₦airaland Forum

TerraCotta: That's where we disagree. Two sentences from 1935 is proof that Jeffreys recorded a claim to Igala ancestry (I will leave out his dissertation references since we don't have easy online access to it). The argument isn't whether or not Nri truly was derived from Igala. That's beyond the point of this discussion. You seem to be saying that Jeffreys made this claim up arbitrarily (why not Jukun? Ife? Benin?) and didn't actually ask Nri residents of the 1930s where they thought their culture came from. Considering the useful and specific information he provided on Nri coronations, scarifications and religions, I tend to believe that he did ask and recorded a claim that he heard. That doesn't make it true that Nri was somehow an outpost of Igala, since claims aren't proof of reality as Physics and I have established in the other discussion on the thread. All we establish--if we believe Jeffreys and I have no reason not to--is that people in Nri claimed Igala ancestry when he spoke to them.

Why not Ife, Benin or Jukun? Right after the claim that Nri traditions claim they came from the ruling stock of the Igala, Jeffreys implies that kingship among the Igala, Yoruba, and Igbo come from the Jukun. After that he claims these cultures are "uniform". We've already seen that Jeffreys is biased towards diffusionism. I've been saying that the claim may be a misinterpretation, not that it was made up. The claim fits well with the history according to Nri people that one of Eri's children helped found Idah, which the Nri say they are connected to and through ritual journeys by Nri people to Idah. I haven't read any modern source that implies that this claim indicates that the Nri claimed descent from Idah.

TerraCotta: Two sentences from 1935 is proof that Jeffreys recorded a claim to Igala ancestry (I will leave out his dissertation references since we don't have easy online access to it).

This isn't proof that the Nri claimed descent from the Igala. You can reference the dissertation if you have it.

TerraCotta: I don't think current differences in language, religion, rituals and tradition invalidate the possibility of a link. You raise good reasons to be skeptical about the claim, but you don't recognize any of the possibilities that explain the claim--ie, the Nri found Igala to be the most prestigious nearby culture they had knowledge of (perhaps through the Onoja Oboni interactions) and wanted to show some affinity to them when the colonial officials came asking about their culture. That type of exaggerated affiliation is the core of my discussion with Phsyics.

All this is referring to a claim we cannot verify because we don't have anything from the Nri themselves that would be enough to analyse the politics of that era. We need to have a basis to reach a conclusion. Jeffreys claims would not be published by objective sources as absolute proof that the Nri once claimed descent from the Igala.

TerraCotta: There's a subtle difference in the two ideas. Jeffreys interpretes Chukwu as a sun-god (or a sky-being later on; the difference seems semantic to me) and also guesses that Nri culture, like Jukun, Bini, Yoruba etc are ultimately derived from Egypt. Those are his (probably wrong) interpretations and he does not seem to credit the Nri for giving him those conclusions. When he says "Umundri traditions is that they come from the ruling stock of the Igala", he clearly attributes that to first-hand data he was told--like the meanings of the ichi, for instance--and not his own speculation or theory.

No there isn't a subtle difference between Chukwu, the ultimate being, and Anyanwu the actual sun deity that Nri people venerate. Semantic difference only goes to show that things can be easily misinterpreted. Semantic or not, You can't misrepresent the actual sun deity of a culture that places much emphasis on the sun by completely confusing it with another concept. That's why Jeffrey's notes the "imperfect state of our knowledge of West Africa".

TerraCotta: Those are his (probably wrong) interpretations and he does not seem to credit the Nri for giving him those conclusions.

So how did he work out what Chukwu was if it wasn't from Nri information?

TerraCotta: When he says "Umundri traditions is that they come from the ruling stock of the Igala", he clearly attributes that to first-hand data he was told--like the meanings of the ichi, for instance--and not his own speculation or theory.

Here's the full 'sun-god' quote: "The descendants of the royal families live in Aguku and claim ancestry from a sky-being called Eri, sent down by Chiuku, a sun-god." So he does apparently get his sun-god claim from "The descendants of the royal families". Misinterpretation again. Even if this quote wasn't available, it can't be a theory.

TerraCotta: Onwuejeogwu is pretty much the only source, but why are you ignoring his claim that there were regular 80-100 year reigns in Nri in order to match the Igbo-Ukwu radiocarbon dates? It makes his other claims a little less credible, I think. It's funny that you bring up Douglas Chambers though; he is a decent scholar (some problems with his work have been discussed by David Northrup in 'Igbo and Myth Igbo' which is worth reading) but he certainly wouldn't claim any expertise in Nri history or anthropology since his interest in Igbo participation in the slave trade and African diaspora. Chambers wrote an essay in the book I've already mentioned ("Identity In the Shadow of Slavery" containing the Sandra Greene essay on Anlo-Ewe and Yoruba connections) and has this to say about Nri:

That suggests to me that he's skeptical of the Igbo-Ukwu connection to the current Nri culture based on the likely founding date in the 14th century. The only scholars he cites for evidence that the current Nri kinglists was contemporary with the Igbo-Ukwu bronze works is ... Onwuejeogwu (and Afigbo, who cites ... Onwuejeogwu).

If I were ignoring the lengtth of the reigns, I wouldn't have brougt chambers in. He has gone into more detail on Nri in Murder at Montpelier: Igbo Africans in Virginia (written 5 years after Identity In the Shadow of Slavery and with much more research on Nri) where he places the start at 1225. This date makes no difference to the point that the Nri kingdom existed before the Igala. The fact that Nri apparently came after Igbo Ukwu doesn't negate any link between the founders of Nri and Igbo Ukwu, in fact it provides evidence that the development of Nri started in the Igbo Ukwu site at least 1100 years ago.

TerraCotta: Alright--this is a pretty detailed response that I didn't have time to complete during the week. However, it's the weekend and I pulled together some sources so we'd be having a discussion about stuff we can reference instead of pure speculation. I may be off on one or two of these since some citations were things I read years ago. I'm also not a professional scholar by any means--I make a living in a less intellectually stimulating/more typically "Naija" field (in some ways) sadly--so I'd caution again that much of this stuff is from my conclusions having reading a good deal of material and developing a strong basis for comparative analyses. This is obviously a major interest of mine outside my 9-to-5.

Ezeagu


Some of the most problematic information from Onwuejeogwu is precisely because of his acceptance of these kinglists. I find it hard to accept regular 80-90 year reigns as historical realities. I'm also not sure why the Aro groups would be primary evidence for the age of Nri's foundation in the 10th century since, as you suggest, their emergence is commonly dated to the 17th century and they claim Ekoi/Ibibio ancestry and cultural affinities along with their Igbo heritage.

You also seem to imply here that I believe the Igala kingdom is truly the source of Nri; there's some suggestive evidence of this but I'm not claiming it as fact and it's not the central point of my argument. What's important is that the Nri themselves presented their ancestry as Igala to researchers in the 1930s. Again, if the evidence from these same researchers in the 1930s through 1950s and the conclusions of other modern scholars don't convince you, there's no harm in that. It does say something about what they consider a prestigious ancestry at that point in time and feeds into what I'll write below about the uses of court propaganda.

This is misleading, there's no proof that the Nri ever claimed Igala descent. Two sentences from 1930 and a reference to a 'common ancestry' isn't proof. Jeffrey's claims that Chukwu is a sun-god is not proof that Chukwu is a sun god (they are not). There's also a silence on the Igala claim on Nri. Where are their stories? Where is Nri's stories about Igala descent? I don't know why these scanty claims are being taken as proof of anything. Such a link would form a strong bond between the two kingdoms. Igala raids on the Nri sphere of influence and lack of historical allegiances between the states also makes no sense with their theory. Their governmental systems are completely different, religion is different, language is different, rituals and traditions different. The Nri hardly even have a kingdom than a massive cult. All reference to an Igala source of Nri is in reference to Jefferys and Lawtons Nile-valley diffusionist claims, even by Umudiana nationalists. Again, you're using points from people who admittedly had "imperfect" knowledge of the subject.

Onwuejeogwu isn't the only source that has presented dating for a kings list, others (like Douglas Chambers) have moved Nri founding to the early 13th century, which still does not match the Igala source claim. The only chance this theory has is moving Eri's existence to after the 15th/16th century, again that means revising the date of settlement of every Nri settlement in the Niger Delta (including most of the major towns of northern Delta state) the average age of settlement being 1500 CE, and the entire history of the southern Benue trough itself. By the way, there's no denial of the Igala influence on Nri.

TerraCotta: I want to answer your questions but I also want to move on from this discussion because I think I've covered the topic in as much detail as I know.

The Ehret quote is what kicked off the discussion. Both Physics and I found his claim strange because it's a reversal of the known records on the topic from the colonial era. Nri informants at that time claimed that the Nri government/ritual system was derived from the Igala region. Again, this is what the Nri people said to anthropologists in the early 20th century (not just to Jeffreys, but JS Boston and other field anthropologists doing government research). It is not what the anthropologists thought or interpreted; it's the claim the Nri people made at the time. They could have had lots of reasons for doing so: perhaps it was another example of the prestige-by-association tactic practiced by other groups. Perhaps it was the truth, or perhaps it was a mix of traditions. We can't say for sure. What we know is that in the early 20th century, the Nri residents interviewed believed that their mythical ancestor came from Igala country. I don't think this is too controversial a claim since it is in virtually everything you read about the area at that time. In the early 21st century, it's a politically unpalatable claim, but it can't be ignored for that reason alone.

I've never encountered Ehret's claim that the Igala kings were from Nri and were crowned by Nri ritual experts in the 20th century in the historical record (until the claims of Onwuejeogwu and Afigbo etc, which I'll discuss shortly). It's important to give the historical order of the claims of origins, because as I've said, we see shifting claims of ancient pedigrees all over Africa in oral history, and they tend to reflect current political needs and not the facts about the past. It's a well-explored issue in West-Central Africa, we have the same issues with Oyo's Nupe and Borgu ancestry etc. It's hard to give details without going off the point but we can have this discussion separately if you want. If tomorrow, the Tiv claim to be ancestors of the Ijo and have kept that knowledge secret of thousands of years, we couldn't ignore the claim outright but we'd have to look at the known historical record and consider why they might make such a claim. I hope the Ijo and Tiv can forgive the analogy.

Here's the timeline as I know it. Michael Onwuejeogwu and his peers in the late 1960s into the 1970s started popularizing an ancient pedigree of Nri after the Igbo-Ukwu finds were dated by Thurston Shaw to 900-1000 AD period (not without some controversy, by the way, but they're generally accepted dates now and I don't want to go off another tangent). Shaw suggested Nri as a source of the culture that made the bronzes, the theory gained some popularity--perhaps because of the changing political prestige needs of the era?--and here we are today. Likewise, other claims about the involvement of Nri specialists in the coronation of Benin kings appeared, which also seems unsupported in the records. If you've got some records or information showing that the attah of Igala claimed Nri descent or was enthroned by Nri specialists that predate this period of myth reorganization during the 1970s, please share it. I've said repeatedly that Nri may ultimately prove to be the source of Igbo-Ukwu--that should be clear enough from my early posts. My point was the Nri earlier claimed to be of Igala ancestry, and they currently use some items of allegedly Igala design in their regalia, so they don't seem to be the most likely source to me. Nwaezeigwe points out that there are separate and indigenous groups in the area (which is obvious from the Eri myth in any version) and suggests that they might be connected to the Igbo-Ukwu producers. That makes sense. I suggested the Oka groups from my non-specialist point of view, which you seem to agree with now.

Is there evidence of Igbo interaction with Igala? Definitely. Most scholars today assume that the ikenga personal shrines to success you alluded to earlier were adopted from Igbo areas into Igala ones (as okega), Benin areas (as ikegobo), Urhobo (as ivri) etc. Some people see this as the mark of this Nri influence. Ikenga and the ideas around masculinity and achievement it represents are almost certainly derived from Igbo inspiration, but I would find it hard to associate this specifically with Nri, since ikenga and their focus on valour, warfare, headhunting and individual glory are completely opposed to all these claims of the Nri role as peaceful priest-kings with no armies etc. Ikenga are also a general Igbo cultural feature and aren't specifically linked to Nri in any way, as far as I'm aware. Much like Igbo-Ukwu, I think Ikenga has been conflated with Nri.

I think I addressed your other points in detail earlier.

There were no interviews (shown here) from the 30s or later/earlier that had Nri people quoted as saying they or Eri came from anywhere but Chukwu, Jeffreys in his 'Divine' article doesn't mention Eri anymore after this:

"The descendants of the royal families live in Aguku and claim ancestry from a sky-being called Eri, sent down by Chiuku, a sun-god. These descendants call themselves Umundri, the children of Ndri, the youngest of the four sons of Eri and their first divine king."

No reference to any place or people on earth. Jeffreys was biased towards a common origin of the Igbo, Igala, Yoruba, Jukun, so it's understandable that he would use the "ruling stock" line without any reference (like Onoja Oboni). There are also no references to an Eri-Igala link at that time, so if there was a claim by the Nri that they were from Idah (which there wasn't) then it would have been so by reference to Eri. None of these claims (made by outsiders) ever mention Eri, if Eri was an Igala warrior as Nwaezeigwe claimed, how is this important information completely missing from any interview or any of the earlier claims? "Secondly, the claims by the Umueri clan to a right to crown the Atah of Igala, and the latter's claims of the right to confer titles on the neighbouring Igbo towns contributed to Jeffrey's conclusions. It is clear, however, that Jeffrey's conclusions were influenced by the diffusionist theories that were fashionable at the time." Edward Harland Duckworth (1984). [Link]

There are also no claims that Nri regalia is of Igala origin. That's in reference to comparison made between the bronze masks worn on both the Attah and Eze Nri's chests, and also from Jeffreys observation that Nri coronation involved "Igala clothes" (which really doesn't support anything). "bronze pectroal mask presently worn by Eze Nri of Oreri and Ata of Igala) suggest interactions between the Igbo and the Igala in the past." [link]

There were no informants about Nri origin (other than the 'myth') otherwise it would have been quoted on this thread. The Igala claim (by Dr. M.D.W. Jeffreys and Mr. G. J. Lawton), like Ehrets, was vague, only difference is that Ehret went on to elaborate a bit more about Igala-Nri coronations. I am not claiming that Ehret was right, I am giving an example of how things can be interpreted wrongly by people who have spent months/years studying a people, especially when they have an agenda (proving diffusion). It doesn't help when none of these claims are backed by an actual interview on either side or any recent admittance of it. It's also awkward that Jeffreys and Lawton completely ignore Eri when they made their claims. Today the Umuezechima ruling clan of Onitsha still claim descent from Benin, so also do Igbo communities of Igala origin claim their Igala ancestry.

TerraCotta: I think you missed this point in my post. The myth that credits the planting of heads/first yams to Eri--not Nri--is an alternative version recorded by Onwuejeogwu. The link to the citation is underneath the quote in my previous post. I'm not confused and I doubt Onwuejeogwu is either; it's yet another example of how inconsistent myths are and why they shouldn't be relied on as an exact history. They tell us more about general ideals (the coming of agriculture and establishment of rituals) than specific people and personalities (Eri, Nri etc. who may or may not have existed).

"Nri people believe that all forms of production were introduced and authorized by Eze Nri. The validation for production was derived from the body of religious 'mythology' that Nri people disseminated in one form or another in most Igbo settlements in the past. In this way they were able to control the religious aspect of production.

There was famine. Eze Nri called on Chukwu for food. Chukwu said: "Offer your first son and first daughter." They were made Ichi marks. They were offered to Chukwu. After twelve days, On the grave of the son, Grew yam and palm oil. On the grave of the daughter, Grew cocoyam and maize and vegetable. Chukwu said: "Distribute all these to all Igbo And receive tribute from them".' Onwuejeogwu (1981)

TerraCotta: Also--you misrepresented Nwaezeigwe on the Igala issue. He obviously believes that the current Nri lineage is from the Igala area (whether from the attah's line etc is another issue) and says that several times during the paper. He does identify an indigenous Umudiana group as the earliest settlers. I've discussed earlier on in this thread how helpful that information is. Igala origins at Nri are, once again, not my theory or anyone else's--they are the records we have from colonial interviews with residents of Nri.

Nwaezeigwe was clear that the Eze-ship of Nri is an institution of the Umudiana and that the 'Igala-Nri' somehow appropriated it. The whole discussion on this thread concerns the origin of Nri kingship and especially how that relates to Igbo-Ukwu. Nwaezeigwe, in my opinion, is trying to delegitimise the current Nri communities by claiming that they do not have an ancestral stake in Nri. Nwaezeigwe is partial towards the Umudiana (not the first comments he's made about the issue) and he makes a lot of uncertain claims and uses a lot of words like "definitely" too much.

Again, too much credit has been given to records made by people who admittedly had an "imperfect understanding" of these societies. Ehret himself made a record. There are a lot of claims that were made during those times that could be used to claim a lot of things. These writers were helpful in recording some things that may have been lost forever, but they are in no way the official scribes of West African history. I don't take colonial/missionary writing too seriously until they can be validated, maybe that's the problem. The point is, there is no solid evidence that the Nri kingdom is of Igala ancestry and there are no recorded claims by the Nri that their kingship is of Igala descent, the same is with the opposite.

All this does not consider the dating of the Nri kings list relevant to Eri's age of origin vs. the Igala kingdoms age, the age of Nri settlements all over the Niger River Delta like Ogwanshi-Ukwu, Igbuzor, Owa on the Western side of the river, and people of Nri descent and Nri influence like that of the Aro confederacy which rose in the 1600s.

This 'traditional movie' done in Igbo does not contain one English word.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RZIMatM6wU4

TerraCotta: "Just when I thought I was out, they.keep.pulling.me.back.in!"

http://m.youtube.com/#/watch?v=UPw-3e_pzqU&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DUPw-3e_pzqU

I've got some other stuff I want to talk about that's more related to the thread topic ("Maps of Kingdoms, Peoples, States and Cities in Africa Through Time" ) but first, a thorough (hopefully final?) response to the Nri questions. This will be a long one:



Like the old cliche goes, you're entitled to your own beliefs but not your own facts. Jeffreys wrote dozens of articles on the Nri religion, political system, symbolism etc. He specifically says there are four ruling families (reduced to three) and goes into long, explicit anthropological detail about the coronation ceremonies for an eze Nri. Why would someone who's spent much more time than us (I'm assuming you've studied Nri using Jeffreys' materials) studying this system firsthand all of a sudden mistake Igala for Igbo? If he doesn't name the families to your satisfaction, that's an approrpiate criticism, but the man was writing about what he saw and in a fair amount of detail as well. We can't discount that just because it doesn't fit conveniently into someone's beliefs. We have to have a reason to disbelieve or reinterpret eyewitness accounts. So far you haven't provided one. This is a minor point to me. It only suggests one possible point of connection between Igala and Nri. In fact, there are numerous of other links that are much harder to dispute.

Jeffreys and other historians and anthropologists (including Dr. Nwaezeigwe of UNN) have concluded that Nri culture has a strong Igala element. That upsets the folk mythology and fantastic village legends that some people hold dear, but it's important to give the evidence in detail so there's a sufficient amount of proof for casual readers to follow the argument:

Since this relates directly, what then is your reasoning for disbelieving Christopher Ehrets claim that "the kings of the Igala claimed descent from the Nri of Igbo-Ukwu, and they continued to be enthroned by Nri ritual experts right down to the early twentieth century."?

This is not the only person that claims Nri-Igala coronations by the way.

TerraCotta: The Nri "royal" families

Jeffreys article is clear enough for anyone who can read it. For anyone who doesn't have access, I'll quote some excerpts and you can make up your own minds:

He adds some speculation about Nri links to other Nigerian cultures, which perhaps is the source of anxiety about this relatively straightforward concept on Nairaland. The statements above are detailed and clear enough for anyone to read and decide what you will. Jeffreys isn't done though; he wrote even more detailed descriptions about the coronation ceremony of Nri, the patterns of ichi markings (his illustrations are still the most consistently cited sources), and other invaluable cultural data. Again, he's not a perfect source. Few are. He may be completely wrong about the Igala ancestry in Nri; he's likely to be wrong about his Egyptian suggestions, for instance. The difference is that he's only reporting what the Nri told him about their Igala ancestry, not his personal opinion. He is speculating on his own about Egyptian ancestry and other fanciful theories later. The difference should be clear. I try to make it plain all the time in my posts too.

If the "Umundri tradition is that they come from the ruling stock of the Igala and are thus connected with the Atah of Idah" (In the way that it is being read) will place Eri after the 14th/15th century, which completely rubbishes any estimate of Nri's age and kings list, and we then have to re-calculate the age of Nri-related settlements like those in Delta State (Ogwashi, Igbuzo, Owa, etc).

My explanation for this interpretation of Nri history (because these things were interpreted and there's a difference between seeing and interpreting) is that Jeffreys was referring to the Onoja Oboni story of Nri which states Eri was the father of the Igala prince who went to live in his mothers native Igala land. Onwuejeogwu quotes John Boston (The Igala kingdom 1968) on the origin of one of the royal Igala families:

"The third group, holding the priestly title of Obajadaka, claims descent from Onoja Oboni, one of the protodynastic royal ancestors whose relationship to Ayagba is obscure. In the view of other members of the royal clan the first two groups are unquestionably of royal descent, but outside the mainstream of the ruling house. The third group's claims to royal ancestry are regarded as somewhat doubtful, in part because Onoja Oboni's own status is obscure, and there is one school of thought in the royal clan that regards him as an omonobule or uterine kinsman rather than a full member by agnatic descent."

TerraCotta: This is, sadly, too weak a response for me to pass up. You may need to reread Dr. Nwaezeigwe's paper. It's clearly-written, not overly academic and presents very convincing evidence that the current Nri system (dynasty?) is of Igala ancestry. Here's a link to the full thing and, again, some useful quotes for those who care:

http://xa.yimg.com/kq/groups/19709056/630751156/name/THE+POLITICS+OF+IGBO+ORIGIN+AND+CULTURE.pdf

Anyone who's interested in this topic should really read the paper. Thanks again to Physics for providing the title since I wasn't aware of it before then. As I said earlier, the professor is in agreement with the views of other writers I've read on this issue.

Yes, very convcing indeed, like when it says Eri is "definitely" of Igala descent or "if Eri is connected with the founding of Igbezunu village and the same village is characterized as Igala in Aguleri tradition, then it becomes obvious that Eri was never of an aboriginal Igbo identity, but Igala." Then he's quoted on the Umudiana Adama website, what a surprise.

By the way:

"In fact, it was in recognition of the primacy of settlement of the Umudiana people that the Umunri gave them the Igala title-name of Adama, which in Igala language and tradition means first-born or what the Igbo call Okpala. Even the institution of Eze-Nri, came into existence through the institutional inspiration of the aboriginal Igbo settlers, the Umudiana, who originally used the kingship as a means of servicing their rituo-economic needs. In this respect, the Eze-Nri was initially appointed by the Umudiana to over-see the activities ofthe Nri ritual agents, who in turn made returns to the Umudiana (Adama)."

Nwaezeigwe doesn't agree with your theory that Nri kingship is of Igala origin.

TerraCotta: I'm glad to see you're doing your own research and quoting Jeffreys' views now. I'm assuming you still think he confuses Igala and Nri though?

Yes I'm quoting because it isn't one obscure sentence that can be read in many ways.

TerraCotta: In any case, I cited the dispute between the interpretation of ichi as an example of how easily one version of mythical history can suppress other traditions. Many people believe that the marks represent the rays of the sun. Jeffreys agrees with this, but as diligent scholars, he and Yeatman do us the great favor of recording alternative traditions. Let's quote again:



Yeatman presents an interview, supplemented by information she's heard before, about the meaning of various ichi. The sun, moon and farming furrows aren't contradictory claims; the sun and the moon are on the forehead while the cheeks represent the rows of yams planted, which seems quite logical. The ndiichi themselves had forgotten the meaning but reject the idea that they represent rows of yams. Perhaps they're embarrassed by this in the modernizing 20th century? Perhaps they have another secret meaning they couldn't share with the missionary? We don't know. What we do now is that the footnote shows that she got the term from Nwora, an Nri village man who had these ichi marks. Jeffreys interpreted this as a taunt, as did some of the other men; whether they're right is hard to say since the men claim to have forgotten the meaning of the other marks. I'm speculating here (how can I say this more clearly, I wonder) but I think it makes sense that both interpretations are correct and represent the ritual logic of agriculture: the sun shines on crops to make them grow, and yam and cocoyam were the staple foods of the Nri culture (after a certain point). We'll see some evidence for why I'm suggesting this a little later.

The Nri men Yeatman interviewed denied the patterns being farm furrows for whatever reason, Jeffreys says is out of resentment. In any case, the Nri men claim that the Ichi marks (or at least the symbolism) comes before the yam/cocoyam myth. Anyway, the names for the patterns vary from community to community, like the Agbaja eagle wings. The accepted are the sun rays.

TerraCotta: That depends who you believe. Myths evolve and have multiple versions--the reasons for that is most of the fun of cultural research. Jeffreys says it was Nri who planted his children's heads to grow the first yams. Fine. Onwuejeogwu on the other hand--who you seem to trust more--quite clearly identifies Eri as the founder, as I wrote in that post.

You're confusing the myth. The myth is that Eri came down to the Anambra river and had children, his second son Nri (or Menri) moved away to establish an ideal community. It was on his journey that Chukwu taught the starving Nri the ritual. That's another funny thing about this discussion, the kingship itself is claimed to have began with Nri (or Nri Ifikuanim), not his father Eri. Nri was allegedly the (half) brother of Onoja who supposedly founded a dynasty in Igala land. Source? Onwuejeogwu, from the Keith ray source you provided.

TerraCotta: One more note: every single one of the myths about Eri/Nri etc I've cited refer to the active participation of the Awka/Oka smithing tradition we talked about earlier in "making the earth", and some even assume that the Oka smiths were here first. Jeffreys himself says the Oka artists were responsible for making the ichi marks in the past, which I'd forgotten that he mentioned. These signs point to the Oka area as a major site of early Igbo cultural development. I'll restate my speculation that they would be a very useful guide in where to look for the production of Igbo-Ukwu metalworking when future archaeologists and historians have the funds for all that. We see this same connection between metalworking, art production and ritual/political structures all over the related Nigerian cultures and in much of Africa.

I agree.

pleep: It does it Hausa... but for most of the other languages, i don't think so.

They have broken down to the point were it is practically immpossible to find someone who is a "master" of the language. For example; my mother is a native efick speaker but she never learned the Efik words for blue, green, orange or yellow, as they had been using the English version of these concepts since primary school.

The only people who use can their native language for all the concepts they know are usually stark illiterate and/or very old. The fact that they are uneducated makes language mastery impossible because that cannot truly be done without knowlege of writing.

I'm sure there are enough people who can speak Efik without using any unnecessary English words. Most of the times people do it because they are lazy and because English has a lot of influence in their lives.

For Igbo I know I have heard and seen many, including on TV, who can speak Igbo like it was 1915, and I would say they sounded eloquent. The man speaking on TV was actually abroad and he was in his 40s so it isn't always old and/or stark illiterate that can speak Nigerian languages best. For example Igbo movies have come back [See here] and they're doing a good job of filtering out as much English as they can, 70% of the casts of these films are under 40.

You don't need writing to master a language especially when language in general was developed well before writing.

Doesn't ze also mean being allergic or disgusted or even angered by something, or is that a different word/words?

TerraCotta: He quotes a missionary's interview with a native-born Nri woman who says the marks are also called "ogba ubi" (farming furrows) and then elaborates on the story about Eri planting the heads of his first-born children to grow the first yams, as mentioned above. Just an example of how a common belief or interpretation can have alternative explanations.

Okay, so, there are no four ruling families of Nri, that would mean that the various exogamous lineages in the Umunri communities are non-existant. Perhaps MDW Jeffreys was mistaking Igala for Igbo. The Nri are not dead, it was 1930 so these families couldn't have just disappeared. You can get the lineages from Onwuejeogwu, or you can just search online. There's still an Eze Nri. With a quick search of 'Igala ruling families' I've already found "Aj'Akwu, Aj'Ocholi, Ame'cho, and Aj'Akogu ruling houses". Despite all that, the role of Attah and Nri cannot even be compared even if there were equal amount of ruling families in both. So that's that.

The UNN write up is politics.

MDW Jeffreys already touched on the supposed farming furrows pattern in 1951 (The Winged Solar Disk or Ibo Itchi Facial Scarification, the same one referenced by Keith Ray), and he quoted an interview between a missionary named Miss Yeatman and an "Ndri" who denied that their facial marks were yam furrows and recounted the yam tale of how they had the patterns before the yam sprouted on earth. Miss Yeatman also got information about the sun and the moon pattern on mburuichi heads and they claimed "they were engraved on the face so that they might shine in the house and make it light", they also admitted forgetting what the marks on their cheeks represented. The differing patterns were insisted by Nri that they remain different from community to community, many of the styles have names from the wings of birds like the eagle (although MDW Jeffrey interpreted ugo as 'sacred vulture'), but the two marks on the forehead were named onwa and anwu (moon and sun). MDW Jeffreys opinion is that 'yam furrows' is a taunt by non-mburuichi (or "ichi" as it was called) which was not accepted by the mburuichi.

Eri was not the one that planted his son and daughters heads, it was his son Nri.

TerraCotta: 2) You're wrong in claiming that Nri is not a hereditary kingship and demonstrates differences from the Idah system. In fact, Nri rotated its kingship around four noble families, just like the Idah kingship. We are fortunate enough to know this because it was detailed by MDW Jeffreys in his article "The Divine Umundri King" in 1935. Jeffreys is an important writer on Igbo anthropology--he was a forerunner in spelling the ethnonym as 'Igbo', rather than 'Ibo' for example. It's a notable quality that shows his interest in details. You should read this article if you haven't already.

Jeffreys goes on to link Igbo culture with Nile-valley civilisations through similarity in sun-veneration and sun-cults. Relying on an article from the 1930s isn't advisable. There are major errors throughout the writing, Jeffreys claims Chukwu to be a sun-god, Jeffreys claims that the Nri people are responsible for the majority of the Igbo culture, and then there's the claim that the Igala, Edo, Igbo, etc have a uniform culture based on cultural/ritual similarities. Jeffreys is an interesting source and useful for names, but it isn't something to rely on.

The actual "royal families" being referenced in that 1935 article are either the four quarters of Agukwu-Nri, or the communities of Umunri. Since he did not explain or give a name for these "four (or three) royal families" then no one can say for sure what this actually meant. There is also a lack of other sources for these supposed royal families (if this isn't in reference to the Umunri communities), and there are further question like from what Umunri community do these families hail? What is their origin? What is their relation to the rest of the Umunri lineage?

On the other hand you could say the Umunri are the royal lineage and that the various communities are the sources for kingship, but to say "Nri rotated its kingship around four noble families, just like the Idah kingship" is not true, because there's no evidence of this ever happening. Nri kings were solely chosen through the consultation of ancestral spirits, as I'm sure is somewhat the case of Igala kingship, to a lesser extent, but in no way the same. What I meant by 'no hereditary kingship' was that there is no evidence that kingship was passed from father to son in Nri communities, or even close relatives, while that is often the case in Igala society.

TerraCotta: All conjecture. Since you don't provide any sources or references for this speculation (is this oral history? Website copy? Distilled from Onwuejeogwu's works?), there's no way for me to critically assess them and no real benefit I can see in speculating on how it relates to Igala 'historical sociological development' (I think you mean 'religion' here). "Sun veneration" is general enough to be applicable to many non-Judeo-Christian religions, for obvious reasons. If you're referring to ichi scarification as depicting rays of the sun/anyawu, there's also a historical understanding that the scarification represent the hoeing of the earth a farmer does to plant yams. This may well be linked to Eri's role as someone who planted the heads of his children from which the first yams grew, according to the myth I remember. I don't have time to pull out the sources right now but I'll dig them out if there's enough interest in this ater.

'Historical sociological development' is referring to the fact that there is no major sun-cult among the Igala. Most of the information in that paragraph is introductory information on Nri. Jeffreys himself wrote an article in 1951 on Ichi (in which Chukwu turned from a sun-god in his 1935 article to a sky-being) and noted the names for the sections of the scarifications which included the Igbo names onwa and anwu, 'moon' and 'sun'. According to him, the scarification represented the bearing of the moon and the sun on initiated Umunri mburuichi's heads, and then what followed was more Nile-valley propaganda. bla bla.

TerraCotta: I didn't say the classification of Igbo-Ukwu as part of the Nri culture area was lazy. I don't want to imply it either. You'll see in my post that I say several times that the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes may very well be Nri productions. I'm not a specialist in this field and I'd defer to them (after I've examined the evidence with customary skepticism and my own sources of reference). The fact that some Nri figures bear scarifications that are currently associated with ichi is interesting but inconclusive. You can't rely solely on contemporary evidence to explain past patterns and behavior. What if the contemporary ichi were adopted to imitate whatever culture/people that created Igbo-Ukwu? What if the ichi cicatrizations have evolved over time to mean something completely different by the time they enter the verifiable historical record? We can't divine answers easily just by looking at the depiction of something today and extrapolating vast histories from a glance. Otherwise, we'd all know that Jesus was a blonde, Louisiana was settled by English-speaking immigrants and Nigerians have always eaten Jollof rice as their national dish.

I'm familiar with the images you quoted. You said you didn't know the source, but its actually reproduced in the Keith Ray essay I mentioned earlier. You can see it for yourself if you do a Google Books search. The funny thing is that I'd spent some time several years ago on Nairaland talking to some people about the existence and meaning of ichi marks. I also reproduced some old photographs and an essay about a titled ozo who'd recently died, if I remember rightly. I'll look for the post later but it should be findable in my (short) post history.

This can be applied to any history. It's just speculation. What we have now is evidence, and the evidence points to Nri or a pre-Nri people.

Just to be clear, Ika, as a fringe 'Igbo' community, does not claim descent from Benin. We've given too much time to random internet claims and objections. It's time we start to find out the truth.

abagoro: Another thing I've noticed about Igbos is that the oral history of majority of communities dates back to around 16th to 18th century and nothing more is remembered beyond those dates. Something must have happened that caused the sudden emergence of several Igbo communities around that period.

The slave trade, starting from the 16th century, hit the Igbo people hardest in the 18th century, which led to the break down of societies. This was also around the time guns were introduced. I know, for example, that there was a lot of infighting in Igbo groups of the south after the introduction of guns.

[quote author=PAGAN 9JA]no your explanantion is still undatisfactory. I replayed the video. The wrappers are not that thick and they are touching ground level. ok so if the wrapper is even and the dides are touching the ground, wouldnt it be the same case with the centre?

about the snake one, where was the man situated? inside the snake? how did he twirl in such impossible ways? how did the entire masquerade was able to shut.


anyways sha these are are masquerades/spirit dances for entertainment and cultural purposes. but plz explain the above.[/quote]You actually believe a man can rise out of the solid earth and he is still poor and in Nigeria? They didn't show the ground underneath the mask.

PhysicsQED: By the way it is untrue that "the kings of the Igala claimed descent from the Nri of Igbo-Ukwu" as Ehret suggests. There is not a single precolonial or early colonial document or even post colonial document which supports this idea that they actually claimed descent from Nri, even if there might be some post colonial documents or articles from non-Igalas that attempt to make it seem like they actually did claim that descent or which state that they have that descent. In fact, anyone who has read the earliest documents about the Nri and Igala connection will come across numerous publications suggesting or stating outright that the founders of Nri were originally Igala settlers. This does not mean that that is necessarily true (that they were Igala settlers), but it is something which Ehret should have at least mentioned if he was going to talk about the connection. That's another error on his part.

These claims may have confused the Igala prime ministers, Asadu/Achadu, who are supposedly of Igbo descent, although I do not know where from.

TerraCotta: Yes--my sense is that Thornton gave the Portuguese too much credit for transcribing what they were told accurately. North, south, east, west, notions of time and travel ("four moons inland" = four months' travel etc) are likely to have been much less uniform back then than they are now and probably explain discrepancies a little more accurately than his ideas in that paper do. I think the man does amazing work on the Kongo/Angola region though.

Thanks for the reference. That article is new to me, but as you say, the arguments it presents have been around a while. I also didn't mean to imply that the theories of Nri hegemony etc originate on the internet. As the author points out, Onwuejiogwu and Adiele Afigbo were publishing similar stuff in the '70s. I just meant that the Internet amplifies these fantastic claims and ideas that aren't rooted in anything other than suggestions by the original sources. Thurston Shaw hypothesizes a link to a nearby kingdom, and in thirty-five years, that's turned into unlikely claims of ancient empires and pedigrees. That stuff has to do with modern political considerations (measuring up or surpassing peer ethnic groups) and very little to do with the facts.

I'd prefer to be careful about speculating on the origins of Igbo-Ukwu bronzeworks since I'm not especially well-informed on the topic and I hate when people present their guesses and hypotheses as fact. The Nri dynasty could well be linked to the Igbo-Ukwu crafters. It makes sense to look for origins in related areas. My issue is that the Nri system (as it exists, anyway) is most likely an offshoot of Igala traditions of royalty as we've established, so deriving Igbo-Ukwu from that lineage suggests an ultimately Igala provenance for the work. Since Igbo-Ukwu's dating is far older than anything we have (again, currently) for the Igala region, and there's also differences in stylistic emphasis and symbolism, I don't think the idea make sense.

Igbo-Ukwu depicts specifically Igbo artefacts and cultural norms so there's no reason to believe it's derived from an outside tradition (unlike the current Nri bronze regalia, which shares symbols and similarities with Igala). Your point about the link with locusts is also interesting, but I'd say it's pretty inconclusive too. If locusts were a particularly virulent pest in the area, it's likely they'd be reflected in the mythology and symbolic art of all traditions whether related or not. As an example: are all depictions of leopards related to some ultimate common source or do they reflect long-standing observations and cultural beliefs about the prowess and killing ability of leopards in similar ecological zones (Dahomey/Benin/Sierra Leone and the Poro society/Eso warriors in Oyo/Hausa boxers and the 'damisa' tradition etc)? The second possibility seems more likely to me.

In my view, Shaw suggested Nri because of its proximity and didn't delve that much deeper into it because his focus was on excavation, cataloging and preservation of the artwork. Historians and cultural anthropologists were supposed to elaborate on the provenance and timeline. In the time since his book came out, those historians/anthropologists with political agendas have virtually sealed the Nri hypothesis as fact and other, possibly more useful, inquiries have withered. I think critical readers should take those recent conclusions with a grain of salt and make sure they're considering other factors if they're looking for a straight answer.

The author of the paper you recommended suggests autochthonous subgroups in the Nri area (umudiana) might be responsible for the art as opposed to the current Nri dynasty. That seems logical and it's new to me. I wasn't aware of those different groups so that's a helpful direction in which to look. Perhaps the Nri Igala/umudiana dichotomy is an issue of dynasty change and there is a longer timeline to be explored there.

From my layman's view though, I'd think that Awka/Oka metalsmithing traditions are the logical place to look deeper for the roots of bronze smithing. He refers to Awka briefly in that paper, but their mythic role as the heaven-sent ironsmith that created dry land (markedly similar to beliefs about Ogun in the Yoruba-Edo-Fon area, too) may point to some more remote truths about the origins and emerging ethnic identity of the Igbo-Ukwu founders. The age and skill of Awka metalworking traditions acknowledged in surrounding traditions gives even more weight to the possibility. When you consider that other (currently)non-Igbo groups like the Ijo and Edo recognize Awka smiths in some of their earliest traditions like the Ozidi saga, it's quite likely that historians/archaeologists etc have overlooked a fruitful area of research. Nancy Neaher's old articles about Awka smiths and their traveling services has already suggested some of these ideas. It's all guesswork and speculation on my part, though; I'm just less inclined to believe the "specifically Nri" claim due to some fairly obvious evidence about its more recent Igala origins.

That's way more than I meant to write!

TerraCotta: I see what you mean. The one constant we know of is that Igbo-Ukwu finds are dated to circa 900 AD-1100 AD. Since we have no corresponding early evidence for cultures in Nri or Igala, I find it less likely that these places can claim parentage. It's true that Eri etc. could have sprung from an early/unknown Igala source and then also made the Igbo-Ukwu bronzes but we've got no evidence to suggest that beyond fanciful kinglists for Nri. We do know that there's been more recent Igala incursion into the Nri area by the Oloja Oboni/Ogboni group, and that type of interaction is more likely to be the origin of the current dynasty.

The Nri kingdom is not a dynasty. It is not a hereditary kingship, in fact it's hardly a kingship at all, at least, in the Igala sense. Nri kings are chosen through a ritual process from supposedly random Nri families, the member of such a family would have had to be an Ozo title holder (priest-like member of a council for the Eze Nri, another feature of Nri organisation that is markedly Igbo). This whole process is already completely different from the more centralised Idah kingship which is rotated around four branches of a royal clan. The king of Nri held no military power, it was almost a completely religious role. Completely opposite to Igala kingship. For lack of a better example, the role of Eze Nri is similar to that of the Dalai Llama. The transliteration of 'Eze' along with generalisation of Igbo cultures has led to some misunderstandings. The state religion of Nri was sun veneration, which I do not believe follows Igala historical sociological development. Linguistic terms for religious and political structure also bear faint similarity with the Igala, if we are talking about something similar to the scale of Benin-Ife relationship, then it's a very loose connection because Eri, Nri, Ozo, etc are all easily translatable into modern Igbo, there are no significant Igala words for political/religious things, such as how we know Ikenga/Okega among the Igala.

On to Igbo-Ukwu. It's classification as an Nri cultural site is not as lazily placed as is thought. The artefacts origins hint to Nri culture with much stronger links than just similarity in animal symbolism. Among Igbo-Ukwu animal figures were human figures fashioned with Nri Ichi scarifications on their foreheads, temples, and cheeks; many of these scarifications were used by different Nri clans until the start of the last century as allegiance to the sun cult of Nri and followed precise styles depending on the community.

The image below is a sketch of some of the faces found on the metal works, I do not know the origin of this image, but the faces match the faces of the artefacts from Igbo-Ukwu. You can clearly see sun-imagery in the scarification. They are all similar to scarifications borne by different Umunri communities, particularly the middle figure (e) is most similar to that on photographed Nri people from the early 20th century, below this image is an example.

[img]http://igbocybershrine.files./2011/08/ichi.jpg[/img]

https://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m7djqmxmbx1qjh37to1_400.jpg

Above image is from here with the source of the drawing: http://ukpuru..com/2012/07/ichi-scarification-is-not-tribal-mark.html

The most telling sign of Nri influence is that the area of the rediscovered burial chamber is on a piece of Igbo Ukwu claimed to have been part of Oraeri at one point, an Umunri clan.

I'm also confused as what modern Nri bronze items are of Igala design.

bigfrancis21: @Bolded:
Largely untrue. Carbon dating posits that the Nri civilization came into existence as early as 900AD! The dating of Nri civilization is authenticated by carbon -14, a scientific process, unlike most civilizations in Nigeria. The Igbo civilization has been around in their present area for a fairly very long time. Having said this, it is very much possible that Eri may have fathered s significant portion of the Igbo race. Below is the carbon dating results carried out on the artefacts discovered in Igbo-Ukwu in Oraeri, Nri kingdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Archaeology_of_Igbo-Ukwu

Nri, the founder of the kingdom, was the son of Eri and Nri lived around 1100 years ago if we follow the Nri list of kings.

bigfrancis21: However, I do believe that not all parts of Igboland originated from Nri. The present Igbo stock came to their present location from quite many outside areas. Suffice to say, not all areas have the Nri blood. If the Jewish connection is true, it then implies that not all areas of Igbo land may have the gene running them, though this may be watered down given the ubiquitous rates of inter-marriages in Igbo land. This is why I asked what pockets of Igboland should be tested for the Jewish blood.

Villages mnemonic of their Eri ancestry such as Oraeri (The people of Eri), Umueri (Children/Descendants of Eri), Agulueri etc located at different points in Anambra state all point to a common originating ancestor with name, 'Eri'.
It is possible that the Eri foreigner may have landed in Igbo land at some point in history and definitely met the black natives with whom he intermarried with.

What do you mean by "black natives"? Are you implying that Eri was not a darkskinned Sudanid?

bigfrancis21: The pre-historic Igbo-hebrew traditions are mnemonic of the pure traditions the wandering Jews who were living rudimentary lives were practicing before they reached the promised land (Israel of today).
@Bolded: One can assume that the original Jewish progenitors of the Igbo Jews wandered off from the others during the period when the wandering Jews were living rudimentary life styles, and they ventured off into africa and landed at Nri.

There are no oral Igbo histories of migration to a promised land. The Hebrew descended communities have these tales among them. The theory is reaching and far-fetched.

https://24.media.tumblr.com/fb8df678fc0e2c09c22fff6293f836e0/tumblr_ml8qfq8xPa1qjh37to1_500.jpg

"PREPARING “IDE” FOR MAKING STRING (OBULUKU)
Northcote Thomas, Early 20th century."

https://25.media.tumblr.com/bc6ec9824f15db3c6c7aa018d3bd81b4/tumblr_mfn8g4xZU61qjh37to1_500.jpg

"An Igbo mbari religious building built for the earth goddess Ala. Nnnorie, near Owere, Nigeria. Herbert M. Cole, 1969."

https://25.media.tumblr.com/d611dddb513e36c0fee1a855dee1fbc4/tumblr_mfn01iyh0p1qjh37to1_500.jpg

"The largest single mbari structure still standing in 1966-67, and perhaps one of the largest ever built. Note the size of the priest who is standing beside the seated deity. [Nigeria, unknown date; maybe early 20th century].
Herbert M. Cole, 1982."

Eri only lived around 1200 years ago which is not enough time to germinate 30 million people over hundreds of square miles. The oral tradition is not what I was contesting, but the claim that Eri is the 'father of all Igbo people' which isn't possible if everyone wanted it to be. Even if Igbo people have Near-Eastern heritage it would be wrong to describe it as Jewish since modern Jewish identity did not exist then, especially Ashkenazim culture, and there would probably be other influences from such as long migration from the near-east which would have happened thousands of years ago to give enough time for such a migration to end in 'Igboland'.

I have a problem with all these 'Igbo Jews' who take on Ashkenazim tradition. I mean, if you're ancestors were the original "Hebrews" or whatever, then doesn't that mean whatever religion you had before Europeanisation was the true religion of the Hebrews which you should be following and that Igbo is the true language? Especially when the Israelites and Hebrews had a multitude of deities. Why would you follow another entirely separate form of 'israelite' worship that developed entirely in Europe?

bigfrancis21: @Bolded: I wonder too.

In as much as we all have the right to claim what we want, there might be some credence to the Igbo-Jewish connection, given the numerous convincing pieces of evidence.

However, one thing i'm yet to know is why Israel, Nigeria, no group/company or even the pro-jewish Igbo supporters themselves haven't bothered o ahead and prove or disprove the supposed connection by conducting a wide-scale DNA test on the Igbo people to check for existing/non-existing DNA links? This same DNA test was done for the black Jews of Ethiopia and the long-time speculations of their Jewish ancestry proved to be true. The DNA test is the best and only conclusive way to determine the connection. I am a full supporter of this project and I wouldn't mind taking the test myself someday.
The next question that arises is what pockets of Igboland should the DNA be tested for Jewish links? My probable suggestions would be the Nri/Umunri axis, where it is believed that the rest of the Igbo race came from and where oral tradition holds that the ancestor was a man called, 'Eri' who settled there and bore 'Nri' who went on to give birth to the Igbo race. The descendants of Eri today are known as 'umueri'/'umuleri', and 'agulueri'. It is interesting to note that it is recorded in the bible that the fifth son of Jacob was a man known as 'Eri'.

This is not true. And Eri is a a two syllable word that can be found almost anywhere on earth

I believe there were aborigines of 'Igboland', such as 'Pygmies', who were displaced and absorbed by agricultural peoples. It makes sense that the Nri mythology states that their ancestors civilised a group of people, and the same for other mythologies around Nigeria, although I believe these stories, just like stories of autochthonous communities, were appropriated from much more ancient stories. Pygmies are thought to have inhabited this greater central African forest as a hunter-gatherer society before being displaced by agricultural peoples from the Sudan area.

If it was real "juju" the masquerade will simply jump out of the solid ground. Simple.

pleep: Dude. you people always miss the point

The point is everyone built stuff out of wood up until the 1940's... that is not anything particular. Even a good percentage of houses today are made entirely of wood.

The mosque at timbuktu is magnificent structure, but i think that with the resources available to Mali at that time they could have done much better.

Well the structures near the Sahara are usually built with mud bricks by all kinds of peoples and cultures. The availability of stone doesn't necessarily mean it is the best material to use or the most desirable.

My opinion:

Igbo people are branch of a migration of people coming from the east between 3000 and 7000 years ago. They are one of the oldest branches of a tree that went on to birth other groups that are west of them, but they probably absorbed a more ancient group of people which is why you have tales of colonisers and people who never even migrated at all. The word Igbo was used by a few Igbo groups before the industrial age, not by all or most. The Igbo are a ethno-lingustic group, and I do not believe the theory that they were born out of recent (around 1000) years of sporadic migration for the most part. There is a clear, in my opinion, definitive migration pattern starting from where would be around Abia, Imo, Enugu today and branching out in all directions that links most or all Igbo communities together through blood ties. For instance, most of the communities in Abia were founded by people from Imo State.

The individualistic nature of Igbo communities has lead to a village identity, so even these so called Igbo groups themselves have had a strengthened identity due to recent outer influence. There have been more bloody wars and skirmishes between blood tied Igbo communities or even inside these communities than there have been with any other group, perfect example is the Nri-Aguleri 500 years of hostility, even though they can point to a common ancestor, which most other groups cannot.

[quote author=ShyM-X]Everything comes with the territory and the systematic destruction of the black race... Don't forget the Jews got reparations for the holocaust; Indians never suffered the type of systematic destruction that we have/are suffered/suffering and they have a pale skin to boost their place on the racial ladder; and Arabs have the oil money to their advantage....

However, that doesn't negate the fact that we've been indoctrinated beyond redemption and the new "black race" lacks the wit and know-how to create wealth... We're so focused on being accepted by the status quo due to our innate low self-esteem and inferior complex bore out of this systematic destruction that we can't discern that wealth-creation/black-business is the only way to get the black race back to where it belongs...[/quote]African immigrants and Indian immigrants are on a level playing field. The most abused people in the West are now Muslims, yet Muslims from the Indian subcontinent still own the majority of the neighbourhoods they are a majority in. In the UK the richest list features many Asians and Jews, in the US Muslims are shop owners and Koreans are selling everything back to the black people. You mean that these shops and all this land was dashed to these non-African communities who came to the West, most of them hungry and from struggling backgrounds and troubled countries just like many Africans, some from even more troubled countries, as a calculative move?

pleep: ^1700 London was majority made out of wood.... and so was 1940's japan.

What matters is the structures they built. And Mali cannot compete on that level.

And can you explain the structural details of Malian and London/Japan buildings so we know how they cannot compete? Aren't the beams used to hold up upper floors in Mali the same used in London? Aren't the window fittings and roof seals in Mali comparable to Japan? What makes Japan and London so special? Because they took on the architecture of the Romans and Chinese?

pleep: Governments build stone buildings... the regular people use mud, wood or w/e. Thats a given

And Ancient Egyptian upper classes lived in mud building that weren't as grand or as spacious as that of aristocratic Nigerians 500 years ago.

http://i38.tinypic.com/16a6y4y.jpg

File > Effects > Blur tool.

[quote author=ShyM-X]How come all black neighbourhoods in the diaspora(from US, UK, Canada, France, to Australia) have liquor stores and bookies shops on almost every street corner?

Honestly, it seems this is a systematic way of destroying black folks...

Give them alcohol and sell them a dream through the bookies...

This is pretty sad, to be honest...[/quote]Why is it that Jews, Indians, Arabs, and everyone else are always landlords wherever they are found in large numbers, but it's dark skinned Africans that are the ones always complaining on the internet about bad things happening in their own neighbourhoods?