenever you don't forgive them, they are not forgiven."
New American Standard 1977
“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”
Jubilee Bible 2000
unto those whose sins ye release, they shall be released; and unto those whose sins ye retain, they shall be retained.
King James 2000 Bible
Whosoever's sins you remit, they are remitted unto them; and whosoever's sins you retain, they are retained.
American King James Version
Whose soever sins you remit, they are remitted to them; and whose soever sins you retain, they are retained.
American Standard Version
whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever'sins ye retain, they are retained.
Douay-Rheims Bible
Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained.
Darby Bible Translation
whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; whose soever [sins] ye retain, they are retained.
English Revised Version
whose soever sins ye forgive, they are forgiven unto them; whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Webster's Bible Translation
Whose soever sins ye remit, they are remitted to them; and whose soever sins ye retain, they are retained.
Weymouth New Testament
If you remit the sins of any persons, they remain remitted to them. If you bind fast the sins of any, they remain bound."
World English Bible
Whoever's sins you forgive, they are forgiven them. Whoever's sins you retain, they have been retained."
Young's Literal Translation
if of any ye may loose the sins, they are loosed to them; if of any ye may retain, they have been retained.'

http://biblehub.com/john/20-23.htm

MZLady39:
Brotherrrrr......
Nope...I don't accept that.
So that means 1 of us is wrong

John 20:23 is pretty clear.. With Jesus Christ speaking directly to his disciples, there's no parable, no hyperbole, no metaphor, no big statements...

IT IS JESUS 'S WORDS SO IF YOU DON'T BELIEVE IT, YOU DON'T BELIEVE WHAT JESUS DECLARED... AND THE WORD OF GOD DOES NOT RETURN TO GOD WITHOUT ACHIEVING IT'S PURPOSE...
THEREFORE, IF JESUS SAYS THEY CAN FORGIVE OR RETAIN SINS, THEN THEY CAN PERIOD...

MZLady39:
Ok...
Peter was both an Apostle & Evangelist (Acts 2:14-40). So Peter had responsibilities pertaining to the administration of the church/people...but not regarding forgiveness of sins.
The particular verse speaking about the "rock" that the church would be built upon refers to Jesus Christ....not Peter (Matthew 16:18).
If Christ had to identify the spirit behind Peter's rebuke of Jesus' mission, (Matthew 16: 22, 23), then that signifies that Peter was fallible and thereby has to obtain forgiveness from Christ just as every other human being
(1 John 1:9).
So "no" Peter would have no authority to forgive or retain Mary Magdalene's sin. She would need to go to her Savior and confess her sins and ask for forgiveness.

1.. Indeed but Peter also had a separate role to nurture (feed) Christ's sheep and lamb which included the other apostles (john 21:15-18) and was tasked with strengthening his brethren (22:31-32)... Both Roles given to him alone by Christ himself..

2... The power to forgive and retain sins was given by Christ to the apostles not just Peter so anyone of the apostles could forgive Mary Magdalene's sins or anyone else's.. They can do this through Christ with the power he gave them in John 20:21-23

3 The power to Forgive of Sin has nothing to do with Matt 16:18...
And Peter was the rock Christ was talking about to specify Peter's role in his church.. Peter's name was changed from Simon bar Jonah to Kepha in Aramaic and petros when translated into Greek which means rock, (see John 1:42) and in biblical language a name change normally manifests something (as in the case of Abram - Abraham, Sarai - Sarah and Jacob - Israel..

4 Again Fallibility has nothing to do with The Power to forgive sin and like I pointed out, this power was given to all the apostles not just Peter (john 20:23).. Jesus rebuked Peter a long time before He gave them the power to forgive sin.. So Jesus could have purified him and made him and all other apostles who ran away and abandoned Jesus on the cross worthy before he gave them that power.. Besides before then, they had not received the Holy Spirit and like Jesus told them, "receive the Holy Spirit" before he made the declaration that they could forgive or retain sins... REMEMBER THAT THE POWER TO FORGIVE SIN IN HIS NAME (john 20:23) WAS GIVEN AFTER THE RESURRECTION..
On the issue of the man who slept with his step mother at the church in Corinth, Paul says this in 2 cor 2:10 Any one whom you forgive, I also forgive. What I have forgiven, if I have forgiven anything, has been for your sake in the presence of Christ,
In Mathew 9 when Jesus healed the paraletic.. He did it to prove that he had the authority to forgive sins..
In Mat 9:8 it says "When the crowds saw it, they were afraid, and they glorified God, who had given such authority to men".
TAKE NOTE IT'S SAYS TO MEN, NOT JUST TO THIS MAN (JESUS CHRIST)

Confessing our sins to God is fine.. But the Bible also enjoins us to confess our sins to one another and pray for one another so that we can healed.. IT ALSO SAYS THE PRAYER AND ANOINTING WITH OIL BY THE ELDERS OF WHICH PETER IS (1 Peter 5:1, James 5:15).. WILL BRING HEALING AND FORGIVENESS

Splinz:
Apart from the fact that you lot are only experts in butchering the truths, as a result of terribly misunderstanding these truths, lack of comprehension skills also posed a serious problem.

Like I've been saying, enjoy your spree of ignorance.

Again you blame it on comprehension ... you say we butcher truth.. I say what gives you the authority to be the "expert" who decides who is right... you say we are ignorant .. I say if in your own ignorance you feel that way.. then enjoy too

Splinz:
Have you been able to prove it otherwise?

Go and read earlier comments... the people killed (martyrs) whether in the past ( in the persecution of the early church in Rome and Jerusalem) or middle ages or will be in the future are not symbolic, neither is their cry for vengeance.. point is a dead unconscious soul with the body in the grave cannot cryout for vengeance... you can't be conscious and unconscious at the same time.. ITS THE SIMPLE PRINCIPLE OF NON CONTRADICTION

besides there are many more verses that contradict your heretic theory and many other Christian groups reject it

Splinz:
Go and learn what the bold means. I wouldn't be the one to teach you English too.

Fact still remains that you said Rev 6:9 is symbolic.. All others don't take away from that...

So don't use English to escape it.

Splinz:
Good question.

That brother and his fellow travelers has been making lots of inventions all in my name, confidently peddling lies and assertions which exist only in their head.

Of course, I am not bothered at all. I mean, "inventions" has always been their stocks in trade.

Inventions, lies.. LOL.. what makes you think you are worth such attention..

Splinz:
Good question.

That brother and his fellow travelers has been making lots of inventions all in my name, confidently peddling lies and assertions which exist only in their head.

Of course, I am not bothered at all. I mean, "inventions" has always been their stocks in trade.

He said almost all... especially pertaining to rev 6:9... of which is the bone of contention

MZLady39:
Brother,
The gospel is simplistic. The Holy Spirit reveals through His word.
Yes...I will gladly take yours first....not gonna read tons of pages though. I can't lie like that.
I have to leave now. Will be back sometime in the late evening...Nigeria's time....
Take care

You too

MZLady39:
Brother,
I'm not against the Catholic Church...some of my family members are members.
Some of its teachings, however, go directly against the teaching of God's Word.
We just want to study the Word and see how we need to line up our lives with it...that's all.
I have no authority or superiority over you or anyone else.
But if we are in error, then we need to know how to correct it

No Catholic doctrine directly goes against scripture if you understand it properly..
alot of people don't know that there is a difference between a doctrine, a Tradition and a tradition...
if you read what the Catholic Church actually means...
An example is we say we don't worship idols.. people like Splinz say we do.. and he forces it on us...
like I said to him... let God who sees our hearts judge us.. if we all judge people by what we see or what we think they do. everyone will be condemned..

MZLady39:
Well brother,
We aren't gonna debate. That's not my style.
Did he say "all" or some? See I can't speak on what I haven't read from him. I'm speaking on what I have read....a little from this thread and much more from him on other threads.
He was probably saying that there is lots of symbolism throughout the Book of Revelation...and he is right.
What you did however, was pick 2-3 scriptures, which I'm very familiar with, that actually have a literal meaning.
Those particular souls were real martyrs...people who died for their allegiance to Christ. Now the actual "soul" itself wasn't crying out cause the "dead know nothing" 1 Thessalonians 4:16, Ecclesiastes 9:5...& more scriptures.
However, God was saying that He hasn't forgotten those of His children who were viciously slain for His sake.
And there will be a group in these last days that will also meet the same death.
I've got some info on decoding the Book of Revelation...if you're willing to read it.
I would have to get it for you much later today...but I can do it...only if you want it though.

the talk on soul sleep has been discoursed already... Hebrews 12:1, 24, 1 Peter 3:21, The mountain of transfiguration, even the verses of revelation point to the activity and consciousness of souls even though the body is dead in the grave...

and REV 6:9 IS NOT A MONOLOGUE BETWEEN GOD AND HIMSELF... IT CLEARLY IS A DIALOGUE... THE SOULS CRY AND GOD COMFORTS THEM... SO YOUR POINTS ARE INSUFFICIENT..

I HAVE commentaries on revelation too I would take yours if you would take mine...
the problem is authority... the person who wrote your "decoding" revelation, what authority does he or she have? mine comes from a compilation of over 1500 years of theological opinions and compilations of the early church and the church through the ages...

MZLady39:
My brother,
I understand what you are saying.
However, all ways aren't right...which has caused all this confusion. It was never supposed to be like this.
The only way I know is to sincerely pray for the Holy Spirit to reveal all truth...and He will. I have attended many different denominations (including the Catholic church) and they all have some doctrine correct.
All I know is that Christ will have a church in these last days...that will be on one accord.

I agree with you on your first points.. But the Bible itself gives credence to the church... As the pillar and bulwark of truth

1 Tim 3:15 if I am delayed, you may know how one ought to behave in the household of God, WHICH is the CHURCH of the living God, the PILLAR and BULWARK of the TRUTH.

and when John said about the authority of the apostles as teachers, who founded the church and by that the Church itself in

1 john 4:6We are of God. Whoever knows God listens to us, and he who is not of God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

Jesus himself says to his disciples

Luke 10:16 “He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me.”

I KNOW YOU DON'T THINK THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS RIGHT.. BUT GO TO THOSE WHO LEARNED FROM THE APOSTLES DIRECTLY, THEY COULD NOT HAVE LEARNED ERRORS AND TAUGHT ERRORS.. READ THE EARLY CHURCH WRITINGS.. IGNATIUS OF ANTIOCH WAS A STUDENT OF JOHN, CLEMENT OF ROME WAS MENTIONED AS A COWORKER BY PAUL (Phil 4:3), READ THEIR WORKS AND COMPARE THEIR BELIEFS WITH WHAT YOU HAVE TODAY AND SEE WHO HAS THE CONTINUITY

JOHN IN THE VERSE I JUST PRESENTED SAYS US..

What splinz said was that the book of revelation is all symbolic so it doesn't mean what we say it does.. and you say he is correct because he used scripture correctly and we apparently did not...

here are some questions from that
1.. Rev 6:9 When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain for the word of God and for the witness they had borne; 10 they cried out with a loud voice, “O Sovereign Lord, holy and true, how long before thou wilt judge and avenge our blood on those who dwell upon the earth?” 11 Then they were each given a white robe and told to rest a little longer, until the number of their fellow servants and their brethren should be complete, who were to be killed as they themselves had been.

ARE THESE SOULS SYMBOLIC SOULS, WHERE THEY SYMBOLICALLY KILLED, ARE THEY CRYING FOR A SYMBOLIC VENGEANCE, WERE THEIR PERSECUTORS SYMBOLICALLY ON EARTH...

2... rev 5: 8 And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and with golden BOWLS FULL of INCENSE, WHICH ARE THE PRAYERS of the SAINTS;

I AND ANY OTHER REASONABLE PERSON WOULD SAY THAT THE SYMBOLIC INCENSE HAS BEEN CLARIFIED TO MEAN PRAYERS OF THE SAINTS...

IF YOU THINK THERE'S STILL SYMBOLISM THERE THEN TELL US WHICH...

3... Rev 4:8 And the four living creatures, each of them with six wings, are full of eyes all round and within, and day and night they never cease to sing,

“holy, holy, holy, is the Lord God Almighty,
who was and is and is to come!”

ARE THE ANGELIC BEINGS SYMBOLIC? IS THE HOLY HOLY HOLY THEY ARE SAYING SYMBOLIC..

if you still think he is correct, then there's nothing more I can say to you

MZLady39:
Brother,
I was trying to gracefully move out of this thread...but you just won't allow that now will you?
I am not from his camp. I don't know what his camp is. So many little cliques in the Religion S..
I do know that he has used scripture correctly for a lot of his discussions and I was acknowledging that. He may hold some of my beliefs also. He & I have never discussed our denominations. It was all the Word.
I have not agreed with him on 1 item (and he knows what that is)...and I haven't studied that item...so I'm not sure who's correct.
You are correct. I am NOT the authority...
God's Word is....led by the Holy Spirit into all knowledge and wisdom.
The problem lies in all of these multiple interpretations...
Now I'm 100 % sure God never intended for all this confusion. So now....someone's right & someone's wrong. We all need to know truth & follow it & be on one accord.
Now I'm gonna encourage him....and when/if there's a disagreement on some particular point, then we (like adults) can discuss it and hopefully come to an agreement

You said he used scripture correctly and I assume by that statement that we didn't.. who gave you that authority to say who uses scripture correctly.. Since according to general protestants/pentecostals everyone has the right to read scripture and be directed by the Holy Spirit..

MZLady39:
No problem baby brother! I love encouraging folks....especially when I see they are correct.
What I meant by "delivery" was how you can "cut folks" with your tongue....not "what" you say....but "how" you say it. You remember from way back in February (with your "brothers"...
You know my brother that if I disagree with you, I'll tell you.
But let me get off these nice brothers' conversations.

Sorry brother for the slight derailment.
CC: LogicStatement

So there are cases where you disagree with him.. in those cases is he still correct? or are you correct?
because in this case since he agrees with you he is "CORRECT". If he is not correct when he doesn't agree with you that makes you The Authority who decides what is "CORRECT"..
QUESTION AGAIN IS... WHO GAVE YOU THAT AUTHORITY

whenever the Catholic argues from scripture, you say he or she is twisting scripture just because you don't agree with it.. yet you believe that everyone has the right to read and interpret scripture for themselves.. EXCEPT FOR THE CATHOLICS..

Finally.. the fact that a person from your camp says you are correct doesn't make you correct... because you are not the ultimate authority on truth... neither is she... you say the word is... but we presented our arguments from the WORD and you say we twisted it.. that only means that YOU DECIDE WHICH "WORD" IS TRUE MAKING YOU THE ULTIMATE AUTHORITY...

QUESTION IS WHO GAVE YOU THAT AUTHORITY??

kabasa77:
Oh please... Educated my foot

LOL.. Religious pride... We have told you what we really believe, if you don't agree then that's your problem.. it's been the truth since the early church, Christians who suffered persecution in Rome and other places also asked the Saints and the faithful departed for their prayers... just google the catacombs

like I have said earlier.. you are not our judge.. let God who sees our hearts and knows that we worship him only judge us

kabasa77:
Stop jumping into assumptions, the Bible was not clear on how the got the prayers, but then never said the elders were intercessors so you have no point here.. The bible only said the had bowls containing the prayers of Saints. The Bible is not clear about alot of things

what does offering prayers to God on behalf of someone means... it is INTERCESSION
the only way they could get those prayers, is if they are directed towards them... unless YOU THINK THEY CAN INTERCEPT PRAYERS DIRECTED TOWARDS GOD..

kabasa77:
I have answered you time without number. You are just being annoying.. Christains here on EARTH can pray for a fellow Christian to God forgiveness, as stated in the passages you quoted, but it is entirely wrong when you pray to Saints in Heaven to pray on your behalf when the Bible is clear that that's the sole duty of Jesus as our one and only mediator who is sitted at the right hand of the father making intercessions for us.. How is that so hard for you to assimilate and comprehend?

again you didn't answer the question.. how did the Elder's in heaven get the prayers they were offering.. don't go around it on blame it on comprehension...

let me help you with fill in the gap..

The elders IN HEAVEN got the prayers they were offering to God by........................................

kabasa77:
Don't be silly Mr... You are the ones who are idol worshippers, worshiping the Queen of Heaven, where in your Bible was your Mary crowned the Queen of Heaven, and what of your silly immaculate birth of Mary?

The Bible have said it, we have only one mediator and intercessor, Jesus, you can pray for your brother here on earth, but you don't pray to those already in heaven to help you, when Jesus is there.. Continue in your folly

For the millionth time.. we don't worship Mary, we give her honor deserving of being Mother of Jesus Christ who is GOD MADE FLESH.. we don't honor Mary because she is a God, but we give her honor because of Jesus...

As for Queen of Heaven.. We don't need to believe that to be saved.. but again that is not because she is a god.. but because of Jesus Christ..
JESUS IS THE KING OF HEAVEN AND EARTH... THE MOTHER OF A KING IS A QUEEN.. THE QUEEN OF THE KINGDOM WHERE HER SON REIGNS
THEREFORE BY DEDUCTION.. MARY IS QUEEN BECAUSE HER SON IS KING

This is a biblical principle which is found in 1 kings 2:19 So bathshe′ba went to King Solomon, to speak to him on behalf of Adoni′jah. And the king rose to meet her, and bowed down to her; then he sat on his throne, and had a seat brought for the king’s mother; and she sat on his right.

and from thence, in the line of David, the role of Queen mother was established

It is not necessarily an essential of salvation.. but a theological opinion

kabasa77:
Don't mention me again..

you still have not answered the question there in

Splinz:
You see! Am I surprise? No. Enjoy your spree of ignorance.

Revelation is not all symbolic, that is a fact, if in your ignorance, you think I am ignorant, then you enjoy your ignorance too.. like I said, God is the judge, not you...

kabasa77:
Please these two Catholic fellows stop quoting me.. I have made myself clear, the choice is yours

no you have not.... I ask again, how did the Elders in heaven with the angels get the prayers they are offering to God if Jesus is the only one to offer prayers to God in heaven...

and from your earlier comments you believe Mary and the apostles should be in heaven so by that statement you disagree with splinz heretical soul sleep view that the dead in Christ are unconscious in the grave

Splinz:
Silly assumptions. Who is even Ellen Gourd?

I might be presumptuous.. in assuming that you are a seventh day Adventist.. because all your thinking fits their theology..

You didn't prove that rev 6:9 is symbolic.... it is not, there are no symbolic martyrs, there is not symbolic vengeance, there is no symbolic people on earth to get vengeance on

Splinz:
Unfortunately? You have nothing to say my dear. I'm not looking out for man's agreement but that of the Word. He agrees with His word that His saints are awaiting their CHANGE at His appearing.

Not like someone who feels he must also bow down and worship one dumb idol in the name of Mary, simply because others pray with the bible.

I don't feel I must bow down in the name of Mary, that's just your misrepresentations of what Catholics do...
Every Tom, dick and Harry with a Bible nowadays feels he has authority to teach and condemn others, Your founder Ellen Gourd White had no authority, therefore you don't, let God who sees the heart judge us.. not you

Splinz:
Go and sharpen your comprehension skills. I can't believe you're this dull.

Every time someone proves you wrong you blame it on the person's comprehension skills, I assume you are a know it all with all the ability of comprehension and others have little or non...
indeed the book of revelation has a symbolic dimension, it doesn't mean everything in the book of revelation is symbolic..

kabasa77:
Comprehension is your problem, The Bible said the 24 elders had a bowl containing the prayers of the Saints, prayers the Saints made by themselves, they only brought it to God's presence, this different from when a person interceeds for another. They 24 elders only brought the prayers to God.. Men, you are impossible really..

I believe you are the one with comprehension problems.. how did this prayers get to them to present to God if Jesus is the only one that can present our petitions to God?