₦airaland Forum

OgboAto:
Folykaze

Baba, you get time. An oldee Awo once told me that everyone can not be 'awake', if that happens, there will be problems. So it is best to let some sheeple remain just that, sheeple.

I have followedthe thread & you have actually tried. In the end to me, these 'ignant' folks have just had you going in a cycle or say, have you on repeat. You may just want to leave them alone, you are not on their plane & you may just want to keep them where they are, below you. Just my suggestion.

What I know is, most of this pseudo-educated people have NEVER in their lives carried out a scientific experiment or observation to prove anything. They just sit on their butt cheeks, scurry the internet to see if the white man has said something then pick it & run with it. They are not independent thinkers. They won't take up your challenge to go out there to observe/test & neither do they have the senses or resources to carry out a test of the scientific nonsense they say. They are just couch potatoes waiting to be fed by the West & think they look 'smart' or 'modern' when they talk. For instance, see one talking about charged cloud like s/he conducted some type of research & came to that conclusion to gleefully regurgutated what the white master said.

In the end, most if not all of them have patronized a magico-spiritual service provider be it an Awo, Pastor or Alfa at one point in life and some still do. So they know what you speak of, they just like to deny like most hypocritical Nigerians.

Awo, what these people do not understand is that, the finest minds who led scientific revolution [and all other endeavours we enjoy today]that set the stage for today's scientific advancements were initiates of esoteric rights. Their achievements in sciences with which they are known today were derived from esotericism. If you can, read Albert Pike & Manly P Halls's works to see renowned scientists [and thinkers] who were Masons & other rights and how their 'crafts' contributed to the knowledges they gave to the public.

Ogbo Ato, Awo.

Ekaaro.

Eji re bi

Awo o ni te, Awo o ni faya

Ke pe o

tintingz:
Nope, there's nothing supernatural in this our natural world, every phenomena in this natural world are natural, not understanding something does not equate to "supernatural", you're simply appealing to Ignorance!

You are actually confused...

Firstly, supernatural simply mean event/manifestation that is not of the usual; not natural; altered by forces that are not understood fully if at all.

You also presented a definition which I think you don't understand by yourself. You defined supernatural as event or manifestation attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature.

This implies that the concept of the supernatural encompasses anything that is inexplicable by scientific understanding of the laws of nature.

So now that you begin to negate your own definition, it means you are not with your senses again.

If everything is natural, I wonder if paranormal is natural too.

tintingz:
My goodness!

Science use the world "we don't know yet" when something has not yet being understood, the origin of life is an example, science don't actually know the origin of life but the various study and research carried out has provide them some evidences but not sufficient which made it a theory.

You need to understand scientific methods.

The embolden is what is called conjecture and hypothesis. It is one of those good smelling horseshiit that are been sold to you. It is not empirical fact and not truth.

tintingz:
If an acclaimed supernatural can be proven and explain then it's no supernatural.

Supernatural is more like a fantasy claim.

Proven in what standard? Scientific research huh?

What about paranormals that cant be proven scientifically? Can such experience be tagged natural in your own world view?

tintingz:
Again, herbs are classical medicine, it's a form of medicine used in the past, we have evolved to develop modern medicine. The chemicals used for modern medicine didn't fell from the sky.

Stop taking me to unnecessary circle.

I am not disputing herbs been medicinal. I am only talking about methods of usage which ain't natural.

Here is a video of an African Priest who performs Brain Surgery with primitive tools, medicine , equipment and WITHOUT Anaesthesia .


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M5TRY1dCzsQ

Did you notice the ritual performed and the concoction given to the man to drink?

What part of those spiritual art is scientific to you?

tintingz:
The incantation does not do the work, it's actually the chemicals in this herbs that do the work.

Do doctors tell you to mention some incantations before taking Aspirin? These medicine works without any incantations or prayers.

All these incantations and rituals are waste of time, they are as results of Ignorance, some are used to extort money from their clients, some to make people believe they have potent powers. Imagine a medical doctor telling you to do some incantations before taking anti-malaria.

You are very poor in reasoning.

Are doctors practising medical science or medical spirituality?

tintingz:
Dude reason!!

Who investigated this?

Your comrades dropped the link.. Check the thread.

tintingz:
I didnt mention anything like my doorstep.

Tell your magicians to come to a neutral ground and display their powers. Simple.

You fail to pick the challenge. Another coward.

tintingz:
Again, herbs are not supernatural!

It is when you can't provide scientific explanation.

Let me hint you. I usually soak garri in lime water and drink it to treat malaria.

What is the chemical contents in that concoction that cures my malaria?

tintingz:
Lol, do ancient Yorubas think the creation story that said chicken, corn and sand were used to create the world is metaphorical? Did you assume this or what?

I think you're ashamed to accept your God literally used chicken, corn and sand to create the world, you find this ridiculous.

Sam Harris in a debate made mention of the problem when people interpret ancient mythologies as metaphors, it looses it honesty, truth and objectivity, it becomes fictions.

You see, western approval. I have been waiting so that you can mention one of your prominent leader and you just did. Because you guys find it hard to make sense on your own without reference to higher authorities in the western world.

This is the Harris that proclaimed his admiration for Buddhism and encourages his people to embrace it. Richard too is sexing up atheism with some pantheism bullshiit. Western atheism taken new dimension while African professed atheists throws away everything in African spirituality. Maybe you are waiting for them to come and approve the philosophy in ATR for you. Your wait likely gonna be forever.

As a Spiritual atheist or naturalistic panthiest, I see God as a natural entity.

There are 401 Gods in Yoruba spirituality and I can relate each and everyone to natural entities.

Only a dunderhead like you is looking for a man living in the sky.

tintingz:
Smh

Oga, there's no explosion in the big bang, it's an expansion. I'm yet to see where they said the big bang is an explosion.

I don't know what has light got to do with the beginning of the universe.

You might take your time and read all over again. Cant afford repeating myself.

tintingz:
Ogun is god of iron and metal. Simple, stop adding what is not.

The last time you saw people worshipping Ogun, did you see a Mystical figure called Ogun that gin and blood is spilled on his head OR you saw pieces of metal?

Why are you so dull?

tintingz:
Olorun is a deity that lives in the sky, the ancient Yorubas sees it that way, they believe God reside in the sky.

Eledumare is even an impersonal God.

Eledumare doesn't even interfare with human... There are deities, kings and leaders who run the affair of the world.

Who prayed to Eledumare? Where did you see that?

Does Eledumare has a dedicated shrine?

Please stop fooling yourself. You know nothing about your culture and heritage. Stick to the jewish nonsense and your western mumbo jumbo.

tintingz:
Aje has to do with money and wealth. You're praying to god of wealth.

And that Aje is what?

A handsome fella, son of Olokun abi?

Or cowries...?

tintingz:
Human skeleton is not metal oga.

Stop twisting what the ancient Yorubas never believed in.

Calcium is metal. Go back to school if you don't know that.

You are probably the one that need to stop believing there is actually a tortoise that can talk and that live with human.

If people see you disputing the wrong essence of tortoise story, when you start disbelieving tortoise talk, people would assume you are mad.

tintingz:
Human skeleton is not metal.

Please mention in details how Ogun mould the human skeleton.

Lol.

Calcium is metal. Deal with your science scholars on that.

tintingz:
Lol, and is spirituality used in scientific methods?

Remember me where Chemistry stem from please.

XxSabrinaxX:
Obviously...


The mirror in front of you when you made this statement, how big was it?

A very big mirror. That was a typo.

XxSabrinaxX:
Really?

Yes Madame

XxSabrinaxX:
FOLYKAZE you wouldn't happen, perhaps, to be the type that looks up and down before crossing the street, huh?

Sure I will. I know you can potentially eat me raw.

XxSabrinaxX:
Lightning occurs when a charged cloud comes in contact with another charged cloud.. these clouds are charged due to friction IE rubbing together with other clouds. The upper portion of clouds are positively charged & lower portion is negatively charged..when these portions of two clouds come in contact with each other, they discharge creating a bright flash! There's nothing remotely "supernatural" going on here. Tagging a deity as the cause of it is simply committing a fallacy of assumptive thinking and is not scientific in any way.

I made a claim and promised to provide the link so that you can look it up. Save your energy Ma'am.

Most of the thread where I engage Reyginus is lost (no thanks to Seun that doesn't have good backup).

When you study Sango story, praises and Ifa notation about it, you will understand it is simply electrical energy.

Ifa corpus entails history, scientific facts, poem, medicine and lots more. You need to look beyond the religion aspect of it to get the clearer picture.

XxSabrinaxX:
Any claim with false details is not worth salvaging in my opinion

The duty of proving it is false falls on your shoulder Ma'am. Can you bear it?

XxSabrinaxX:
Nothing was injected, FOLYKA. Obviously you'd know this if you had heeded my advice and asked Occam for his razor!

You should please read my words carefully.

My submissions here were from past experiences. You have to experience it too and come to conclusion if my claims are true or false. Afterward, we can raise questions

XxSabrinaxX:
I guess illogical responses would've sufficed?

Either logical or illogical is inconsequential when they haven't examine my claim objectively.

This is why I invited them first...others would follow.

XxSabrinaxX:
And i'm just trying to find out on which basis you make these claims? That spirit exists?

My claims are Osanyin has no audio device and talks audibly...therefore, the voice is from supernatural source. So firstly, you will need to confirm if truly it talks or not. And also find the device installed in it that talks. Then we can argue if the voice is from supernatural source or not. Anything else is a round trip that has no end.

Secondly, Baba Eletu can accurately pick a criminal with gunpowder. Doesn't necessary a criminal, we can innocent give him a trial and see if it works. When it is confirmed, we can then step into explanations for or against science.




Side note... Spirit does exist.

But how would you understand without knowing Naturalistic Pantheism?

XxSabrinaxX:
How would you know? You could be eating a different beans!

Your heart is beautiful. I don't care about taste,enjoy it already

XxSabrinaxX:
Aw don't be so chicken, FOLYKAZE. It's just an argument, not a wrestling bout lol.

Either way, It is a win-lose tussle

XxSabrinaxX:
Uncanny observation! Especially from you lol!

Lol

XxSabrinaxX:
It is the cross you and your fellow spiritualists must carry when you can only present long explanations when simple questions are asked! May i suggest Occam's Razor next time?

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Occam's_razor

It would help shorten your ride and do you a lot of good intellectually

It's tiring when you tend to detail anti-atheists but they keep coming with parallel opinions just to have you shouted down.

XxSabrinaxX:
There was a time when thunders and floods had no scientific information to explain them.

Not to the Yoruba spiritualist. They knew the full understanding of lightening and thunder. And they explained it with Sango. There is a thread by Reyginus where I contributed in it. I tend to decipher the esoteric facts hidden in praises and stories about Sango. I argued Sango is an electric energy. Will provide link later.

XxSabrinaxX:
Have you ever considered? Has it ever occured to you that there's a possibility that these "supernatural" events/manifestations are simply science we do not yet understand? Isn't tagging an event/manifestation "supernatural" a special pleading fallacy in light of this?

I know that is what it is.

What I am advocating for is that instead of throwing all the ancient knowledge into the dustbin, we should workhard and decipher those claims and throw away the false details in it.

A while ago, I found out human evolution in Ifa. Surprised? How can that happen if I had thrown everything away?

A thread by Pastor Aio tried to explain coding, programming and computation in Ifa. It focused primarily on binary coding.

This is shinning of light in the dark.

XxSabrinaxX:
When you are asked a question and you have no idea what the answer is, you can respond in ONE of these ways
a) "I don't know!"
b) "It must be X..."

I know which ONE is more intellectually honest.....

The question on ground bounds on True/false. You are injecting a new thing into it you know.

XxSabrinaxX:
SMH

If you're honest with yourself, you'll know that the other users have given you logical responses to these phenomena. It is left for you to use your tongue to count teeth and check if none of them are missing.....

Who asked for logical responses?

The query is that we can see and check the phenomena. If my claims are true, then we can require logical explanation of to why and how.

XxSabrinaxX:
Si, Signore. You should try my beans sometime!

You are a good cook

tintingz:
I agree with the dictionary definition reason I presented it.

The point isn't if you agree with the definition, it is if you understand it.

The dividing line between natural and supernatural is scientific understanding.

tintingz:
It's the religious, spiritual people and theists that attributes un-explained phenomena to supernatural, science don't conclude any phenomena to be supernatural or spiritual, instead they say "we don't know yet, study is still ongoing".

Justifying your conclusion with Ignorance is nonsensical.

Science don't say "we don't know yet". They rather deploy some mumbo jumbo called Conjecture and Hypothesis which are mostly are not facts or truth.

Supernatural claims have overtime been authenticated and proven to be truth.

tintingz:
I know herbs are form of classical medicine which evolve to modern medicine. The content of the herbs can be explained scientifically!

So what exactly is your argument here?

Herbs can be scientific. The method of application may not be scientific.

Some herbs are used after series of incantations and rituals. And it works. Does that mean the incantations and other spiritual process is scientific? Or would you argue disease cannot be cured when spiritual use of herbs is involved?

tintingz:
I never said it's a lie, don't say what I didn't say.

What I said is, invite those people with magic to a public forum to display their magic.

No, I don't want to go to any remote area where they have more advantage to do anything.

Ogbeni shut up.

The BBC investigator didnt sit in London headquarter and asked Dibia to come over and make it rain. They went to the remote village of the Dibia...report even shows they have been on search for over four months. And they went there and got their curiosity watered down. Dibia made it rain and proven right.

However, you want to sit in your coven and want magic brought to your doorstep. Isn't that poor thinking?

tintingz:
Herbs are not supernatural, they are medicine!

Method of usage can make it supernatural.

tintingz:
Are you saying the creation story that heaven was close to earth and chicken, corn, sand were use to create the world is big bang?

Metaphor!!!!

A primary school kids don't take tortoise story literally.

Think smart and wide.

tintingz:
Dude!!

And no there was no explosion in big bang just expansion.

A piece for kiddie thinkers like you

A Tiny, Hot Beginning

When the universe began, it was just hot, tiny particles mixed with light and
energy. It was nothing like what we see now. As everything expanded and took up more space, it cooled down.

https://spaceplace.nasa.gov/big-bang/en/

The bible creation story starts with light. Yoruba creation story starts with Light (Obatala is God of light). So is all other culture creation stories. They have knowledge of things before modern science. You are the only one acting dull here.

tintingz:
Are you taking this out of the literal meaning of Ogun?

No, the human skeleton is not metal, we're not like the X-Men wolverine.

What silly question is that? "am I taking Ogun out of literal meaning?" Did I ever told you the story should be taken literally?

That was why fools think disbelieve in the existence of a Man that lives in the sky. Who told you there is a man there?

Aje, money is a god. Do you also take that literally?


And you even said we don't have metal but skeleton.... Do you know what calcium is? And who cares if you are X-men wolverine? My dear you aint smart and think like a dolt.

Calcium is a chemical element with symbol Ca and atomic number 20. As an alkaline earth metal , calcium is a reactive metal that forms a dark oxide-nitride layer when exposed to air. Its physical and chemical properties are most similar to its heavier homologues strontium and barium

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Calcium

And maybe you don't know calcium is the building block of bone. 99% of it are found in bone and teeth. Please read https://www.medicalnewstoday.com/articles/248958.php


If science journal could refer to Calcium as metal and a bone building block, and Yoruba spirituality explain Ogun (God of metal) as the moulder of bone, if you can't see the correlation, then you are a dolt and should be ignored.

I am getting sick already with your warped and silly arguments.

tintingz:
Supernatural claims will be objectively true if evidences are provided.

Evidence like a man living in the sky?

Do you have Indomie as brain?

tintingz:
Yes.

Atleast the methods used to arrive at theories still make sense than your supernatural fairytales.

Conjecture and hypothesis are founded on guess and scientific junks. It isn't the fact.

tintingz:
For now the only way to explain the natural world is the scientific methods.

Explain Proton in Yoruba sire.

tintingz:
And NO we are more focus on scientific explanations which can be tested by anyone, we don't take everything from western scholars to be absolute truth.

Scientific explanation on the standard of the west right?

tintingz:
Scientists debate on research.

And spiritualist don't research?

tintingz:
What about story of Poseidon?

Do it yourself. Stop asking me to brainstorm for you.

tintingz:
Lol.

Let them come to a neutral ground.

Yes, when the early scholars started being sceptical about their spirituality.

It is a known fact in scientist community that spirituality is the profound source of science.

Please eat that.

LordReed:
Dunce have you gone for your English language lessons yet? Until you have, further conversation with you is pointless.

While you at it, Google how weather predictions are made and what confidence level is.

Hasta la vista dunce.

Ignored.... I don't have time for the round tripping.


The investigators took their time to locate the dibia in his village. It took them four months t achieve that.

They didn't post on nairaland or bbc that people claim were false or asking dibia to come and meet them in London. They went for what they want and get it.

So Oga, I am tired of the yadayada. If you want to check your facts, go for it.

Goodluck

XxSabrinaxX:
FOLYKAZE, please. What are you saying?

In as much as this sentiment amuses me so very much, i'd plead that you do NOT hold back. Give me your best jabs. Hit the nail on the head and face the matter squarely. Do not worry about me.

Smiles...


Seriously I am not the type. Go and check all my previous posts on this forum, I don't usually engage women.

But well lets see what you got.

XxSabrinaxX:
One must wonder then, the reason and purpose of your back and forth with the other gents in this thread

I am beginning to lose interest in the thread already. Reason is we are just arguing aimlessly.

We are going in circle and its boring

XxSabrinaxX:
And what's your take on the bolded? What is YOUR explanation on how these events and/or manifestations happen?

That thread my dear would take us on an endless long ride.

I could argue it has supernatural cause. That is because no one has provided scientific information to explain how event/manifestation happen.

(event/manifestation here is Osanyin ability to communicate audibly, and Eletu to pick criminal with gunpowder)

XxSabrinaxX:
Well, we don't eat the same beans...

Hahaha

XxSabrinaxX:
Been (and still) observing your hyper-ventilating all over this thread for some time. Work and other stuff have restricted me from addressing your issue and your cringey arguments, but no worries. Your cup is full on this thread

Keep an eye out for this moniker. I'll be back for you...

Madame, for one I no dey argue with women, not even my wife. Women should be cared for and not dragged into endless bloodbath.


And why are we arguing? What would argument achieved? What is the purpose of the argument in first place?

There is an event / manifestation. Is the event/manifestation true or false... We can easily make a check

However, we are battling over how to event /manifestation happens.

Money miss road be that

LordReed:
Go and take a class in understanding English you miserable goat since simple speech is beyond your Kern.

Dunce of the highest order.

Oga shut up. You were jumping over yourself when a dolt claimed the BBC interview with the dibia is false.

However, the story as narrated by the interviewer shows rain actually dropped (very minimal) as promised. And when they were about to leave, the dibia told them it would rain heavy and it happened. You are simply clinging on Weather Report Program and dismissing the facts that dibia could control weather with spiritual arts.

LordReed:
And you are even more pathetic. Employing all manner of sophistry to sidestep the issues on ground. You barely even understand the things you talk about so its not a wonder you mangle everything into a mish mash of nonsense.

If there is any slave here it is you, a slave to nonsense.

Shut up dog.

You are here despising the dibia and worshiping weather report program which is a product of science.

However, the story put to fact that the man made rain fall at that when needed and also made it fall heavily when the interviewer left as promised. What is false in the story that you foolishly make noise about?

Ohhh you want Richard Dawkins to come and validate it for you.

Pathetic fools

LordReed:
Answer questions about a god/gods I do not believe exist? Did you think about what you were writing?

I dont believe a pig can fly even though it could fly as depicted in arts and literatures.

My position was made on the ground that I know what a pig is.

If you don't believe a cup is on the table, you should be able to explain what you understand by cup and table.

Only a foolish person would wake up and say hjiso doesnt exist without telling us what hjiso is.

LordReed:
I do not expect anybody to come up with stories of spiritual entities simply because they are unable to explain a phenomenon. If you don't know why a river floods why are you telling me a spirit woman called Osun caused it?

Another evasive rants.

Tell us what Chlorine or Acidity is in Yoruba or Igbo. How would you want a Yoruba teacher explain Lithium in his dialect?

For umpteen time, spiritual entities are personification of natural entities,energy.

LordReed:
We found no spirit in any of these things so what need do I have of calling it a god or spirit?

The story of Mars actually posit he is a bloodied warrior. Last time I check, Mars is a reddish planet. Simple English, metaphor, personification is what you don't understand.

Only foolish person would look into the sky looking for a Man instead o f reddish planet.

LordReed:
You keep asking me to explain god/gods I do not believe exist how is that sound reasoning?

Evasive tactic. What is God? How did you conclude it doesn't exist when you are ignorant about it?

LordReed:
It's a metaphoric turn of phrase because they don't exist in the first place.

Oh you accept Gaia is metaphorical representation of earth and Ra mean Sun. Can you see how foolish you are? You knew these things but still denied them or claim they are dead. Shows how stupid you folks are.

Now, has people stopped worshipping Gaia and Ra because of science?

Note the word worship and understand the word before answering the question.

LordReed:
If that is the report he is referring to then I did not see where they concluded that herbs can stop rain. To the contrary, the reporter says weather reports had predicted rain and the dibia could not even make it rain immediately.

EDIT: https://www.bbc.com/pidgin/tori-45296929

Did you read the tory?

You guys are just pathetic. Na everytime weather report dey accurate? You can believe weather report program and can't believe a dibia. Inferiority complex?

You dont have problem with weather report that fails sometimes but having problem with a dibia that accurately predict rain would beat the hell out of the interviewers and did happen.

The problem is not science. It is your complexity. You are worse than the Christians and Muslims who are slave to jewish culture. You are simply a slave to western thoughts and view.

LordReed:
I don't ask for links unless I have trouble finding it. I didn't ask you for links to the osanyin did I?

A simple Google would have helped instead of asking me to provide it.

LordReed:
The questions you posed are the same ones we ask everytime to which no one has offered satisfactory answers.

It is all about someone else. You don't want to be in the picture abi?

Why can't you answer them yourself?

LordReed:
If a thing is found in the natural world by what means do we then attribute supernatural causes to it even when it is unexplained?

An event or manifestation indeed occur which you can't dispute. The question of how, what and whom was behind it occurrence is what brings in supernatural or science-based theories. This simply mean (super)natural can only be defined by scientific explanations. In the absence of scientific explanation, a supernatural claims are been deployed.

Fact is, supernatural claims are not entirely true or false. It is just a method with which a person can explain his understanding.

How do you expect someone without western education to explain Chlorine or Acidity is Yoruba? Can you?

LordReed:
Sango was said to be the origin of thunder and lightning till we found there was no Sango in the skies and that thunderstorms are natural phenomena.

The problem with you is you thought Sango in that phenomenal is Human. Therefore you were looking for the wrong thing.

Sango there is energy. Copish?

I thought Mars was human. Why ain't you looking for human mars in the sky? Why do you see Mars as planet and not human? Inferiority complex? Poor reasoning?

When you can explain what God is and what make God a God, you will see the answer.

LordReed:
All these gods die when the natural phenomena behind their attributes become explained so with what confidence are we to expect that there are spirit entities anywhere?

God dies?

Has Gaia or Ra died?

tintingz:
Supernatural
(of a manifestation or event) attributed to some force beyond scientific understanding or the laws of nature. Source

You see how you guys fail simple questions. I asked, how do YOU understand the word supernatural. I am asking for your own view and not dictionary or encyclopedia definition.

Permit me to use your presented definition

The emboldened phrase mean the event or manifestation cannot be explained with scientific information available. Or events altered by forces that are not understood fully.

To simply put, what defines (super) natural is scientific understanding.

That is, when it is explained scientifically, it is natural. And when there is no scientific explanation, it is supernatural. One thing that cannot be disputed is event/manifestation.

The confusion you are cloaking your neck into is; you dont have problem with herb, you acknowledge the potency of this herb, and you and the herb seller do not have any ability to identify and explain how it works. In the absence of scientific explanation, what else do you want? What do you have left? And has the supernatural claims reduced the potency of the herb?

tintingz:
No no, tell them to come to a neutral ground and display their magic.

You are the one that claim it is lie... I have asked you to come and prove it is lie.

tintingz:
Provide us evidence the baba worked with the police and they solved cases.

When you arrive, you will see all that

tintingz:
People attributes an events to supernatural when it is beyond laws of nature and cannot be explained scientifically, justifying their claims with "Ignorance".

There's a problem that comes with this "conclusion" of calling something supernatural out of Ignorance, what if science can now explain the phenomena, is it still supernatural? Kindly answer.

What happens to "I don't know and maybe we can know later"?

Thunder and lightning were once believed to be supernatural.

Ok

Duh!!!

Knowledge simply means Justified belief

A person that actually discovered and use herbs to cure an ailment have a detailed knowledge about the particular herb to use, methods of application and ways of preservation. And not only that, the person uses the herb over and over time and observe it works which shows that his belief is justified, hence he knows what he does. He isn't ignorant like you posit. Let me ask, what is Oxygen is Igbo, Hausa and Yoruba?

The supernatural claims are simple PERSONIFICATION of natural elements.

Take for example, every culture creation story starts with Light. The big bang theory posit there was an explosion and hot particles scattered across the empty space. Note the word/phrase 'hot particles' and light. Any correlation?

Would you reject my culture creation that explain the genesis of our universe which personify light as Obatala and accept Big bang theory when both are saying the same thing?.

In Yoruba creation story, Obatala (God of light) started creation of the physical world. Along the line, he drank heavily and went docile which makes Oduduwa took over.

In Big bang, there was a huge explosion of a singularity and spread of very high temperature elements. The elements cooled and became physical matter (dark matter).

Obatala and Oduduwa. High temperature and cool physical matter. Lol. Making sense?


Another one, Ogun in Yoruba folktale moulded skeleton. Science posit calcium is the building block of bone.

What is Ogun, Metal or Iron God
What is Calcium, chemical metallic element.

Any correlation

I can go on and on.

My point is supernatural claims are not entirely false and as well not absolute truth.

Science too have hypothesis and theories which ain't absolute truth. Infact, hypothesis changes over time.

The problem with your like is that you assume anything from the western scholars is the absolute truth. And any claims without scientific explanation are false and dismissed or rejected.

Go and read the Icy comet bombarding theory of water origin and correlate it with story of Yemoja. Almost the same.

Fact is, your chemistry is birthed by Alchemy, a spiritual and supernatural view of chemicals.

Biology, Botany, Medicine, Astrology, Architecture, and other modern science branch have it root in spirituality.



What am I dragging with you for......

With and or without supernatural claims, the event/manifestation indeed happens.. I am inviting you to come see it happening. Let us handle explanation later.

Let me add, spirituality is the profound source of science.

Eat that

tintingz:
- I don't have problem with use of herbs, i take herbs as well, what I'm yet to see evidence for is the claim of supernatural powers. If you have anyone tell them to come to a public forum to display their magic, not everyone has the time to go to some bush. We need a neutral ground.

1. What do you understand by the word supernatural? Define it please.

2. I am asking you to come and see the magic. It is your responsibility to accept the offer. Afterall you are member of the public.

3. Where did I say I am taking people to the bush? Is Ore a bush? You have time to rant online but have no time to validate your claims. Ogbeni swerve abeg.

tintingz:
Do you have any evidence of the investigations the baba did with the police? If I have such power, I will be working with the federal or international intelligence and making my money.

All noise with no substance. Have nothing to do with the challenge

tintingz:
Lastly, We accept there are over trillions phenomena we haven't discover and we don't even know some causes and purpose of some phenomena, we don't have to conclude it's supernatural!

Unexplainable natural phenomenon. Brief in details difference between natural and supernatural. What makes a phenomenal (super)natural?

tintingz:
You said a man can stop rain with leaves and herbs, people like you will conclude it's supernatural, now that you said there are scientific explanation to it, is it still supernatural and mysterious?

Still throwing words around with no substance. Try harder

LordReed:
The potency of herbs is way different from claiming spirits exist.

BTW give link to this BBC article where a man is said to stop rain with herbs.

Word


That is the problem.

What is the difference between energy and spirit? Wordplay huh?

What if what you call energy is what a spiritist called God? Wordplay!!!

Natural elements that are been personified and been adored to God...example sea and ocean.. Yemoja and H2O. Wordplay right?

Ogun and Calcium (both metalic element). Wordplay?




Essence, cause, idea and natural elements are spirits to some people.

The problem with you guys is that you have refused to come down from your high horse. If you have, you would have seen some pertinent issue that goes beyond the useless rants you all fight over here.

First question, what is God?

Second, what form of God do you disbelief?

Third, what makes God a God?

Fourth, how do I identify God?


Many pertinent philosophical questions left behind. Fighting over existence when you can't explain in details what existence is.






As par the bbc link, google it. I don't need to do everything for you sir/ma.

Many people who claim to be atheists on this forum are anti-God and mostly anti organised religion. We need to understand they were formally religious and God believer, so their apple doesn't fall far from the tree. Meaning they despise anything God or religion.

Having a contrary view or opinion doesn't make one intelligent or brilliant to others. Contrary opinion shouldn't even give room for hatred. Tolerance and respect should be accorded to every contrary views.

My wife is a Christian. My dad practise synergy of traditional and Christian religion. Even though I do not accept their view, I still parley and respect them and same is accorded to me. Been a disbeliever haven't stop me from making friends with Pastors, Imam and even Babalawo. And this has made me earn more knowledge about their spirituality.

Yoruba spirituality accept atheism and all form of religion. The keynote is that you should tolerate these believers and live in peace with them. Not the form of Christians vs Muslims or Atheist vs Religiosity.

I am a spiritual atheist.. (not conventional or traditional atheist who disbelief in anything called God). God should be redefined and you will see that it exists. I am a God...I exist.

tintingz:
Why not invite them to a public forum to display their magic? I will advise you to take that baba to police intelligence departments, they will need him there for investigative purpose then we will know if his powers are actually real and not tricks.

How I wish we can organize a program in Nigeria that will challenge anyone with paranormal powers or supernatural powers in public and thorough investigations will be done.

How you wish someone would bring charm to public forum.... Why can't YOU bring it to the public? Why are you avoiding the opportunity to bring it to public? Why should someone do the job for you, why not YOU?

It was in BBC recently that a Man can stop a rain or deflect it with leaves and herbs. If folks like you were told about it, you would only rant and wish someone else can go and confirm it. Not until recently I learnt there is a scientific ways of stopping rain. But if there hasn't been scientific explanation yet, you fools will disapprove it. Makes me wonder if what the west approve should be absolute. Why can't you just man up and come out of your fuccking hole?

In my university days, a plant science student investigated potency of local herbs. He found out in his research that the herb mixture he bought from a herb seller (probably an illiterate) can potentially treat and or cure malaria. The surprise was that herb seller cannot explain or identify the chemical contents of the herb...but she was sure it worked. It was the science guy who listed out these contents and briefed us how each chemical affects our system. If this herb was probably brought to you lazy a.ssho.les, you would have thrown it away and call it names.


For your info, the Divisional Police Headquarter always work hand to hand with Baba Eletu. Atleast, they have picked up criminals from his compound and charged to court for crime.

You see I don't have strength for long tying. The challenge is up for you or anyone to pick. Do it by YOURSELF and stop looking for someone to bring it into publicity.

budaatum:
There's only one explanation and I've give you it. You are lying about dismantling osanyin!

There is one thing I noticed about you so called atheist and let me tell you. You guys are lilly liver cowards, a silly weakling. This is a feature that separate you fellas from religious people. At least, theist still go beyond their faith seeking knowledge. But you jokers dispute things without providing an alternate explanation.

Christians and Muslims accepted foreign religion, Atheists ain't different, yall would wait for a western scholar to make a claim before you jump on it...

There is no God, no one is disputing as argument for it or against it prove nothing substantial. There is spirit (energy) and some people can manipulate it, you are disputing that....now come out and see it, you crawl into your shell.

Talking Osanyin videos abound on YouTube. You may say the sound was edited so come and see it talk, you but prefer to sit your lazy a.ss in a corner and say gilberish that doesn't make you appear anything less than stupid.

True seeker of truth and enlightenment don't just sit down and wave things away. I personally know how much I spent looking for charm...not to own one but test and see the efficacy myself. Just name it, Christian and Islamic mysticism and the traditional have all been explored.

I won't give you a task or challenge that would harm you. Infact, I will take care of your lodging in any choice hotel in Ore... You might check Jumia travel for that. And also take care of your transport within Ore. The Eletu is there and so is Osanyin. Your choice and step out of been a stupid coward.

This Osanyin challenge has been up for four years now on nairaland. No single atheist has dim it fit to pick it up.

Baba Eletu is there strong and agile. I will pay the service fee. Let us all experiment the efficacy of his gunpowder.

The challenge is up for anyone of you who is brave enough to pick up. The remaining who have nothing but useless and stupid evasive rants will be ignored.

NPComplete:
Lol. See how this guy dey reason.

So when u were an impressionable teenager, a ventriloquist performed his tricks in front of u and u were mesmerized. Then later after he left, u and ur friend went to grab some of his toys and props and tried to open them to see where the sound was coming from.

And u were sounding as if u did an actual scientific investigation of the matter and the baba was in ur front while u were hearing the sound coming from the Osanyin but couldn't make out where it was coming from.
Hahahaha. U self u be Osanyin. Lol

Have you seen why I called you all Noise?

Osanyin can talk on it own without the priest presence. I lived with Awo and move around with them for years. You can have a chat with Osanyin....in as much you understand it words (spoken in Yoruba) without the aid of it priest. Just ask him to invoke it and do the talking. That is all.


You dont sit down in your room and expect things to work as you assumed. You have to go out and make it work.

NPComplete:
Fake nonsense.

All noise....

budaatum:
What's to disprove? It's not as if you have presented anything credible here! Or are you asking us to take your word that you dismantled Osanyin? You must think we're gullible!

Prove the audio is aided by a device in it. Prove the sound is not supernatural. Give natural explanation to where the sound is from, and also that it is fake like you all claim

budaatum:
Why you de lie na? Where please did you dismantle Osanyin? Lol.

I came to know of Osanyin when I was a teenager. Our Tenant then is an Osanyin priest and he keeps it in his room. Been a friend to his so who was my age mate, I have access to his room and small corner where he keeps the idol. Out of curiosity, I was ablw to dismantled the idol. It is simple log of wood in human shape. The idol then was calles Bàbà Kékeré.

NPComplete:
It is very obvious u don't know what ventriloquism means.

If we ask u to prove the fake nonsense now u will start telling us the baba is in one bush and start some long stories to waste my time. I don't have time for fake nonsense.

You are the one making bullshiiit up. I didnt mention where the Baba is located on this thread. The challenge has been up for years. I only added that of Eletu which is recent. I live in Ore, Ondo state. I have met a lot of nairalanders who seek spiritual help and taken them to some Awo. There is no report that I did any harm to them. Your job is to disprove my claim by locating what device speaks i the Osanyin.

I know what ventriloquism and have seen the art before. The artists behind ventriloquism didn't claim any supernatural attributes in their artwork. There case is different from Osayin priest. Just come outof your hole. This is Osayin and Eletu. Come out and disprove it.

NPComplete:
Fake nonsense.

What makes it fake? Have you seen or handled one before? Did you find the device that talk inside?

Why can't you just come out and shame all Osanyin priest worldwide?

Stop your baseless tantrum, come out of your hole. It won't harm you.

NPComplete:
Osanyin is the fakest nonsense in the history of fake nonsenses. Anybody using Osanyin as an example should not be taken seriously. That is ventriloquism at its best.
A pastor in a church I once attended used to be a juju man himself and he demonstrated the Osanyin in church one day. That's when I knew that ventriloquism requires exceptional talent.
Fake nonsense.

Come out and disprove it Oga.

I would like to see a Skeptic disprove the Osanyin supernatural attributions.

Osanyin is the Yoruba God of medicine. And one of it features is that it speaks audibly. However, I have personally dismantled this idol in search of that which speaks inside it. I have not make a single success till date. There are dolls that can talk, but they are equipped with a device that make them talk. The case is different from Osanyin...hence, my ground stand that there are still some unexplainable natural phenomenon which I call supernatural that exist out there.

I only need an atheist to come out. I personally will take you to Osanyin priest and will allow us to inspect it.

Also, there is this famous Babalawo in my locality. He is called Baba Eletu. He handle case of stealing. His job is to catch the culprit, and he does this by applying some gunpowder to the palm of the suspects. Bros, the suspect can not hold the powder for 10 secs after some incantation is initiated to make it work. And from my observations, those that got their hand burnt always confess they stole or know about the missing item. I mean 100%.

And you guys know what, I bought gun powder supplied by a gunsmith in my locality. And asked some of my friends to take my money behind me. Did all the formalities like the Baba and nothing worked. The Baba usually does sampling to prove efficacy of this charm by asking people to free take his phone or money behind him... And he simply applies his powder and recant some incantation. The hand that touch the phone will get burnt within seconds.

At a point, I thought the charm works with fear. A case was brought to him which I witnessed. A chief found out his smoked bush meat is missing in the farm. So he parked all the people living in the farm community to Eletu. At the first instance, no one get his/her hand burnt. The Baba enquired further since the original thief is not among the people. He asked enquired if the thief is from another community but nothing happened. He then enquired if the thief is a human or some animal...immediately, outcome shows it is animal. He further enquire if it is wild animal or dog, the charm reveal it is dog. So all dog owners were parked on a single file and Baba enquire whose dog it is that stole the meat...believe you me, it happens like a flash. Findings show that the dog who's owner hand got burnt indeed took the meat.

There is no harm in these. Firstly disprove that Osanyin talks with a audio device, and or let us test the efficacy of Baba Eletu charm.

We might talk and argue till tomorrow but won't prove anything. The real job is out there and we can walk easily to it and get results.

ladionline:
Bro, you can't give a conclusion on a subject matter that you have not demonstrated any expertise. Please endeavour to share the stories you are alluding to in their original form sir. That done, you can then establish your authority on Yoruba folktale with ease. and again, not just that, telling us what is impossible is like masking what is impossible to you and infusing us with your confusions.

"Ogbon o pin sibikan", says Yoruba, what shouldn't be deciphered literally by you could be done by another person to arrive at the message: oun to koju senikan, eyin lo ko selomii biilu gangan. And how do one make sense in a message you cannot decipher to ultimately come to the conclusion that a message is already passed across?



In Iwori Meji, ifa says and I quote:

"Oro kii gbaaro, ka fi ale so, adia fun okoko niyele, ti yoo bani tule yiwo.
Nigbati Olodumare seda eniyan sile aye, won o ribi gbe, nitori ogede omi lo kun ile aye"

From the above, we see example of how to quote source to establish clear inference without interpolations of data from third party, not how to allege that somewhere a point in obscurity (evolution) was alluded to in a verse in obscurity (Ifa) making the inference deduced from both obscure sources, a resounding fact. So, what is okokoniyele in the creation story above?

In scientific analysis of data, Ifa and evolution did not become a fact, its analysis of the claims deduced from both school of thought that one harness to make a point: meanwhile, Ifa was actually alluding to reverse-evolution, where one of the twins became ape, not where ape became one of the twins. The verse being referred is Odu ejilaesebora. You can share the Ifa-evolution piece to buttress your point.

So, by your standard, where osun was said to have become "aguntan" in Yoruba tradition, it means we branch out to those quadrupeds in evolution too? Just now you told us not to take the word of Ifa literally and that's exactly what you just do in a purposefully confusing way.



You are not an analyst, you are a reformer: you pick what others have shared and creates a brand new problem and produces a tailor-made solution to it.



Bro, you are a creative thinker. How do we get a valid traditional support for the Ogun who mould bones? I believe this is new. I think this claim is premeditated by a story you have created. And really, your story exposes your poor logic and scientific understanding. Calcium is Iron, iron is ogun? That's incredible. I don't know where you get that from, but its plainly wrong.

Calcium is an element just like iron. For instance, Calcium has different mass number and atomic number which is different from iron. Calcium is calcium (Ca) and iron is iron (Fe). Both have different electronic configurations and their nuclear proton and neutron varies as well. Not the same in chemical property to start with. So, how could two different things still be the same thing?

And the "ogun been refer to in creation story" itself looks familiar, its like plagiarizing the passage of the scripture revealed to Ezekiel about a place called "valley of dry bones". So the creation story simply resembles causing senew to cover those dry bones for ogun to take the credit. My bros, that's just another misconception of evolution. Please get your facts right bro.

In your mind, Calcium is the building brick of life, how then you also alludes to evolution? I don't know how to harmonize this complex claims. If Calcium is the building brick of life as you have insinuated, then how did "calcium atom" evolve to "Calcium cell" or, how did an atom evolve to life? It takes a quantum leap for a mineral (calcium) to become organic (life) and you have some good explanations to make.

Please don't always pretend like Ifa has all the answers and have saved you of all analytics, explanations and quotations you'll ever encounter anyday, once you say it says one thing or the other somewhere about something that you believe to be true. kindly endeavour to have a distinct voice of your own, Ifa is an achiever already, tryna achieve too. That's my 2 cents.

Lest I forget, Ogun is said to be "god of iron" even though orisha is not parrallel to god, the Yoruba who introduce us to ogun says of him, lakaye, oshin mole. Which one of his praise evoke calcium that its important to ascribe calcium to Ogun? fixing two unlikely data together for a story and not quoting any valid, time tested tradition to buttress your claim is forgery and lying and deception for credits and reputation.



So, you did none of this analysis in all the treatise above? Talk of 'much ado about nothing'. None of your claims adds up traditionally or scientifically.

Waoh. Kilode...you know me before? See brutality.

I have dropped the topic and forgotten about it. Thanks Baba for bringing this up again.

Urrrrggg where do we start

Please tell us about Isokun... We can discuss Ogun/calcium been metal on a new thread. Thank you

When a religion makes people believe that medical issues should be taken care of in the Church, prayer centres and mountains instead of Hospital and Clinic, then there is a problem.

How do you guys believe the miracle display in churches without questioning? Christianity is a joke. It makes Christians dumb and very gullible.

Christianity, without exemption of any other religion is the root problem.

The Street is filled with churches and mosques. Disturbing the peace of the community with their loud speakers and shouting when praying as if their Gods have ear problem. How many Research centre do we have? How many industries and corporations do we have?

When a nation embrace gullibility in any form, then there is the problem.

Dead men in some occasions have erection and sex with women that are alive

johnydon22:
Can you furnish us on where you lean regarding this topic?

Is man his spirit or mind? (If you believe there is)
Or is he his body?
Or is he both?

The answer is obvious. The body conveys the inner-self..it can be replaced but the inner-self is distinct. Using analogy like the one you have up there...if I bought a Mercedes Benz and over the years after wear and tear, I moved the Benz Engine into another scrap which makes the new vehicle more like Limo, will that change the physical identity of my car or change the fact that it is same Benz Engine in another metal scrap?

People simply confuse physical identity to inner-self (man). Will transplant of body changes inner-self? The answer is no.

Let me brief you about my personal experience on this topic. It was in 2007 when I developed strong interest in another form of life, religion in this case, outside Christianity. My friend whose Dad is Babalawo invited me to a Babaji festive. Along with us is an hired bike man who took us there. The bike rider is a Delta man and understand some Yoruba words but speak entirely in pidgin. We paid him to take us there and also return us in the next day. The ceremony was to hold in the middle of the night.

When it all started, the Babaji spirit was consulted by the priests and normal rituals gear on. Those of us there went into about fourty minutes of singing, clapping and drumming so that the spirit will rise. Finally it does. And it embodied the bike rider. Surprisingly, the bike rider went into trance, stood on his right feet (babaji is a one legged spirit), and spoke in Ikale/Apoi dialect. One thing that fascinated me was that the bike man took up another identity and said and did things outside his knowledge...like he was with Priests for years. He at a point went into the forest to get some leaves for ritual. How could someone that doesn't know the area do well wander in the forest in the middle of the night without a flash light or guidance?

And there is this funny thing. When the spirit was about to leave, it instructed it priest to inform the bike man (mentioning his name) to perform some rites. At that point, it shows clearly there were two personalities (in this case spirit) in one body. One is the bike rider's, while the other is the Babaji spirit.

At the point when our bike rider went into trance, did and say things outside his knowledge or experience, everyone there acknowledge the Man/spirit in it as Babaji (not rider man this time).

The Babaji spirit which spoke through the bike rider mentioned that he should perform some rites when he returns to his consciousness and to himself.

Rider man who speaks Pidgin suddenly speak pure Ikale dialect. How possible? Two man in a body. One is in hibernated while the other is active. And brought another question...what holds experience, knowledge and memory, the body or spirit?

Things like this happen too in Churches, esp the white garment,where it is believed some spirits embodies another person body and does things distinct from what the embodied personality can do.

There is also a general belief in spiritual circle or some religion that one can communicate with dead people. In Yoruba, the medium is called Oro. In the real sense, the person is dead and body decomposed. Therefore, the person/man that is been conversed is the person spirit called Aponri in Yoruba.

Aponri in Yoruba simply mean the inner self. It exist separately from the body. And that is what defines oneself. Ori (Consciousness) capture experiences while Iwa (character) defines physical identity.

This is why Yoruba will say, Ori inú mi ma ba ti ode mi je meaning my inner head shouldn't destroyed my outer head. (Another philosophy question...is bad destiny really bad?).

Yoruba people believe that everything we do in the physical world is a reflection of action of Aponri in Ode Orun. Meaning the inner-self self directs our physical behaviour. And when the body is inanimate, the Aponri transcend to another realm and continue to exist or possibly returned into another body as Aseyinwaye (Reincarnation). This is why Yoruba people posit that that Person don't really die, they transcend into ancestor realm (Baba oku, baba re ile...in music you here Baba re le o, ile lo lo tarara).

If I am going to speak on my experiences and Yoruba knowledge on the subject, I will conclude that the spirit is the man/person/being here and not the entire body.

The topic is drawn from a very long time unravelled uncertainty bothering on Identity.

Guess I watched some movies that portrayed the question on screen. First movie is Identity, second is Triangle and the third is Predestination. These movies throws me into matrix and lose in the tunnel.

Good topic though