₦airaland Forum

joseph1832: Please ask your questions(s)

Meaning you've stepped forward to answer my question(s) right? Good! Here is it but let me warn you ahead, religious people might be offended if you truly answer according to what is said o. Here's the text question:

New Living Translation (©2007)
Then Jesus called to the crowd to come and hear. "Listen," he said, "and try to understand. It's not what goes into your mouth that defiles you; you are defiled by the words that come out of your mouth." Then the disciples came to him and asked, "Do you realize you offended the Pharisees by what you just said?" Matthew 15:10-12

Question:
Will Wine or Alcohol be also part of what GOES INTO YOUR MOUTH and yet you are NOT considered defiled or uncleaned

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That's not what this thread is about and that's not what I'm saying. This thread is about whether the physical water in baptism itself is what washes away our sin? The answer is NO. Should we be baptized into water by immersion? YES!

CrazyMan: That man needs to move his headquarters to Nigeria...Nigerians need to be freed from the bondage of tithing.

Whenever you hear of Apostle Goshen in the nearest future preaching\teaching the freedom from the bondage of tithing in our dear country Nigeria, behold and look no forward.......I AM HE!

gunuvi: Pastor watch ur back!!!
Nigerians daddy GOs can kill u o..

Chrisbenogor: @frosbel
Herd mentality, people are not willing to change. My pastor just said his tithe is seven figures . Atm machines are installed in the church, pos terminals for those who did not come with money.
All this coming in tax free

I know what the problem is and also know where the solution is. By the Grace of God, I will be part of the solution.

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If you like take my words out of context. By 'outside the body of Christ', I meant 'in the circular world'. I hope you read when I also said 'within'?, meaning 'among the body of believers'. Stop taking my words out of context.

There're two (2) systems of tithing

1. The PRE-law tithing and
2. The law (of Moses) tithing

I'll try to be concise even though I love to teach intensively for students to understand. Lemme begin with the PRE-law tithing.

1. The PRE-law tithing.

Tithe teachers when been scrutinzed in sound doctrine\teaching. That is, teaching that MUST agree from Genesis to Revelation, they return to the pre-law tithing by Abraham and claim Christian ought to continue tithing because scriptures says as many are of faith are the seed of Abraham. Studying biblical text is the key to the truth. Abraham is relevant to Christianity because 1, He is the 'biological' father or 'patriarch' of the Jewish Nation through which his linage the promised of Messiah will descend. 2. Abraham is 'type' of them that of called and responded by faith, hence Abraham 'believed' God and it counted to him for righteousness. That is how we, Christians who are called and responded in 'faith' are engrafted into God's family.

11Circumcision was a sign that Abraham already had faith and that God had already accepted him and declared him to be righteous—even before he was circumcised. So Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith but have not been circumcised. They are counted as righteous because of their faith. 12And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, but only if they have the same kind of faith Abraham had before he was circumcised. 13Clearly, God’s promise to give the whole earth to Abraham and his descendants was based not on his obedience to God’s law, but on a right relationship with God that comes by faith. 14If God’s promise is only for those who obey the law, then faith is not necessary and the promise is pointless. 15For the law always brings punishment on those who try to obey it. (The only way to avoid breaking the law is to have no law to break!). 16So the promise is received by faith. It is given as a free gift. And we are all certain to receive it, whether or not we live according to the law of Moses, if we have faith like Abraham’s. For Abraham is the father of all who believe. Romans 4, New Living Translations

Extracts:

1. Abraham is the spiritual father of those who have faith (in Christ Jesus) but have not been circumcised - The Gentiles.

2. And Abraham is also the spiritual father of those who have been circumcised, - The Jews....but only if they have the same kind of faith (in receiving the promise of the Messiah in which the families of the earth shall be blessed)

3. Abraham tithed to Melchizedek in Genesis 14 from pagan's properties recovered from war, not from his personal income

4. Abraham was already rich in Genesis 13 and blessed with Silver, Gold and Cattles without any record of tithing.

5. Abraham's was not obeying any God's law or commandment to tithe according to Romans 4:13 but today's churches had hidden under Abraham's example of tithing and made it monthly law for Christians to pay tithe.

6. Abraham's example of tithing is NOT monthly 'payment' of tithe; it was an example of 'giving' - Study the text in Hebrews 7:4 and Genesis 14:20; the word 'pay' did not occur in Abraham's action - it was a perfect example of giving.

7. Abraham's tithing could not have been acceptable under the law of Moses because it was pagan's properties and not of Abraham produce of faith.

2. The law (of Moses) tithing.

Many Christians do not understand or know that what was quoted in Malachi 3:8-10, the text being used by many churches with the threat of being curse to teach tithe to Christians originated under the law of Moses and was carried until the time of Malachi and even until the time of Christ. What then is God's biblical tithing under the law of Moses?

Extracts:

1. Tithe was only crops and animals, never money even though money existed from Genesis. Hence, God's original tithable items are crops and animals, money was never an acceptable tithe under God's law for the national Israel, NOT Christians. - Leviticus 27:30-32

2. The tithe is the LORD's BUT He gave it to the Levites. Levites are temple workers with Aaron the priest. (Numbers 18:20-29)

3. In modern day, Aaron will represent pastors while Levites will represent church workers e.g ushers, choirs, etc

4. God NEVER asked Aaron to receive tithe BUT the Levites (Numbers 18:20-29) and the Levites will give Aaron 'tenth' past of the tithe they receive. Therefore, if biblical tithing is to be practiced today, the biblical right belongs to workers in worship places not pastors. The workers will then give tenth part to pastors.

5. There's provision in God's biblical tithing for tithers to EAT their tithes ONLY WHEN CONVERTED TO MONEY. That is, God's original tithe is never money but when you tithe in money, God says used the money to buy whatever your heart desire and eat including strong drink\alcohol. Deuteronomy 14:22-29

6. Malachi 3:8-10 is NOT addressing the church. It was addressing the priest who were stealing\robbing God's tithe in those days. The context of the audience of Malachi that carried into Chapter 3 started from Chapter 2:1,4,7,3:3. The context is consistent - God wasn't addressing the church through Malachi as there wasn't Christ's church yet at that time; God was addressing the Levitical Priesthood - They were talking tithe and robbing the portion of God to Aaron as commandment in Numbers 18.

7. Matthew 23:23 is still the Old Testament for Christ has not fulfilled the law yet. The law of Moses was still in effect and the tithe in Matthew 23:23 is still food, not money. Also, it is still a matter of the law that is practiced by the scribes and pharisees, not Christ's disciples\Apostles.

8. Only those that produced crops and animals in Israel are commanded to tithe. Jesus was a carpenter, our Lord never tithed. Peter was a fisher man, he never tithed. Paul was a tent maker, he never tithed and Paul said, follow me as I follow Christ. The tax collectors never tithe. Luke, never tithed. The commandment to tithe was only applicable to those who produced crops and animal IN ISRAEL.

9. There is nowhere in the New Testament where any of the Apostles mentioned the word 'tithe' or 'tithing' for Christians. Rather, the book of Hebrews 7 cancelled and ended tithing because the dispensation of the law of Moses had ended. It is wrongly dividing the word of truth to teach that we are not under the law of Moses but still hold onto only tithe which was not even money in the first place.

10. Hebrews 7:5 talks about 'commandment to take tithe given to the levites' as per Numbers 18 I mentioned above. In verse 16, it talks about 'commandment that is required for being a levitical priesthood' - one must belong to the tribe of levi. In verse 18, it says there is VERILY a disannulling of the 'commandment' going before. What commandment is he talking about? The context of commandment refers to 2 things - to take tithe (verse 5) and requirement for being a levitical priesthood (verse 16). Therefore, if the levitical priesthood is gone, the commandment to take tithe is also gone\disannulled. The 'commandment' disannulled must included the two pointer\specific things commanded in context. Hence, the book of Hebrews 7 ended tithe for Christians after the death and resurrection of Christ.

11. Christ is the foundation of Christian faith, taught to his disciples and carried on into the New Testament that started AFTER his death and resurrection. Christ never said, "tithe and it shall be tithed to you". He never said, "tithe and you shall be blessed or it will make you blessed". Christ said, "Give and it shall be given to you" This is the message of New Testament carried on by the Apostles. A Christian is at liberty (from the law of Moses) to practice Grace based giving as in 2 Corinthians 9:7.

I suppose spiritual authorities are suppose to know how to behave better within and outside the body of Christ. How can God's people be cursed to speaking against evils of spiritual authorities? I just can't understand this message? What kind of immunity does these spiritual authorities have that they cannot be corrected 'if' they err?

@ Dr. Creflo Dollar, I need an answer sir.

There're many poor people in Nigeria who pay tithe but still live below 2 USD per day. Before coming to the United States, I have two registered businesses - one, a cybercafe and the other a Grasscutter farming. Both expanded without limits and till date except for the cybercafe that I deliberately closed down due to my absence. I can't remember paying tithe to grow these two businesses.

The Gospel you guys preach makes it like it is by paying tithe that one become rich and\or blessed. I stopped tithing when I found out from the word it is not a Christian law and till date I'm blessed even more than when I used to tithe on those days. Church people needs to learn hard work + prayer (faith) + financial management that = riches\wealth. All through the Bible, show me ONE man that became rich\wealthy by paying tithe and I will show you men that proved their is dignity in labour in their faith in God.

Finally, the doctrine of tithe had been uncovered to be the biggest religious fraud of our days. God does not love a cheerful tither but God loves a cheerful giver. I don't tithe but I give like crazy! It's my nature that was transfered to me in Christ. Hebrews 7 discusses tithing before the law and after the law; in both - tithing is nullified and cancelled. Therefore, ask those who had been tithing for years especially in Nigeria and are still brook, still borrow from friends\family, are still in debt, etc etc. Does that mean the God that blesses the likes of JC Penny you mentioned is partial not to bless those who tithe and are still borrowing? Tithing is nowhere taught in the New Testament or among the Apostles for Christians.

John's baptism is different from the Christian baptism. In John 1:23-27, John preaches to prepare their hearts and to look for the Messiah who is able to forgive sins. In John 1:29, he introduces Jesus as the Lamb of God who takes away the sins of the world. Apparently, if water washes sin, John's water baptism would have done that and he (John) would not have looked forward to another (Christ) who takes away the 'sins' of the world. In verse 31-33, we find John is baptizing to reveal the Christ to Israel, his ministry is then to decrease and Jesus' is to increase.

In Matthew 3:11, John contrasts his baptism by water with Jesus' baptism by the Holy Spirit (Mk. 1:8 )."I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance but He who is coming after me is mightier than I. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." (Mk. 1:7-8 )

Acts 1:5, Jesus said to them "For John truly baptized with water; but you shall be baptized with the Holy Spirit not many days from now." Jesus is making a distinction between water and Spirit baptism, just as John did. John's water baptism always showed repentance - It looked forward to Christ whom they would receive. The Holy Spirit's work would be inward. This is the spiritual work of God to regenerate a believer and put them supernaturally in the body of Christ. Water can never wash away sins in a literal sense since it is from the outside.

The sin nature is inside which only God can reach and cleanse, which is why baptism must be viewed as a symbolic ceremony of the inward change by the Spirit Himself. Forgiveness and cleansing are in the person and work of Jesus, not the 'symbol' of cleansing itself via water baptism. To trust the ceremony alone or with Christ's work is spiritual suicide. From looking at all the text we find that John baptized people unto repentance looking forward to the Son of God, the Lamb who alone takes way our sins - John never could say your sins are forgiven or washed away via water baptism, but Jesus did without water baptism.

You be our member? @ OP

Mintayo: tithe paying is not mosaic law!

If tithing is not mosaic law, then what is it? If you say it exists before the law with Abraham, then what law did he obeyed and when did such law became a tithing law for the church? Did Abraham paid tithe from his personal income or pagan war loots ?

Tithing is CANCELLED for Christians. Hebrews 7:1-20. Verse 5, 12, 16 & 18.

italo: I would like to debate all of you at the same time...but that is practically impossible.

So will the one who has never bowed before anything (living or non-living) please step forward.

I want to have a word with you.

Stepped forward! Can I hear what you gat to say?

He will never come back and if he does, he will come dodging or twisting or throwing words rather than answer the question raised.

laughing in tongues .....but it's not funny at all.

Hey, whatz up son of God, shdemidemi,

Keep 'em coming! You're doing good in God's Kingdom!

christemmbassey: @all, i wonder y G.O still dey silent 4 ma case, bro Bookmark, e b like say G O de listen to u o, pls talk to am bout ma case, when i get that levite office, na me and prophet Bidam.

As I no answer to your case, your brother Image123 don answer na,

Image123: Perhaps, out of the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. You overrate yourselves BTW.

^^^

Thank you also. We fellowship one with another and spread the truth.

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Trust me, as many more people are coming to the knowledge of truth; there will come a time when a pastor is preaching this tithe, people will be laughing at him. Watch it!

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Hey, whatz up son of God, striktlymi, I can see you are doing well answering questions of God's people. Remain blessed!

[quote author=tpia@]Frosbel and goshen tend to derail threads with irrelevant rantings. Maybe they should consider staying off serious topics.[/quote][quote author=tpia@]topic

Most bible believing churches arent a one man show, and in instances where it seems there are, there are factors which need to be brought into consideration.[/quote]How are we then derailing threads when we speak against the ones (churches) who are NOT following bible instructions?

@ kramer and alexleo,

alexleo: Nowhere in the New Testament r we advised to stop tithing. You people are just preaching on assumption and am not part of it.

Good kweshion, Its in Hebrews 7 vs 18 is where we're told tithe\tithing is disannulled, cancelled and ended. When you read\study scriptures, always ask question what 'commandment' is disannulled in verse 18 therein? If you don't know, then read within the context again from verse 1 and underline any verse(s) where you read the word 'commandment' and what the commandment is SPECIFICALLY for; then re-read and follow through to verse 18 again. Whatever commandment is noted before verse 18 is the commandment that is disannulled in verse 18 and ask y'self if you have 'commandment TO TAKE TITHE' before verse 18. That's the New Testament scriptures that STOPPED\ENDED\CANCELLED\DISANNULLED tithing for Christians.

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God who gave us His word also gave us 'how' to interpret. No scripture is of 'private' interpretation he says. Scriptures must interpret another scriptures rather than men forcing their meanings into the scriptures. Also, scriptures must be read in context, verse-by-verse.

Take for instance, when scriptures says God created the world in 6 days. Some people teach otherwise that Gap exist but context tells us using the phrase, 'the evening and morning' is the first days....second day etc. Now, tell me, what Gap exist between evening and morning other than 24 hours time frame? The TRUE and TRUSTED interpretation is allow scriptures to interpret itself in context; anything other than that is falsehood. That's way to know the right interpretation sir.

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The reason is men have refused to interpret scriptures with scriptures which amounts to God's way of 'literal' bible interpretation. I hope to do an intensive course\thread on bible interpretation if I have the time to. God's word doesn't contradict; it compliments. Genesis must agree with Matthew and Luke must agree with Revelation.

[quote author=frank3.16]Na waooo

But waitoo, I thot it had been said here quite often that wen one reads the bible with a pure and honest quest for truth, the holy spirit will make him understand the word of God so as o make good use of it...

Are there different holy spirits or is it one but interpretes different things to different pple?

It is good to pay tight, no it is not
It is good for woman to wear trouser, no it is not
There is hell fire where pple will burn and gnash their teeth for ever, no there is none
Women should wear earings and perm their hair, no they shuldnt
It is good to worship on sunday, no its saturday
God knew man will fall before creation, no he didn't know

And it goes on and on... Is the holy spirit a confusion spirit? What are we reallu doing?[/quote]The reason is men have refused to interpret scriptures with scriptures which amounts to God's way of 'literal' bible interpretation. I hope to do an intensive course\thread on bible interpretation if I have the time to. God's word doesn't contradict; it compliments. Genesis must agree with Matthew and Luke must agree with Revelation.

Joagbaje: One man leadership has always been Gods way of leadership. He chooses a leader and gives him subordinates . Gods leadership is trianglelar

Even for the New Testament church? Yes?

Seconded!

Bidam: OK.let's start our conversation. where is it stated in the NT that we shuldn't tithe?

Good kweshion, It's in Hebrews 7 vs 18. When you read, ask question what 'commandment' is disannulled in verse 18? If you don't know, then re-read within the context again from beginning and underline any verse(s) where you read the word 'commandment' and what the commandment is SPECIFICALLY for; then re-read and follow through to verse 18 again. Whatever commandment is noted before verse 18 is the commandment that is disannulled and ask y'self if you have 'commandment TO TAKE TITHE' before verse 18.