₦airaland Forum

uzoexcel: just watched the osanyin video.. my yoruba knowledge is poor...what were u asking it?
is it a god or what?can u ask him when the first man walked on earth and how many years ago?

It is God of medicine. . . And herbs.

When you meet an Onisanyin, task him to allow you question Osanyin. . . .that is where you can get answer to the second question

mazaje: Am tired of this endless back and forth. . .Just to make things clear when I say god you know exactly what I mean I clearly gave you the definition but you refused to accept it. . .When an atheist says he does not believe in god it means he does not believe in deities. . .

This is the definition of deity. . .

In religious belief, a deity (Listeni/ˈdiː.ɨti/ or Listeni/ˈdeɪ.ɨti/)[1] is a supernatural being, who may be thought of as holy, divine, or sacred. Some religions have one supreme deity, while others have multiple deities of various ranks.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deity

You are just all over the place, firstly you started by defining god as energy, you even went as far as trying to claiming that the god of the bible is energy just to satisfy your ridiculous delusions. You tried to force the bible to agree with you that its god is a pantheist god which you called energy in your delusions . .When called out you jumped ship and claimed that god as just a label. . .I am not going to respond to you again. . .You have no definition for god. . .To you god means anything which is not what this topic is about, this topic is specifically about the theistic concept of god. . .If you want to discuss your energy god and stone god go create another topic pls and discuss it. . .I am not going to respond to you again. . .

Mr. . . . . You think you can hide behind lies and arrogance? So you think you would ignore me because you are exposed? This will not stop me from showing you who you're.

We have to redefine what atheism is. Going by what you have up there, atheism should be disbelieve in theistic God but believe in pantheistic, spinoza, panentheistic and other connception of God. . . .including social (admired person) or creative art (theatre gallery) definition of God.

If atheism is defined as that, it is then no more atheism but anti-theism. . ..

Now you know where you belong. . . .not really an atheist you claim to be but an anti-theist. . . .or probably hatheist who just love to hate everything theistic or God.

iamord: Thanks. For the Link. My baba was telling about some war stories and the wonders it did to save them - the ekale people of ondo. And I was surprised that. Such technology exist.. His grand father did not die but after he called all his children together , he gave his blessings and. Warnings, bade them farewell then hit the ground with his palm 3 times then entered and was never seen again.. A lot of stories from african tradition could make hollywood style blockbuster movies. Asides that I want to know, why don't we as african use our powers for good and development. Is the power evil, or are we evil in mind and heart? Today you can hardly find something good to speak of.. Only tales of past glory.. I believe that the atr is promising and like a gold mine yet to be untapped, and it also plays a key role in the development of a country. But is not being utilized.. we need to change the way we think as a people.. there has to be a shift as to the way we do things over here. I will like u to educate me more on capabilities of osayin tho!

this is the reason why Yoruba spiritualism is encircled in Awo (esoteric society). All the knowledge of energy principles, mastering of the knowledge and utilization is bounded within this called Circle. Little of it is know by the public. . . . .those known are manifestation and work of the masters who are initiated in Awo.

There are also specifications in the work carried out by different Awo. Someone initiated in Sango cult would be able to invoke and manipulate thunder and lightning but would not be able to bend the power of Eshu which is the work of those initiated in Eshu cult. Whatever is Awo is not meant to be known by the general public. This is why most of our tech are not exposed.

Actually, we have our medicine struggling to beat down modern drugs. I once meet a friend who is a plant scientist. He did a research work in the lab on herbal medicine made by illiterate Agbo seller. From his work, he concluded there are chemicals that are potent enough to cure a specify disease. How do you think this so called illiterates, uncivilized and superstitious folks get to know this medicine? Garri and limewater cures malaria. . . .this was directed to me by my dad. . . .do you think I even know what chemicals contain in garri and limewater are? Likewise my dad, those in the villa that have this knowledge and those old mama that never in their live have not stepped at school door. . . .yet they know how to add different leaves, herbs, fruits, process of preparation, time and method of application of medicines which work fine on different disease, ailment and sickness. This shows that there is depot of knowledge in this society when actually, this is one of the little skills the public enjoy. Larger part of it is saved among the Awo.

I have not once seen a case where someone disappear. But i can speak of when my grandma was about to die, she called all her children. . . .cracked joke with them and even requested for a special meal. Despite that she was heavily sick, she asked for new clothes to put on and a small party was set for her. On the table where we all eat from, she said farewell and went to bed. . . .there she died. A close pal in his 80s died mysteriously this way. Though I am not his family but he gave me some herbal medicine and how to make it. He said I should keep it for my self for future purpose. . . .the very night he died.

Public knowledge of this body of knowledge is because 'oro awo ni'. Not meant for every person.

On the side of speaking ills of Atr, I think this is because of people you gather your info from. Christianity and Islam also speak very bad about ATR: i know of churches that preach that herbal medicine is evil. . . .yet the Aladura churches are not different from Traditional practice. People can speak ill of it but going for the information you need, get close to it source and you will know what is truth and false accounts.

Personally to me though, I dont fancify publicalization. I hate noise and that is what you would find in ATR. It is commonly something that deals with person and personal convintion. When it becomes a body, then it Awo, not meant for someone outside the cirle.

On Osanyin, what can you say about it from the video you watched?

We can discuss on what you saw, observed and warranted questions you feel like asking. . . . .from the video.


Thanks

iamord: Omo! Tomorow don Pass Since.!! I have been Expecting to See your Post

My guy. . . .tomorrow will never come. That is the reality of tomorrow. Lol

sorry for not updating you. I wont lie here, I have forgotten I have a post to reply . Also time has not been by my side. Thanks for calling me out.

mazaje: You are just every where. . .You don't even know what you are saying, lets take death in what ever concept you describes a god and gave it an attribute that it can never die, what do you mean that mother earth can never die?. . In what context do you use the word the earth can never die?. . .saying the earth will never die means it will remain positively active, but that is false. . .A time will come when the earth will not be active meaning it will die, in what ever context that remains false, the earth will die, saying the earth will never die is FALSE. . .Just accept that the attribute you have given to your god has shown that it is false. . .Your mother god based on the attribute you have given it has already debunked it. . .

If Death is activeness, in what context do you think earth will ever die and become inactive?

mazaje: Mother earth as god has been debunked. . .

Your wish. . . .keep deceiving yourself.

mazaje: You are theone actually lying. . .The link you posted does not in any way describes mother earth as a pantheist god but as one of the goddesses among many other gods in greek mythology and other mythologies. . .It even gives her roles and describes her actions. .

This guy is deperate mennnn.

Your lies has not been hiding here . . .you cannot cover it. Never. . . .

You defined Pantheism as:

Pantheism: The belief that nature is god. No supernatural deity is involved in this. Everything in nature is god. . .

https://www.nairaland.com/1855866/why-atheist/8#25574384

Mother earth is defined as:

Mother Nature (some times known as Mother Earth or the Earth-Mother) is a common personification of nature that focuses on the life-giving and nurturing aspects of nature by embodying it in the form of the mother.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Nature

From your definition of pantheism, Nature is God.

From the definition of Mother earth, Nature is god.

Therefore, Mother earth is pantheistic God going by the two definitions.


Your balant lies exposed.

Also I have told you in many cases that pantheism can be fuse into polytheism. . . .something consistute nature and made it up. . . . .each of this thing is natural.


When viewed as each natural entities, it is pantheism fused into polythiesm. .

Viewed as a whole is pantheism . . . .fused into monotheism.

And again, Yoruba spirituality is pagan and at the same time naturalistic pantheism.



Your ignorance and pathetic lies exposed.

mazaje: And what benefit does worshiping nature adds to any body that does that?. . .How does worshiping trees help humans?. . .What about worshiping rain, how does it help humans?. . .

Define worship. . . . . .mumuni.

And with that, you would be able to know how worshipping natural entities evoke our aweness.

Even your co-atheist is spiritually awaken toward natural entities.

It is only a coward would think worship is all about going to church.

mazaje: What is divinity?. . .

1. of or pertaining to a god, especially the Supreme Being.
2.
addressed, appropriated, or devoted to God or a god; religious; sacred:
divine worship.
3.
proceeding from God or a god:
divine laws.
4.
godlike; characteristic of or befitting a deity:

What is divine totality?. . .You are just making things up. . .From wiki it simply says a pantheist describes all that exist as god. . .On these your play on words like divinity and totality brouhaha doesn't appear there. . .

Put your brain into work, you will see that your definition fit in into natural entities.

What cloud your reasoning is that you daydream God as a nigga living behind the wind..

Think and think. . . .if you dont know, tell me and I WILL HELP.

mazaje: So far you have just shown that god actually is nothing but a play on words and just a label, not actually something distinct. . .Sure nature is nature, there is no definition of god in nature labeling nature does not make it god unless i define what god is and how it relates to nature or what role it plays in nature. .Define god, give it a role and attributes and what how it will be shown to be false and non existent. . .What makes nature god?. . .Saying that nature is god means nothing because there is nothing like god in the definition of nature or are pantheist just redefining things and giving them new names?. . .

Lol. . . . .

Do you disbelieve in god (defined pantheistically)?

Do you disbelieve in God (defined as adored, admired and revered person)?

Abeg answer. . . . . .I want to laugh at your . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .

frank317: Guy, enough of these nonsense rantings. who told you twins, heroes, adored person, art gallery and natural entities are God?

Do you care pls check your dictionary?

Take a shift to many conception of God and spiritualities around the world.

Orisha is god (google would helpe you on that).

In yoruba spiritulity, Twins are Orisha. . . .meaning God.

Heroes, adored, admired and inflencial person is God (check your dico)


art gallery is god (check your dictionary).

Natural entities are God (read about Yoruba spirituality, pantheism and spinozism).



This is my help can reach. . . . . .feed yourself from here.

mazaje: When i say god you know very well that i am talking about the theistic definition. . .Now you are back to your nonsense, does this mother earth god of yours only make land green when people sacrifice things to her?. . .There are many green vegetation all over the world where humans do not even visit talk more of offering any sacrifice to any mother earth god there. . .So when I apply fertilizer i am making a sacrifice to mother earth, eh?. . .The problem is when you define your god, give it an attribute and a role, it will be shown to be false. . .The earth as it exist does not need any sacrifice, sacrificing millions of tubers of yam to a desert land like the sahara desert will never make it green. So what role does this yam sacrifice of yours do? how does it apply to the mother earth god, or is the sahara desert not part of the earth? Does your mother earth god only accept sacrifices in some parts and not in others, why or what not?. .Am tired of your mythical tales abeg. . .You are just jumping from one mythology to another. . .applying organic manure to make the land more fertile is now sacrifice to mother earth god abi?. . .

Your dumbness is alarming.. . .

What do you think sacrifice is? Do you care to define it?

Our time are sacrified on land for grazind, out energy are sacrifiecd. . .applying manure to soil is sacrifice. . .investing ones wealth into farming is sacrifce.

I wonder why could act like that coward called logic boy. . . .your reasoning should be expanded. Only a nonentity would think sacrifice ends with giving food to gods.

Guy, this sacrifice best called Ebo in Yoruba has been trashed in Aborisha thread. You can help yourself and do some thinking instead of fooling yourself around.

Something has to be sacrifed for vegetation to take effect on earth. It is not necessary mean we human do it. . . .this is natural law; no cause, no effect.

And again, I cant help you.. . . . .when you know what sacrifice mean, then you will understand how silly you have been coming since.


Good morning.

berem: the smoke from firewood and stove can be very dangerous to health you know.

Can we use gas stove for smoking fish?

I still prefer my arometa wey no dey fall soup.

I love cooking with those old pot. . . .it kind of makes my food delicious.


I also remember my mum dont like grinding pepper with grinding machine. . .if it is not grinding stone, then it your food.


Call it locality. . . . .I enjoy it. More than gas or whatever

mazaje: Are you defining god religiously or socially?. . .Hope that you know that a person who is referred to as god socially is not the same as a religious god? . . .The concept of god you sited pantheistically has already been debunked. . .The attributes you assigned to the god has already shown the god to be false. . .You can not claim god is the earth and also claim it has some separate roles the earth can not play or does not play like accepting sacrifice or eternal. . .What does the earth do with the sacrifices the Yoruba people offer to it?. . .Does it bless them with it?. . .Can We can study the Yoruba race and see if they are more blessed than others that don't offer sacrifice to the earth? the earth is not eternal it will die off some day. . define your god, give it attributes and roles and watch how it will be debunked. . Unlesss if you just change labels then that remains just nothing but play on words. . .

Oh. . . . .religions definition is now what you disbelieve in and not social definition? Lol

god is God. Clarify your position on disbelieve and lets know. Atheism does not have anything to do with definition, you just disbelieve with anything called God either socially or religiously.

Thischasing of tail tatics wont work. . . . .because you will always be turn down to what you are. . . . 'a confused noisemaker'. You ran from declining pantheistic God disbelieve as non-sense. . . You only argued rationally against monotheistic concept of God. . . Now you are saying separating social definition from religion definition. I wonder which category you would put theather gallery which is defined as God.

Atheism is disbelieve in God. It doesnt mention what God is disbelieved on specific. . . .it just negation of God (what so ever it is), which is irrational and not making any sense like you agreed.

Like I remember in those days when I do follow my dad to farm, he will cut a tuber of yam to pieces and spread it on mothe earth. This is sacrifice but scientifically, it is application of manure. I do reason like you are doing now. . .but I know this is reality. . . .and Earth receives sacrifices. Are we not blessed? Is our land not green? This guy must be crazy.


God socially defined is respected Human.

God defined pantheistically is Universe.

God defined spinozistically is Nature.


Do you disbelieve in those God?

I know you will run. .. .from the question.


Label thus exist. It is not possible for nothing to exist. Label is something not nothing. Stop deluding yourself.

I call you by name. . .you are not your name but it is mere tag for identity. If I dont believe in mazaje's word. . . .it then mean I do not believe in your statement. But if mazaje is defined or found to have another meaning or person bearing such name that differs from you, then it mean I have to pinpoint who the mazaje I am referring to is. Afterall, mazaje is just a label which this guy sitting behind computer uses on nairaland. When you say it is nothing, then you should know something is wrong with your reasoning.

mazaje: You keep deluding your self, the mother earth example you gave was not defined as a pantheist god but as a god in polytheism. . . One of the attributes you gave such a god is that it does not die means the god is false the god does not exist because the earth will die, you can not claim the earth is god and give it attributes the earth does not posses. . .define your god and see how it will be show to be false. . .The universe is not god, the universe is the universe. . .changing the name of the universe to mean the invisible pink unicorn doesn't mean it is the invisible pink unicorn it just means you just gave the universe a new label. . .define how the universe is god, its attributes and the role it plays as god and watch how it will be debunked. . So far you have just been tying with out knowing what you are saying. . .The universe exist on its own and it is not any god. . .changing its name to god means nothing. . .

Death means many thing. It doesnt necessarily mean termination of life.

Yoruba would say knife has died. This doesnt mean it has lost it life but mean it is not sharpen. Same Yoruba would say Instead of the earth to die, it will become infertile. Commonsense would show you here that death in this context is not biological. . . . .I dont know why your brain can not be used expansively. There is nothing you debunk or false here, it is just not what you want to see.

Paganism is polytheism and at the same time nature worship. Abeg is nature worship not pantheism? In this case Mother earth is pantheism.

Again, you defined pantheism as Nature worship. . . . .Venerating mother earth is same thing as worshipping nature. This mean Nature worship is pantheism going by your definition. And Mother earth is pantheistic God. It suprise me you can turn the table around with balant lies just because you want to disagree with me. Unfortunately, you keep deluding yourself.

What the pantheist call God is the presence of Divinity in the Totality. To them, there is presence of totality in the universe. . .therefore it is God.

Spinozist like to spell Nature as God. Nature is there own God. Maybe you would go on deluding with yourself that Nature is nature and not God. Meanwhile, God is defined as Nature to them.

Forget about the name, what we are dealing is God. . . . .then believe you have in it when defined.

mazaje: The only thing you have done here is just claim that god is NOTHING but a label. . .The universe is the universe if you chose to label it as god then that is your problem, it is NOT god but the universe. Natural entities are what they are natural entities, a stone is a stone, a tree is a tree. . .You just seem to be speaking from both sides of your mouth, in one sentence you describe the mother earth as a god that accepts sacrifice and never dies, after showing you how false that is you now claim god is just a label. . . . .Now you have shifted god to mean just a tag or a label you give things. . .You are really a joke . . .

See how this old man is living in denial.


When you checked mother earth on wiki, is she not a goddess? Is she not at the same time personified nature? So who is speaking with double mouth when I am drawing my point from a source?

Nothing does not even exist. Been a label, it remains something. The universe and the natural entities are God not because I choose but because I see everything as Divine. Logicboy in his atheism and spirituality thread call the divinity feeling of awe. For been divine, it is God. An admired person is part of Nature defined as God in many dictionaries.

Going by your fallacy, universe does not exist because it just a mere tag of an entity. Word does not even exist. . . .including you mazaje because it is all mental construct. Nothing even exist. . . . This is how dumb your argument is.

So far you claim to be an atheist disbelieving in God, you are entitle to tell us what God is. . . . . . And if at all I am to inform you what God is, I have done that defining God pantheistically and borrowing a definition from the dictionary, I have the right to ask you if you disbelieve in God defined in some concept. The choice is yours. . . .but all you have done is dodge and run away from question. All the way, you shot yourself many times.

Disbelieving in God defined pantheistically is not making sense. . . .this is your words.

Pantheists have defined God as Universe. . . . . You have play the dice and lose completely. . . .this patching helps not. God's particle is a label givin to a particle, you cannot dictate to them for the romoval of God from the label because it doesnot fit to the imaginary being you created out of your head.

God is god until you you define what you disbelieve in and the rest you would believe or until you define god and prove how you disbelieve in all definitions.

Or better stop making joke of yourself

mazaje: What do you mean when you mention god?. . .So far you have been jumping all over the place. . .You just said god is just a label. . .A name you give things. . .That's what you said your self. . .

That is why I asked you to define God. . . . .the white beard nigga you hate to belief. . . .tell me who he is.

I have helped you and sited some conception of God pantheistical and also defined it as label (adored, admired and revered person). . .

So I need to know what and what you are disbelieveing in. And the same word holding another meaning that you refuse to disbelieve.

TheBigUrban2:

Stop stalking me coward.

mazaje: When god is defined and given attributes and roles then it can be shown that all gods are false. . .

Lol

Let me use this logic pls.

Oppoutunity is an idea. . . .when it came knocking at my door, I welcome him in.

^^^oppourtunity here has role, attribute and defined. This you know unless you want to deny.

Oppourtunity does not walk. . . This is mere personification. Does this make my statement false?

Why is it false?

If it not, why do you choose attributes of pantheist god as false?

mazaje: Not true god under pantheism has no role, isn't defined and has no attributes. .. The mother earth you showed was part of other gods in various polytheistic god concepts. . .Even if I am to agree with you on that the attributes you ascribed to such a god shows that it is false and is non existent. . .Example you said mother earth god you said she can not die. . .This is obviously false because the earth will die away in the future. . .The earth exist but not as a god. . .The attributes you have ascribed to your earth mother god shows that it is false and not to be believed. . .Once you ascibe attributes to any god it can be shown to be false. . .

Let me deal with death here.

Agagu other name is kokumo (meaning 'wont die again), does this mean that featured name is false?

I think you would tell me poet are are liars. When they pen down there mind, they include personification, figurative expression and sometime turns love to funny things. . ,making it have roles and ttributes. Does this make love false?

mazaje: god in naturalistic pantheism has no role, isnt defined and has no attributes. . .What are the attributes of the universe as god?. . .What role does it play?. . .The to the naturalist pantheist everything that exist is god, no proper definition, no role and no attributes. . .The universe exist as the universe, doesn't exist as any god. . .List the attributes of your universe god, the role it plays as god and define it properly and i'll show you that it is non existent. . .

Pantheism is not about universe alone. It about TOTALITY. You are right just like Eledumare does not relate with the human race.

Despite, we are part of the whole. . . .ALL IS DIVINE.

This is attribute shey? Lie?

Dont you know the role played by the sun?

mazaje: The questions I ask are very valid, that is the only way to separate god from nonsense. . .When you claim god, you must define it, state its attributes and role so that it can be known and differentiated from other things. . .

From the dictionary, an admired, adored, influencial person is GOD.

To me Fela fits in. . . .can you ask those silly questions when I call fela god?

It is not valid. . .

mazaje: Consciousness is consciousness, it is NOT god. . .God should be shown to exist on its own independent of other things. . saying that your house is god means nothing unless if you define how your house is god, the role it plays as god and its attributes. . .Youir house is your house, it exist as your house and not as any god. . .

Logicboy logic. . .lol

God is not ones name but a title.

People call Car god (ogun).
They call gun, cutlass, knife god (Ogun).

They call palm kernel god (Ikin).

Plants have god name. . . .

Even your mouth is God. . . .

If you go by 'god does not stand independent', then mazaje does not exist because this is a tag and not independent.

Name does not even exist. . . .it is not the something or someone refer to.

Nothing even exist including house.

mazaje: I do not believe in any pantheist god. . The universe exist, but it does NOT exist as god. . .It exist as the universe. . .The earth exist, but it does NOT exist as any god it exist as the earth. . .If you claim the earth exist as god then it is up to you to describe how the earth exist as god, the role it plays as god, its attributes and why you chose to claim it exist as god and not as the earth. . .

Living in denial. . . .lol

The one that said disbelieve in pantheist God is not making sense. . . .

He is here taking the path of logicboy he look away from initially.

Pantheist define God as Everything or Totality.

When a pantheist ask if you believe in God, common sense should let you know he is referring to NATURAL ENTITIES, and not some imaginary being. You are not the one that should dictate what God should be. . . .

Do you disbelieve in God (universe)?

Yes or No?

mazaje: So now god is just a label, and I have wasted all my time discussing with you?. . .What a senseless joke this is. . .

You never wasted your time. And this is not a joke.

God is nobody's name. . . .there is even a particle called God. This is mere label.

Actually you kmow what I mean when I mention God. . . .the nigga you want to disbelieve in

TheBigUrban2:

Put down the weed

Stop been coward

TheBigUrban2: A title doesnt exist.

A rose by any other name is still beautiful

the mane of my boss is rose. . . .she ugly die.

Rose is a tag, doesnt exist.

TheBigUrban2: Go home. You have been debunked.

Get back to your cave. . . . .you lost a feet by your sword.

God can be a title to tangible being. . . .admired, adored or revered person/natural entity. Therefore it exist.

TheBigUrban2: There is a being called the president- . A being that has a tangible existence as a man. A man that exists- we can see, touch, smell, hear the man

There is a supposed being called "God"- A being that no one has seen or felt.

Coward

there is a being called God. . . .twins, heroes, admired, adored person, art gallery, and natural entities. They can be touch, seen and smell. . . . . .

When you believe in president as tangible being, what happenes to God as tangible being?

TheBigUrban2: Then God has no tangible existence just as the title "logicboy".

Gameover.

Just like the title 'president'. . . .does not have tangible existence. In short nothing exist. Does that mean we do not have preseident existing?

TheBigUrban2: Let me mirror your foolish argument

The pink Unicorn is nature.......is there no evidence for nature?



Saying God is nature is a lazy man's argument. What is God?

We can define nature independently of God ie without God.

However, you cant define God without nature. God has no objective existence

God is a name or simply label.

Now tell me how logic boy or other name like God does not exist . . . . .

TheBigUrban2: Pantheist, Deist, polytheist.....whatever the God, there is no evidence for it.

You are just throwing big words and obfuscating.

Mazaje, hope you are seeing this?

God is nature. . . .is there no evidence for nature?

Mother earth is a goddess that represent nature. . . .is there no evidence for nature?

Now I believe atheism is nothing more than the noises reasonable people make in the presence of unjustified religious beliefs.

Your stupidity is alarming. . . . .

mazaje: My point exactly, god under pantheism has no meaning, it isn't well defined, has no role, no attributes and does nothing. . .If you take the pantheistic idea of god and fuse it into another form of theism say polytheism, it makes sense but it no longer becomes pantheism in my opinion. . .Again, if you say the universe is god what does it mean?. . .What role does the universe play as god?. . .What are its attributes?. . .Is it eternal?.. Was it un-created, does it requires worship?. . .Does it give special treatment to those who worship it?.. Is the universe conscious. . .Can the universe perform wonders that are beyond what we know to be natural?. . .What role does it play as god?. . .God under pantheism isn't well defined, has no attributes, has role and does nothing, but when the idea of god under pantheism is put into other form of theism then it makes sense and then can be shown to be true or false, can be believed or disbelieved. . .

In your example with mother earth I can say that such a god can be believed or disbelieved based on the attributes you have ascribed to the god. For example the earth will die some day, the earth is not eternal(even the sun that is responsible for the earths existence will die away someday). So your mother earth god is not to be believed . .atheism can apply here because you have given god a role, which can be studied, verified and a conclusion can be drawn. . .In this case, I can say that even though the earth exist, it doesn't exist as god based on the attributes you have given such a god. . But when you say that the earth is god without any defined attributes and role then I can't disbelief in it or say that atheism applies to it. . ..Hope you get what am saying here?. . .

Good Monday morning. . . . .

We are saying the same thing. . . .but it seem you are doing everything to avoid a crucial point here which is 'God'. Case of definition is exceptional. Atheist who disbelieve in God is confused. . . . .this is when God is defined. That is the whole point which you have been avoiding.

God under pantheism has meaning. . . .it is simply DIVINITY. It has role and attributes. . . .I have shown you Iyale in Yoruba and referenced you to wiki where Mother Earth is been defined with her role. I seriously do not know what else you are looking for.

Paganism is practically nature worship. . . . .deity worship here is pantheistic, bringing us to scientific or naturalistic pantheism. So it like saying naturalistic pantheism is the same thing as nature worship or paganism. This is the bell I, macof and pagan9ja have been ringing into your ears. When God is mentioned in paganism, we are not referring to some imaginary beings but natural entities. You cant fuse pantheism into pagainsm. . .it essentially constitute part of pagan system. Being a pagan is naturalistic or scientific pantheism. . . . . .which God/god in it system you can not disbelieve in.


Th questions you asked are irrational. It has nothing to do with being God. This is some of the fictional attachment you tag to the imaginary being you created out of your brain for the purpose of disbelieve.

God could mean different thing to different people. It pains me that someone like you could be beaten blue with A concept of God. . . .do you mind if I bring in branches of this concept like Panpsychism. Here everything is conscious and God, meaning consciousness is define as God. Would you throw those your incoherent questions to consciousness too? In Egypt, kings are refer to as god, would you throw those unthoughtful questions about this God who is a king?

If you can believe in God (pantheist concept), then you are no more an atheist. . . . .

This is my point exactly.

iamord: Thanks. For the Link. My baba was telling about some war stories and the wonders it did to save them - the ekale people of ondo. And I was surprised that. Such technology exist.. His grand father did not die but after he called all his children together , he gave his blessings and. Warnings, bade them farewell then hit the ground with his palm 3 times then entered and was never seen again.. A lot of stories from african tradition could make hollywood style blockbuster movies. Asides that I want to know, why don't we as african use our powers for good and development. Is the power evil, or are we evil in mind and heart? Today you can hardly find something good to speak of.. Only tales of past glory.. I believe that the atr is promising and like a gold mine yet to be untapped, and it also plays a key role in the development of a country. But is not being utilized.. we need to change the way we think as a people.. there has to be a shift as to the way we do things over here. I will like u to educate me more on capabilities of osayin tho!

I just cant do but like this your post. It is lovely. It is weekend and guy must roll long with pals you know. . .

Would reply you tomorrow

MrPresident1: Many represented as One. In perfect unity.

Go figure.

On the other side, it remains MANY.

mazaje: Sure. . .If you explain the role mother earth plays, her attributes and if she is a personification of some things. . .But if you say that the earth is god, then an atheist can not disbelieve that. . .When you turn the role of earth as a mythical figure then an atheist can disbelieve in that. . .

Mythical figure is simply a creative attachment to natural entities expressed through mythology.

Have you seen Oriki (praises) once? Some family praise their child as if the child is flying in the sky. . . . .this does not mean that child does not exist.

Kings are mostly refer to as God. . . .this does not mean kings do not exist.

Going by this and what you posted in that quote, believe in God/god is no more atheism.

Those who claim to be an atheist yet believe in God are just confused. . . .you are included.

mazaje: You call your self an atheist yet you also believe in the existence of some gods, what does that make you?. . .I don;t care about the opinion of wiegraf or logic boy. . .atheism doesn't have to be defined by you because you don't even know what you are saying. . .Pantheism doesn't apply to atheism because natural pantheist are atheist. . .The defination of god is very different, atheism can not apply to some definition of god, if you say the natural universe is god, atheism can not apply to it, but if you say that Brahma is a god that came from Buri and controls the whole world as a supreme being then atheism can apply to such a god idea. . .Some god ideas are meaningless when it comes to atheism. . You just want to drag this on and on. .I will not respond to this any more from now. . .

I am a spiritual atheist. . . . There is clear difference between that and traditional atheism.

Why would you decline the opinion of your comrades who are atheist. . . .declining them mean you are either confused or they are confused.

Saying atheism is Disbelieve in some God and believe in other Gods contradicting your comrades who defined atheism as disbelieve in all God shows you are all confused. I guess this is the reason you are avoiding the question. . . .you do not want your a z z out. . . .

Lol

mazaje: What is god in pantheism?. . .Which role does the universe play as god?. . .What are its attributes?. . .How does the universe as god affect humans?. . .What do you mean when you say the universe is god as a pantheist?. . .What does god mean in pantheism?. . .

Read about mother earth. . . .there your answers lie.

mazaje: A natural pantheist does not believe in prayer and spirituality. . .naturalism by definition discards and disregards spirituality. .What are you saying?. . .

Wrong. . . .

Spiritualism is natural. Do some reading about that.

Aborisha thread opened by me have answers to this.

mazaje: According to polytheistic conceptions of god which your wikipideia entry talks about mother earth as a role among the other gods, polytheism is not pantheism. . .what role does mother earth play as a pantheist god?. .What is the role of mother earth as a pantheistic god?. . .

Guy what are you saying?

You defined patheism and pinched it with Mother Earth. I have shown you this in the previous post. Stop making . . . .of yourself.

Polythiesm is interwoven with pantheism. Most of the god in polythiesm are pantheistic. . . . .I.e representation of natural elements.

Gods in Yoruba spirituality (polythiestic) are representation of natural elements. . . .the totality is Eledumare. . .

mazaje: What is god in pantheism?. . .The universe is god means what?. . .How is the universe god?. .What are the attributes of the universe as god? .what role does the universe play as god?...what do you mean when you say that the universe is god? When you provide answer to this question then I'll show you how atheism can not apply to pantheism. . .By the way you claim to believe in some gods yet you call your self an atheist are you not confused?. . .

Atheism is not about the universe only. It is all about TOTALITY seen as GOD. Pan and theos.

I am a spiritual atheist so not confused.

mazaje: This is a false opinion of the writer, how again how is Hinduism a pantheistic religion when it advocates personal deities and supreme beings?. . .Where in the hindu doctrine does it claim that the earth is god or that the universe is god?. . .You just go about copying bogus claims from websites that don't even know what they are talking about. . .

Guy I know what I am talking about. . . . .

Hinduism originally is Sanatana Dharma. Do you care to know what that mean?

http://www.swamij.com/sanatana-dharma-what-is.htm

It is pantheistic.

Pantheism is traceable from some of the more ancient Vedas and Upanishads to vishishtadvaita philosophy. All Mahāvākyas (Great Sayings) of the Upanishads, in one way or another, seem to indicate the unity of the world with the Brahmam. It further says “This whole universe is Brahman, from Brahman to a clod of earth."

Not only that it says there is only one God; it says that everything in this universe are manifestations of God. In Hinduism, there is no the concept of "creation" in the literal sense of the word. It is God who becomes or manifests as the universe. The universe is not different from God. Everything is God. So, the devotee can take anything which appeals to him as a form of God, and worship Him. The exact name and form do not matter. The attitude and sincerity is what matters.

Similarly a Hindu does not worship a tree or a hill just because it is a tree or a hill. The tree or hill is considered a symbol of God and it is the transcendent God who is worshipped through the natural objects. It is the Creator who is worshipped through the creation.

It is generally asserted that Hindu religious texts are the oldest known literature that contains Pantheistic ideas. In Hindu theology, Brahman is the unchanging, infinite, immanent, and transcendent reality which is the Divine Ground of all things in this Universe, and is also the sum total of all that ever is, was, or ever shall be.

Though it is both pantheistic and panentheistic. There are different schools of thought. Acc. to Advaita, (non-dualism), 'Aham BrahmAsmi' (I am God), all creation are manifestations of that One god/BrahmaN. This is similar to buddhism in 'Universal consciousness'. one worships to that manifestation of nature/god's qualities in their appealing form/icons. This is pantheistic.

But, most aphorisms/upanishads, describe that BrahmaN is in the heart of every creation and exists beyond as the Supreme Being, which is Panentheistic. One can accept any form of god as BrahmaN/creator and/or worhsip any number of deities. [Both monotheistic/ polytheistic].


http://www.himalayanacademy.com/basics/tenq/tenq_1.html

mazaje: The problem is no where in the link does it even suggest that mother earth is a pantheist goddess. . .You are just lying here again. . ,The linbk you posted actually talks about mother earth as one of the many gods of the Greek pantheon for example. .

here we see mother earth as one of the polytheist goddess. . .You are not even reading what you are posting. . .Now where does it even suggest that mother earth is a pantheistic god. . .Again my question still stands how is the earth a god in pantheism?. . .God to whom and what?. . .What role does mother earth play in pantheism, so far you have only posted a link that talks about the role mother earth plays among other polytheistic gods. . .

Did you missed this post?

https://www.nairaland.com/1855866/why-atheist/8#25697007

You defined patheism as nature viewed as god. . . . . Mother earth is nature personifed as God. One thing is when I stated that Mother Earth is pantheistic God, you declined this but your definition is here showing I was right. One thing you failed to realise is that pantheism is interwoven with and has a strong effect in polytheism and monotheism.

Here is a definition by http://www.gotquestions.org/pantheism.html

Pantheism is the supposition behind many cults and false religions (e.g., Hinduism and Buddhism to an extent, the various unity and unification cults, and “mother nature” worshippers).""

Is this not Mother Earth, a pantheist God, in ancient tradition which is polytheistic.

Your expresseion in the link above even showed Mother God is pantheistic.


I know whats wrong, you dont wanna agree with me. . . .so you turn down all facts from me.



Lol


but i enjoy the breaking of bones.

Again, you are in here with epsitle. . . .I will have to break this in different quote so that I may give a direct comment.

mazaje: Pantheism has no place in christianity, stop going to bogus websites to get nonsense, we all know the role of god in christianity, christianity is e very monotheistic religion, any other claim about it being a pantheistic religion remains yours and also remains a lie. . .In the course of this discussion I have clearly given you the definition of god according to it and your only reply was that you know someone that says it also means energy, i really do not know what to do with that nonsense. . .From the link you posted it clearly talks about ow christianity is not a pantheistic religion. . .

The clearest biblical arguments against pantheism are the countless commands against idolatry. The Bible forbids the worship of idols, angels, celestial objects, items in nature, etc. If pantheism were true, it would not be wrong to worship such an object, because that object would, in fact, be God. If pantheism were true, worshipping a rock or an animal would have just as much validity as worshipping God as an invisible and spiritual being. The Bible’s clear and consistent denunciation of idolatry is a conclusive argument against pantheism

Sir, we are getting ourselves wrong. I know very sure my case is the choise of words and with this, you missed my whole target.

Christianity does not support pantheism as well as atheism but that does not mean we do not have pantheistic christians or christian atheism.

Christianity does not support astrology but we have christian who do. . . . .they always point their hands into the bible for evidence of astrology. In this sense, each character represent celestial body or an event represent a natural event.

Christianity do support one God but withing the bible, we were told there are Gods, been worship according to each nation.

In this very bible, I can go on and prove to you that christianity embrace Idolatory. Though doctrine of today might not support in anymore.

Same goes with pantheism and christianity. . . . .ask yourself this question. . . .when Jesus is explained as the Sun while lucifer is planet venus, hades expressed as pluto. . .. Is this not pantheism?

mazaje: You seem to be all over the place, you did not even read the link you posted, it says the central philosophical scriptures of hinduism are pantheistic but they religion it self is not pantheistic but Panentheistsic. . . There is a difference btw pantheism and Panentheistism they are not the same. . . In pantheism there is no such thing as a personal deity. God is the same with the universe, humans are parts of it, but in Hinduism there is a personal god. . .Hindus worship god or many gods and consider them to be personal. .. How is Hinduism a pantheistic religion when it believe in personal deities and supreme beings?. . .

I think the bold clarify me here. Mazaje, we get over each other because I think you just want to disagree with me.

Panenthiesm is another form of pantheism. It like mentioning christianity and you said it is not the same with celestial church of christ maybe because they have a distinct difference in doctrine which negate christianity. E,g, the worship of angels.

In Hinduism like you agree, pantheism is contain in the central philosophical structure. . . .also like mentioned in some site, it made it into Hindi scripture (vedas).

You also agree that pantheism is not supported in Hindu religion BUT this religion persay is more panentheism (another form of pantheism).

If panentheism is a form of pantheism. . . . .cant we then say that Hindism is pantheistic?

Am I wrong mentioning that Hinduism is pantheistic while panentheism which it really is is another form of pantheism?







Let us be clear on panthiesm cutting across christianity and Hinduism

mazaje: Let me just make it clear. . .

Pantheism: The belief that nature is god. No supernatural deity is involved in this. Everything in nature is god. . .

Theism: The belief in a personal god(s), generally described by different religious doctrines. This god(s) is/are a supernatural deities and is/are separate from nature, created and controls nature and have many other attributes(Omnipotent, omniscience, benevolent etc ). . .

How can atheism apply to pantheism when god simply isn't well defined, has no role, has no attributes and does nothing?. . .What is the role of god in pantheism?. . .does the have supernatural powers in pantheism for example?. . .i just want us to get some things straight. . .

Dude I think we are getting somewhere. . . . .though you might not agree with me but it seem I can lead you there, and we are getting there.


You defined patheism as nature viewed as god. . . . . Mother earth is nature personifed as God. One thing is when I stated that Mother Earth is pantheistic God, you declined this but your definition is here showing I was right. One thing you failed to realise is that pantheism is interwoven with and has a strong effect in polytheism and monotheism.

Pantheistic God on it own has no basic ground but when it is moved to other form of theism, you will find answers to many meanings it has tied to it. All those attributes of God you have enlisted in your description of theism God are mere mental creative attachment to the God meant. . . . .these are just figurative expression.


Now let go down a little. Pantheism from what I have learnt stands not alone. It is system of some religion, pagan especially. . . .well I might be wrong though.

Considering the role of Pantheist God, it is abundant on the wiki page where Mother Earth is explain. She is meant to nurture lifes. That is her primary role. There might be other roles in other spirituality but in Yoruba, she is Iyá Ilè or better put iyálè. She is known as the mother of everything on earth, she guides person to blessing which she stored in her house, her children plays on her and her wrath could lead to eating them.

Here is an excerpt of prayer dedicated to Iyale

Iba ta pebe owo
Iba apebe ese
Iba akoda
Iba aseda
Iba ojiji ateleni mo dehin ti o se mu so
Ile ogere afoko yeri , alapooka je kaye o tu wa, ka gbe ori re se rere o
Ero ni tigbin
Ero ni ti koko lagbala
Ero pese ni ajo aye gbogbo wa yio je o
KO TU 'BA, KO TU 'SE
IRE

Macof and PASTORAIO could pls help with translation. There are some words I cant get direct english for there.

But this is what I could make from it.

Praises to palm
praises to underfoot
Praises to the first mother to be
Praise to the mother of all creatures
Praises to shadow, ones escort that cannot be tie down
Praises to Mother Earth who direct nature, combing her hair with hoe, who owns a large store, grant us life to prosper
People of Igbin

. . . . .

She also stands witness between two or more parties making covenant.

When an oath is made, there is this common saying, ' we have eaten with Ile, we have drink with her, we must not stand on her belly and backslide, those who betray would be punish by Ile.


She cannot die

she receive sacrifices.

These are what I can remember, I will mention Macof to help me more on this.

These are roles, you can pick her attribute there.

On the question of if Mother earth is supernatura, it depend on what you mean by supernatural. In Ikale, they believe Mother earth beats person. . . .'ilelu'. They also believe Ile can be prayed to or manipulated for a course. I don have explanation for this though.

iamord: Pls can u enlighten me more on the capabilities of osayin. An ondo babalawo ttold. Me some intersting stories about it

Heya, the tsunami that hitted nairaland deleted a beautiful thread created about Osanyin.


What is the story you want to know about it?

You can enjoy this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LIPimX-ZiCY and ask your question later on.

mazaje: In have provided answer to you already and am tired of your incoherence. . .Atheism does not apply to pantheism because pantheism itself is atheism in some cases, i have gone all the way to provide scholarly opinion that states that considers atheism and pantheism to be the same or very closely related. . .Some atheist consider themselves to be pantheist...a naturalist pantheist is an atheist. . .Atheism makes sense only with theism and not pantheism since pantheism is closely related to atheism, if you don't understand that then i can not help you. . .

Lol

Mazaje doing everything to avoid his as s exposure.

Pantheism is simply Pan + theos which mean everything is God. In this sense, there substance of BELIEVE in God. One fascinitaing fact is that in some cultures, this God has variations, they are personified and plays a role. In other cultures, this Gods are prayed to, rituals are made for them, they are idolized, some mades it into sacred texts and accounts. A very good example is Mother Earth.

Atheism simple is No God/god. In this sense, an atheist DISBELIEVE in all God/gods. This mean to say that they have nothing to do wherever God is involve.

I wont deny the fact that atheist can be pantheist. This is the same reason we have christian atheism but this does not mean pantheism and atheism are the same.

- Pantheism deals with God. Atheism got no biz with God.

- Patheism defines God, atheism do not but touches all form of God.

- patheism believe, atheism disbelieve.

- patheism involves some spiritual activities like prayer, ritual and attaching roles to their God, atheism negate all of this.

- pantheism sees nature and the universe as God, atheism sees nature and universe as what it is. . . . No divinity whatsoever.


So tell me how are they the same?



Now that you have said atheism is the disbelieve in ONLY theistic God/gods. . . . . .do you mean to tell me pantheism is not form of theism?

Be specifc, what form of theism are you reffering to?

If you mean to say not all form of theism, do you realise that is no more atheism?

mazaje: . . .Hinduism is a a theistic religion that has a supreme god figure. . .Hinduism is NOT a pantheist religion stop making things up. . .

Hindus have a multitude of gods and goddesses that symbolize the one abstract Supreme Being or Brahman. The most fundamental of Hindu deities are the Trinity of Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva

http://hinduism.about.com/od/godsgoddesses/tp/deities.htm

Hindus actually have a central supreme being they call god. . .It is NOT a pantheist religion stop making things up. .

So much I wish to ignore this, I think I wont give you the chance of shouting me down with your ignorance. The last time you did this was when you said panthiesm has no intake in christianity. I had to look away from it becuase that is not where are heading to. Simple google search can help you in cases like this. Just search and if nothing comes up, argue against me instead of embarrassing yourself here.


Here is an excerpt from http://www.pantheism.net/paul/

""The central philosophical scriptures of Hinduism are pantheistic. Many atheists and humanists may be naturalistic pantheists without realizing it.

To the rich history of Pantheism, represented by thinkers and readings from every tradition - from Hinduism, Buddhism and Taoism to ancient Greece, Rome, Islam and Christianity - and every age, from the sixth century BC to the present day. For completeness, some Christian, Moslem and Jewish panentheists have been included. Panentheists believe that God is greater than the universe, but is alsointhe universe and nature.""

another here http://www.gotquestions.org/pantheism.html

""Pantheism is the supposition behind many cults and false religions (e.g., Hinduism and Buddhism to an extent, the various unity and unification cults, and “mother nature” worshippers).""

Read more here http://naturalpantheist./2012/11/23/hindu-pantheism/

mazaje: . . .Mother earth is god meaning what?. . .What the hell is mother earth?. . .The earth is a planet. . .How is it god?. . .God in what sense?. . .What do you mean that the earth is god?. . .What role does the earth play as god?. . .The earth is god to whom and what?. . .

Pls say us this your ignorant rants.

As you can read up there, Mother Nature is same thing as Mother earth which is a pantheist Goddess. In Yoruba,she is Orisha Iyale.

Read about it here http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mother_Nature

she is being prayed to,rituals made to them and seen as Goddess in deffrent cultures and religion across the world.


Will you as an atheist disbelieve in goddess (mother earth)?

mazaje: So logic boys opinion is now fact?. . .Are you mad?. . .

Am not mad sir

At least he speaks some truths.

atheism is a lack of belief in god or gods. that includes spinoza's or pantheists.

If atheism is the disbelief in all God/gods, were you not the one that said disbelieve in pantheistic god is not making sense?

Wiegraf said an atheist that believe in god is confused. . . . .you believe in pantheists god therefore you are no more an atheist.

This is simple.

mazaje: You keep lying, atheism does not deal with pantheism since pantheism does not define god in a way that the atheist can disbelief in it that is why many pantheist are atheist. . .Atheism only deals with theism and not pantheism, how many time have i told you that. .

atheism simply is No God. Not no theism.

Pantheism is there is God.

How does this relate?

mazaje: A natural pantheist is an atheist. . .

true. But would be spiritual when prayer and others comes in.

mazaje: Now let me tell you show you why the pantheist definition of god has no defined role. . .If the universe is god, what does it mean?. . .The universe is god to whom and what?. . .How is the universe god?. . .What does it mean when you say that the universe is god?. . .

Read little about mother earth, she has role.

mazaje: Atheism can only apply to the concept of theistic god and gods. .

Then it is not more atheism.

mazaje: Not pantheistic god since the pantheistic god has no role and defined role. . You just keep jumping from one place to another including lying that some patheistic religions have gods when they clearly do not. . the universe exist. . .How can I disbelief in it?. . .A theistic god can Yahweh or the hindu goddess Shiva can be be disbelieved under theism based on their attributes. . .

When you believe in pantheist God, you are no more an atheist.


That is very simple.