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 Islam › Re: Dr. Zakir Naik In Nigeria From 8th June by golpen(m): 10:46pm On Jun 09, 2013 |
thehomer: I'm already in the world of rational thought the question is are you? Pointing out that Muslims are also victims is one of the reasons why you should have been against this Zakir person, who said all Muslims should be terrorists, coming to Nigeria. A country with fanatics who are Muslims who also feel that they're fighting for an Islamic state to be established.I won't take it as you did not get the full content of what dr Zakir Naik said, you only want to try make a point to justify your hate. And probably if you don't, it means you have joined the likes of those that compiled the bible with false, misinterpretated and conflicting informations, passing it around for people to believe. All you guys want to know about him is he said "every muslim should be a terrorist" and you never cared to know what he meant by saying that. You need to be rational in your thinking I said and will still say it again. We have proved to you that the BH sect are not muslims and don't have any islamic objective. What they claim is unislamic we have proven but you christians want to hang because you think you'll get a befitting burial. Palin refered to the killings and molestations in Iraq as a task from God and you say that's mourning, not rejoicing?. Afghanistan haboured a Bin laden who knew nothimg about the 9/11 incident and you think killing every innocent civilian is justifiable in a search of one man?. Hundreds of jews work in the WTC and none of them came to work on that particular 9/11 and you don't still smell a burning meal in your kitchen?. I have told you to take a travel into the world of rationality. That will ease your stress as dr Zakir Naik after successfully finishes his abuja visit, moves in to Lagos next week. 2 Likes |
| Islam › Re: Dr. Zakir Naik In Nigeria From 8th June by golpen(m): 2:24pm On Jun 09, 2013 |
@thehomer, @babyosisi You guys should take a trip to the world of rational thinking. What we are saying here is that the muslim Ummah as a whole does not support this babaric act of terrorism. Our people have also been victims of this same boko-haram. The public sites bombed also had muslims in them and I can't remember a bomb being invented to be muslim or christian sensitive, but you christians because of your natural hate for Islam as a religion and the people as muslims, tend to embark on those incidents as your saving points in any argument, because you think it as stigmatising the muslims. The ones @tintingz presented to you are even very little compared to those the muslims suffer from the hands of christians and jews. The christians were rejoicing, when american soldiers invaded iraq and afghanistan, molesting their women and destroying the mosques and spraying the cross on the Qur'an. The christian kid in america lived his life of coffee and toast when the middle eastern child cannot even hope for a morrow. The havoc been wrecked on the palestinians is even too high to talk about. Maybe you should go watch this movie 'unthinkable' and you'll understand. Yet with all these, muslims have never made it a point in any of our arguments with you guys, we only cite at them when you bring up the BH issues from which we have also suffered. Be rational please...thanks. 3 Likes |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 11:52pm On Jun 08, 2013 |
owo: To keep you in check, going forward, i will document when you run away from the issue at hand.I seriously can't figure out your point here. They are just baseless and don't have any standings at all. 1. The more you try to cover up your lags with lies and fabrications, the more you deep yourself into more and more troubles. "Every Child of God decides if he wants to celebrate Christ's birth on any day of his choice or not.", you said and I wonder if you ever take a minute to read your words before clicking on the 'submit' icon. I'll like a christian fellow like you to testify to the logic in this sentence, if it actually sound logical to you in any way. So you mean it is acceptable if the pope announces to the catholics to snub dec 25 and celebrate christmas on 31st of may?...read your words. Here, Maybe you need the context of the verse I refered you to. 1 cor 14:34 says; "Let your women keep silence in the churches: for it is not permitted unto them to speak; but they are commanded to be under obedience, as also saith the law." Now imagine it didn't stop there, to make you know how seriously the bible meant it, it said in 35 "If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church" So I wonder if gal 3:28 says what 1 cor 14:34-35 say is rubbish, then there's a score to settle. Maybe that's what you tell them in church to justify your wife's preaching. 2. What are the foundations? Trinity? An unscathed lie!!! Check very well, Jesus himself never claimed it. 3. Here, you have done a similar thing you earlier brothers did- twisting my words, by saying; "You may support those that brought out my brother from his house in Yobe and killed in cold blood because he believes in the Lord Jesus Christ simply because "muslims have also been killed", it does not stop anything." I don't think I did hint at supporting them in my earlier statements, I only hinted that muslims have been victims of these killings too and as muslims we are not comfortable with it. However, I'm sorry for the issue of your brother. May his soul rest in peace (a minute silence). 4. I think someone needs to help me out here. Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. 2 Chronicles 36:9 9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord. The question is was he 18 yrs or 8 yrs when he started ruling, let's say 3mnths 10 days is still equivalent to 3 months. I still maintain my stand that somebody lied in either of the two or in fact, both lied, but both cannot be true. 5. If you say the truth in a gathering or a court, you need a witness to certify your claims. And if you still insist a self sufficient sign of authencity which you will never find in the any other scripture not even in the bible, the Qur'sn talks of every aspect of life ranging from history (the story of the seven sleepers), literature (the language structure of the Qur'an) and science (hydrology, embryology, geography et al). All these I can provide you a reference to provided you need them or better still get the debate clip I asked others to get. How can you prove your claim that the Qur'an depended on the existence of the bible?.. Baseless!!! 6. I still agree with you on your quote anyway, but telling what is wrong is not too little to ask. You may only want to asl yourself why YOU want to remain in ignorance. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 7:51pm On Jun 08, 2013 |
owo: Do not congratulate yourself because they gave reasons for withdrawing from the exchange. those reasons are on the thread and i read all of them. Summary: they do not want to continue an exchange if you would rather abuse, prove unintelligent or diversionary in your responses.You won't be able to imagine how I can't stop laughing at your rubbish and baseless excuses. But you really need to read your post again and I bet you'll either laugh at yourself or cry for yourself. 1. You celebrate the christmas because you have the freedom to think within the christian faith...of course a christian faith that has told you christ was born on 25(: of december? A christian faith that has a boundary covered to make your priests choose an idol celebration day and blind your eyes so you can swim in ignorance. A christian faith indeed, but that which your pastors have decided to go against(in their quest of pocket evangelism) allowing their wives to give sermons and even go ahead to head the churches (1 cor 14:34) and in your stack ignorance shout halelluyah, instead of stoning them. Listen to yourself. 2. All of this I've stated above does not make you to close your eyes abash and you claim to know the truth. I pity your condition. 3. Yes it shall be requested from them all, for Islam as a religion goes against it too. The muslim clerics that have come out to go against it have been killed, the public sites bombings also have muslims as victims. The man who instigated the eagle square bombing(forgot his name), who was later caught in SA is not a muslim and we muslims have not put the christians in hell. Besides, the minister for police affairs has clearly stated that so high profiled figure in Nigeria are taking advantage of poverty as a situation to use this people for their own personal purposes. You christians only rant at this because of your clear hate for Islam. 4. No one lied you said, but if that's true, then maybe you have to tell me if this verses are the same or are both the truth; 2 Kings 24:8 8 Jehoiachin was eighteen years old when he began to reign, and he reigned in Jerusalem three months. And his mother's name was Nehushta, the daughter of Elnathan of Jerusalem. 2 Chronicles 36:9 9 Jehoiachin was eight years old when he began to reign, and he reigned three months and ten days in Jerusalem: and he did that which was evil in the sight of the Lord. In fact what do I need to understand in this. You should pity yourself if this does not disgrace you. 5. If you agree with me like a sane person on the above verses which apparently means someone lied in either, then we must agree that the bible has been corrupted. 6. I still agree with your first post on this, but the question is who that quote is refering to. |
| Islam › Re: Violence And Hate In The Quran by golpen(m): 4:19pm On Jun 08, 2013 |
Don't stand there dubbing what you have found on the internet. Prove any of them wrong. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 4:10pm On Jun 08, 2013 |
owo: After going through all the posts on this thread, I have arrived at the following conclusions;You have just demonstrated a typical scope of your religion. Even an insane man knows the fact that the three christian debaters have been swept out here. 1. You talk of ignorance, without knowing how deep you're swimming in it. You celebrate christmas, a date which was given to the birth of christ with no standing backings or reference. in fact, that date is the day used in worshipping a roman idol. And you join in the celebration as ignorantly as a foolish man can think of. 2. I'll agree with you on this fact here, but I'll put it that you sure don't know the concept of that TRUTH you talk about. 3. Other religious views like engaging in homo acts, you think should be accepted in islamic countries. Secular acts you call it, where your ladies dress almost naked to your place of worships and confuse you pastors?.. I shouldn't be arguing with you, cos you don't know what your saying. 4. The bible contains the truth you said, but what about the contradictions? Don't be so dumb to know that somebody must have lied. 5. Then a book like the bible which can stand alone and be recognised as a white lie is something to take notice of too. 6. Verily, " The mark of a mediocre / usurper is that, it only stands or projects itself by putting down or discrediting another." You have said and I quote. |
| Islam › Re: Dr. Zakir Naik In Nigeria From 8th June by golpen(m): 12:09am On Jun 08, 2013 |
It is a great pleasure to see different views of people on NL about this man Dr Zakir Naik.in fact, his presence in naija has opened the door for some NLanders to say rubbish jst for the sake a family on NL might acknowledge their post. Blabbing is free anyway. I should also say a great job done for the organising committee to have brought him down. May Allah reward them abundantly. And may Allah strengthen him and guide him in his steps and his words, to help people see the beauty of islam. 1 Like |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 6:00pm On Jun 07, 2013 |
To an extent, I have a feeling you have understood me. With my earlier explanation, I will try to answer your questions. 1. I have answered a couple of times that I have no answer to the question of if they are lost or alive, so I guess you're not as rooster- sure also. Maybe I'll try with some findings before getting back to you. 2. Allah never brought the Qur'an because they got lost. Like I've always said, the Qur'an is an update and a completion of these previous books, so I will not take the Qur'an to be their replacement, because the Qur'an is more of it. 3. Every prophet was raised together with his scripture- for a particular reason, (like Moses to take the isrealites back to canaan land), to a particular set of people (like Jesus sent to the lost sheep of isreal) at a particular time and with an upgrade of the previous ones (the commandments of God). But despite all these, they all bear the same message, which is preaching the oneness of God the supreme being. They come yes, with a new commandment with time, but will never cancel the old ones. Which is what Jesus himself said about his coming to this earth (coming to manifest the law and not cancel it). In the case of Muhammad (S A W) and the Qur,'an. Muhammad was raised as the seal of all the prophets that have visited earlier. Instead of being sent like those prophets earlier, he was sent to the whole world with the Qur'an which serves as a completion of the previous books... Allah said; "This day have I perfected your religion for you and completed My favor upon you and have chosen for you Islam as your religion.” [Quran 5:3]. Therefore, the Qur'an comes as a perfection to the ways of worship that has been illustrated earlier by the previous books. 4. I think I have answered your question in three. These are my answers to your questions and I hope I have tried to answer them. I also hope you look at it from a rational angle so you may understand. Peace. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 9:17pm On Jun 06, 2013 |
@cleanvessel I should modestly hint at my disconfort in answering your questions because, I already stopped thinking about this thread, focusing on some more interesting ones. And besides, I have already answered most of your questions in my previous posts. Anyway, I will take my time to try repeat and answer the unanswered ones. 1. The inconsistencies of the bible is not what make it not to be the torah and injeel. There is a characteristic amongst all scriptures sent from God; they are revealed to men through a single person(the prophet), prepared to take the challenge of passing the message in it across. The torah, the injeel, the Qur'an and other scriptures of the like possess this characteristic, but you'll agree with me the bible does not possess this. It is rather a collection of books written on different subjects, by different people. I only talked about the inconsistencies of the bible when the op was trying to back the bible with a qur'anic verse he misinterpretated. No part of the qur'an was written after the death of the prophet Muhammad (S A W). What happened is this; during his lief time, revelations come to him and caught the companions mostly unawares, irrespective of time or place, so writing was done on any available pad (leaves, scrolls, bones etc) which made a volatile record of the Qur'an. However, some companions endeavoured to memorize all of it by heart. After his death, when during the wars, it was discovered that majority of the memorizers were dying and going into extinction, a compilation was necessary which is what we have today (the book form). Of course the writing was made of men, and it was done with sincere loyalty. If there has been a fault, it would have been spotted over the years. In fact, the Qur'an is the book that best describes the arabic language in every aspect. 2. Here, I have given an example of a surah in the holy Qur'an (surah 87), where after Allah's words indicates that all he said in that surah is in the earliest scriptures of Moses and Ibrahim. The chapter is jst one amongst others of the likes. 3. I don't have an answer to whether the torah or other books can be found as a book, but with the example I've given above, I can authoritatively tell you that the Qur'an contains all of them and even an update of the information they have passed in their times, so, they are not lost. You want anything from them, pls contact the Qur'an and get even more. 4. they have not vanished. 5. The question is a conclusion to the article, if truely the bible has been corrupted or not. The problem is this; many christians by virtue of their dogmas (also mostly applicable to every religion), have not taken their time to look into the structure of the bible. The bible is a book compiled by various people, giving their respective conflicting and contradicting opinions on different subjects ranging from history and misconcepted messages. Take for instance the phrase "and God said" appears 42 times in the old testament and appears only 9 times in the new, compared to scriptures like the torah and the Qur'an where every of the words in it is from Allah. I hope you understand more than I have tried to put it to you. Peace. |
| Islam › Re: Dr. Zakir Naik In Nigeria From 8th June by golpen(m): 2:31pm On Jun 05, 2013 |
Paschal007: anybody can write whatever s/he likes on wikipedia. UK banned him for terrorist preaching. Take it up to them if you don't like it or go hit your head on the wall. SSS should put the likes of you that would attend that lecture on terrorists watchlist.  Paschal007: anybody can write whatever s/he likes on wikipedia. UK banned him for terrorist preaching. Take it up to them if you don't like it or go hit your head on the wall. SSS should put the likes of you that would attend that lecture on terrorists watchlist.Lol...I agree with you on being on your terrorist watchlist in as much as I'll be on it together with you fellow christians and reverends who can't wait for him to be around. 1 Like |
| Islam › Re: Dr. Zakir Naik In Nigeria From 8th June by golpen(m): 1:51pm On Jun 05, 2013 |
Christians can be falsely and adamantly dogmatic. It's a pity they can't even figure out a simple logic in their religion. It's better for their pastors anyway, because if the christian population should wise up, there's a big deal. And that's why they won't ever dare confront the man in question in a debate. It would mean a havoc on their business. 3 Likes 1 Share |
| Islam › Re: Dr. Zakir Naik In Nigeria From 8th June by golpen(m): 12:25pm On Jun 05, 2013 |
NL member: Zakir Naik is coming to NigeriaI'm so sure you'll get a deserved answer- maybe not what you think, but just prepare an answer in case you're asked what you call a 12 year old mary marrying a 90 year old joseph. 2 Likes |
| Islam › Re: Dr. Zakir Naik In Nigeria From 8th June by golpen(m): 12:05pm On Jun 05, 2013 |
Paschal007: That man has been banned from UK and Europe for his extremist preaching. With the kind of islamic insurgency we're facing now, he should be denied entry into Nigeria.I have noticed with my little time spent here on NL that misconception and misinterpretation is in the blood of most christians and that is why even their bible is full of contradictions due to misinterpretation of a simple message that has gotten to various people. Check zakir naik on wikipedia in the segment 'terrorism" to see the full statement he made on "every muslim should be a terrorist", before knocking your head on the wall. 5 Likes |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 10:42am On Jun 05, 2013 |
I don't understand why christians won't make me stop laughing. Let me start from here; Nextpart is the new name for @truthman2012 who started this thread, so it is the same person, but do you understand why he had to change his name?...I told him in his last post here. What else did you say sef?... Ehn ehn - my abusive style of argument you hinted at. And that is towards who? Towards a man probably of an older age I guess, but what do you call an abusive word towards the creator of everything? Have I ever made an abusive statement to Jesus? No, because as a muslim, I love him and accept him as a prophet of Allah. Make your checks before passing your judgement. In this debate so far, you guys have only tried to shy away from giving answers to my questions, tried to stop talking about a part which you have no points any longer, bring up baseless claims to cover for your confusion and of course tried to twist my words to aid further confusion...(Ojoro). How do you say you have won when you can't answer a question about whether the bible has been corrupted or not? You now find defence in blaming what is unblameable of the Qur'an for the bible's predicaments. You have failed to proof to me that the bible is the Torah and the gospel, so what?. I guess you have also admitted you don't have anything you think is sensible to say any longer (the previous you've said are no different) and I wonder how old you are if nextpart got his translated copy of the Qur'an in 1980 abd still talks this way. Indeed, age is not a measure of intelligence! Bye bye. |
| Islam › Re: Dr. Zakir Naik In Nigeria From 8th June by golpen(m): 10:03am On Jun 05, 2013 |
I Seriously can't stop laughing!!! Look at how frustrated christians are raving. You guys don't really need to die- life is sweet abeg. You are free to attend and not to. And seriously too, it should be a pleasure for every nigerian that this legend and his 17 year old son are setting their feet in Nigeria insha Allah. Well, maybe not a pleasure for nigerian pastors anyway, his presence will only bring retardation in the growth of their markets. He's coming and there's nothing anyman can do to it.I wish him a mostly safe trip under the guidance of Allah, and pray he lives long enough in good health to keep helping people to the right path. I'll also say sorry to those who are affected by his presence or see his presence as a threat. Life os pretty guys, stop nagging! 14 Likes 1 Share |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 11:24pm On Jun 04, 2013*. Modified: 9:32am On Jun 05, 2013 |
@pointblank Hmmmm!!! I think there's something common to christians on NL. When you loose an argument, you tend to keep shut about it, then bring up another claim to cover up for your lags. I think I asked you to give me an answer an proof backing it first before putting forth your claim. Allah has challenged any man who doubts the authencity of the Qur'an to bring forth a verse on their own which matches any of the Qur'an. If you also do doubt, then you may try the same. See, like I have analysed to @nextpart, the bible is not a scripture but a literature. A book consisting of conflicting views of different people about different history. I still maintain that it contains some parts of the words of God, but have also mostly been misconcepted or misinterpreted. That is the structure of the bible. You still have a chance of answering my question anyway. But wait! Where's @nextpart (truthman2012)? I don't want to think he took to his heels leaving you here to start mumbling for words. You have really tried your best too though. Thanks and God guide you to the right path. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 11:19pm On Jun 04, 2013 |
pointblank 321: If the first five books of Moses were corrupted from the first chapter according to you, it still amounts to the fact that Allah was unable to protect Torah otherwise men would not have been able to corrupt it. Allah said nothing can change his words and yet men corrupted it. Man decision came to pass against the wish of Allah. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 3:19pm On Jun 04, 2013 |
@pointblank I think we have agreed that the story is a plot to contaminate the image of the prophet (S A W) and I'm using this opportunity to call for Allah's deserved reward for who so ever initiated that false story and those who carry it around without looking into the logic and the sentiments. You need to shake off the dogma in you and take a travel to the land of rationality. If you ask me to tell the world to believe in the torah which may be found in the bible, what of the corrupted ones. That brings me to the topic here...the first five books in the OT is supposed to be revealed to Moses which is the torah right?, so what is the name of the book revealed to Jesus christ himself. 'The bible' is not an answer, because the new testament compruses of books from different men after his death and none of those books is His. I agree the first five books of the bible is that of moses, but it has been corrupted, from the first chapter. Get the debate I asked @nextpart to get to find out more. And because a higher percentage of the contents of the bible are of men, we have conflicting and contradicting views, leading to the confusion of millions of christians. If there is anything that looks like the torah in the bible and has a standing authencity, there is a more updated version of the same information in the Qur'an, so muslims don't need the bible at all. This takes us back to the topic here; with the debates and arguments so far, what do you have to say of the topic. The question is; "Has the bible been corrupted or not?" (Answers with proof to back your points pls, before any other claims). Thanks. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 8:42am On Jun 04, 2013 |
@pointblamk I can clearly prove to you that the torah and the injeel is not the bible, though we may have some dose of the torah which is of moses in the OT. The bible does not have any prophet it is assigned to as a whole. It is a mere compilation of books written by different people, most of which is Paul. The OT is the compilation of the stories of the people of the books you are talking about, and not the book itself. You have the stories of Ezra, Nehemiah, the songs of solomon and of david and all of that are not the scripture. They are stories which the christians learn from. Of course like I said, it contains a dose of the torah. The NT was written and compiled after the death of Jesus. The stories of his childhood, his wonders and miracles up till crucifixion. So with all these, how can you call the bible the torah or the other books? I have explained to you that though those books are a seperate one from the Qur'an, the Qur'an still contains them and even more!. I have read the story by @cleanvessel. It is interesting indeed. The author has neatly plotted the lies, borrowing from the dummy of the story of david and huraiyah. Muhammed according to him, saw zainab from the window as david saw huraiyah's wife in the bathroom. Muhammed also sent zayd to an unprepared war as david did to huraiyah, both in a bid to kill their threats. What a plot! What a lie!.. The holy prophet never had a standing army of course and managed to win the whole of mecca and the neighbouring cities too. He would never send an army to war unless he was with them and was the closest to the enemies. So I wonder where the author got his hoaxful lies from. We should always fear God in our dealings even with the people not of our faith. Ask @cleanvessel to give out his references so we may check for authencity just like the bible asks us to find out the truth. Thanks |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 10:07pm On Jun 03, 2013 |
@pointblank I agree with you that this issue of the books be discussed here. But before we proceed, I will like to know what your claim is. Are you claiming that the torah and the injeel are the bible?...if yes, what are you proofs? And if you accept its not, then you have to agree with me that all of these earliest books are all included in the Qur'an as I have said. As to whether we can find them or not, I don't have a specific answer for that, but I'm sure they are included in the Qur'an and you have not been able to fault my claim. Why should I start looking for them when contacting the Qur'an (which contains them and even has more in it) is readily available and is enough to guide me all through my life endeavours?.. On zaid's released wife; you seem not to have gotten my point, maybe I should get you an illustration. If you send your son on an errand and because there was no change, he bought more of it with the remaining money. Now, this case lies in two ways; it is either you correct the kid to go return some to get your change or you justify his act of buying more of the particular good for the fear of not getting the change in a later time. Either it was his making or not: 1. The three parties never complained. 2. The prophet (S A W) got a revelation justifying this act of proposing. 3. Zainab herself testified to the revelation after consulting Allah in her prayer and she was always proud of the fact that every lady was given to a husband by her parents but Allah himself gave her hand to the prophet. This means it wouldn't have been prohibited even if it wasn't the prophet that did it hence, he would have been corrected against it, if it would have been prohibited (just like in surah 80) One thing you should learn is this; prophets don't live their lives like normal human. They are guided by the Almighty who has sent them, so their lives are designed to be emulated by those who follow them. Go check each and every of them. The problem you guys have is the fact that you intentionally don't want to accept Muhammad (S A W) as a prophet. We muslims emulate every prophet Allah has sent, even ISA (A S W)that you call Jesus. Thank you. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 2:42pm On Jun 03, 2013 |
@pointblank, pls I can't get the thread you refered me to. You may kindly send me the link here so I can get to read it... Thanks. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 2:33pm On Jun 03, 2013 |
pointblank 321: @golpen: You said the statements in surah 87 is contained in the previous books of Ibrahim and Musa. Was that all Ibrahim's and Musa's Books contained? The quran never claims it is a replacement of Taurat and Injil, rather it refers to them as separate Books. Again, where can we find the Books or Scrolls of Ibrahim and Musa or the Taurat and Injil the quran mentioned? Changed or thrown away? Or better still, do you have them?@pointblank I really have to highlight that you are not so different from @nextpart (@truthman2012) in your arguments. I think this point of the torah and injeel here should be another thread entirely, so that you can have a clear understanding of my points. The questions you guys are asking me are so baseless because you don't have your specific answers to them. Its like faulting a teacher for saying 1+1=2, without having your own answers to prove him wrong. And just like @nextpart (let me save calling him by his old name truthman2012), you have started the same trick of twisting my words. I only gave surah 87 as an example of the numerous places where the Qur'an points to the contents of the earliest books. In fact if you continue to argue my claim, then what is contained in the previous scriptures that is not in the Qur'an?... Give me an answer to that before we can proceed in this particular argument. In fact, I think we are derailing from the basis here. The topic is about the corruption of the bible of which @nextpart has given in on the defeat. On that of marriage, what is the problem you have with it after almighty Allah has given approval of the marriage? You should note that both issues remaining here are not the basis of the topic. Give answers to my questions here and if you have no good answers, let's close up the topic. Thanks. |
| Islam › What Non-muslims Scholars Have To Say Of Muhammad And Islam by golpen(op): 8:34am On Jun 03, 2013 |
In the midst of the shallow thinking views of non-muslims who have studied the Qur'an, Islam and Muhammad (S A W) in a bid to antagonise the muslims, these set of non-muslim scholars have somethings to say high of him. They are the prolific and seasoned eminents who have studied the religion with a high rational view. In fact, among them is a reverend. Let's see what they have to say; What non-Muslim scholars said about Prophet Muhammed (peace be upon him) Nepolean Bonaparte – Quoted in Christian Cherfils BONAPARTE ET ISLAM (PARIS 1914) “I hope the time is not far off when I shall be able to unite all the wise and educated men of all the countries and establish a uniform regime based on the principles of Qur'an which alone are true and which alone can lead men to happiness.” M.K.Gandhi, YOUNG INDIA, 1924 "...I became more than ever convinced that it was not the sword that won a place for Islam in those days in the scheme of life. It was the rigid simplicity, the utter self-effacement of the prophet, the scrupulous regard for his pledges, his intense devotion to his friends and followers, his intrepidity, his fearlessness, his absolute trust in God and his own mission. These, and not the sword carried everything before them and surmounted every trouble." YOUNG INDIA, 1924 Lamartine - Histoire de la Turquie, Paris 1854, Vol II, pp. 276-77: "If greatness of purpose, smallness of means, and astounding results are the three criteria of human genius, who could dare to compare any great man in modern history with Muhammad? The most famous men created arms, laws and empires only. They founded, if anything at all, no more than material powers which often crumbled away before their eyes. This man moved not only armies, legislations, empires, peoples and dynasties, but millions of men in one-third of the then inhabited world; and more than that, he moved the altars, the gods, the religions, the ideas, the beliefs and souls... the forbearance in victory, his ambition, which was entirely devoted to one idea and in no manner striving for an empire; his endless prayers, his mystic conversations with God, his death and his triumph after death; all these attest not to an imposture but to a firm conviction which gave him the power to restore a dogma. This dogma was twofold, the unit of God and the immateriality of God; the former telling what God is, the latter telling what God is not; the one overthrowing false gods with the sword, the other starting an idea with words. "Philosopher, orator, apostle, legislator, warrior, conqueror of ideas, restorer of rational dogmas, of a cult without images; the founder of twenty terrestrial empires and of one spiritual empire, that is Muhammad. As regards all standards by which human greatness may be measured, we may well ask, is there any man greater than he?" Edward Gibbon and Simon Ocklay - History of the Saracen Empire, London, 1870, p. 54: "It is not the propagation but the permanency of his religion that deserves our wonder, the same pure and perfect impression which he engraved at Mecca and Medina is preserved, after the revolutions of twelve centuries by the Indian, the African and the Turkish proselytes of the Koran...The Mahometans have uniformly withstood the temptation of reducing the object of their faith and devotion to a level with the senses and imagination of man. 'I believe in One God and Mahomet the Apostle of God', is the simple and invariable profession of Islam. The intellectual image of the Deity has never been degraded by any visible idol; the honors of the prophet have never transgressed the measure of human virtue, and his living precepts have restrained the gratitude of his disciples within the bounds of reason and religion." Rev. Bosworth Smith, Mohammed and Mohammadanism, London 1874, p. 92: "He was Caesar and Pope in one; but he was Pope without Pope's pretensions, Caesar without the legions of Caesar: without a standing army, without a bodyguard, without a palace, without a fixed revenue; if ever any man had the right to say that he ruled by the right divine, it was Mohammed, for he had all the power without its instruments and without its supports." Annie Besant, The Life and Teachings of Muhammad, Madras 1932, p. 4: "It is impossible for anyone who studies the life and character of the great Prophet of Arabia, who knows how he taught and how he lived, to feel anything but reverence for that mighty Prophet, one of the great messengers of the Supreme. And although in what I put to you I shall say many things which may be familiar to many, yet I myself feel whenever I re-read them, a new way of admiration, a new sense of reverence for that mighty Arabian teacher." Montgomery Watt, Mohammad at Mecca, Oxford 1953, p. 52: "His readiness to undergo persecutions for his beliefs, the high moral character of the men who believed in him and looked up to him as leader, and the greatness of his ultimate achievement – all argue his fundamental integrity. To suppose Muhammad an impostor raises more problems than it solves. Moreover, none of the great figures of history is so poorly appreciated in the West as Muhammad." James A. Michener, 'Islam: The Misunderstood Religion' in Reader's Digest (American Edition), May 1955, pp. 68-70: "Muhammad, the inspired man who founded Islam, was born about A.D. 570 into an Arabian tribe that worshipped idols. Orphaned at birth, he was always particularly solicitous of the poor and needy, the widow and the orphan, the slave and the downtrodden. At twenty he was already a successful businessman, and soon became director of camel caravans for a wealthy widow. When he reached twenty-five, his employer, recognizing his merit, proposed marriage. Even though she was fifteen years older, he married her, and as long as she lived, remained a devoted husband. "Like almost every major prophet before him, Muhammad fought shy of serving as the transmitter of God's word, sensing his own inadequacy. But the angel commanded 'Read'. So far as we know, Muhammad was unable to read or write, but he began to dictate those inspired words which would soon revolutionize a large segment of the earth: "There is one God." "In all things Muhammad was profoundly practical. When his beloved son Ibrahim died, an eclipse occurred, and rumors of God's personal condolence quickly arose. Whereupon Muhammad is said to have announced, 'An eclipse is a phenomenon of nature. It is foolish to attribute such things to the death or birth of a human-being.' "At Muhammad's own death an attempt was made to deify him, but the man who was to become his administrative successor killed the hysteria with one of the noblest speeches in religious history: 'If there are any among you who worshipped Muhammad, he is dead. But if it is God you worshipped, He lives forever.'" Michael H. Hart, The 100: A Ranking of the Most Influential Persons in History, New York: Hart Publishing Company, Inc. 1978, p. 33: "My choice of Muhammad to lead the list of the world's most influential persons may surprise some readers and may be questioned by others, but he was the only man in history who was supremely successful on both the religious and secular level." Sarojini Naidu, the famous Indian poetess says – S. Naidu, Ideals of Islam, Speeches and Writings, Madaras, 1918 “It was the first religion that preached and practiced democracy; for, in the mosque, when the call for prayer is sounded and worshippers are gathered together, the democracy of Islam is embodied five times a day when the peasant and king kneel side by side and proclaim: 'God Alone is Great'... “ Thomas Caryle – Heros and Heros Worship “how one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades?” “…The lies (Western slander) which well-meaning zeal has heaped round this man (Muhammed) are disgraceful to ourselves only…How one man single-handedly, could weld warring tribes and wandering Bedouins into a most powerful and civilized nation in less than two decades….A silent great soul, one of that who cannot but be earnest. He was to kindle the world; the world’s Maker had ordered so." Stanley Lane-Poole – Table Talk of the Prophet “He was the most faithful protector of those he protected, the sweetest and most agreeable in conversation. Those who saw him were suddenly filled with reverence; those who came near him loved him; they who described him would say, "I have never seen his like either before or after." He was of great taciturnity, but when he spoke it was with emphasis and deliberation, and no one could forget what he said...” George Bernard Shaw - The Genuine Islam Vol.No.8, 1936. “I believe if a man like him were to assume the dictatorship of the modern world he would succeed in solving its problems in a way that would bring much needed peace and happiness. I have studied him - the man and in my opinion is far from being an anti–Christ. He must be called the Savior of Humanity. I have prophesied about the faith of Mohammad that it would be acceptable the Europe of tomorrow as it is beginning to be acceptable to the Europe of today.” 1 Like |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 8:27pm On Jun 02, 2013 |
pointblank 321: golpen: You need to be flogged according to sharia law. you know somebody is an elderly man and you are passing insult on him? or are you guessing he is? where is the moral in islam? i'm sure if you have the chance u will join boko haram.@pointblank I hope you won't change your name like your father as we move on on this. I agree I deserve to be flogged according to your own view of sharia, if you can state to me @nextpart's punishment for insulting Allah and the prophet Muhammad (S A W). So you make a check before passing your judgements. I think you are bringing in another claim that doesn't fit in to the point here. The history of a certain prophet does not appear at all in the scriptures revealed to him. So about that prophet may rather appear in subsequent books revealed to later prophets. You should not be vexed that the desciples of Jesus were not mentioned in the Qur'an in your claims that the Qur'an does not contain the previous books. I gave him a reference in surah 87 where after Allah's words in the chapter, points that all He has said is in the previous/earliest books of Musa and Ibrahim. If it was not permitted to marry a released wife of an adopted child, the verse would have come as a correction and not as justification. An example is in surah 80, where almighty Allah (SWT) corrected the prophet (S A W) who frowned at the interruption of a blind man, while he was trying to convince the eminent people of the city to accept the faith. The blind man wanted to accept the religion, at his sight of the prophet and the prophet who was trying at his chance of speaking to the big men frowned at the interruption. Read more on this in surah 80, you'll understand. I hope your claims are convincing enough. Thanks and God bless you. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 1:36pm On Jun 02, 2013 |
nextpart: "...... I have told you that the torah and the injeel are both included in the qur'an. If you need anything from those books and even others, pls contact the qur'an with a rational view".I should first acknowledge the change of name. I guess truthman is now being known for the opposite, hence, a change of name would be necessary. Kudos! All these references you have put forth are not faulting my claims, because I never claimed the Qur'an is the same as those books. But let me give you a clear explanation of one of your verses. "He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it, even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel". (Pickthall 3:3) This verse above is backing my claim. I told you the Qur'an comprises of the contents of the torah and the injeel and an update of the previous laws in those books, coupled with the set out of all human aspects, not that the Qur'an is the same as them. I think you are deliberately changing my words to mumble things up to cover for your lags (not your first time on this same thread). Now to the verse; "He hath revealed unto thee (Muhammad) the Scripture with truth, confirming that which was (revealed) before it" which states that the Qur'an is revealed as an update of the previous scriptures..., " even as He revealed the Torah and the Gospel". Here, it is saying that yes, they are not the same books, but have been produced by one Allah and by the same means (revelation), simple! I will not blame you sir, but will only advice that even if you don't have respect for your own self, do respect your age! Have even shifted completely from the bottom line, which is the structure of the bible. It is he who has held on to something appreciable that benefits from it. We muslims have held all prophets in a high esteem and so we are benefiting from the dividend. They have all lived a life of good example that we muslims follow. I am sure by the time Jesus himself comes back, his first mission shall be to repeat and severely this time around, the punishment he inflicted on those that has turned the churches into a business centre, before facing the anti-christ. The marriage of the prophet to Zaid's wife AFTER MUTUAL RELEASE is an illustration of the fact that such is acceptable according to islamic rule, since there was no biological attachment to him (S A W) and Zaid. You may solve your problem on the remaining yourself. "Conclusion: Allah is not capable of protecting his toral and injil if you say they are not the the Bible", you concluded but is that the basis of the argument? I guess you have lost your brilliance on this sir. You go get the clip I asked you, try hard not to sleep while dr William Campbell vomits and try rescue him from the hands of DR ZAKIR NAIK. Thank you! |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 10:13pm On Jun 01, 2013 |
truthman2012: @ golpenYou should not be offended if our replies infuriate you...most of your posts infuriate the muslims too. And besides I think the forum title states clearly "islam for muslims" and did not stop there. It goes further to tell that it is strictly for muslims, even the moderators, then I wonder what your business is here... You don't tag it an insult when you post aggressive articles, it becomes an insult when you you get a deserved response. If you take it to be an offence getting this responses, it is better you stop posting offensive articles that don't make any meaning! 1. You keep fabricating a defence from your own mere mind without taking notes of the consiquences after saying them. How can you tell me the christian prayer is a loud one when we have very many churches that pray as silently as ever. And I can't still understand why you keep seperating the uses of tongues on your own when the bible has not stated the classification as prayer or prophecying! I think misinterpretation is in the blood of the christians. You misconcept logical informations a lot and that contributed to the worse condition of the bible. I said "if 1 cor 14:23 condemns speaking in tongues in multiples, for the fear that christians might be tagged as insane", have I called the christians insane with that statement? And besides, that exactly is how the bible has put it, then you go on to loose your temper on that. I remember on this same thread, you were mixing up two different words (feel and understand). You have failed to defend your claims and when you are being defeated on an issue, you don't acknowledge it, you only bring up a new issue to continue the argument. 2. I have told you that the torah and the injeel are both included in the qur'an. If you need anything from those books and even others, pls contact the qur'an with a rational view. For your information, the holy prophet never had an intercourse with Zaid's wife. He only took her as a sense of her being under a responsible man. All of your claims about the Qur'an are all void...I have come to realise that you have a remote understanding of the Qur'an. How do I expect you to understand when some set of people have filled you with false cook-ups for you to believe. The funny thing is you accept those cook ups and call them your own scripture...what a pity. Thanks for the debate sir, it's been a match with you. Till Probably on some of your next post, if I find them attractive. We're still friends anyway sir. God bless you sir. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 9:32pm On Jun 01, 2013 |
truthman2012: @ golpenYou should not be offended if our replies infuriate you...most of your posts infuriate the muslims too. And besides I think the forum title states clearly "islam for muslims" and did not stop there. It goes further to tell that it is strictly for muslims, even the moderators, then I wonder what your business is here... You don't tag it an insult when you post aggressive articles, it becomes an insult when you you get a deserved response. If you take it to be an offence getting this responses, it is better you stop posting offensive articles that don't make any meaning! 1. You keep fabricating a defence from your own mere mind without taking notes of the consiquences after saying them. How can you tell me the christian prayer is a loud one when we have very many churches that pray as silently as ever. And I can't still understand why you keep seperating the uses of tongues on your own when the bible has not stated the classification as prayer or prophecying! I think misinterpretation is in the blood of the christians. You misconcept logical informations a lot and that contributed to the worse condition of the bible. I said "if 1 cor 14:23 condemns speaking in tongues in multiples, for the fear that christians might be tagged as insane", have I called the christians insane with that statement? And besides, that exactly is how the bible has put it, then you go on to loose your temper on that. I remember on this same thread, you were mixing up two different words (feel and understand). You have failed to defend your claims and when you are being defeated on an issue, you don't acknowledge it, you only bring up a new issue to continue the argument. 2. I have told you that the torah and the injeel are both included in the qur'an. If you need anything from those books and even others, pls contact the qur'an with a rational view. For your information, the holy prophet never had an intercourse with Zaid's wife. He only took her as a sense of her being under a responsible man. All of your claims about the Qur'an are all void...I have come to realise that you have a remote understanding of the Qur'an. How do I expect you to understand when some set of people have filled you with false cook-ups for you to believe. The funny thing is you accept those cook ups and call them your own scripture...what a pity. Thanks for the debate sir, it's been a match with you. Till Probably on some of your next post, if I find them attractive. We're still friends anyway sir. God bless you sir. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 9:16pm On Jun 01, 2013 |
truthman2012: @ golpenYou should not be offended if our replies infuriate you...most of your posts infuriate the muslims too. And besides I think the forum title states clearly "islam for muslims" and did not stop there. It goes further to tell that it is strictly for muslims, even the moderators, then I wonder what your business is here... You don't tag it an insult when you post aggressive articles, it becomes an insult when you you get a deserved response. If you take it to be an offence getting this responses, it is better you stop posting offensive articles that don't make any meaning! 1. You keep fabricating a defence from your own mere mind without taking notes of the consiquences after saying them. How can you tell me the christian prayer is a loud one when we have very many churches that pray as silently as ever. And I can't still understand why you keep seperating the uses of tongues on your own when the bible has not stated the classification as prayer or prophecying! I think misinterpretation is in the blood of the christians. You misconcept logical informations a lot and that contributed to the worse condition of the bible. I said "if 1 cor 14:23 condemns speaking in tongues in multiples, for the fear that christians might be tagged as insane", have I called the christians insane with that statement? And besides, that exactly is how the bible has put it, then you go on to loose your temper on that. I remember on this same thread, you were mixing up two different words (feel and understand). You have failed to defend your claims and when you are being defeated on an issue, you don't acknowledge it, you only bring up a new issue to continue the argument. 2. I have told you that the torah and the injeel are both included in the qur'an. If you need anything from those books and even others, pls contact the qur'an with a rational view. For your information, the holy prophet never had an intercourse with Zaid's wife. He only took her as a sense of her being under a responsible man. All of your claims about the Qur'an are all void...I have come to realise that you have a remote understanding of the Qur'an. How do I expect you to understand when some set of people have filled you with false cook-ups for you to believe. The funny thing is you accept those cook ups and call them your own scripture...what a pity. Thanks for the debate sir, it's been a match with you. Till Probably on some of your next post, if I find them attractive. We're still friends anyway sir. God bless you sir. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 9:16pm On Jun 01, 2013 |
truthman2012: @ golpenYou should not be offended if our replies infuriate you...most of your posts infuriate the muslims too. And besides I think the forum title states clearly "islam for muslims" and did not stop there. It goes further to tell that it is strictly for muslims, even the moderators, then I wonder what your business is here... You don't tag it an insult when you post aggressive articles, it becomes an insult when you you get a deserved response. If you take it to be an offence getting this responses, it is better you stop posting offensive articles that don't make any meaning! 1. You keep fabricating a defence from your own mere mind without taking notes of the consiquences after saying them. How can you tell me the christian prayer is a loud one when we have very many churches that pray as silently as ever. And I can't still understand why you keep seperating the uses of tongues on your own when the bible has not stated the classification as prayer or prophecying! I think misinterpretation is in the blood of the christians. You misconcept logical informations a lot and that contributed to the worse condition of the bible. I said "if 1 cor 14:23 condemns speaking in tongues in multiples, for the fear that christians might be tagged as insane", have I called the christians insane with that statement? And besides, that exactly is how the bible has put it, then you go on to loose your temper on that. I remember on this same thread, you were mixing up two different words (feel and understand). You have failed to defend your claims and when you are being defeated on an issue, you don't acknowledge it, you only bring up a new issue to continue the argument. 2. I have told you that the torah and the injeel are both included in the qur'an. If you need anything from those books and even others, pls contact the qur'an with a rational view. All of your claims about the Qur'an are all void...I have come to realise that you have a remote understanding of the Qur'an. How do I expect you to understand when some set of people have filled you with false cook-ups for you to believe. The funny thing is you accept those cook ups and call them your own scripture...what a pity. Thanks for the debate sir, it's been a match with you. Till Probably on some of your next post, if I find them attractive. We're still friends anyway sir. God bless you sir. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 4:38pm On Jun 01, 2013 |
truthman2012: @ goipen@truthman2012 I'll presume we've agreed on some of our issues; - that the verses of the qur'an u quoted does not in any way refer to the bible, therefore it nullifies each of your claims in this article. - that the bible is a dilution of words of men with different contradicting and conflicting views put together certainly with a dose of some words of God! And that those words which are of men have been highly corrupted, hence giving errors as a result. My assumption is based on the fact that you have stopped hitting at these points above, in trying to convince me, but you rather have brought up another issue, trying to cover up for the lags as your way of acceptance of my facts. I will anyway answer your questions about them. 1. Yes! Every muslim must accept the torah and the injeel as a book sent by God for the guidance of man, and indeed Allah according to his words has succeeded greatly in protecting it. I know your question will be "how?" But if you are calm and patient, I will explain to you. The Holy Qur'an is a book designed by Allah to accomplish and complete the message to mankind, giving reflections of the past and the commandments (which is contained in the previous books) check surah 87 in your qur'an. In view of this, the previous books are not lost, and Allah has succeeded greatly in protecting them. 2. If the bible in 1 cor 14:23 condemns speaking in toungues in multitude because people may tag the christians as insane, and then the same bible in acts 2:1-4 claims its possibility, I think something is wrong with the bible somewhere. And I should well acknowledge how paul has succeeded in his manipulations of the bible, giving several advices that made the bible a confusing one today. 3. Here, I should acknowledge that factory where you fabricate your defence for the bible. If the indecency of some people wouldn't have affected the integrity of the bible (nothing can affect the integrity of God positive or negative), why then were the reviewers of the bible trying to manipulate some euphemisms to make it acceptable. (References available on request). In fact, accepting that those indecent statements were not made by God further proves my claim that the bible is made up of WORDS OF MEN and little of that of GOD. On the qur'anic verses you have quoted, I am so surprised that you claim to have got a translated version of the qur'an around 1980-a year by which I am yet to be born- and ever since, you are yet to understand some basic facts and reasons. I'm sure it's because you read the qur'an to antagonise and not to learn from it and that is why you have not. The verses quoted talks of Zaid (an ADOPTED son of the prophet (S A W),whose wife was taken by the prophet (S A W) after when Zaid himself and the lady had resulted to divorce. This was done in an era when there were very few muslims in the city therefore leaving a lady in spinsterhood for a long time meant exposing her to be hijacked by the pagans. So tell me what is indecent in that compared to those places where the bible portrayed God asking isrealites to get drunk. Read the qur'an with understanding sir and with a sense of rationality. For by that you shall realise the real truth. Thank you sir. |
| Islam › Re: Nobody Can Corrupt The Bible by golpen(m): 12:48am On May 31, 2013 |
Uyi Iredia: Good questions. The same must also apply to the Q'uran.1. As truthman2012 has quoted, Allah's words which is the qur'an and other books listed cannot be changed. 2. You can go through the qur'an and bring me a word which is of man. Please be sure of your quotes. 3. You'll find or must have started finding your answers from the previous posts. Thanks |
