₦airaland Forum

AlBaqir:
Emp.iree, as much as I agreed with your points, there two ishkal in them:

1. Somehow you still continue to stylishly accuse Shia as "sahabah cursers". That might not be intended but the moment you write or talk in general without exception, no one will be interested in your intentions.

2. You said you agree Ali was supposed to be the rightful caliph but at the end he later became the caliph of the Muslim; so that shouldn't generate to what it is today.

My brother, although your thought is sincere but if you know the implications of that thought, you wouldn't go into such submission. The hadith of the Prophet:

* "Whoever dies without recognizing/pledging allegiance to the Amir/Imam/Caliph of his time, does the death of jahiliyyah"

* I left two weighty things/two Caliphs: if you adhere to them both, you will NEVER go astray: the book of Allah and my ahl al-bayt, my offspring. Both shall NEVER separate from each other..."

The implication of your statement is that those who died before Ali got to power and those who refused to give allegiance to Ali even till date died the death of jahiliyyah and are on the path of misguidance.



Why was Bibi Fatima NEVER gave allegiance to Caliph Abubakar and never spoken with him till she died? Do you think it was just about the fadak land brouhaha?

We might not accept lots of things but at least let's not shy away from facts especially when there are undeniable evidences to support it.

bettercreature:
We should stop blaming politicians for all our problems, they didn’t tell him to build his house near a river or inside Lagoon
Houses are getting flooded in developed world as well
I stopped having sympathy for them the moment I realized 99% of them had their peak period but misused the money

sagenaija:
Empir.ee, please answer this:
You quoted the above. But the Koran also says:
Yusuf Ali (Quran 5:68) : Say: "O People of the Book! ye have no ground to stand upon unless ye stand fast by the Law, the Gospel, and all the revelation that has come to you from your Lord." It is the revelation that cometh to thee from thy Lord, that increaseth in most of them their obstinate rebellion and blasphemy. But sorrow thou not over (these) people without Faith.

So, which one is true?

Again, did Mohamed ever say that the Jewish and Christian Holy Books have been corrupted?

NOTE: "Distort in their usage" and "forgot" do not mean the same as 'distorted'.

true2god:
More references:

Baidawi (died 1286) writes:
“‘To me it has been revealed’, when naught has been revealed to him” refers to `Abdallah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh, who used to write for God’s messenger. The verse (23:12) that says, “We created man of an extraction of clay” was revealed, and when Muhammad reached the part that says, “… thereafter We produced him as another creature (23:14), `Abdallah said, “So blessed be God the fairest of creators!” in amazement at the details of man’s creation. The prophet said, “Write it down; for thus it has been revealed.” `Abdallah doubted and said, “If Muhammad is truthful then I receive the revelation as much as he does, and if he is a liar, what I said is a good as what he said.” (Tafsir Anwar al-Tanzil wa Asrar al-Ta’wil [by Abdallah ibn Umar Al-Baidawi])

Ibn Al Athir (1160-1233 AD) writes:
He converted to Islam before the conquest of Mecca and immigrated to the Prophet(P) [i.e. in Medina]. He used to record the revelation for the Prophet(P) before he apostatized and went back to Mecca. Then he told Quraysh: ‘I used to orient Muhammad wherever I willed, he dictated to me “All-Powerful All-Wise” and I suggest “All Knowing All-Wise” so he would say: “Yes, it is all the same.” (Ibn al-Athîr, Usûd Ulghâbah fî Ma’rifat Is-Sahâbah, 1995, Dâr al-Fikr, Beruit (Lebanon), Volume 3, p. 154)

sagenaija:
Emiree, lets look at it this way: Can you show us one place where your prophet Mohamed claimed that the Bible was corrupted?
Btw, Mohamed never wrote the Koran or instruct that it be put in the order it is in today. So, why the fuss about Jesus documenting the Gospels? It is important we know whether those who eventually compiled the Koran where authorised and INSPIRED by Allah to do so. That is what will really give credence to their work. I know you will run away from this. True2god busted you up there and you’ve run into hiding. Try not to do that this time.

aadoiza:
I love this. It seems you all do reflect on most of these issues. I didn't even know then they were called Sufi even though I grew up in their midst. All I knew was some were called tijaniyyah, some qadiriyyah (this i used to identify with), but l wasn't very proud about ways.


The height of my disillusionment with tijaniyyah was when a sheik, I went for his asalatu, said Niyyas was the Holy Prophet's incarnate just as Amadu tijani was, and I just couldn't wait to leave that gathering. However; I have always known how how these sufis always stay awake at night to do dhikr, though some of them don't observe salah. I thought about their love of dhikr for a very long time and said to myself, sheik Adam, Sambo, Salati, et al, could not all have been wrong and asked myself why would these great respectable scholars deliberately choose the path of shaytan? While still reflecting on this, I told my big brother that if there is anything like pristine sufism the sufis will be the best among Muslims for their constant remembrance of Allah.
Not too long ago, I started reading Sheikh Empir.ee's exposition on sufism and it clicked.

I don't know if I should hold any belief in the superiority one of them over the others, but one thing is certain, the sunnis seem to believe the first three khalifas after Rasool were superior to Ali, and I think that's why they would mention those ones 10 times before Ali but they don't hate him like the Shia say. Personally, I have come to favour Imam Ali more, especially after reading about what was done to him and his family by our fellow Muslim brothers ( I read the horrific account here first either by LagosShia or Albaqir).
I want to have a first-hand experience of shiism like you, brother, not just guzzling the disinformation littering our airways. It's sickening!!!


Ultimately, this should be the goal of every modern-day Muslims. Let's forget whatever brought about this insidious schism in our religion, after all none of us played a role in its genesis, and chart a new unifying course for the Ummah. Is this too much to ask?

Frenchkiss564:
During my university days salafis almost destroyed the Muslim community, they hijacked MSSN, condemned group zikr, condemned muslims greeting each other jumah Mubarak they said the sahabas never did it.

This did not go down well with the lecturers, the conflict got to the point that mosques in OAU halls of residence are still closed to this day.

Sultan of sokoto, Etsu of Nupe, MUSWAN had to step in to relief tension.

true2god:
[s]Hope you are not in Afghanistan or Libya? Stay safe bro! [/s]

You said 'the Injil given to Jesus was already distorted'. You guys will just manufacture a claim without evidence. Where did the Quran say, specifically, that the Injil has been distorted? Why will Allah ask the Muslims to 'consult the people of a corrupted book' (the Jews and the Christians) for any clarification? It is either Allah or the Muslims are confused. I need you present hard evidence, and not gossip from your mosques, that the Torah and the Injil had been distorted at the time of Mohammed.

It is also intellectually dishonest for you to pick and chose, whatever suits for argument, the same book you claimed had been distorted. The Torah and the Injil are not hadith (rumours and gossips) where you chose what you like, like a basket of tomato.

What's the issue if I chose to call it the Bible or Torah and the Injil. Do you want to make another issue using semantics? The information is clear, don't hold onto a strawman please.

Which fake cardinal declared Mohammed as a prophet. That person need to resign from his cardinalship; he is as fake as Mohammed himself. Provide an official document from the papacy, the Catholic church, that recognized the prophethood of Mohammed and not a random guy who no one can easily identify.

You called my points that highlited what happened in Mecca, upon Mohammed's return, as a fake news. Then you must accept the fact that sunnah Abu Dawud is a fake hadith and seerah rasool Allah by ibn Ishaq is also fake. You you say this in Saudi Arabia, 'walahi', they will throw you inside jail for blasphemy. These are the names of the 5 people Mohammed killed, upon his return from Medina: See hadith below:

It was narrated from Mus'ab bin Sa'd that his father said:
"On the day of the Conquest of Makkah, the Messenger of Allah [SAW] granted amnesty to the people, except four men and two women. He said: 'Kill them, even if you find them clinging to the covers of Ka'bah.' (They were) 'Ikrimah bin Abi Jahl, 'Abdullah bin Khatal, Miqyas bin Subabah and 'Abdullah bin Sa'd bin Abi As-Sarh. 'Abdullah bin Khatl was caught while he was clinging to the covers of Ka'bah. Sa'eed bin Huraith and 'Ammar bin Yasir both rushed toward him, but Sa'eed, who was the younger of the two, got there before 'Ammar, and he killed him. Miqyas bin Subabah was caught by the people in the marketplace, and they killed him. 'Ikrimah traveled by sea, and he was caught in a storm. The crew of the ship said: 'Turn sincerely toward Allah, for your (false) gods cannot help you at all in this situation.' 'Ikrimah said: 'By Allah, if nothing came to save me at sea except sincerity toward Allah then nothing else will save me on land. O Allah, I promise You that if You save me from this predicament I will go to Muhammad [SAW] and put my hand in his, and I am sure that I will find him generous and forgiving.' So he came, and accepted Islam....(source: : Sunan an-Nasa'i hadith number 4067).

On your last point, I won't go searching for people's surnames, the alleged writers of the gospels. It is an irrelevant and a diversionary tactics I usually entertain from you. A'int gonna play that game with ya bro!

sagenaija:
Sunan Abu Dawud

Book 38, Number 4434

Narrated Abdullah Ibn Umar:

A group of Jews came and invited the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) to Quff. So he visited them in their school.

They said: AbulQasim, one of our men has committed fornication with a woman; so pronounce judgment upon them.

They placed a cushion for the Apostle of Allah who sat on it and said: Bring the Torah. It was then brought. He then withdrew the cushion from beneath him and placed the Torah on it saying: I believed in thee and in Him who revealed thee.

true2god:
More references:

Baidawi (died 1286) writes:
“‘To me it has been revealed’, when naught has been revealed to him” refers to `Abdallah Ibn Sa`d Ibn Abi Sarh, who used to write for God’s messenger. The verse (23:12) that says, “We created man of an extraction of clay” was revealed, and when Muhammad reached the part that says, “… thereafter We produced him as another creature (23:14), `Abdallah said, “So blessed be God the fairest of creators!” in amazement at the details of man’s creation. The prophet said, “Write it down; for thus it has been revealed.” `Abdallah doubted and said, “If Muhammad is truthful then I receive the revelation as much as he does, and if he is a liar, what I said is a good as what he said.” (Tafsir Anwar al-Tanzil wa Asrar al-Ta’wil [by Abdallah ibn Umar Al-Baidawi])

Ibn Al Athir (1160-1233 AD) writes:
He converted to Islam before the conquest of Mecca and immigrated to the Prophet(P) [i.e. in Medina]. He used to record the revelation for the Prophet(P) before he apostatized and went back to Mecca. Then he told Quraysh: ‘I used to orient Muhammad wherever I willed, he dictated to me “All-Powerful All-Wise” and I suggest “All Knowing All-Wise” so he would say: “Yes, it is all the same.” (Ibn al-Athîr, Usûd Ulghâbah fî Ma’rifat Is-Sahâbah, 1995, Dâr al-Fikr, Beruit (Lebanon), Volume 3, p. 154)

true2god:
Good morning bro, hope you have eaten so well this morning before starting your 'fasting'. That's a good strategy.

Back to the business at hand. you said the Bible of today is not the Bible of Mohammed's time, that's OK

. Can you please show us the Bible Mohammed was talking about,

that he asked you guys to use as a reference? I am 1000% sure that no Muslim has it because the lie (the Bible is distorted) must be maintained to valid to Quran. The Quran contradicts the Bible hence Muslims must find an easy way out by condemning the Bible to give Quran its validity.

You quoted an ayah to make your point as read below:

So woe unto those who write (present tense) the book (Quran) with their hands, then say, “This is from God,” that they may sell it for a paltry price. So woe unto them for what their hands have written and woe unto them for what they earn.

Take a look that ayah, it says 'who write' (not wrote) to confirm that it is a present (continuous) tense. The Torah and the jnjil had been completely written over 500 years before Mohammed was born. No one was writing any Torah and the Injil at the time of Mohammed; what was being written is your own Quran.

I have told you the reason why this ayah was revealed but Muslims will always stubbornly want to pin all the inadequacies of their scriptures on the Bible. 'Kilode gan!' (what's it!). You are a student of Islamic studies and I want to believe you are aware that Mohammed was an illiterate man hence he employed the services of secretaries to do the writings of the Quran for him while he dictated. And among the secretaries he employed, in Medina, was Abdullah ibn Saar, the half brother of Uthman ibn Affan (the 3rd rightly guided khalifa). The ayah was referring to him because he used to manufacture his own words into the Quran and Mohammed will concur. He therefore reasoned that Mohammed can never be a prophet and the Quran was not from any Allah hence he left Islam and went back to Mecca to tell the Meccans that Mohammed was fake.

When Mohammed conquered Mecca, he marked 6 people to be killed even if they are found in the cotton of kabba and among them is Abdullah ibn Saar. While other five people (3 men and 2 women) were brutality murdered, Uthman ibn Affan hid Abdullah ibn Saar for about 3 months, so that the situation of things could calm, he then presented him to Mohammed to seek his forgiveness and equally pay allegiance (the shahada) to Mohammed. Mohammed initially declined but accept his allegiance but reluctantly did in order not to upset one of his strongest generals, Uthman ibn Affan. He (Mohammed) however berated his body guards and asked them why they did not strike his neck when he refused his allegiance in the first place. Read references below, they are all Islamic sources.

(Sirat Rasul Allah by Ibn Ishaq, page. 550,
Tabaqat Al-Kabir, page. 174,
Sunnah Abu Dawud 14:2677,
Sunnah Abu Dawud 38:4345,
Sunnah Abu Dawud 38:4346,
Mazda Publishers, Costa Mesa, CA 1994], pp. 98-99).All the materials listed above can be found in your Islamic stores and were written by your fellow Muslims. Sunnah Abu Dawud is a hadith graded as sahih and it has a multiple chains of narrations to support this fact. Your earliest biographer of Mohammed, Ibn Ishaq, also wrote about this incident.

So the verse you wanna pin on Christians was actually talking about some of Mohammed's companions who were doctoring what he was dictating and the incident was presented as a present tense (write) which shows that there was a work in progress in the writing of the book. Be logical bro so that you don't follow the large Islamic bandwagon that keep telling lies concerning your scriptures.

true2god:
I am seriously honoured that people are mentioning my names in their private discussion, that's a good sign and it equally shows that many do acknowledge my contributions on NL. I challenged your local heavy weight champion, Mallam Ustaz Adepoju of ACADIP, for a debate but he ran away. My student, on November 7, 2018 in Ladi-lak bariga, Lagos, asked him some simple questions and he was dazed and confused all to the embarrassment of his audience.

Thank you once more for mentioning me in your private chats, it is good thing.

sagenaija:
Emp.iree, It's amazing how you put forward your Islamic 'logic' in your arguments.

The Issue of the Lord's prayer and your Fathia are not on the same level.

In the case of the Lord's prayer Jesus WAS ASKED DIRECTLY by the disciples to teach them to pray.
He then gave them the model prayer.

In the case of the Koran it is Allah that is said to make the declarations directly. NOTHING THERE points to Allah saying 'When you pray say it like this. Any allusion to the claim that Allah is teaching Moslems how to pray is a CONTORTION of modern day Mohammedans like yourself.

This is again a proof of the fact that the Koran which claims to be CLEAR is the opposite of such claim. If Allah cannot clearly say I am telling you to pray like this ....... And it has to take smart Moslems like yourself to bring it out that should tell you something is wrong somewhere.

Btw, hope your'e aware that "In the name of Allah ........" is repeated in other places in the Koran when it is not there in the original.

At the end of the day what you guys are doing is to try and make the Koran mean what you want. You also want to use Biblical standards to re-interpret your Koran. Unfortunately your 'scholars' will always expose you.

tintingz:
[code][/code]
He pulled a strawman and fallacious argument.

tintingz:
it's quite interesting but not that intellectual. I've watched many debates, this doesn't come close.

tintingz:
The moderation of that debate is poor. I've watched many debates that are far better than this.

tintingz:
I'm so gonna watch this.

Hamza Tzortzis(Muslim) is intelligent, let me watch his argument.

tintingz:
Oops I'm disappointed at Hamza after watching his argument,

AlBaqir:
Here I'm not interested in going via a cyclic arguments with you. Continue fighting your soul/self perhaps your arrogance that still block your senses might be removed.

true2god:
The Quran acknowledged the Torah and the Injil which shows that it was in circulation at the time of Mohammed

and I asked you to prove to me that the Torah and the Injeel are fraudulent, using your standard materials, the Quran and the hadith, even the seerah. Is this too difficult a request?

The truth is that you cannot use your Quran to condemn the Bible because Allah, in the Quran, acknowledged it as 'his' words (tho the Christians and the Jews do not recognise Allah). It is Muslims who manufacture lies to invalidate the Bible and Allah must be angry with you guys.

Muslims always disobey Allah in order to diminish the Jews and the Christians. Hear Allah told you;

Q:10:94 - So if you - [O Arab Messenger] - are in doubt, about that which We have revealed to you [O Arab Messenger], then ask those who have been reading the Book from before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

true2god:
Which previous post are you talking about? If you are sure it had bee. discussed, just provide the link and stop this your old tactics of saying 'the issue has been tackled' in order to escape from an issue.

According to Muslims, all the words in the Quran are words of Allah from A to Z. It does not contain any word of a mortal man. Well let's look at your sura al-fathiha (Quran 1:1-7):

"In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
The Beneficent, the Merciful:
Owner of the Day of Judgment,
Thee (alone) we worship; Thee alone we ask for help.
Show us the straight path,
The path of those whom Thou hast favored;
Not (the path) of those who earn Thine anger nor of those who go astray."

My analysis:

Since the Quran is the alleged words of Allah, so Allah started in surah by praising himself:

"In the name of Allah, the Beneficent, the Merciful.
Praise be to Allah, Lord of the Worlds,
The Beneficent, the Merciful:
Owner of the Day of Judgment,'

Allah again said: 'Thee (alone) we worship; Thee alone we ask for help'. Allah worshipped Allah and sought help from Allah.

Allah said again: 'show us the straight path (Islam), the path of those whom thou hast flavoured (Muslims), not the path of those who earned your anger (the Jews) or of those who go astray (the Christians).

You have really tried to deceive yourself that Allah was the one speaking in surah al-fathiha, but you cannot deceive me. Surah al-fathiha is not the words of any Allah but the prayers of one of the early caliphs added to the Quran as the pre-amble, the opener. Do your independent research with an open mind and you will see that you have been brainwashed to believe a lie.

A simple knowledge of grammar will tell you that surah al-fathiha is a supplication Muslim recite to a higher power which Muslims fraudulently included in the Quran instead of opening the Quran with the real beginning of the alleged revelation, which is surah 96.

true2god:
Show me this 'proof' using the Quran and the hadith (your standard source material).

true2god:
@ Em.pire, you can watch this video with an open mind. Both men are Muslims having a very honest discussion about Islam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5gsXw7gzaAo

true2god:
As for your answer, if Allah revealed surah 96 first, why did uthman Ibn Affan (the man that compiled the quran) not make it the first surah of the Quran? If the surah of the Quran can be arranged randomly, without considering the sequence of event, what confident do you have in a book that lacks basic 'organizational structuring'? The quran, because of this problem, is to be recited because it won't make any logical sense reading it as a result of how the surah and the ayah were arranged. I nearly have a serious headache while reading the Qur'an because it was poorly written and badly arranged. All the books by Prof. Wole Soyinka are all 10000% organized than your Quran. Pick up Wole Soyinka's novel and pick up the Quran, read both side by side and see which makes more sense.

Take away pack, who spoke in surah al-fathiha?

true2god:
Clap for yourself for choosing a more convenient one to answer. You have however refused to answer the 'koko', that is who spoke in surah al-fathiha.

As for your answer, if Allah revealed surah 96 first, why did uthman Ibn Affan (the man that compiled the quran) not make it the first surah of the Quran? If the surah of the Quran can be arranged randomly, without considering the sequence of event, what confident do you have in a book that lacks basic 'organizational structuring'? The quran, because of this problem, is to be recited because it won't make any logical sense reading it as a result of how the surah and the ayah were arranged. I nearly have a serious headache while reading the Qur'an because it was poorly written and badly arranged. All the books by Prof. Wole Soyinka are all 10000% organized than your Quran. Pick up Wole Soyinka's novel and pick up the Quran, read both side by side and see which makes more sense.

Take away pack, who spoke in surah al-fathiha?

This arrangement was for the period when it was being revealed

Once it was fully revealed, then it it was destined to be guidence for humanity till day of judgement

وَلَقَدْ آتَيْنَاكَ سَبْعًا مِنَ الْمَثَانِي وَالْقُرْآنَ الْعَظِيمَ

We have given thee seven of the oft-repeated (verses) and the great Qur'an.

Al Quran 15.87

Surah fatiha is a application form for a divine course

Course starts from surah baqarah and ends at surah waqia

From surah Hadid to surah tahrim, synopsis of the course

From surah mulk to surah Nas appendices

What a wonderful arrangement

sapientia:
Am not sick sir, but you are talking about the translation to English.

If the Quoran is translated to English, does it make it the official date of coming into existence?

Christianity predates Islam so am still asking you how your request could have been possible.

By the Time the last apostles died, it took another four centuries for Mohammed to be born.

sagenaija:
You are showing more and more who you are.

You came into a thread, contributed and asked questions then suddenly you don't want to 'BOTHER' yourself to respond to a simple question:

" who spoke in surah al-fathiha (Quran 1:1-7)? Second exercise, which of the surah is meant to come first, surah 1 or surah 96?"

There is nothing wrong in simply admitting 'I don't know'
You need not try to present yourself as a know-it-all.

sagenaija:
Looks like you are afraid to answer the question.
Perhaps it will expose your underbelly.
A simple question and you are unable to answer?

sapientia:
But every portion of the Bible have been written before Mohammed was born.

So how could the writers have done it?

true2god:
Simple exercise, who spoke in surah al-fathiha (Quran 1:1-7)? Second exercise, which of the surah is meant to come first, surah 1 or surah 96?

sapientia:
But every portion of the Bible have been written before Mohammed was born.

So how could the writers have done it?

true2god:
It seems every Muslim has his own 'sunnah' of the prophet. My neighbours, everyday, wake up 4:30am to eat 'sari' and by 5;30am they are through. They eat well, I mean to full capacity, to take them till evening while they whine during the day saying 'awe tin gbomi' (I am being weakened by today's fasting), 'maa yomi lenu jare, mo n gbawe' (stop disturbing me because I am fasting), and some other clownish excuses.

There is no issue making an official announcement for the commencement of ramadan, the issue is the daily clowning by Muslims that they are fasting as if someone forced them to.

true2god:
Blocking public roads is a problem associates with Islam worldwide and most western countries have to enact laws to address this public nuisance. Drawing redeem church into this argument shows that you guys are not ready to address this social problem.

The Bhudist and the Hindus also bow down while worshipping their gods hence they are equally closer to the truth, according to your logic. Even Ifa priest also bow their heads to Ifa, and so what's your point?

As for going to Jerusalem or mecca for pilgrimage, it is for business (for the transport agents) and brainwashing for the people wasting their money going there. If God won't answer your prayer in Nigeria he won't still answer even if you go to Mecca, connect to Medina and take the next flight to Jerusalem, God will not answer. God is not limited to time, space or distance.

If you have any plan going to Mecca, don't waste it bro. Look around and use the money to help the poor and the needy around you and God will bless your generation for that. Stop enriching the airline companies and the agents in the name of 'pilgrimage'. Black people should have sense.

true2god:
Why does Muslim take delight in blocking public road when doing sollat?

As par the second picture, the Celestial church of Christ picture, that's how the bow in worship in all denominations in Nigeria day-in-day-out. Have you visited their church before to confirm. Stop being economical with the truth to make a point.

Besides, Christians do not attach much importance to Jerusalem the same way Muslims do to mecca; Muslims have set up, as a center of their religious, a place which formerly hosted about 360 idols (now remains one), as a qibla for prayer.

So going to Jerusalem and mecca is both a waste of time and money. Most of the most corrupt Muslim leaders always meet in mecca to discuss their next political steps. You and I know this as fact.