₦airaland Forum

Hmm, I guess it was 2011 that Nigeria saw its first crisis in its north where 1000s of southerners were targeted and 100's were killed. It was also the first time Nigeria saw the murder of corp members. Hundreds of people dying 'in more than one state' (that makes the hundreds more acceptable) should get the same reaction as five people being kidnapped by what are probably a handful of hardened criminals who would be slaughtered by their own townsmen, instead of a significant amount the majority of a towns youth like in the north who are roaming about now untouched even by the police, let alone their townspeople.

As if there's never been a kidnapping or murder of any corp members in any of the other 'regions'. These have never led to Nigerians asking that region to empty of NYSC members, because there clearly isn't a steady pattern of genocide.

The comparison between this (if it is true, kidnapping five people) and people randomly slaughtering people as they walk by on the street is stupid. That's the same as comparing kidnapping in Colombia to the Darfur crisis, where do people get their reasoning from?

Adejoro74, is it not okay? At least be the bigger man against anyone you're competing with and keep quiet.

The answer to all the problems? Look past any bias.

Genocides in Nigeria aren't called genocides in Nigeria, they are called 'civilian clashes' even though these 'clashes' lead to at least 100 people dead on each round. There have been so many genocides in Nigeria in a space of 5 years that when we hear 800 people died in Jos we nod and agree that it was a terrible 'civilian clash'!!! Why is there a routine genocide in Nigeria? One answer could be, as many Nigerians like to say, "bad leadership", "bad leadership", or "bad leadership". The answer could be because Nigeria, like most colonial states, was designed to fail without Europeans. The Nigerian-Biafran war, although not usually recalled as a genocide, was the start of Africa's cycle's of genocides and the images it became attached with.

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[size=18pt]Part 1[/size]
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uDPZjTo4Te4[/flash]

[size=18pt]Part 2[/size]
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaN0G-_9qX0[/flash]
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[quote author=Ileke-IdI link=topic=663772.msg8438215#msg8438215 date=1306981712]Apart from tribal marks, did any African nation know what tattoo was before the 20th century?[/quote]Almost every culture on earth had tattoos.

Who ever wrote this is very creative and should think about writing books, fictional writing in Nigeria is low.

ChinenyeN:
Oh okay. Now I get what you're saying. I thought I was making the same point, but I guess I had an issue with syntax; my wording. In that case then, I can rephrase, but I'm still only saying one thing (the same thing I've been saying from the beginning), we largely have Europeans to thank for our current 'Igbo' identity.

And I agree.

ChinenyeN:
Again with the HOW. Details upon details which will forever be debatable. You know what, overthinking leads to useless debates. Follow the simple line of deduction. 'Igbo' is a northern/western word, not southern. If Europeans came across the word, then it means that they also came across northern/western Igbo slaves. Simple. How is that so difficult to grasp?

What I'm saying is that you're going to have to explain yourself when you say the 'Europeans crafted Igbo identity' or the slaves were from the northern Igbolands because they identified as Igbo (even when some southern groups include Igbo in their origin stories) because they are statements that you have to understand before agreeing and moving on to whatever other points there are.

ChinenyeN:
First of all, those 'long slave routes' are the result of connecting once unconnected trade markets. To put it simply, before the routes became 'long slave routes', they were trade market routes, largely unconnected. For instance, before the Aro had become particularly involved in the slave trade, Ngwa markets were localized and leaning toward what is now known as Rivers state. Basically, Ngwa had market routes to the coast, and aside form Umuahia people, who more or less acted as middlemen traders for the Ngwa and groups further north, Ngwa was largely disconnected from other Igbo markets. It was like this until finally, Arochukwu, through the Okonko society, connected Ngwa markets along the 'long slave route' that you mentioned.

There are trade routes everywhere, however, this is the biggest slave route in Igboland even if it was once a trade route for other things.

ChinenyeN:
Look, all these details (the HOW, which we can forever argue about) do not invalidate the fact that 'Igbo' as we know largely owes itself to European contact (which is the main thing I'm saying/asserting here).

This is true, but it is different from saying that Europeans crafted the Igbo identity or that southern and northern slaves were split between Igbo (north) and then different clans (south).

lakal:
Ezeagu, what is noted here is how the Onitshas conceived of the Igbo speaking world:  the people of the East bank were Igbo, and the People of the West bank (but also including themselves) were Enuani people.  The term Enuani is still in existence, as is Igbo.  (Is Enuani similar to the term "Olu" that is used in 'Olu na Igbo bu nwanne?')

Other sources also mentioned how the Onitshas historically looked down on the people that they termed "Igbo," as did some of the other Enuani people, such as the Ikas.  (Similar to how Oyo Yorubas looked down on non-Oyos)

I'm saying that it was not only the Onicha that perceived the world like this (we and them the Igbo), you even gave an example of Olu, the river side people.

ChinenyeN:
No. Enuani and Oru (Olu) people are not the same. Enuani are western Igbo cultural area, and Oru are Riverine Igbo cultural area.

I think he's talking about people from what is now spelt 'Orlu' or people near the Niger.

ChinenyeN:
Like I stated earlier, Ezeagu, its the HOW. People get so caught up on the HOW. The HOW is always debatable, and the HOW is not even the point I've been trying to make. Instead, the [i]only [/i]point I've been trying to make is the WHAT, and that WHAT is very simple. 'Igbo' is a northern/western word. It belongs to the northern/western Igbo cultural area, not the south, and Europeans simply took that word and applied it to both the northern/western and southern/eastern groups. Europeans crafted 'Igbo' identity, as we know it. That is the only point I've been making here, and that is something we can all agree on. Details though, are left for the debatable HOW.

You're going to have to explain how Europeans crafted Igbo identity with convincing evidence for people to understand where the word Igbo came from and how it spread. The fact that Igbo is a northern word is not significant in the argument for Europeans crafting the Igbo identity, this is what people have a problem with, the idea that Europeans made Igbo people Igbo. Aside from the other reasons for why this fact is not significant, one would be that we already know many things from the northern groups have become rooted into the cultures and identities of the southern and western Igbo cultures which was done before Europeans crossed the Ocean.

ChinenyeN:
Also, when the slave trade shifted from Bonny/Kalabari to Arochukwu, the raid for slaves was concentrated more the northern cultural area, not southern.

The Northern parts that Arochukwu had deals with raiders was with the Nike lands, apart from that Onicha was the only significant trading post for slaves in the northern areas, and then we come into the south with large slave trading areas like Nkwerre, and other groups like those around Umuahia, Uzuakoli, Ngwa, in short, most of the communities along the long slave route that can be seen stretching through Abia and Rivers today.

ChinenyeN:
Most slaves came from northern Igbo cultural area.

Southern groups were not afraid to involve themselves in slave trading (and raiding), why should the slave traders waste their time travelling up to the north when they can get their slaves from the southern groups. Where were most of Aro's victims from?

See here. http://people.wku.edu/johnston.njoku/

Also read here. http://books.google.com/books?id=6eqiRAP3U2kC&pg=PA61

lakal:
I'm not really in your debate, but I like historical topics such as the origins of the term "Igbo."

Basden, which I cited earlier, seems to support Chinenye's Northern/Western Hypothesis:


The origin of  the  word  Ibo  is  obscure.  In  the  records  of  the early explorers  we  do  not  meet  with  the  name.  The country on  the  left  bank of  the  Lower  Niger  was spoken of  as  Elu-Ugwu,  which simply indicates  "high land "(hill).  That  on  the right  bank  was  called  Ado,  and  this rather  refers  to  Benin.  There  was  a  small  town  between  Onitsha  and Idah  called Igbo,  but  this  could  hardly  have supplied the  name  by  which the  whole country is  known.  The  name  was,  doubtless, first  met  with  at Onitsha.  The  people of  this  town  claim  to  have  come  from  the  western side  of  the  Niger, and  some  of  the leading families  state  that they are  of Bini  stock.  Thes[b]e  people  designate all  the  eastern  hinterland  as Ibo, and  the  western  side  of  the  river  as  Enu-Ani. [/b] The  word  is  now  usually spelt and  pronounced  Ibo,  but  to  the  native  it  is Igbo, the gb  being used  as  an explosive sound.

"The origin of  the  word  Ibo  is  obscure" Meaning there is no offical origin. There are towns with the word 'Igbo' that are older than Onicha that even Basden noted. And there are also stories among some other groups about a person called 'Igbo' and other related stories. We already know about the 'us and them the Igbo' terms the Igbo groups used.

ChinenyeN:
The use of Eboe/Heebo is noted in the 18th century. No one knows for sure if such is mentioned before the 18th century, and we can't really say, since we don't really note documentation of Eboe/Heebo at that time, but we begin noticing it in the 18th century, and by the 19th century, Europeans had begun extensively writing on 'Eboe'/'Heebo' people. We also note that at this time (18th/19th century), Arochukwu had gotten into the slave business and had begun raiding northern Igbo (Eboe/Heebo) communities, selling them to Bonny and Calabar. These 'Eboe'/'Heebo' people were then sent to Freetown, Sierre Leone.

The Igbo were sent primarily to the British America Colonies in the 18th century, Sierra Leone received Igbo people in the 19th century as re-captives. Sierra Leone itself was providing slaves for the British as well before the 19th century.

ChinenyeN:
Now, for the Ngwa, early journals and documentation specifically note 'Ungua' or 'Carabali Ungua'. The Ngwa, along with other southern groups like Echee, were all referred to as 'Carabali' not 'Eboe'/'Heebo', and were sold and sent to Havana, Cuba at around the 17th century.

'Ungua' in Havana of the 19th century was a point of origin that Cubans noted from some Ngwa re-captives, there are many ways Igbo re-captives described their origin, which ranged from town/village, to clan and then to Eboe/Ibo which was the most popular. Most slaves from all around Igboland are noted as Eboe. 'Carabali' was a Spanish word that described the geographical location of what the British called the Bight of Biafra. Carabali was also used to describe the people that came from here and obviously wasn't a name the slaves gave to themselves, unless they were Kalabari. For example there was a 'Carabli Onecha'.

ChinenyeN:
The 'Eboe'/'Heebo' though, noted around the 18th century were sent to Freetown, Sierre Leone. Many ['Eboe'/'Heebo'] were also sent to the British Colonies and the West Indies. It is there at Sierre Leone that you see the name 'Ibo Town'. You don't note such in Havana, Cuba though. You also hear of Ibo landing in Georgia. No such reference though is made in Havana, Cuba. Haitians in the West Indies also have a song in which they deify their respective groups, and in one such deification you hear of 'Igbo'. All these places which feature the use of 'Igbo' had slaves who primarily/predominantly originated from 'Eboe'/'Heebo' (northern Igbo people/hinterland) areas. But amongst the earlier 'Carabali' slave groups (composed primarily of southern Igbo people), you do not hear of the 'Eboe'/'Heebo', and as such, you do not hear of things such as an 'Ibo Town' in Havana, or other things which refer to 'Ibo'.

Most of the Igbo slaves in the height of the Biafran slave trade would have been southern. The cultural influences in places like Jamaica (Okonko influences from what is now Abia) and Barbados (Obeah-Aro from the same area) point towards the south, very strongly actually. Aro's activity points towards this, and lastly the long slave route throughout the south also points towards this. So 'Eboe' was not only used for northern groups. Note that 'Ibo' place names aren't necessarily found in every colony the Igbo were shipped to in the Americas in large numbers, like Jamaica, St. Lucia, Dominica. . . .

ChinenyeN:
Going back to present day Nigeria, hinterland (northern Igbo people) 'Eboe'/'Heebo' slaves had begun populating Bonny, and it is during this time (the 19th century) that you begin to notice European visitors (like Captain Hugh Crow) referring to Bonny as Eboe/Heebo (this is because of the significant number of hinterland Eboe/Heebo slaves). Before then (before the 19th century), Bonny had only been known to Europeans as Kuleba, Okuloma, Obani, Bany, and Bonny.

Captain Hugh Crow kept note of Bonny as 'Bonny', and then talked about the large amount of Igbo descendants there are on the island. And the people populating Bonny definitely weren't mostly northern Igbo because Bonny's dialect is nothing like those up north.

ChinenyeN:
By this time also (19th century), Ibo Town in Sierra Leone was established. It was there at Ibo Town, Sierra Leone that people like Crowther (the Yoruba man who is well-known for promoting written Igbo, specifically the Isuama-centered one) learned of the word 'Ibo' and began applying it to everyone who sounded like the 'Eboe'/'Heebo' (i.e. the Isuama and other northern Igbo groups).

As a creole, it couldn't have been Crowther's first time hearing the word Ibo or even Igbo, the re-captured Ibo slaves before him were much, I'm sure he himself must have had Igbo relatives. Instead of Ibo town being as a result of a new found Ibo identity, I believe this was just a new found Ibo consciousness.

ChinenyeN:
Then by the 20th century, what we now know as 'Igboland' was called 'Ibo country', by Europeans, and the groups of 'Ibo country' were called 'Ibo-speaking' (note, they were not called 'Ibo' per se, just 'Ibo speaking'). This was so for two reasons, 1) when the Europeans came and began propagating 'Ibo' throughout Igboland, they came to find out that various/many groups in the area denied that they were 'Ibo', though 2) they all spoke something similar with the 'Ibo' of 'Ibo Town', Sierra Leone (making them Ibo-speaking). Then, by the mid-20th century, 'Igbo' had accepted the European use of 'Ibo', and by the 1960s the 'Igbo' themselves began perpetuating it by publishing material on the 'Igbo' people, 'Igbo' language, and 'Igbo' culture. No such material existed before the mid-20th century though.

'Eboe country' is as old as the spelling of the word 'Eboe'. Europeans thought 'Eboe Town' (Onicha) was the capital of the Eboe country and the people themselves were Eboe groups, the spelling changed to Ibo when they actually came into Igboland, but they were still seen as Ibo groups. The word Eboe was from the slaves themselves. There are notices of runaway slaves whose masters note their origin and ethnic identification, for example there was one 'from Bonna of the Ibo country', and this is what the slaves told the plantation owners themselves. The spread of Igbo identity can't be due to the northern groups and slavery, because the southern groups were the most enslaved which is why one of the longest slave routes in Nigeria cuts through Uzuakoli to Bonny if I remember well.

[center]And this is where this thread dies a slooow death. . . . .[/center]

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Nonsense 'reporting'.

The description of the location of Benin in his story points towards the Western Igbo, but some of his descriptions of 'Essaka' seem more like the other side of the Niger. The fact that he had mentioned Benin's influence in his town, but had never heard of or seen large rivers could be because there was no large river between Benin and his town. And why would they be crossing such a large river, as he describes it, if they weren't in western Igboland.

Every bomb blast bring Nigeria closer to 2015.

I don't believe Equiano is from Issieke. He's description (Essaka) fits Ashaka best.

. . . . . as if Nigeria is nearly as organised as the US. They did what they can with the incompetent country.

Katsumoto:
Debenhams is more likely to make money from middle class shoppers than heavy spenders because of the numbers of middle class shoppers. If its only the Debenhams on Oxford street or if the retailer was a luxury brand, then I might have been convinced that they are appealing to their usual customers. In this case, I am just going with the retailer trying to reach some of its [size=18pt]illiterate customers[/size].

People who can read a sign (or anything) are not illiterate.

Abagworo:
An observation of those he referred to as Oye-Eboe shows that these Igbos might have been Aros.

Aro don't come from the south west, especially not from the south west of Ashaka.

[quote author=Inked_Nerd link=topic=550757.msg8413188#msg8413188 date=1306651705]@OP: What's the name of this book though? [/quote]They don't want to tell you. I'm pretty sure it's this.

And the quote is from afrocubaweb.com/ivormiller/IvorArticle.pdf

One of the comments on his blog.

Al, that would be a lot more convincing if you weren’t writing it from the servers of a real estate firm in the US. Isn’t it ironic that the wealthy diasporas always seem to be the most patriotic?

So true!

[center]https://www.hamillgallery.com/BENIN/BeninHeads/BeninHead12l.JPG[/center]

[center]https://www.galerie-herrmann.com/arts/art3/Ife_Benin/07_Kopf_gr_w/Benin_380J_gr.jpg[/center]

I think Igbo originated in what is now Anambra, I think they say it's the name of a person. I don't know the story.

PhysicsMHD:
https://img685.imageshack.us/img685/3962/anigbocompound1978.jpg

This looks like a mud version of the 'false doors' in Egyptian buildings.