Yujin:

It takes more than just having a branch of IYC and INC in your in a SS community to become Ijaw. A lot of those non-Ijaws accepted those groups due to the power the Ijaws haad in the old Rivers state. Today, the power of the Ijaws have waned and we see some of these communities charting a separate course. People aren't foolish you know. They ask questions over time when they see that the language is different. Without linguistic ties, it's very difficult forming a bond with diverse groups. Even the fulanis in the north had to promote Hausa language all over the north to unite the diverse groups there for a stronger political block. The Ijaw group is standing on a shaky foundation. It won't take time before it comes crashing down.
For the Efik-Ibibio-Annang, they can easily close ranks because they can communicate with one another in Efik/Ibibio. I've seen this happen many times. Despite how they kick openly, they will easily form a united front WHEN THE TIME COMES.

I really wish the Edoid can come together to form a united front but it seems so far fetched. One major problem is still language non-intelligibility. In case you don't know, some Edoids are still holding on to their linguistic brothers but there seem to be no help from fellow Edoids. I'm talking about the Udekama people of Degema town. The Ijoids around them are putting so much pressure on them currently even to the level of violence. It was similar pressure the Ijaws put on those other smaller groups you saw in Bayelsa and parts of Rivers. With Rivers being out of the grip of the Ijaws, a lot of those smallr groups now breathed a sigh of relief and are today exerting their real identity.

The Ijaws still wield so much power in the region and are one of the most dominating group. While they come behind the Ibibio-anang-Efik and Edoid when it comes to population, these groups don't know the essence of unity. And you are actually wrong to think these non-ijoid groups are pulling out of their Ijaw identity.

The IYC is one of factor that bridges the unity of they Ijoid groups. There are a lot of other factors that has made other subgroups go strong with their Ijaw identity and letting go of that identity means their end and possible subjugation. No other group in the whole of Southern Nigeria has been able to unite all of its groups like the Ijaws has.

The Edoid groups in Bayelsa are long gone. They have been so incorporated into the overall Ijaw body and you also need to know some have Ijaw ancestry. Even here in Delta, some Edoid groups are of Ijaw ancestry including some Urhobo clans. If linguistic isn't used as a uniting force, ancestry link will definitely be used.

garfield1:

Yes the Jukuns have successfully done this by uniting most Christian tribes in Taraba under jukuns umbrella except the mumuyes to counter the fulanis and tivs.the HAUSAS have done this too and to a small extent igbos

Yes I know of the Jukuns. If not for their tenacity, they would have long been cornered. They understand that unifying packets of closely located tribes is essential for their survival, especially in a region where ethnic cleansing is prominent.

The Ijaws understand what it means to come together to forge a common goal. Something I wish other groups can do. I sincerely do not see the need for the Urhobos and Isokos splitting for example, when we share same ancestry and identity.

The Ijaws have united Igboid, Edoid and other riverine groups into their Ijaw umbrella and these people see themselves as nothing but Ijaws. The Ijaws in Delta state went to the extent of creating lead for the Ijaws in Ondo, that the Ijaws from Ondo come into Delta and benefits whatever is due to the Ijaws in the state.

The Igbos and Yorubas are not good unifying groups. Lots of Yoruboid groups in NC are lost gone. The Igbos are finding it difficult to put Ikwerre and other related groups into their fold, but not the Ijaws. So I agree that the Ijaws are the largest, but when we have a unified Akwa-Cross & Edoid forces, they should come third.

Yujin:

They don't see themselves as Ijaws but don't make noise about themselves being different. They are not Ijaws and have their own ethnic associations.

Actually, the Ijaws are the only groups that have been able to unify all related groups into a single umbrella. The issue you will face uniting the Edoid groups is the same issue you will face uniting the Igbpid groups.

There are Edoid groups that are fully Ijaws now. They go with the Ijaw identity and readily flaunt it. See me here debating the bond between the Efik/Ibibio/Annang and you see garfield1 fighting me to standstill not to group his people as one.

But not the Ijaws. They are fierce and have been able to command dominance even when we have a bigger group from the Akwa-Cross Axis.

garfield1:


These people esp efik/annang Ibibio don't want to be grouped as one so leave am.the ijaws are the largest

Lol. I'll let you win this one. Yes, the Ijaw identity is very strong. Their numbers is debatable. Have a good day bro.

garfield1:


No sir,I'll do it as it has been officially gazetted please which is efik,annang,Ibibio,urhobo,isoko,bini,isan.ethnologists/ethnographers that classified them as distinct ethnicities know why and have more info than you and me.let us leave it at that.better still,I can allow you classify as you like in edo delta axis but since akwa cross is my region,let me take the lead...
I tagged you to come and identify other areas of urhobo population not to argue about ethnic classification please.i know outsiders see the entire akwa ibom as one tribe called Calabar people but this is very False.cross river state alone has over 70 ethnicities.please be guided.

If we are to go be the official gazetted groups, then you are a bit correct with your op. But I will argue that the ibibios are more than the Ijaws.

Again, I want you to understand my point of argument. There's a reason people are classified into groups. It isn't to make anyone superior or inferior. I know for a fact that the Akwa Cross region is complex, but these people are from the same stock and speak a language and have a culture that is nearly similar. It is not out of place to group these people as one, same way it's not out of place to group the Urhobos and Isoko as one. When you do that, you are not necessarily exacting the dominance of one over the other, but making it clear to bond that exist between these groups. There's far more what bond the Urhobo/Isoko and Efik/Ibibio/Anang that what actually separates them.

garfield1:


Yes efik,annang and Ibibio share similarities but are classified as different tribes.each of them see themselves differently so respect that please just as isoko and urhobo are distinct.lets stick to the main issues,don't bring divisions please

No division. If you split groups according to their perceived identities, then you shouldn't add all anioma groups as Igbos, and all Ijaw groups as Ijaws. Most of these people see themselves as their own unique identity.

For better debate. You classify the Efik/Ibibio-anang as one. And nothing wrong classifying the Urhobo/Isoko as one. They are from the same stock and should be classified as one.

If you split these groups, you'd have up-to 100's of tribe which will make your debate cumbersome. For a start, aside the ibibios, there is no group that outnumbers the Urhobos. If we are to go by the identity in which these groups identify themselves with.

Rephrase your OP and get it done then right way. Ibibio-anang-Efik. Edoid, Ijoid. Etc

garfield1:


No na,they don't make the cut.they don't even have an LGA they own wholly.they share odukpani with qua and efut,share municipal with qua,share south with efut,share akpabuyo with qua and efut,same in bakassi

You classification of these groups is Wrong. Efik/Anang/Ibibio are from the same stocks and should form a single group. I'm not interested in their dirty local politics, but you apply classification for all groups not only the major groups.

Undoubtedly, The Efik/Ibibio bloc are the largest in the South South and they should be the fourth largest in Nigeria.

The Ijoid don't not come close to second.

Yujin:

Are you claiming that the population given in that table wasn't an ethnic one but rather the general population of the division? I disagree with you on that because if it was so, they would have stated it. Warri was used specifically for the Itsekiris but the populations of other ethnic groups there(in Warri) were pushed into their home divisions. That is why there wasn't any room for overlapping ethnic populations in other divisions. No division even at that time was without migrants. This is how you will know. Compare Itsekiri population with Isoko population at the time and today. It still tallies.
Urhobo and Isoko= 41.81%
Anioma = 33%
Ijaw = 15.48%
Itsekiri = 9.69%

Again, that was the regional District not Ethnic nationalities. During the Western region, Isoko was under Urhobo district untill they eventually had their own. I attached the referendum of the Midwest region during their breakaway quest from the stronghold of Awolowo led-western regional government.

From the below attachment, you can see Urhobo, Western Ijaw, Warri, Asaba, Aboh (Ndoshimili & Ukwuani) as district rather than ethnic groups.

During the creation of Delta these district were divided into what we today known as LGA.
* Isoko was divided into Isoko North and South.
* Western Ijo was divided into Burutu, Bomadi, and Patani (Urhobos are in Patani)
* Ndoshimili & Ukwuani was the two district that made up Aboh division and it was Ukwuani, Ndokwa East and Ndokwa West
* Urhobo was further divided into 8 LGAs.
* Warri was divided into Warri North (Itsekiri), Warri South West (Itsekiri) and Warri South (Urhobo & Itsekiri).

Should even be arguing this? Are you not aware of the crisis in the Warri district that was caused by Awolowo when he dabbled into the Warri district power tussle and changed the Olu title to Olu of Warri, with the Olu being the traditional head of Warri, a district with other ethnicities which caused lots of tension and resulted in the Urhobos backing the NCNC?

Why did you reduce Anioma's population from 33% to 30% and even went further to decrease it to 1/4th(25%) if not because of bias? I just wanted to set the analysis straight based on the data you uploaded. Published stats are produced without ambiguity to guard against guessing just like you did because they'll be used by the government for planning purposes.

I made errors in my calculations which also affected the Edoid population. I've proven to you with facts that the labelled places in my photo image wasn't a ethnic nationality rather it was a district. If we are to add the Urhobo population in Warri and Western Ijo, will you still arrive at the same numbers?

I didn't state that I supported the claim of Igbo being the largest in the SS but the argument can be made due to some factual circumstances. I will leave it for now.

What facts can be made in the face of glaring prove that the Igboid don't come close to been largest, when we have the Efik/Ibibio and Edoid groups?

My conclusion on the former post was that the contention for the largest is between the Igboid, Ibibiod and Edoid.

There is no contention anywhere, rather it's you trying to be clever by not wanting to accept the mistakes and falsehood of some people here. How can we even be debating who is larger when you can clearly see the big guys in the room?

Reference any population census. Even use the 2006 and point where any group beat Edoid not to talk of Effik/Ibibio.

The Ijoid isn't even close and I sent you a link for you to peruse and infer somethings about the Ijoid population. You will infer from their that hardly will you find any state where whole Ijoid population is up to 2.5 million. Not even in Bayelsa that they are in the majority. This puts the Ijoid total population to be below 5 million. Counter it with facts if you must.

The Ijos are a diverse groups. Most of the Edoid groups you would want to exclude from the iJo family actually identify as Ijo. Wether or not they are wrong is a debate for another day.

Now, the Efik-Ibibio-Anaang(Ibibiod) population after my research is almost at 6-6.5million. Notice I didn't add the Oron, Ibeno and Eastern Obolo languages. If I added them, they will be the clear majority in the SS. I did so because of political reasons and language intelligibility.
The Edoid number about 5.5-6million but language intelligibilty is their greatest weakness and it will always show. It's either the Bini and Esan hold up the Edoid or the Urhobo and Isoko do so but they'll won't be able to hold it up. Here's a single fact; there's no single umbrella body for Edoid people. The same problem the Ibibiods have. I'll leave you to conclude this for yourself.

So it's now about Umbrella bodies and not actual numbers? Let me tell you a hard fact, There's no single Umbrella bodies of any group in the region aside Ijaws. Also, mutual intelligibility is a concern for everyone. Why are you secluding only the Edoid & Effik people? Do you understand all your groups language? Do you even know if I understand Bini language to some degree?

Or they told you an Ilaje person can communicate freely with someone from Lagos?

Yujin:

Your analysis is wrong and I say it was tainted by bias.
Let us start with the percentage you gave Anioma from the table you provided.
Urhobo alone was 32.85%
Anioma was 33%
Urhobo and Isoko was 41.81%.
However, your analysis brought Anioma down to 30% and you concluded by ascribing 1/4th population of Delta for them. That's a huge error that can only be blamed on bias.

As for the total population of the Igboid, Edoid and Efik /Ibibio as to who among them is this largest in the SS, I'm still compiling to bring something closest to the most accurate data. I don't just throw statistics around because it can easily be debunked. You'll notice that I never mentioned the Ijaw because clearly they're not close to the largest in anyway. Even if you use the word Ijoid like you use for the Igboid and Edoid, Ijoid is still a distant fourth and I'll prove it.
Visit this link and see Bayelsa state ethnic composition. The Ijaws and Ijoids in the state are not more than 65%. Bayelsa is mostly Ijoid, followed by Cross River language group of languages, then Edoid (Urhobo/Isoko) and finally Igboid(Ekpeye and Ukwuani).
https://www.nairaland.com/6885475/ethnic-diversity-bayelsa-state

Warri Population is obviously not added in your calculation. Or you don't know the ethnic groups that occupied the Warri province in the 60's and even till now? Even if the Urhobos in Warri was 15% of the population (Which is not possible, because majority of Warri province population was in present day Warri South LG that is heavily shared between Urhobo & Itsekiri). If I'm to add the Urhobo population in Patani & Bomadi, then the Urhobos should be nothing less than 38% of the entire population. Also, I left 5% uncounted for, giving rooms for any slack.

Again, you are bias to not see the falsehood some people are trying to push. There's no way anyone can challenge the population strength of the Effik/Ibibio folks. My only problem with them is that they don't know the strength they have. After the Effik, you have the Edoids that completely dominate two states.

Then you also have the Ijaws whose population in Delta alone covered that of Ndokwa & Ndoshimili together, and Itsekiri (from their population in Warri Province). The Ijaws are also the lead majority in Bayelsa and the Edoid numbers can't be more than 10% of the population.

Without even debating, you know it's a lie to say Igboid are the biggest group in a region with far more dominating groups.

Ologbo147:
pay no heed to those ones who are not educated enough to know that Urhobo and Isoko are Edoid groups, even Degema, Engenni , Epie-atissa are all Edoid groups even linguistically even if the last three identify as Ijaw.


Avoid the last one call Beninrefugee, he is empty, seem like one that will never learn or take correction and is out to derail the thread

Limiting Edoid to Bini is even dumb, not when Bini is just one part of the whole family. Maybe they confuse the success of the Bini Empire to the spread of the Edoid aboriginals. If we are to follow strict linguistical protocol, a huge chunk of Bayelsa will fall under Edoid.

But the Ijaws are quite peculiar, they know how to unite groups within their reach, even our Edoid related brothers. It will shock you to know how Edoid formed a part of the Ijaw identity and how the Ijaw ancestors also formed a party of the Edoid identity. The Ijaws are some of the ancestors that made up some Urhobo communities.

afube:

what in the world does edoid mean.....bini people are limited to edo state na!

Edoid - A group of people who speak variants of the Edo language and share common ancestry (most) and culture.

Bini - A tribe belonging to the Edoid group.

Edo State - A place many believe to be the origin of the Edoid people.

So all groups I mentioned fall into the Edoid group. Same way you lump Itsekiri and Ilaje as Yoruboid or Ika & Ikwerre as Igboid... It's the same way groups who speak similar variants of the Edo language are called Edoid groups and they are found mostly in Delta, Edo and Bayelsa (Minority).

Please note, Bini is not the same as Edoid. They are a branch of the family, same as Esan, Isoko etc. So don't get confused.

BeninRefugees:


there are no Edoid people in Delta State now

What do you mean by there are not Edoid groups in Delta State?

Ologbo147:
and also Igarra,

Akoko Edo as big as it is comprise of just five percent of the population of Edo state.

Okpamheri as an Edo group comprise of 23 villages and its population was over 30 thousand minus Ososo in 1952 and all these communities are in Akoko Edo.

I do not think the insignificant population of Itsekiri in Ologbo that is even a shared community coupled with those sparsely Ijaw settlements in the two Ovia alongside with the population of Igbanke can go beyond 60% of Akoko Edo. Who are Yorubas in Edo state

I was even wrong according 5% to these non-Edoid groups. They should be far far less. The Itsekiri/Ijaw population are too minute to amount any significant population.

The situation in Edo is similar to most states in Nigeria. In Ondo for example, there are Edoid and Ijoid groups, but the Yoruboid are over 90%. In Anambra, there is Igala population. But somehow, these non-groups are ignored when numbers are counted but in the case of Edo, minute groups always want to be mentioned in a bid to push falsehood.

Ologbo147:
Igboid in Edo state are not up to two percent, maybe Edo south not the entire Edo state, when you pitch the population of Igbanke against the population of Edo state indigenes, it cannot go beyond 1.1 percent

Or even less. But these minute population are consistently mentioned to push falsehood and swell population numbers.

The 5% non-Edoid population in Edo state is shared between these iJo, Itsekiri and Ika. Very insignificant.

Ologbo147:
Edoid in delta is up to about 45 percent of the population of Delta state. Put it in plain terms, the Urhobos alone minus the Isoko totally cancels the Igboid group in Delta state and also Igbanke in Edo state.

When you add Isoko to the prevalent population of Edoid groups in Edo state, it will be two times and half the population of Igboid groups in Rivers state. Outside Delta and Rivers, you find Igboid groups in Minute quantity in Bayelsa and Akwa ibom

I ignored the significant Urhobo population in iJo territories in Delta state. There is no single group that can even argue numbers with Edoid in the whole of SS aside Efik/Ibibio. Funny how some falsehood can become a fact if repeated continuously.

BeninRefugees:


you just hanged yourself with this census

Igbos are clearly the 2nd largest group in SS after Efik and Ibibio

Unlike you, I debate with fact. The Edoid completely cancelled Igboid group in Delta. In Edo, the Edoid reign supreme. As at 1967, Edoid had a population of 1+ million in Edo. What's the population in Rivers, and how many of these population belongs to the Igboid group?

Igboid:


What are you blabbing about?
Igbos/Igboids of SS are the single largest ethnic group in SS.
This is my point and facts back this up..
Rema is from Igbanke likewise Boyspyce, this is a well known fact, if you want proof, just ask or you can simply use the Internet search button.

So where do you place the Effik/Ibibio in your debate? I thought we all argue with facts rather than sentiment.

Effik/Ibibio should be the fourth largest ethnic group in Nigeria. They always had the numbers.

Here's an unbiased ranking
1. Efik/Ibibio (98% of Cross River & Akwa Ibom)
2. Edoid (2/4 of Delta State, 95% of Edo state, 10% Bayelsa)
3. ijoid (90% Bayelsa, 1/5 Delta state, 1/4 Rivers State, 2% Edo)
3. igboid (1/4 Delta, 2/3 Rivers, 2%Edo)

If you want to argue further, we can start to referencing population census from the 50's.

Modified: I attached the population census of Bendel (Delta). Urhobo/Isoko (Edoid) - 42%
Igboid - 32%
Ijaw - 15%
Itsekiri - 10%. Please note that I didn't take account of the Urhobo communities in Western Ijo territories. Also didn't include Isoko population in Ndokwa. This is for Delta state. In Edo state, Edoid group occupied over 95% of the population.

The only state the Igboid group are majority, is Rivers. Meanwhile the Edoid dominate two states (Edo & Delta with significant population in Bayelsa & Rivers).

In Cross River and Akwa Ibom, the Effik/Ibibio occupy these states completely, giving them the clear lead.

The Ijaws are found in every states but only command numbers in Delta, Bayelsa and Rivers. There's no way they can surpass the Edoid group in strength.

Cc: Ologbo147.

Ologbo147:
I did not use Orogun anymore, i only added Orogun in the first place because of an excerpt i read that talked about Orogun descending maternally from Igbo.


Orogun is no longer the point in discuss, i gave you another perfect analogy which was there from my first comment you quoted.

Alisor/Alilehan speak Edo/Bini language as a first language, migrated into Ika, speak Ika as a second language today and identify as such. It it the exact same scenario as Usen . That is what i asked in my first write up to you

Okay, sorry for the mix-up. I now get your point.

Ologbo147:
They don’t speak it as a lingua franca, lingua franca is like an official language that is used for communication by strange groups or related groups whose languages are deemed not to be so intelligible.


They speak it as a first language, they speak Edo too, i added very similar example of Alilehan and Alisor with Edo first languages who migrated to Agbor, speak Agbor as a second language today and identify as such, you did not reply to that, there is a video evidence there, it is exactly the same scenario with Usen

Usen - Speaks more of Yoruba than Edo (Yoruba is the first language spoken by the people)

Orogun - Speaks Urhobo and only a very minute quarters speak Kwale.

Summary: Your analogy of Usen and Orogun is not totally correct.

Ologbo147:
It is not what about Orogun who is said to be maternally Igbo,

I believe the Orogun case and that of Usen are far different. Only a few quarters of Orogun speak kwale and it isn't the lingual-franca of the people. The language spoken everywhere is Urhobo and a majority of them don't Understand kwale unless some very few who reside in some quarters. We also have this case in Kiagbodo between the Ijaws and the Urhobos. And surprisingly, the Ijaws in Kiagbodo are the ancestors to some Urhobo/Isoko clans but they somehow were able to get influenced by the language.

Usen case is different. They speak Yoruba as the lingual Franca.

BRATISLAVA:


That's exactly what's happening here.

It's his duty to be a father. Not the woman. She's enjoying the benefits of his inability to be a father to his daughter.

Men who should be correcting some abnormalities in the way this man runs his home are doing otherwise. It's a pity.

We can see this man has lost control of his home and I'm feeling the wife is the one calling the shot. A teenager who doesn't like coming home after school hours must certainly have a reason. Kids sense hatred and bad energy from afar.

Just went through some of his old post and see how completely this young girl has suffered in the hands of her step mother. And the OP is shocked that the little angel is rabelling.

BRATISLAVA:


Why choosing his new wife over his own child? Why can't he find a middle ground?

Clearly this is his plan on evicting his daughter to please his new wife, without a care in the world what happens to her next. He just wants her off his hands. His new children are his only priority. He needs advice so that he can kill his conscience and do what she asked him to.

We know the game and plot. Key points to note.

* Girl behaves well when daddy is around.

* All negative things are reported by the wife. The man hasn't experienced any bad behaviours. My wife said this , she said that.

I know men reason too much with their joysticks that they always fail to protect their flesh and blood, but I think it's about time we put an end to the terror of women to their step kids. It's becoming unbearable and I'm already feeling sad for this innocent child because the wife has so much manipulated the head of her father.

Mrperfecto:
I will just be brief without writing too much.

We are based we have 4 children, my first child is 13 from my previous relationship, she has become very terrible, she doesn't listen to me or my wife. She tells her that she is not her biological mother and she cannot control her. She had threatened to call the police on my wife telling her if she touch her she will fight her back and call the police. She goes to school and closes at 3.45 her school is 10 mins walk from home, but she is always late for home.

She comes home around 6 sometimes 7pm , as I am writing now every friday she closes at 12.30 but she is still hasn't come back home yet.

I am on my way to work. I start at 6.30pm till 2.30am so I rarely get to see her and she only misbehaving when I am not around. So far we have seized her phone because we had found so many inappropriate messages exchanges between her and boys. We had also removed the TV from her room and her behaviour has gotten worse. She is behaving like she's possessed.

My wife and I are fed up. Even her siblings are tired of her. We want to send her back to Nigeria maybe in a boarding school until she is 18 in order to protect her younger ones. If we keep her and she continues with her terrible behaviour I may beat her badly and we may end up loosing all 4 children to the authorities.

Please what advice will you give to me concerning this issue?

I don't normally believe stories of step mothers against their step kids. Most of the time, it's born out of hatred.

Ask yourself this, why is it that she only misbehaves when you're not around? Is it that she responding to the hatred thrown to her by your wife?

Dig deep man and don't always swallow everything your wife says about your flesh and blood. If possible, get secret camera to monitor the activities of the house. And don't send your child over. There are ways to discipline if really she is rebellious for no just cause.

Peace!

That should be for foundation. If you are from riverine states like Delta, that money won't do sand filling.

House building cost o 😂

VinnyBaba:


All those Urhobo Communities domiciled inside Bomadi and Burutu LGA Sha.

Even The name Okuboama is an Ijaw word, that can be translated to mean 'Money land'.

The Urhobos and Ijaws can live peacefully in Burutu and Bomadi without any clash. They've been living as one.

What most of you don't know is that Ijaws form some ancestral bloc of the Urhobo people. Why many of you erroneously think all Urhobos migrated from somewhere in Edo state, the people who contributed to the enlargement of the group are the Ijaws etc. Either what you have in these LGAs are Ijaws with big Urhobo link and Urhobo with great Ijaw link.

I only wish these packet of clashes can end someday. I don't know why people who share same roots will pick up guns to fight eachother.

Africaplay:
Breaking News......

Crisis Going On Between IJAW- COMMUNITY (Okoloba )And Urhobo (Okuboama ) in Bomadi and Southern Ughelli areas.
Currently On. The Urhobo Haired Okwagba people same Urhobo to come and fight for Them.. Unfortunately they killed Them All...

Please Okwagba Road is Under CRISIS !!!!!
PLEASE SHARE TO ALL IJAW and Urhobo - Groups.

There is no crisis between the Ijaws and Urhobos. A handful of clash shouldn't be reported as a clash between these two ethnic brothers. There also exists a packet of clash in Aladja, but there is absolute no tension between these two group.

For clarification, the Urhobos in Bomadi have lived peacefully with their Ijaw neighbours for centuries. In fact, the Ijaws are a core of the Urhobos and so is the Urhobos a core of Ijaw.

SmartyPants:


It's always extremely difficult trying to reason with Nigerians. You are clearly ignorant and at the same time appear to have been indoctrinated in some way so of course you will argue over things that need no debate.

This is an Iranian site where Israeli incursions into Iran have been documented over the years:

https://iranprimer.usip.org/blog/2022/aug/11/timeline-israeli-attacks-iran

Excerpt:

Jan. 31, 2018: A Mossad team raided a warehouse in Tehran that housed a vast archive of Iran’s nuclear program. The agents used torches to cut through 32 safes. The team smuggled some 50,000 pages and 163 compact discs out of the country. On April 30, Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu announced that Israel obtained some 100,000 “secret files that prove” Iran had earlier lied about not having a nuclear weapons program. He also alleged that Tehran worked to “expand its nuclear weapons know-how for future use” even after the 2015 nuclear accord. Netanyahu presented maps, charts, photographs, and videos with details about Project Amad to design, produce and test nuclear weapons. Western intelligence had claimed for more than a decade that Iran had a covert nuclear weapons program.

It is a known fact that Israel has directly entered Iran several times. The Iranians themselves do not make any attempt to hide this. So one really wonders where you're getting your own info.

The claim that Israel acts on its own without US oversight is also one of the most laughable things I have heard in this year - young as the year itself may be, I have little hope of hearing more obvious nonsense. Israel receives billions of dollars in US aid and relies critically, on the assurance that the US will join in any war it finds itself in. Thus, they simply cannot start a war with their biggest rival, if their biggest supporter says no.

It's always extremely difficult trying to reason with Nigerians - distinguishing yourself from me or any other blacks don't make you intelligent, smart or special. To other race, you are still an inferior black man.

Now let's address your claims. The raid you cited was during the Nuclear deal in 2017/2018 when Israel wanted US to back out of the deal and continue with the sanctions. They were trying to prove Iran wasn't to be trusted. Benjamin Netanyahu had to even give a presentation about this. Many experts even had to verify the documents as it was so controversial at the time it was out. Eventually, US confirmed that the documents had a resemblance of the one they obtained from defectors. Now, things like this are not new and can't be deemed provocative. We see this with US intelligence gathering of Russia and others. This is different from sending your troops to a country or carrying out direct attacks. The former shows the strength and sophistication of your intelligence unit and the latter is bareface provocation.

If sophisticated intelligence gathering is same as direct attacks or provocations, then we can agree that most nuclear power nations have been attacked. You arguement is flawed and makes zero sense.

You are yet to prove any direct military strike by any nation in the country. Instead, you have been beating round the bush taking about sabotage, which we all know is a common thing in the country. what is the basis of this arguement again?

I discussed about sabotage and highlighted how it has been going on for years and you can't really prove anyone was responsible because of the manner in which they were carried. Most scientists in Iran are killed either with bombs placed inside the car or in-drive shootings.

At bolded, Israel has carried out several strikes without the support of US or any nation. If Iran is weak, they will strike and damn the consequences. Some of the time, they inform the US after the strike has been carried out.

You really need to read a lot more and have some sense too!

This is no necessary. You can do better.

SmartyPants:


Your conclusion is right but your workings are all wrong.


You say Israel won't dare provoke Iran but i've told you that Israel has provoked Iran on nunerous occassi9ns by directly entering Iran and blowing up military facilities and assassinating top scientists and government officials. If that is not a provocation, I don't what is.

Yes terrorists infiltrated the US. And in response, the US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan. If Iran openly enters Israel with its own troops or direct agents, like Israel has done to them, I expect the retaliation will be much more direct.

Finally the reason Israel hasn't attacked Iran nore directly is because the US keeps restraining them which is due to concerns of and for other US partners and assets in the region such as Saudi Arabia.

Israel flex power when they can. Look at what they are doing in Lebanon and Syria. Flying in and out and taking out targets. They don't even need to sponsor sabotage. They have the strength and mind to carry out these attacks because they know they won't be any repercussion.

Sabotage in Iran is different. It could be anyone and Israel doesn't even claim responsibilities. The people carrying out these sabotage are Iranians. No Israeli army or agent can get into Iran. Also no Israeli jet can't fly in and out of Iran. @bolded it seems you read too much comics.

Israel take most decisions without the US. They only rely on the US on Iran's case because Iran built strength over the years. If Iran was weak, Israel would have long bombed the country and there is nothing no one can do. But because Iran has the might to retaliate, they choose other means, which is sabotage and lobbying the US to impose heavier sanctions on the country.

Look at the recent blast in the country. Anyone blend with the population and plant bombs. Provocation will mean sending your soldiers to a country to carry out attacks or firing missiles or strikes to take your opponents in a country.

Crafteck1:

You are overestimating irans attack and downplaying isrrals defence.

No, I'm saying without strength, these countries would have been cornered.

Israel is one of the most hated country in the middle east. To prevent prevent their destruction, they invested heavily on their military might and with the support of the United States, they are left alone to flourish. Without strength, we both know what will happen to them.

Iran too is hated by most countries in the region. The Saudis and Sunnis don't like them because of ideological differences. Israel hate them because they are challenging their dominance in the region. And the truth is that they won't mind crippling the country but the strength Iran has amassed is why no one has dared do so. The repercussions will be enormous and won't be worth it.

TYCO77:
[color=#000099][/color]

In international politics it is referred to as balance of terror.

Mutual destruction.

Humans behaviour is very predictable. If US stops funding her military and shows weakness. The next day, missiles will be raining on her cities. It is the destruction they are capable of causing to anyone who dares provoke her is what is keeping everyone at length. Same with Russia, China etc.

Our quest to always want conquer will never end and the best to do for yourself and generation is to amass strength. Else you will be wiped out.

The world will enjoy peace if everyone is capable of protecting themselves. But this is not possible. 😂

mikeapollo:


Who told you Iran has military strength (intelligence, weaponry, sophistication etc.) equal to what Israel is capable of? Iran's strength stems mainly from its readiness to sponsor terrorism and attacks.
Its military capabilities are not up to the level of Israel.

I'm not having this discussion.

SmartyPants:


Strike does not equal "airstrike" or missile strike. Isrsel agents have directly infiltrated Iran on several occassions and struck at facilities and key individuals.

Terrorists infiltrated US. Also, it's easy to sabotage government infrastructure. You just need to buy people. These suicide bombings or occasional explosion on Iranian facilities or internal sabotage sponsored by external parties.

Still doesn't change the fact that Israel won't dare provoke Iran. Israel doesn't need "Spies" to hit Syria. They fly in. Strike. And claim responsibility. They do that because they know there won't be any consequences and because Syria has been weakened.

Is it that you don't get my submission? Strength prevents war.