₦airaland Forum

darfay:
Yes that's were I'm from, I'm fully aware of the deep relationship both communities continue to share even though there are some element who are trying to rewrite that part of our history by opting for a more fashionable migration from Benin but the evidence is not really in their favour. I also believe the migration would have happened after olomu was established as an urhobo community if not we would have retained some element of both languages in our dialect, their is also a possibility of acculturation, I find it odd that neighboring communities like enwhe with a supposed igbo migration has a dialect more closer to urhobo than ours that actually migrated from that axis, infact "come" in enwhe is "Yare" and not Nyanze


I'm vaguely aware of kiagbodo, is it close to olomu?I knew they were are bilingual ijaw people. Plus one of the satellite communities/villages of olomoro is ikiagbodo. I think colonization might have put an end to an outward(west/east) migration of urhobo (of ughelli) and isoko people as evidenced by bilingual communities like kiagbodo and some ndokwa clans ibedeni ,ashaka and Ase that are bilingual

Our ancestors kept records in their own way albeit inefficient, they told folklores which in itself Forms the bulk of what we know about our past. I partially followed that argument on ogie/oba debate, very informative tbh. I once came across a scholarly report that postulated that edoid people migrated from edo North. I don't know how factual it is but of the edoid languages north of sapele, I hear Esan is the most intelligible with ours.

The Benin migration story is more palatable, reason for it's widespread. Recently, some Urhobos are trying to establish a non-existent link with Ife. I don't know why few Okpe historian would say Okpe ancestors migrated from Ile-Ife when we can easily trace their origins to Olomu. Infact Okpe quarters in Olomu is still standing till this very day.

I agree with you that the Ijaws came after Olomu has been established as an Urhobo community. Or maybe our Urhobo ancestors colonized several neighbouring Ijaw communities to form what is today the larger Olomu kingdom.

Also, I believe Olomu is one of the oldest Urhobo enclave. There is a lot we need to dig about the origins of the Urhobo/Isoko. I know the core is somewhere in Edo, but the recent Benin migration stories look so "falsetified." The Urhobo/Isoko ancestors left their initial terrain atleast 800years before anything Benin was formed. A lot of internal migration happened between Urhobo and Isoko, so trying to pin our whole existence on Benin is a joke taken too far.

@Bolded, are you sure there is a satellite community in Olomoro called Ikiagbodo? If true, we can't really dismiss the strong link between Urhobo/Isoko and Ijaw. The Olomu rulling house still make references to Ijaw till this very day. Our ancestors really did push their boundaries. Look at how they penetrated Ndokwa and western Ijaw terrains. And yes, Kiagbodo shares border with Urhobo.

I don't really subscribe to the Edo North migration history mostly because some of the groups in the zone are too recent to birth our ancestors. I believe that the ancestors of Urhobo/Isoko, Esan and Bini lived together as one in a republican society before the great migration.

Prof Ekeh did lots of research on Urhobo as a proto-edoid group. He was one of the few Urhobo historian who never subscribed entirely to the Bini migratory story.

darfay:
I always thought they were primarily of Benin origin. My community in isoko migrated from that axis, In fact the chief deity of the community was/is ogwha- olomu or something like that.
This might mean that the ijaw components might either have been long assimilated before the migration or were later migrant as both element should have been retained in our dialect at least fractionally. We can't really know our African history with certainty sha

Are you by any chance from Olomoro? Olomoro is a direct descendants from Olomu and till date they maintain a healthy relationship. The Ohworode is always present in every event and vise versa.

The Ijaws were mainly riverine people. I believe they met few Urhobo speaking people and over the years lost touch of their mother tongue. The Olomoro migration happened decades after Olomu has been established and the Urhobo dialects well spoken. Agbon and Okpe had ancestors from Olomu as well.

Kiagbodo, another Ijaw enclave almost fell to Urhobo. It took the conscious effort of several Ijaw bodies to revive the fading Ijaw influences in modern times.

The ruling house in Olomu is directly Ijaw reason for the OGONI title.

While the core of the Urhobo people is Edo, the Urhobos had ancestors from other Groups mostly Ijaws who we bordered on almost all front.

We barely have any recorded history, so it is really hard to trace our roots. Was having this debate days back about the Oba and Ogie title. If our ancestors had atleast kept some records, we won't even debate somethings.

Maazieze:
Also why are their 24 kingdoms? From what ive read most "monarchs" these didnt exist prior to colonialism and the imposition of "warrant chiefs", its more likely these fragmented kingdoms your reffering to are the various clans of the urhobo, and the precolonial polities of urhobo was stable and united, or part of the edo empire( ofcourse ik their were nobles that ruled the land in the oba's stead)

Just like the Igbos, the Urhobos were republican. During precolonial times, there was never any Urhobo clan that was under the rulership of an external government. Urhobo clans were fiercely independent and maintained autonomouship.

Although they were mostly republican, some Urhobo kingdoms were already in existence long before the formation of the Bini Empire. Ughelli kingdom for example existed long before Oba Eweka established a new kingdom.

Modern day Urhobo Kingdoms represent their clans and each with their origins. Olomu Kingdom for example is blend of Urhobo and Ijaw. The ancestors who formed the kingdom were Ijaw who blended with the Urhobo aboriginals.

I've highlighted some keys points from UGBE634, AreaFada2 and samuk. Edeyoung, I saw your mention and I will try to answer below.

Benin society evolved over centuries, Areafada2 talked about the ancient elders or edions who came together to elect one amongst them, Benin went through a series of evolution to become the structured and organised society the Europeans met in 1400s.

There were no other well structured society in this part of Nigeria. Even the name Edo have it's own history.

During the evolution of Benin various group left Benin at various periods taking with them what was on ground at that time, this is why the Urhobo still referred to Benin as AKKA people because this was the name Benin was known by when they left. They also took with them the traditional institution that was on ground with them. So it's not surprising if they cannot relate with the later name Edo, because Edo came later, during the reign of Oba Ewuare 1.

The Urhobo have already left at this this time. It will seem that the Urhobo were not around when the name Omo no' ba ne' Edo involved.

I would add that the other Edoid tribes did not borrow the word Ogie which seem to appear as Ojie and Ovie in Esan and Urhobo respectively, still means king. And because they seem not to have experienced a centralized monarchy, , the duke system is certainly alien to them.

Ogisos did not start out as outright kings even. There were senior elders among elders of Benin quarters. Each Quarter produced an elder who will become next leader when the previous dies.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholor ancestors where among the elders when their head a brilliant idea to make himself king. The other 4 chiefs/elders, after intense negotiations, agreed but one one condition. That they should be permanent chiefs with near equal power to the king. They all agreed (swore at Erimwindu/shrine all Benin ancestors) that the king must ensure their sons inherit their titles and they must ensure the king's son or chosen heir inherits kingship. These elders laboured hard to wrestle control of Benin from Evian descendants and restore monarchy after Ogiso Owodo. They were fulfilling ancestral oath and also safeguarding their positions, since only a Ogiso direct blood descendant would be under oath to ensure the elders retain their position perpetually.

First of all, we all can agree that there was a major divergence amongst the Edoid group. Most groups left during the Ogiso Dynasty (Igodomigodo) and at that time, the current Empire wasn't formed.

Before their departure, The Ogie title was prominent and it didn't by anyway mean Chief/Duke as some would want us to believe. The Urhobos/Isokos who were the largest stock to leave had records of her relationship with Aka and even marked her territories as we can see in Abraka which means a border with Aka.

Before the establishment of the Oba dynasty by Oba Eweka I, most Edoid groups who migrated to various areas were already established, forging with their separate identity except for recent migrators like Iwere who later adopted a Bini Prince.

Wether or not Oba was used during the Ogiso era is still very debatable and inputs from those against and for the argument are valid. I've noted some valid corrections myself and I've also gained some insights.

Thebadpolitican:
This is were you get it wrong

As a benin man I am telling you

Ogie means Duke

Are the benin not the originator of the word that was later corrupted to Ovie and the other related names by other non benin sub group


The right word is not even ogie for Duke it is called enogie. Ogie means royalty, enogie meaning a royal servant which is known as Duke

The other non benin sees ogie as Duke which is understanding because they are not the originator of the word the word originally is a benin word, the Oba doesn't appoint kings in territores he apoints subordinate which can be liking to as governor

Your explanation is wack just look like you're saying the president should be called a governor because we have 35 state bearing the title governor, then the president should also be called a governor


Is there any other political head in Nigeria that bears President


I showed you a screeshot from Edo north which is not benin but has the word oba as a name

Again the world governor and president do they sound similar so to your own analogy the world president is alien since its not related the word governor that has 35 state governor bearing it as title

The British monarchy
The head is called king
And the chiefs are called = dukes

Is that enough explanation maybe you're just pulling my legs who knows

Maybe we are saying two different thing.

I'm discussing the use of Ogie, you are talk about Enogie. Enogie has very limited usage compared to Ogie.

Enogies is not equal to Ogies.

davidnazee:
Ogie may mean ruler not necessarily King. In all of Edo south no ruler goes by the title Ogie, it's Enogie and their powers/functions are limited to being Dukes.
Outside of Edo south like Delta Ogie may mean King but in Edo south it has a different meaning and function. Oba is king here and Ogie/Enogie are dukes.

I believe the Enogies in Edo North are enthroned by the Oba. Also most of these territories are still very much under the control of the Obaship so no possible way an Ogie title can stand. But outside these zones, there exist independent sub-Edoid group who use Og(v)ie title and it would be a great dishonesty to say the title doesn't exist or it means different thing other than King.

Aside Og(v)ie, most Ovies have their own appellations eg. Orosuen of Okere, Orodje of Okpe etc. But Ogie is still the key word for king in all Edoid languages.

UGBE634:
I think I have seen something close, it is just like the Olu in some years will now say that Edo got the Ogie title from Itsekiri when the etymology is clearly in Edo

They pieced together Yoruba and EDO titles and even you as a stranger can easily tell what part falls into Edo and what part falls into Yoruba.

Ogie-Ame, Iyasere, Ologbosere... these are titles any Edo subgroup can easily relate with.

AreaFada2:
What was the rank or title of Awujale of Ijebu and Olowo of Owo, the major places in Yorubaland people migrated from to Iwerre? [b]The problem remains that people sill think only a large tribe can give culture to a smaller tribe as they are seen today. [/b]Yorubas were not one until just 200 years ago. Owo man could not communicate with Oyo man. So they had different names for kings. Only standardised Oyo Yoruba that most now speak brought "unity" of tongue. I have a dialect that is around 90% similar to Iwerre one. So I am not one to be told about it. Even closer to Usen.

The reason Benin influence in Eastern Yorubaland was so big is that Eastern Yorubas saw other Yorubas as totally different. So they readily accepted influential Benin by and large, of course waxing and wanning.

These things are not just "mere common sense" stuff but of scholarship.

Efe, I will not re-explain Oba meaning in Benin. I did many times before. Read through old posts if you want to know. To claim deeper root of Oba in Benin means you do not know Benin in any depth.

I can tell you of at least 20 places that didn't use Oba title 110 to 50 years ago but now use Oba praise

Benin language I heard growing up is different from now. Never mind how people who left Benin 600 to 700 years ago would have dropped some words and retained others. Some words in my dialect in Edo sound archaic or even unknown in Eastern Yorubaland today. Those in their 80s and 90s over there understand virtually every world. Meaning those words may still been used when they were growing up but obsolete now. It doesn't mean they didn't exist centuries ago there. Difference is while theirs was affected a lot by Oyo dialect over last 150 years, ours was not.

I wite all these epistles because of silent people reading them and for posterity.

Bro, I'm not one that think only a large tribe can influence smaller tribes.

Efewestern:
I may be wrong but the name Eze-Igbe is purely edoid. It has no single root in Igbo. EzeIgbe means Sacrificial Dance.

This was my post some months ago when someone was trying to Igbonize Ezeigbe. Several times I've defended our Edoid roots.

Aside Oba, I still believe there are titles that have creeped into the Urhobo language that deep down I know it has no firm root in Edoid. I've always questioned the root of Olorogun.

With my little knowledge in the Urhobo language, I can piece together some Edo words. As much we are far apart, we share similar terminologies. So most times I base my judgement on that.

No vex say I they shook mouth for this Bini/Ife tussle 😂😂

AreaFada2:
Okoro is not lost in Benin o. Every Prince of Benin is called Okoro. You probably have to know more to be sure of these things first.

Crown Prince is Okoro n'Okhua. Okoro meant boy child initially but became Prince. I explained Okoro matter years ago here about how Oba Erediauwa was a student at Government College Ibadan, like 80 years ago. The chat between him and his British teacher. I believe I was replying to your post back then. I know at least 12 families with Okoro surname in Benin.
I still put it to you to show me any evidence of Olu of Warri using Oba title from 1800s. Remember, the Portuguese also documented Olu of Itsekhiri quite well. Show me Oba title in it.

I can tell you at least 20 Yoruba kings that never used Oba title until 100 years ago. Olubadan is one of them. Many were still "Baale". Not even yet king in status. Do you know how many Obas have been created or those elevated as Oba in last 50 years alone in Yorubaland? They all now have Oba title and praise name. It does not take long to be rooted. Just replace "Baale" in proverbs and songs with Oba.

Yes, power of Oba was important before 1897 because rulers in sphere of Benin influence could not just take Oba title like that. I have shown that even Yoruba rulers under Benin influence didn't even use Oba title. One cannot just wake up and use Awujale as a royal title. It is unique. Oba was unique to Edo. While it existed in Yoruba as "King" as some point, it never was individual appellation of a king. In a Western Region Traditional Rulers meeting in Benin in the 1940s, the register of attendees uniquely bore Oba of Benin as only Oba. Others were Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, etc. He was present but nothing like Oba Adesoji Aderemi was written. It was Ooni of Ife. Today, it would not be complete without writing The Ooni of Ife, Oba Adeyeye Ogunwusi.

Titles like Ojomo, Sagwe, Ero, Owangwe, Osere, Bajuaye and Sasere used in parts of Yorubaland now were adopted from Benin's Ezomo. Osague, Ero, Esere, Bazuaye and Iyase. You have them now in Ilesa and most of Eastern Yorubaland. In 100 years, people will swear that they are not from Benin. Even 50 years from now, people will not admit that the titles came from Benin. Others will argue that because they are so widespread in Yorubaland, it must have existed in Yorubaland long before coming to Benin.

But each title has unique story behind it in Benin.

Oliha, Edohen, Ero and Eholo were titles in Benin by 40BC already. Do you have all these titles in all Edoid Delta Aristocracy? You don't believe that some words and positions disappear if not used in separated languages? I know Iyase title exists in many Delta Edoid people but it is fairly young. Iyase was created in about 1255 AD by Oba Ewedo of Benin. The former 4 are way older. Being old doesn't mean all separated languages must have it.

The Benin/Edo Language I used to hear people speak growing up is different from the one I hear now. Never mind after 600 to 700 years of separation from Benin.

Before Oba Olua sent his son to Iwerre in 1480, there was no high-ranking ruler there. How can Oba already documented by Europeans then become less rooted in Benin than in Iwerre?

I write my epistles because of silent readers and posterity.

Ooni, Awujale, Alake, Alafin, Olubadan, Oluwo, Olu, etc are not the yoruboid word for king, they are title of each sovereign rulers. I can't give a breakdown of these titles but I'm very sure they mean different thing.

The closest the Yorubas have to Oba is "Baale," which by the way is a low ranking title for a tiny community heads.

It is an established fact that Ogie is an Edoid word for King. Regardless of what some are trying to spin, Ogie means king and not Duke. Now, in Yoruboid, aside Oba, there is no other Yoruba word for King. Olu isn't king. Olu means Lord. Ooni , Alaffin are titles. Baale isn't also close. This leaves us with only OBA, unless you want to convince me that Yoruboid had no word for king.

Also, it makes no sense for Edoid to call King Ogie and Oba. Either one is foreign or the other just mean a different thing entirely.

Now, let's look at History.

When the Bini prince arrived Itsekiri, he met riverine Yoruba dwellers and united them. After the kingdom was established, several Bini aristocratic titles were adopted including Ogie, Ologbosere and Iyasere.

Some Yoruba titles like Olu, Oloye and Olareaja were retained. Being an amalgamation of two culture, Itsekiri retained the Ogie title, the Olu title and the Oba title. Whilst Olu of Itsekiri was more pronounced, their kings were also called Ogie and Oba (See the Itsekiri Anthem).

The children of a king are called Oton-Olu while the heir to the throne is called Oma-Oba. Now, the question is, why is Oba found in Itsekiri and not in Ika? Isoko? Urhobo? Weren't these group also influenced by Bini? Why is it that only groups that share affinity with Yoruba have it in their lexicon?

Thebadpolitican:
Ogie means Duke, present day governor

Apart from benin city other part of benin do not use the title oba, the names who has oba attached to it in benin

Like the popular senator obaragbon
Names that has oba attached to it was named by the Oba himself in the palace to honor a person to see how sacred the name was


Bro there is no contention here

The urohobs have parables that used the word oba to describe the Oba of benin

The ondo has a parable that use the word oba to describe the Oba

There is so many parable that describe and adore the Oba of benin in various edoid tribe and use the word oba to describe him too

Ogie is not Duke bro. Ogie is king. There's no way you want to twist this hard fact. Quote me anywhere. Ogie means KING.

All name that has Oba attached to it are traced to Bini. No other Edoid group bears any Oba title. They all make use of Ogie. So why should we believe that Oba is the rightful word for King instead of the well accepted Ogie?

Oba of Uvwie 😂

UGBE634:
That the word "Oba" is not Edo is not what we should contest

These are the only set of persons that go with the Oba title in Edo state

They have something to do with yoruba or come outrightly from it.

Oba of Benin
Oba of Agbede
Oba-Oluogbe of Usen

Omo'n'Oba'n'Edo-

It literally translates to mean-

The one that is king over Edo

The etymology of the word Oba is in yoruba and not Edo, they usually tell you that the ba means light but the way it is pronounced suggest otherwise, the pronunciation of the ba is usually relaxed, it's not pronounced in a way to suggest light. There is no strong stress on the "ba"

Also the dating of Usen and Utesse royal line seem to tally with the Oba's dating

The Ososomaye juju that is obviously not Edo has been in the Oba's palace for centuries,

Sango, Orunmila and others, and their presence in Benin city seem to be tied to the Oba's emergence as king in Benin city, it is not coincidence. When you tie these points together, you might have gotten your answer

Also the republican system seems to be the norm for all Edo save for Benin who has an emperor moreso with an "Oba" title.

Exactly my point. Why is Oba only found in groups that share affinity with Yoruba? Why can't we find a trace in other pure Edoid groups ?

The supremacy of the Oba's isn't a enough to invalidate some observations. From what we can deduce: Ogie was once used by the Bini empire pre-migration.

Bini is the root. Before Ogie get accepted by all, then we can conclude that it was the right acceptable word for king before a major change in government.

Ogie isn't less than Oba. Both mean the same thing. Only that one is purely Edoid and the other...

@bolded, another valid observations. Most Edoid groups are republican. There's much to know about our past.

AreaFada2:
I already explained why. To say Usen and Iwerre are totally non-Edoid is wrong. When you consider how much Itsekhiri have mixed with Benin and Isiko/Urhobo and how much Benin has mixed with Usen. I know because aside Benin proper, I am closest to Usen, Iwerre and Eastern Yoruba. This interchangeability is recent, unless you can show me any pre-1800 evidence of being called Oba. Even, show me one pre-1897. Do you know why Olu of Itsekhiri position was suspended from 1856 to 1936 (no Olu for 80 years)? Do you know why Oba Akenzua II gave the grandfather of current Olu of Warri 14 beads to crown the next 14 Olus of Warri?

When the centuries old Portuguese-made crown was stolen last time, the current Olu relied on one of those 14 beads to do his coronation, not really the newly made crown publicly seen. Watch Olu's inauguration video. He said it himself.

Previously, each Ovie/Orodje came to Benin to buy his title. A three months journey to-and-fro to "buy Ovie". A very expensive and elaborate process of identifying the skull of the last Ovie in Benin. Some would-be ovies did not even survive the journey/rigour. I guess this may shock you to hear.

When the British invaded Benin and looted the palace, the skulls they saw were of prominent provincial rulers and defeated foreign rulers (like Deji of Akure in 1818). They were not sacrificial victims.

The whole body of work on these histories is an entirely massive subject of which most people who comment know less than 0.05%
If you have elderly people with good history knowledge, ask what going to Benin to buy "Ovieship meant". A Delta man in his 80s in about 1980 educated us about how they relate with Aka. Quite revealing. An average person from his tribe would totally dispute it today. The way Igbo today insult the Great Zik of Africa about the book he wrote in early 1970s revealing Onitsha history and its Benin origin. I mentioned rise of ethnic nationalism earlier. It grew steadily after Biafra War to what it is today.

The suspension of Oba's suzerainty over areas that Oba once held sway was a matter of Benin-British terms/pact of restoration of Benin Monarchy in 1914. For Oba to give up any rights of overlordship over areas outside what is now Edo South. Of course, many rulers outside Edo South still continued fulfilling ancient requirements stealthily for sometime. To cement their legitimacy since succession disputes were still decided in Benin.

Even now, many of those rulers still pay private visits (not the usual thank you visit that comes after coronation) to Oba of Benin in the period, knowing it is part of ancestral or ancient practice. Obi of Iselukwu openly did his to the Edaiken (His father Oba Erediauwa was indisposed at the time). Also in areas where succession disputes may occur, Oba's blessing is still valued, even prudent to have. The role of Oba of Benin in resolving the Dein of Agbor saga in late 1970s as he ascended the throne aged 2 was also clear. Things that are now being debated about Benin and Agbor history were not in question when Ben was aged 2. He was brought to Oba Palace before going to UK. Those of us old enough remember it well.

We see how the goal-post has gradually shifted since late 1970s. With a share of national cake at stake, people are quickly readjusting their position and history to prove ancient difference and independence from others. Any tribe that has now achieved a sizeable population is leveraging on it politically. Politics is a game of numbers.

Among all proper Edoid people, if you mentioned Oba back then, it meant only one personage: Oba of Benin. So no other related ruler would have assumed that title in the past. Elawure and Olu never used Oba title before. Even now, Elawure will never go to Benin and call himself Oba. He is Enogie. By the way, Elawure and Enogie of Utese are not the only so-called "non-edoid" Enogie in Edo South.

To truly understand history, one must do some own research. I have explained as much as I can. Or I will be repeating what I have done many times on NL before already about Oba title.

Usen and Iwere may have mixed so well with their Edoid neighbors, but the core-fabric of these groups is Yoruboid. Bro, Oba is very pronounced the Iwere language. They use it in titles, proverbs and praise singing. You can't say it is a recent adaptation when the word has strong root in the language itself compared to Edo whose link we could barely establish.

Again, the Oba of Bini's supremacy doesn't validate the claims that Oba is an Edoid word. You keep stressing on the Oba's strength and influences. That's not what is on the table here. If smaller Bini-influenced groups like Iwere and Usen could interchangeably used the Oba title, then this invalidates your initial assertion that Oba was reserved only for the Bini emperor.

I may not be a linguistics, but I know it is hard for a word to just vanish from a mother language without any trace. Even lost Edo words like Okoro is still traceable within the Urhobo and Isoko dialects. If Oba was used pre-migration, then some few Edoid groups would have kept a trace of it. But surprisingly, only Yoruboid groups kept strings of the word. What does that tell you ?

You are very correct in some of your assertions. The Bini influences over related groups was very strong. You can't do anything pertaining royalty without informing the Oba. Even several external communities was under the direct rulership of the Oba. For example, the Oba was the one in charge of what is today known as Oghara. Urhobo grew in population and strength and some influences could no longer hold.

AreaFada2:
Let me tell you why. Whether Edoid groups were largely independent or dependent, most acknowledged Oba's superiority. Even those that were more independent sought Oba's confirmation or blessing. Even outside direct Edo areas.

For example, in 1818 (just yesterday in historical terms), Benin sacked Akure when the new Deji of Akure refused to accept instruments of office from Chief Osagwe, Oba Osemwende's emissary. The Deji even murdered Osagwe. It was serious rebellion and breach of established order. Of course Oba demanded Deji's head physically and got it.

As for Warri, in 1480, Oba Olua sent his son Prince Iginuwa (Ginuwa) to go and be the Lord of the Seas as his new domain. There are various versions as to how this came about. But he was to be "Ogie Amen". About 8 or 9 years ago, the father of current Olu said was now a Christian and wanted to drop Ogiame title. His own family and Iwere youth protested. He was advised to retain it or abdicate. Gov. Uduaghan, Rita Lori Ogbegbor and others had to intervene. He retained the name to calm things. Iwere people said Ogiame is the tittle Iginuwa brought from Benin and there is no dropping it. Adding Olu to it fine. I posted the link to the story on NL before.

All rulers below the Oba were never called Oba in Benin Empire. They were seen as dukes/Enogie/Ogie/Enigie. In the same way Enogie of Utese and Enogie of Usen are seen today. If they were in Delta or outside Edo South, they might be officially called king by now.

Even when Lagos monarchy was founded by Oba Orhogbua of Benin, it was meant as a dukedom, under Benin and that was in Benin view the case until 1861 when Britain took over Lagos with Eleko Dosunmu. Lagos rulers did not even use Oba title before then but Eleko.

In essence, in Benin view, Oba was not just a King title but also an emperor. Therefore, no other ruler believed to have allegiance to Benin would bear Oba title. Even if their Ogie title, due to influence and size of their domain, would equate to kingship. Obas of Benin were administratively very precise. Names, titles and all were well-controlled. They always figured out ways to outmanoeuvre the rising powers and influence of Benin High Aristocracy and areas considered Benin territory, whatever people now say of their history post-1897 and especially in current 9ja with rise of ethnic nationalism. It marvelled Europeans already from 1470s.

I have read numerous PG and doctoral theses on Benin History by researchers from across the world and its quite amazing what they reveal everyday. From Oba Palace Musicology to Palace Societies to Councillors of State.

As for how long Oba title has existed, it was in Benin before Eweka 1 Dynasty. We have exhausted the history of the title here over the years in many threads and posts.

Today, nobody is superior over anyone. It doesn't feed anyone. History just has be straight.

In my own enclave, we are expected to pay our homage to AKA (Bini) during a coronation of a new King or High chief (a practice that has long being abandoned).

No one is disputing the Oba's influences. His influences was never in question. We are only asking questions about the root of the word Oba because we can't seem to trace it in the Edoid lexicon.

Even if Oba was exclusively reserved for the emperor of Bini, there could have been reference to the word with the Edoid family. For example, the Urhobos refer to God as Oghene but Bini word for God (Osanobua) is very much traceable in several Urhobo dialects (Osonobrugwe/osolobrugue). This is validity of a word within a family group.

Also, why is it that only non-edoid group call their Kings Oba? Usen and even Iwere. These groups interchangeably call their kings Oba. Why are they comfortable with the Oba word?

Supremacism is the reason we won't get anything right as regards to our historical connections and heritage.

Some things shouldn't even be debated when the facts are there. You can't claim to apply common sense and logic and still believe somethings.

The Oba title debate is funny to me because Edo is the core root of most South Southerners and it won't be difficult to validate some claims. If you say the Oba title was used for over 1000years, then other edoid groups would have retained it in their various dialects.

As we speak, the only title that spreads across all related group is Ogie. Now here are my questions.

* When was Oba first used ?

* Why isn't it found in any Edoid languages?

* Most Edoid groups were very independent from Bini influences and would have adopted the title for their leaders if it was the title used pre-migration.

* Why was Ogie the general accepted word for king? Even Unrelated bini-influenced groups like Iwere used Ogi(e)ame. Why not Oba-Ame?

I believe there is a missing link somewhere. The dots aren't connecting.

AutomaticMotors:
On the surface it will appear the Benin borrowed the word from the Yorubas because of its wide used by them and their bigger population, but the fact is no Yoruba traditional ruler used the Oba title until the 1900s. Under British colonial rule the most senior Yoruba rulers such as the Ooni and Alaafin used the title Sir, so what you have is Sir Adebola Ademola, the Ooni of Ife, it was later they started using Oba.

The Benin have been using the Oba title for almost 1000 years with the European having written records of the last 600 years of it used by the Benin.

How can a tribe that have been using a word and title for almost 1000 years with almost 600 years of documented records borrowed it from a tribe that recently started using it.

Linguistically, it's impossible for a language not to borrow words from other group. I'm not arguing on the ground of supremacism but common sense and logic.

Just 700 years ago, some Edoid groups standing alone today were still together with the parent Bini group. Mass migration only started around 12000-13000. Even at that, almost all edoid groups retained one form of the archaic Edoid language and "Oba" hasn't been found in any of them.

There are some words I can argue that belongs to the Edoid languages and "Omo" is one of them. Without stressing yourself, you could easily see how almost all edoid groups who had zero contacts with Yoruba make use of it.

Ogie on the other hand is visible in all Edoid languages. Meaning Ogie was once used before the massive migrations. Even yoruboid groups influenced by Bini still uses Ogie. EG, Itsekiri calls their Olu Ogi(e)Ame = King of Water.

If Oba was used by Bini for 1000years, why doesn't it have a trace in other group of languages?

garfield1:
My brother,okowa that outsmarted ibori cannot bw underrated.he gave atiku the highest votes in ss in 2019.he will do whatever it takes to win delta no matter how popular obi is.he is still in control of ika and delta south where votes are produced.highest obi will get is a close second...
Obi seems popular mainly in benincity but apc is very strong in ovia side.the esans are undecided while edo north is apc.so it will be tight,dont follow the media frenzy.it was so in 2019 and buhari almost won edo..
Even in rivetrs,most people shouting obi are in ph,eleme and oyigbo.what about the ogonis,kalabaris,ahoadas,etches,ekrikas,abdonis and these are areas that matters...all these narrow victories is favouring Tinubu...

For nw,I don't think el rufai is vital.whoever wins kaduna will do so marginally.key people will be bagudu,masari,matawalle,wamakko,badaru,ganduje.even if those govs betray him,those at the grassroots can still salvage Tinubu.the nw us clearly divided into three and Tinubu is campaigning very well

Nobody is underrating Okowa reason I'm not giving LP 70% win like some people do. You should know that Ibori was the one who gave Delta South the electoral value they are currently enjoying and with the crisis rocking the party at the state level, it would be naive to think anyone controls the creek votes. Up till this very moment, no single Ijaw bigwigs have endorsed PDP, note one! They are all mute and with the new electoral laws, I'm believing some things won't be as usual.

So when you consider these factors plus the wide acceptance of LP, it only makes sense to conclude that they would win albeit with a close margin. Even if PDP miraculously wins, the margin would be meaningless.

Wanted to mention Wamakko, that man is doing lots of Damage to PDP in Sokoto. Ganduje is a strong ally to Bat and El-Rufai is one of the few actor in the region whose support for BAT is unwavering.

Workch:
Money alone can't win primaries, money can make the difference. A huge difference.

I would not downplay the impact of governors before BVAS. BVAS has significantly reduced their power.
While they still have a role to play, it only comes to vote buying. They can no longer influence figures massively
You have to agree

My arguments are;

* Money alone without political supports is useless
* Governors are important in Nigerian election
* Northern governors are the only reason BAT scaled through the primaries and they are still the reason he still has a chance in NW and NEestern states despite the poor performance of the ruling party.
..................................................................................

If the Northern governors were to turn their back on BAT like they did to GEJ, he would loose the election before the D-Day. His money is meaningless without the support of political gladiators.

garfield1:
My brother,I am on all fours with you esp your analysis on ss.ss is a battleground.delta will be contested by the three parties and all will get 25% though I see atiku winning.with wike against atiku,rivers is obi vs tinubu but I see obi winning with tinubu getting 25%.in aks,I see pdp winning but obi and tinubu should get 25%.in bayelsa,it is apc vs pdp.it will be closely contested.in crs river,the three parties are well matched but with apc campaigning more with more personnel and resources and pdp disunited,apc may win.I think edo is between lp and apc with lp narrowly winning.
In nc,lp penetratuon is mostly in benue,plateau and fct but it seems they have lost steam on benue.but obi should beat atiku in nc.the battle will be in ne nw

I still disagree with on Delta's result 😂. I told you some days back that LP has wide acceptance. Agreed that the margin won't be much, but Obi is now favored to win the state.

LP will also win Rivers (With or without wike's support) and EDO. Winning states in SS isn't really the problem but at what margin?

If 1m people voted in Delta and 45% went to LP, 35% for PDP and 20% for APC, such win won't count much as opposed to 80% combined forces of LP/PDP and 20% of APC. This simple permutation was how GEJ was able to knock out Buhari in the first poll. Infact, if not that SWestern votes were divided in 2015, GEJ would have won.

Presently, there are some states PDP won't even see 10%. Example is Lagos.

NW will be the decider for me and if the northern governors turn their back on BAT, then he is a goner 😂. But the governors are also fighting for their interests and a northern straight rule won't be beneficial to them. Gaduje and El-Rufai are his main pillar.

Workch:
Governors can help you win primaries but they cannot help you win the general election if you are not popular in that region, especially with BVAS.

Governors didn't help Tinubu in the primaries, he paid himself into winning via the governors. It's hard to do that on a large scale during thr main election

LP doesn't need 60% southwest to win. LP only needs to get 25% from all southwest states to win.

Never you think that any Northern governor is with Tinubu for free and fairness, are you a learner in politics?

Money alone can't win you primaries. You need strategic supports from governors who by extension controls the delegates.

The National chairman of APC and Aso cabal never wanted BAT and they didn't even hide it. Few weeks to the primaries, northern governors were summoned to Abuja and they insisted that power must return to South. That was even after Lawal had been endorsed by some cabal members and some APC key figures.

The northern governors fought fiercely for BAT. If not for them, Ameachi or Lawal would have won.

Also, you can't downplay the impacts of governors in Nigerian elections, unless you are not truthful to yourself. Religion, Tribe, Political support and masses acceptance are what you put on the table when discussing the outcome of any election. Even in state levels, Tribe, political supports and masses acceptance play an important role.

Unless LP wins SS with a landslide and get atleast 50% of NC, They would need chunk of votes from SW. Like how GEJ secured his first ticket.

Svoboda:
Non realistic possibility. Fight is between tinubu and atiku. Obi is gnawing at pdps power base in the ss and se. Apc is more or less intact.

A united opposition would have trashed APc by a wide margin. I mean a very wide margin. Maybe with a win of over 65%.

LP has done huge damages to whatever PDP would get in SE, SS and SW (Lagos especially, PDP is well rooted in other SW states and they might secure some numbers but protestant south Western votes will go to LP).

It's a fact that the cabals are not on BAT's side. Infact, his saving grace in Northern Nigeria (NW & NE) are the northern governors who are not only a close ally but fighting to get their hands on the presidential seat in the next 8years. They singlehandedly rescued BAT during the primaries and dished the cabals. Unless they betray BAT, it would be ignorant to write him off.

LP would need to get atleast 60% of SW votes and win SS with a huge margin (personally, I don't think any SS states would give bloc votes) for them to win. I'm impressed with LP's penetration of NC.

2023 was/is PDP's chance to regain power if only LP, NNPC and the G5 weren't in factor.

garfield1

JasonScoolari:
See Ekpà..

I guess you read that on Lagos/Ibadan Express Newspaper.... 🤣 Omo-Agege sold Ibori out? Na wa.

Efewestern, abeg come see another Ofurukpé.

LoL, they don't know Agege is part of Ibori dynasty. Like how many times are we going to tell them that people decamping are just doing so to install Agege?

Even before the defection. Most Ibori loyalist were already doing anti-party activities. Some are just bold to come out to declare their support. Plenty are still in PDP doing damage.

garfield1:
Ibori has endorsed Joel thomas

I'm beginning to think he has a chance of winning. He was also endorsed by some Ijaw chiefs some weeks back.

He just need to secure his home front and get atleast half of Ijaw support.

AutomaticMotors:
SPEAK ONLY ON WHAT YOU KNOW AND WITHIN YOUR BOUNDARIES!!!

Perhaps you should educate me.

Why aren't there any trace of Oba in other edoid languages? Why is Ogie more prominent in almost all edoid languages but not Oba? In what way is Oba edoid?

You should also note that all sub-edoid group one way or the other retained some archaic edoid words but I haven't seen one making use of Oba.

AutomaticMotors:
Lol!! Your Ogogoro is weighting heavy on your brain better rest!! And stop dragging isoko into your muddy embrace they stand alone and separate!!

No name calling bro. What I stated is fact. The Urhobos had the largest population in Midwest/Bendel. Having more population than almost all other sub-edoid group put together.

urbobo20:
How comes they are using Ovie instead of oba in edo north . I thought Ovie is been used by urhobo and isoko alone. Though I know we urhobo migrated from Edo

Ovie is an Edoid word. Most Edoid related group use Ogie. Urhobo/Isoko being the largest popularized the word that doesn't mean other group doesn't make use of it.

Oba is no way Edoid, has no root whatsoever. Ogie/Ovie means leader/head/king.

JasonScoolari:
And I will be so glad if Omo-Agege defeats that our toutish PDP Gubernatorial candidate.

But bro, this election will be so tight. I might not even go out. You no hear the recent happenings when Agege come Ekpan?

Kala everywhere.

JasonScoolari:
Lol, that Ofurukpé wey you reply na Ogogoro champion for Rumokoro.... Sometimes, he brain dey shake.

LoL. Na my OG, I say make I update am on the real happening of things. Most people decamping to APC in recent times are doing so because of the gubernatorial election.

The Agege-factor.

garfield1:
I haven't realized everything.I always knew obi will do well in delta because of the number of igbos there just as in rivers,the level of education and awareness there and due to the level of urbanisation there...I always adjust my projections based on development happening,I am flexible.if not that okowa is running mate and delta south gives bloc votes,I'll have given delta to obi

Igbo population won't be the reason Obi will win Delta state. They are not majority and they alone can't determine the outcome of the result. This is for Delta state, can't speak of rivers.

Obi is simply loved by all. You'd be surprised at the way he's accepted in places like Warri and sapele. Keke riders are using their own funds to print banners etc. No presidential candidate has enjoyed such massive acceptance in this zone since 2015.

Also, these plenty resignations have nothing to do with the presidential election. They all have more effects on the gubernatorial elections.

As for Delta South, they have not shown any interest whatsoever in the presidential election. It would be foolish for any party to bank on them.

senatordave1:
Igbuya is also from okpe

He just decamped and he isn't also a heavyweight. Most people prefer Dafinone. I Know you are not comfortable with his candidature, but PDP isn't much a threat to him.

Aiel123:
Manager or Diden?

sageb:
senator James manager is not contesting this time, it is zone to Itsekiri. Michael Diden is the PDP candidate for Delta south senatorial district.

Diden I mean. Was trying to say if the Ijaws would throw their support on Onowakpo, he'd emerge winner because Diden will sure get bloc votes from his Itsekiri people.

Aiel123:
It's understandable. They have no candidates in both parties. I foresee a minimal turnout. But they have got the means to swing the tide to anyone they'll eventually support as I don't see them being neutral.
They have saved PDP countlessly.

Yes, they are the main deciders in the forthcoming election. We already know the standings of North and Central.

Come to think of it, they've singlehandedly saved PDP for years. Don't know why the present leadership couldn't keep a healthy relationship with them considering the resources they poured in 15/19.

Well, lessons will be learnt.

Aiel123:
This is not the first time Tompolo is cashing out from the federal government.
Ijaws haven't ported to APC. Undecided is the word.

But one thing is 100% guaranteed, for the first time since 1999, PDP won't be getting bloc votes from the Ijaws in both presidential and governorship election.

No Ijaw bigwigs have shown any interest whatsoever in the election. Not one. They are just mute and unperturbed.