₦airaland Forum

aManFromMars: Reacting like the average atheist... what a fool and a waste of time. Enjoy your Ifa. Use am build aeroplane with crash proof jazz..

I wonder what your scientific knowledge has yield your people and whole Africa. Silly brat.


The Revolution is coming from Yoruba spirituality. We are awaken and ready to walk through the part of enlightenment. You can continue to sleep in ignorance and dream thinking you are living in reality.

Japan, India and china are moving on their path....it good for them. You can till end of time walk in another man's path. That has been nature of lost jew......who trashed his ancestors for western thought.

barack_o_handso: Except I'm getting something wrong, Buddhism is a RELIGION.

Ifa on the other hand is Yoruba's ancestral heritage. Your studying it as an atheist is loyalty on your part as a Yoruba, but as you being an atheist, it's like wanting to eat your cake and still having it.

Interesting though

buddhism is more philosophical than religion.

You are embarrassing yourself here. Why cant you read some stuff before talking out of ignorance?

Yoruba spirituality is 'naturalistic pantheism'. Go and read about that and it coexistence with atheism. Even Dawkin said pantieism is 'sexed up' atheism. Pls get some books.

Stop fooling around

okeyxyz: Suddenly you have turned from bashing christianity to bashing the igbo, yet again distracting from the beauty of this thread. Maybe you are incapable of understanding that I don't need to be yoruba to enjoy/learn yoruba spirituality/mythology. I hope whatever you write next would be in promoting more learning of what the OP has started, instead of looking for a fight with christianity of with igbos. Cheers.

Heya. You won cry huh.....sorry

Be the man and stop hiding behind innocence. You were the one that first insult me on this thread. I have shown you way to reorganize yourself and stop been lost generation. Go back to your history.

Amanfrommars has been barking after me because I embrace yoruba spirituality. He said your ancestors were dumb. Mine were not so go follow your dumb descendants of dumb ancestors.

Dont curse the dark.....light the candle in it.

Obviously, some folks will be seeing this as mythical story. Nope, it is not....our ancestors has explained evolution spiritually to their knowledge. So instead of seeing the personify forces, you look beyond what you see.

Obatala means chief of white cloth. It is symbolic and more than cloth. White clothe symbolize light. Physics teaches that the first manifestation of dynamics in the universe was light.

Olokun is salty water which arose after the ice meltdown and turn to liquid water after she meant with Obatala....light.

The chain used by Obatala to travel from the Realm of the Ancestors to Earth appears to be a symbolic representation of the structure used to transmit genetic information from one generation to the next. The genetic code that is used to form each species is passed through a biochemical substance called DNA. When DNA is viewed under a microscope it appears as a double helix, which is similar to the pattern of a chain. In Ifa scripture the reference to the Realm of the Ancestors includes all those Natural Forces that led to the development of human life and is not limited to human form. In Western science that DNA which exists in mammals is believed to be an extension of a chain of transmission from single cell life forms at the bottom of the ocean to complex life forms that populate the earth. This was put in primodial soup....this is the reason Ifa call Olokun the mother of all life.

When Obatala climbs down the chain towards land, he takes soil a from snail shell. The shape of the snail shell is a pattern that recurs throughout Nature. The early Greeks called this pattern the “Golden Mean”. It is a series of expanding circles that get progressively larger at a steady rate. This growth pattern occurs in trees, plants, and sea life. It is the same pattern that regulates the distance of planets from the sun. The snail shell as a sacred object associated with Obatala symbolized the expansive quality of evolution.

Those who are versed in science can look up to this and find some senses.

@OP......pls stop calling this myth. It is not myth but spiritual hypothesis.

Ori wa a gbe wa o.

okeyxyz: Nice. Every once in a long while, nairaland surprises me by producing a beautiful thread like this one. Welldone @OP. Unfortunately The two idiots above me have already started trolling this thread and causing a distractions from learning yoruba tradition/mythology/spirituality/ancestry. Please if you wanna bash christianity(as usual) go create a separate thread instead of digressing this one.

Now I wish somebody would create an igbo version of mythology.

Ooman is a yoruba guy. Im a yoruba too. Whats wrong in finding sense in our spirituality?

This is yoruba not Igbo....the lost generation jew. Your language, culture, traditional and spirituality is lost.....dont troll here and go find your world.

aManFromMars: Chi is whatever you want it to be. Been reading up on Odinani for a long time, and at first the similarities between Esu of Ifa and Ekwensu of Ifa was striking.

That being said, I still recognise it for what is -folklore, though it does strike some kind of resonance with me as it's a part of my ancestry. You, on the other hand, believe IFA has a lot to offer. No wahala. I have no qualms with that.

Come out with reasonable discussion. I dont believe in Ifa....i know it. Ode.

Whatever is folklore to you in your tradition will be folklore and will go extinct like folklore.

Ifa is not folklore, it body of knowledge. What is in Ifa is coded and symbolic. I dont curse the dark, I light the candle in it.

Your own ancestors are dumb.....they cant reason.....live with that.

ifeness: Alfa is definitely right,everything is conscious, be it dead plants,rocks,mountains,everything contains consciousness. I have met Africans in the Uk,France,U.S who are strongly into Africa Spirituality. It was an African American who enlightened Fela Kuti spiritually ,she cleared his path toward Africanism,he became possessed by a new energy that made him tackle the foundational problems of Nigeria. As we can see,he became an indestructible force even years after his death because he became in-tune with his divine self,he became a God.

Africanism is the way to go for Africans. We are definitely Africans for a reason. I know we have our differences,but at least we can solve our problems better the African ways. Cultures evolve,even the Europeans were cannibals at some point. Africans have greatness encoded in their DNA,i see no reason why we cannot be great again.

Ogun will lead us through
Ifa will give us the knowledge. Ase

ooman: Actually, this story made more evolutionary sense than the bible's creation story that says everything was completed, which means everything should be static, but land continue to form from the ocean. I wonder why people can't see this.

This is an atheist with thinking cap on.

@OP. Pls after the story, kindly break it down to our age. Those names are symbolic. Good job you doing bro

barack_o_handso: Yeah I get it. You love its philosophy but technically Buddhism is monotheism. You say Sam Harris is an atheist that supports Buddhism, but he's not a Buddhist right?

Ifa followers treat it as theism.

which buddhism is monotheism? Guy go read some books.

Religion has corrupted Ifa. It a philosophy and spirituality. Have you ever seen Eledumare shrine?

aManFromMars: He's yet to realize he's also corrupting Ifa.

Im not a slave lost in the land of no return. Go bring up chi of your land.

barack_o_handso: @ Folykaze, you make 'Ifa' sound interesting.
And you're an atheist

Ifa is a philosophy. There is nothing attached to it.

Buddhist in japan are mostly atheist. Same to those practising Jainism.... Sam Harris is a well renowned atheist who support buddhism. So why wouldn't I investigate and embrace my tribe spirituality and philosophy?

Quit right, I understand that some dogma where brought into it.....also some of it philosophy were corrupted by westerners. They turn everything to demon and monster. We need to get rid of this.....

I have always been an Africa by race and also Yoruba by tribe. I cant deny my ancestry origin and heritage for person. To demonize African spiritualism for foreign religion dogma or been a modernized jewish and arab puppet is like been a reform slave and living life full of illusion.


To be converted you have to destroy your past, destroy your history. You have to stamp on it, you have to say 'my ancestral culture does not exist, it doesn't matter.'
V. S. Naipaul

^^^^ would that speak well of christians and muslims?


To forget one’s ancestors is to be a brook without a source, a tree without a root.
-- Chinese Proverb


People will not look forward to posterity, who never look backward to their ancestors.
Edmund Burke


Africa lead the front of world civilization in history. If African intellect and educative ones emancipate themselves, awake and walk back to spirituality and belief in self, we can rule world civilization again. My spiritual journey has shown me that more knowledge to add to science and technological development are embedded in Traditional spirituality. We have to revolutionalise and rebuild our society (politically, socially, econominally, spiritually and technologically). We all need to walk back to our origin...... ....if and only we want to be free from every oppression and slavery. This works for Asian nations, I belief it will work for us too.

PAGAN 9JA:
Yes I realised that. You have a Pagan mindset.




Yes probably. It is not acquired. It is your inbuilt sense.



Sure. I have explained sacrifices briefly on previous occassions. Im sure you read about it?

Its a slightly different area though interconnected doubtless.



Yes thats right.

I dont like tagging african spirituality as pagan. I think 'naturalistic pantheism' should serve well. Ifa is Ifa, those who practise it should be called with it.

Also my ancestors live a trait in me. They live in me. Denying them is pure stupidity.

Intuition is Eshu to me. Lol

Pls can you provide me links on sacrifice/incantation? I need to read up something on that

PAGAN 9JA:
First of all I would like to thank FOLYKASE for creating this topic. My friends, it is these matters that we must discuss. This is TRUE RELIGION. TRUE MOSTE ANCIENTE AND POTENT SPIRITUALITY and we must focus on this. and not on how many virgins will you get when you go to heaven or whether eve bit the apple or not.



Ok now I would like to tell you fellow comrades, not to confuse life with consciousness. I think there must be another term invented for what OP is trying to convey.

I personally below that everything in this Universe, be it rock or plant or animal or planet. Everything has its own energy/driving force. Everything is random, yet the randomness exists for a purpose. Therefore everything has a purpose and was created by the Creator God/Force for a purpose. And this inner energy present in all things that "exist", i.e., matter, is what gives it its own consciousness.

The matter doesn't need a brain or to be alive for that. It just has own inner energy that gives it a purpose, which indirectly gives it its own consciousness.

Now. from personal experience. For idol worshipers especially. You will notice that praying through an idol over time, gives the rock itself a higher meaning. IT gives it an aura. Or also if you hear accounts from Haj pilgrims who have been near the Ka'aba or even who had the privilege to be inside it. Their 6th sense can feel the energies emanating from the rock/block structure. Side reactions include emotional-breakdown, etc. It doesnt have to be a reaction too. IT can be just the feeling of a "presence". Now does it strengthen its existing energy (since we pour our Spiritual energies into it) ? Or does it gain new energies?
Honestly I don't know. Its all open to discussion. There are many factors interconnected here.

My aim is pointed at paganism or traditional spirituality. Im getting to understand new things.

What is this sixth sense.....could it mean 'intuition'?

I will like us to discuss about animal sacrifice/ sacrifices and incantation one of this days. This thread just open door into it.

Back to discussion....if I should get you right, do you mean since objects embodied energy, it then become conscious?

Alfa Seltzer: Yes. Also note that its individual cells are still alive and react consciously.

Thanks Alfa

You save me from some days ago headache. Lol

Alfa Seltzer: Of course there is unconsciousness. You can only be conscious of that which affects you. At the same time you are unconscious of the rest. Take this example of someone that is knocked "unconscious". In that state, his whole being stops being aware of the environment around him meaning he is unconscious of it and doesn't react to it. But if you beam an MRI in his brain and prod him with a stick, you can see some electric reactions in the brain showing that there is a consciousness which as I said before is "alien" to our current understanding of it. So even though parts of him are still conscious of and react, to us he is very unconscious.

To make my self clear, the whole person is differenciated from parts of him. I.e, the whole is unconscious but individual parts have varying levels and types of consciousness.

Lets take for example when snake is dead. At this point, the system breaks down. But on it body, there will be some form of reaction on it skin when the sun shine on it. Also there are form of movements in it body due to some chemical reactions. Can we say this is consciousness as in the form of reaction?

Infomizer: They are not alive (hence the term, inanimate). Nevertheless, they are active just as Alfa Seltzer averred as they contain particles that are in constant motion. To answer your question about unconsciousness, I'll say no. It is just a state of the observer not being able to discern the 'conscious' state of the observed. A corpse is thus not 'unconscious' because it is continuously interacting with the environment at the sub-atomic level. It is not alive, but active!

I cant say anymore. This is Epic. Thanks for sparing your time and energy on this thread

Infomizer: Thanks a million bro. You have really educated me on the subject matter. It is indeed an eye opener. I'll do my own readings though. Can you recommend any bookshop in particular?

Anywhere in Lagos or Ibadan or on amazon. Though I prefer you buy from store comparing the price

ifeness: Yes you are right on the radio waves analogy. The brain is similar to a remote control(inanimate) . Inanimate objects like robots can be active when batteries(which contains energy) are inserted into them.The human heart can in some cases be on a battery support,due to lack of energy flow. That is why the Hindu tradition encourages Yoga; which helps with the free flow of energy in the body. Cars are also a typical example...in the nearest future,cars will be able to move without the support of humans and there goes man(creators) creatively creating once again.

Looking at the amount of knowledge hidden in the African traditions,i have not doubt they once ruled the world. Alexandra the not-so-great had to live in the ancient Egyptian Library in order to accumulate so much knowledge. I learnt a bit of Ifa from my African American friend. He is very good at explaining them.

Erm.....what can you say about consciousness as 'reaction' as Alfa explain it?


I was inspired last year when I meant one African American in Osun festival. She is damn brilliant in Ifa divination. We had lot of discussion and was made to know that im empty vessel. She ignited my spirit which made me research again.
I see African in diaspora as knowledgeable folks. We at home are completely brainwashed

Alfa Seltzer: Yes. Everything is conscious. The problem we are having is that we are defining their own consciousness based on our own. We don't know how they express their consciousness but it is there. How do I know? Because everything reacts to something. I am reacting to this thread because I am conscious of it. My typing on my keyboard is my own way of expressing this consciousness. A stone hit with a hammer reacts. A piece of paper but inside a bottle reacts; may even change colour to express this reaction. This is what I call being conscious. It is very different from being alive or being able to think.

Hmmm. Satan indeed is knowledge. Lol.

This is the angle I drive to. To me, Conscious mean react and alive mean active.

But let me ask. if conscious means reaction, then there shouldn't be anything like unconsciousness....no?

Infomizer: You imply that 'consciousness' in the sense of this thread sure results in 'consciousness' in the dictionary sense and I agree with that. However, the reason it does not apply to stones and plants is the same reason why our culinary preferences are different from those of anthropods.

Do you agree inanimated objects have some form of consciousness and are alive? How?

Infomizer: FOLYKAZE can you please recommend some books on yoruba mysticism and spirituality so that i can get a grasp of what it really entails. I must say there is a gross misconception about what it really is, thanks to movies. I have never seen these gods in the light you paint 'em on nairaland.

Firstly, note that nollywood is just anti-spirituality. They depict spirituality as evil and western beliefs as good. Also lot of concept were not explain vividly. It movie that completely delude us to think witch are flying human, Eshu is devil and Eledumare is anthropomorphic being living in the sky. Well it completely wrong. You can check about spirituality here

Get some books written by Wande Abimbola

- Ijinle Ohun Enu Ifa Apa Kini and Apa Keji

- “Secrecy and Objectivity in the Methodology of Ifa Divination”, (with Barry Hallen), inSe crecy: African Art that Conceals and Reaveals, Museum of African Art, New York, 1993.

- Ifa: An Exposition of Ifa Literary Corpus (Oxford University Press, Ibadan, 1977).

- Awon Oju Odu Mereerindinlogun (University Press Limited, Ibadan, 1977).

Lovetinz: I disagree.
Consciousness is not a result of those interactions. The opposite is true.
Those interactions are trying to adapt to the present (in these case, earthly) demands of consciousness.

Thanks for the correction.

Im arguing base on his definition from the dictionary. If he stated that only sensory and animate object can be conscious and also be aware of there environment through experience. Then the job is chemical reaction in the brain.

Let me ask you......is consciousness a form of energy or energy itself?

ifeness: I must say this is one of the best thread i have experienced on a Nairaland. A thread where people think for themselves without references. Keep it up guys!

I was forced to open this thread since my atheist pals are barking at me because I embrace spirituality.

Non of them show up here.

ifeness: Yes Experience within Existence/Consciousness. The Sun,Moon,Stars that we see, including fellow humans are all experiences within Existence. The brain which is an antenna for consciousness interprets matter in an infinite numbers of ways. So i guess you are right, the sun is beings interpreted by the brain in a way it help with vision during the day.

The yorubas spirituality is fascinating to me too. ELEDUMARE or Olodumare means the unifying Energy and it follows the law of conservation which says: Energy could neither nor destroyed. It can only shift from one form to another( which we all are). The first transformation is the Ori (consciousness),the Orishas :The 4001 gods are symbols of different energies. They were personified to enhance better understanding. Example shongo symbolises illumination and courage, Obatala symbolises wisdom and maturity,oshun symbolises the nurturing energy.

Over the years people have forgotten that Eshu is only an energy within everyone of us. They curse and abuse it without knowing it means the choice between good and evil. Eshu symbolises a cross road basically.

The next transformation is the plant and animal,then humans. Yoruba cosmology support evolution in a lot of sense,only that they are more aware and have a better understanding of nature than Darwin.

Bravo.

Lets go a little further on consciousness. Can we further say that consciousness exist outside the brain? And permit me to use this analogy, radio frequency is there wide within space and time so there is apparatus for detecting it and processing of this frequency by the radio translate this signal through some form to understandable combination of sounds and audible for human. From my analogy, could radio frequency mean consciousness.....radio signal apparatus or radio mean brain.....and the processed sound or audio mean perceives......is my analogy correct? Since the brain is the antenna that interpret 'experience within existence', how does inanimate object possess and process consciousness without brain or any sensory organ?
I agree the element that made living organism is still the same with non-living matters.....so using the radio frequency here, it only shows that this inanimate objects are expose to consciousness but are not active with it. Im I wrong?



I am an atheist. I have been trying to explain Yoruba spirituality to my pals but seem they are viewing things from religion perspection. Ifa to me is more like buddha and it explain alot about our physical world and other realm. I understand that our ancestors explain things through their level of understanding and personifing of our Energies makes most people lost direction where the philosophy is heading.
Eledumare is infinite consciousness, totality of energies and forces.

Ori is consciousness.....sa mean 'to select'. So orisa should mean selected consciousness.

I get another perspective concerning Ogun, Sango, Eshu and other likes.
Eshu to me is intuition
Sango to me is Electrical energy or force
Ogun literally Iron.

I deduce this from there oriki and Odu in Ifa.

I believe if those intelligent scientist in Africa can decode spirituality and philosophy......we will surely take over civilization. The worse is just that people are running away from it thinking it about devil and monsters.

Infomizer: This is my logomachy.
Having said that, I think 'consciousness'(in the context of this discussion) has a theoretical basis in particle physics as well as in the theory of conservation of matter. What do you think?

Yes. As in if consciousness arise through complicated series of chemical reaction in our brain, and our stimuli is base on result of this reaction is our brain. Cant this reaction in a different process implies too with plant and stone? Actually, it is impossible to know whether other human beings are conscious. Because we feel conscious, we assume other people must be like us. But this can only be an inference.

Infomizer: I've read some really interesting posts here.
However folks, I've got an observation.
I looked up the meaning of consciousness online (via merriam-webster dictionary) and here is what I found.

Full Definition of CONSCIOUSNESS
1
a : the quality or state of being aware especially of something within oneself
b : the state or fact of being conscious of an external object, state, or fact
c : awareness; especially : concern for some social or political cause
2
: the state of being characterized by sensation, emotion, volition, and thought : mind
3
: the totality of conscious states of an individual
4
: the normal state of conscious life <regained consciousness>
5
: the upper level of mental life of which the person is aware as contrasted with unconscious processes

Is it me, or are you guys misinterpreting what consciousness means? I'm only asking innocently though.

I fully comprehend the angle of the discussion so my take on it is this:
I feel the entire universe is made up of an interaction of protons, electrons, bosons, positrons and the likes just as Lovetinz has earlier intimated. Everything that exists interacts with each other and in this vein, we can say that stones, flowers, sand, you, your red blood cell, a cadaver, Mount Everest are all embodiments of interacting vibrating particles hence they are 'active'. This is what I think the OP meant and if it is, then the Universe is as well (After all, it is still expanding as of yet)! Going by the definition of consciousness above, only sentient beings can be conscious!

The Yoruba Spirituality and some eastern traditions like Hinduism and Buddhism would say that everything is conscious, whereas in the west we mostly see it as a matter of brain function. While I am hugely inclined to the western view the real problem is that we have no proper theory of consciousness from a physical basis and no real justification for our views at all.

The real answer to this of course is that no-one knows, so for those who have stated otherwise like plateon I will suggest to think more. The arguments will no doubt abound concerning what is 'really' meant by 'Conscious' - the 'merriam-webster dictionary' definition is perhaps not a good reference in this 'currently' hypothetical case.

Lovetinz: What I mean by intelligent arrangement is They are Logically Arranged: protons, electrons etc.,
The arrangement doesn't confer intelligence, Intelligence dictates the arrangement.
The intelligence is inherited from the Universe (RE: Title of this thread)
I don't subscribe to anything being unconscious either.

As per the bold, we are on the same page.

Dead people are conscious in a way similar to the way i hear criminal that are being executed are first injected with a paralysing injection, before the lethal one. If the convict was blindfolded too, you can imagine his consciousness.

After 'death' he will learn to 'live' just as you learnt to live here with help from your sensory inputs and your processing brain.
in his new 'environment'.

Thanks about this too. At this junction, I will try to ask if our conscious a form of energy, and, as they say energy cannot be created or destroyed. Or is conscious a product of energy?

PAGAN 9JA:
THe Gods bless you all. Work for your tribe and work yourself.

THe Gods Bless NIgeria. We will progress above all.

Bro, pls I need your contribution on this thread https://www.nairaland.com/1460798/universe-conscious

*Kails*:
#deep.

it giving me headache.

Lovetinz: What do you mean there shouldn't be state of unconsciousness.
You want to reconfigure 'reality'?
Are you conscious or not?

From your previous post, you stated that inanimated objects are intelligent collection of atoms and energies. If the intelligent arrangement of this atom make it conscious, then I dont think there should be unconscious state.

This implies to dead bodies. Maybe you shed more light on dead person consciousness