₦airaland Forum

ijawkid: Jesus being the agent Yahweh used in creating the things in heaven and on earth isn't what I'm arguing....I believe that through Jesus,creation occured.....

Our issue here is with the word ""elohim"" in genesis 1:1 in the plural form.....

your quoting john 1:1 doesn't still show that the elohim in genesis 1:1 is referring to a triune Godhead....no and never!!!...

...The title ""elohim"" draws attention to Yahwehs strength as the creator..In that same genesis the word ""elohim"" appears 35 times by itself in the aCcount of creation,and every time the verb describing what he said and did is in the singular number(genesis 1:1-2:4)........

I asked you my brother...::::

The plural elohim was used in deuteronomy 6:4.....can you please prove how plural the elohim used in that verse can get to prove that it is talking about a triune Godhead....

I'll also want u to read judges 16:23....

23 Now the rulers of the Philistines
assembled to offer a great sacrifice to Dagon
their god and to celebrate, saying, “Our god
has delivered Samson, our enemy, into our
hands.”

In that verse ""elohim"" was used....but ofcus we know how many Gods were mention there in judges 16:23.....

Yahweh like I've always said is the almighty,The God over all,the God of Christ,is the God mentioned there in genesis 1:1.......

For you to assume and conclude that elohim in genesis 1:1 is referring to a triune Godhead will be inconsistent with the rest of genesis and the whole bible and spurious..............

I want u to apply your elohim analogy to deuteronomy 6:4...that reads...

Young's Literal Translation
Hear, O Israel, Jehovah our God(ELOHIM plural) is one
Jehovah;....

Elohim there is in the plural form...would you say it means there are 3 Yahwehs that is one God??

Because the one God there is associated to Yahweh alone....and Jesus himself made this known....

You saying the elohim in genesis 1:1 in the plural form must mean the triune Gods then you gotta read d whole of genesis very well.....

No Jew would pick up genesis 1:1 and begin to think of the elohim mentioned there representing 3 co-equal Gods......never!!!!...

Only a trinitarian would think that way.....

Na wha for you my brother. My issue about Genesis 1:1 and John 1:1 is due to the truth that they both mention and started with the Phrase "in the beginning". And they both made this phrase in connection with CREATION account. Context is everything my brother. If Elohim is used as plural in one context doesn't mean it will be used as plural in another context. I just proved the fact and truth that the "God" mentioned in Genesis 1:1 is plural in number, using John 1:1 because they both talked about "in the beginning and creation. It is not just plural of majesty or name, number is included.

If you DONT have problem with Jesus in His Deity and being called God through whom creation exist. Then we are fine. We can move on the the Holy Spirit as being God. Let me know when you are ready.

Goshen360: @ Frosbel,

I have started a thread to debate you since you also proposed a Theological Debate with this thread. I volunteer to debate you. Kindly come on this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/1069078/want-debate-frosbel-deity-christ

Frosbel....I hope you are not pretending not to see this post

@ Frosbel,

I have started a thread to debate you since you also proposed a Theological Debate with this thread. I volunteer to debate you. Kindly come on this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/1069078/want-debate-frosbel-deity-christ

[size=20pt]ONLY FROSBEL AND GOSHEN PLEASE.[/size]

Reason: So we can be focus, objective and avoid distractions in our discourse. The Bible teaches there is One True God. Meaning there are other false gods which is represented by the use of upper and lower case "G" accordingly. In this One True and Living God, there are Three distinct being and they are all called God as we have written in the scripture. Hence, The Father is God. Jesus Christ is God and the Holy Spirit is God. Frosbel have on the attack against the deity of Christ and had attempted to extinct the Holy Spirit in his recent articles. I have decided to debunk and refute his theology by starting this thread. I will appreciate ONLY Frosbel in this thread so that at the end, God's people will be taught the truth and have the evidence of the True God.

Awaiting Frosbel.

ijawkid: I don't know where you are arriving at as to the co-equality issue.....

Lucidly express your stance......

Jesus being in the nature of God,does that make him equal with Yahweh??...

I really wanna hear you say something....

Okay. I know what you are saying. I also want us (you and I) to be objective in our discourse. Otherwise, we will just be jumping and ranting all over the thread. I have stated clearly using scriptures, not my own words....Jesus said the Father is Greater than him. Herein I stand. The Apostle also said, the Head of Christ is God....by "God" the Apostle meant the Father. The Philippians 2:6 also says Christ himself did not thought it to be EQUAL with God, God here in this context is the Father, Yahweh confirming the words of Christ as per John 14:28. Herein I stand and very clear. The father is Greater than Christ and doesn't mean Jesus is NOT also God. Do you understand my stance

ijawkid: As to the word ""elohim"" it conveys no thought of plurality of persons within a Godhead.......shikena

The hebrew word ""elohim""(gods) appears to be from a root meaning ""be strong""..Elohim is the plural of eloh'ah(god)..sometimes this plural refers to a number of gods(you can read genesis 31:30,32;;35:2),but more often it is used as a plural of majesty,dignity or excellence..Elohim is used in the scriptures with reference to Yahweh himself,to angels,to idol gods(singular and plural) and to men.....

You could go throught deuteronomy 6;4...

It uses the word ""elohim""....try fixing up plurality to the word elohim @ deuteronomy and let's see how it works........

ijawkid: I just replied u ......

Elohim mentioned @ genesis 1:1 in no way suggests a host of Gods( particularly the triune Gods) in a Godhead....

Genesis 1:1 solely refers to Yahweh the almighty....

Gbam!!!!

Okay.....My principle are always using scripture to explain scripture.....Okay. Now, this is how I understand that the bible proves the word "God" in the context of Genesis 1:1 is Plural of person and NOT just plural of majesty or just a name of deity. Please follow my careful explanation below:

Genesis 1:1, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

Here it mentions a phrase, "in the beginning". Another verse ampliplied Genesis 1:1 telling us about same phrase of "in the beginning". That is John 1:1, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". Now we have two verse from scriptures that talks about same phrase "in the beginning" and both are related to CREATION. Both doesn't suggest God has a beginning for God is Eternal.

Now, the verse in John 1:1 made us understand the plural of the "God" of Genesis 1:1 but it doesn't call it God"s". John 1:1 says, the Word is God and it also says the Word was with God. It therefore means from the context of John 1:1, there is God that the Word was with and also still identifies the Word as God. Is the word just an expression by which we communicate our thought according to John 1:1? The answer is NO. How did we understand the Word is NOT just the type we speak? First, the bible uses the lower case "w" to differentiate. The Word as per John 1:1 is Christ and He is called God. Second, John in verse 2 personifies "the Word" which he talked about in verse one and uses "He". It therefore means a spoken word cannot be "He". It means He is a person or being. This is how we understand the plurality of the word "God" in Genesis 1:1 to be person using scriptures to explain scriptures.

Both John and the Apostles now ascribe CREATION to "the Word" who is Christ saying that, "Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made".(NIV). NLT says and mention creation ascribed to HIM...."God created everything through him, and nothing was created except through him". In context, the God in verse 3 of John 1 is the Father, the "him" is Christ (not a spoken word but a being) and it relates to CREATION. The Apostle Paul puts it same and similar way in Colossians 1:16, "For by him (that is Christ) all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him". If ALL things were created by him and John calls him God that was WITH God, the Father or Yahweh according to NLT in John 1:1,3....If he is called God, it therefore proves the plurality of numbers in the meaning of God as mentioned in Genesis 1:1. Let me stop here a while and let me get your response.

ijawkid: If u don't follow the rules of context,we might end up concluding that all the places the hebrew word ""Elohim"" is used its always reffering to plural Gods...

Ready??....

Why are you dodging this question. Context applies as you rightly said. I want you to explain the plurality of the context of Genesis 1:1 for the word "God"

ijawkid: Apostle said what??

Even though Jesus was God abi?? Which God??start explaining which God Jesus was....
Was he a divine being or a co-equal God with the Father??

God being eternal means God has no beginning,that God can and was never begotten.....

I think we should stick to names and not titles...because the title ""God ""can refer to just any person.....

Let's stick to Yahweh(God almighty) and Jesus......I think that'll make perfect sense......

And you haven't really cleared the air on co-equality.....

You seem to be hanging on the fence....

Is Yahweh greater than his son??

Is Yahweh the God of Jesus??

Do we share d same God with Jesus??.....

Abeg no allow Frosbel run away today. I want to get him and you also today. Okay, let's handle issue one after the other. Since you believe and accept that not ONE person is called God in the bible from your statement,

"I think we should stick to names and not titles...because the title ""God ""can refer to just any person....."

On the issue of equality......Jesus said and I believe,

New International Version (©1984)
"You heard me say, 'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I. John 14:28.

About the words of Apostle Paul that Jesus having the nature of God but did not thought it to be equal with God,

New International Version (©1984)
Who, being in very nature God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped,

New Living Translation (©2007)
Though he was God, he did not think of equality with God as something to cling to. Philippians 2:6.

I don't think this is too hard to understand. If you understand this, back to Genesis 1:1....The word "God" there is Elohim and is PLURAL....How do you understand that....Ijawkid

ijawkid: Are u implying that when genesis 1:1 says ""in the beginning "God" created the heavens and earth,that the God there is the triune GOD??

Goshen Oooooo.......

Okay.....can you explain how the word "God" that is translated Elohim and is Plural will mean Let's go/start from there

ijawkid: Are they co-equal??u forgot that bro.....trinitarians say the Father and his son Jesus are equal in everything....heresy or not??

Besides we still have the holy spirit issue to deliberate on.....

Jesus said the Father is greater than him......That answers the question of being co-equal or not. The Apostle says Jesus even though was God did not thought it to be equal with the Father. That answers it right there again. As for the Holy Spirit being God.....Let's start this way......When it is said that God is Eternal.....How do you understand that God is Eternal

frosbel: Please do not add to the word of GOD, do not imply meanings into what does not exist.

If it cannot be clearly described as it is to many, throw it out.

The bible says, Prove ALL thing, right!........I demanded you/us to prove who are the "us". Did Angels created anything Didn't the bible ascribe creation with the Father, Yahweh Didn't the scripture ascribe creation with Jesus Didn't the Holy scriptures ascribed creation with the Holy Spirit By the way why are you avoiding the initial question and playing smart on me.......The word "God" in Genesis 1:1 is Elohim and it is PLURAL, not singular...HOW DO YOU EXPLAIN THAT

frosbel: Sir, I do not dodge.

Even angels were called Elohim in the Bible.

Besides, it does not mention numbers, last time I checked it out 'Let us ' is not equal to 3. for all we know it could be a million.

It doesn't mention numbers right and correct! BUT WE CAN PROVE THE "US" USING SCRIPTURES TO PROVE SCRIPTURES. Angels are there in creations BUT did NOT participate in creation. Jesus was there in creation and participated in creation. Holy Spirit was there in creation and also participated in creation..........SO MY DEAR BROTHER, WHO ARE THE "US"

frosbel: The Holy Spirit is simply GOD's Spirit .

Jesus said :

"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." - John 4:24

God does not have 2 Spirits, he has ONE Spirit, he is Spirit.

Okay. Very Good point. As I was engaging you on the other thread and you are dodging me. If God is Spirit in nature and God has one Spirit. How can God being a Spirit still have a Spirit If you can prove that a Spirit (God) can have a Spirit, the we can conclude that the Holy Spirit is NOT distinct from God. But if You cannot prove that God being a Spirit CANNOT have another Spirit, it will then mean that the Holy Spirit is distinct from the Father.

frosbel: Me dodging ? Or you mean your friends.


You are yet to show me ONE Verse where GOD says he is 3.

Rule no.6

6. A belief may not be claimed to be so obvious that it is not even mentioned in the Bible, then said to be a central tenet of faith.

You are missing the WHOLE point. Don't let me start a thread for u and me ONLY o...... . You say I should show you one verse where God says he is 3. I started by telling you to explain Genesis 1:1 where the word for God is Elohim and it is PLURAL, you dodged it. The point am making is this, Throughout the scriptures, the bible calls the Father God, Jesus God and the Holy Spirit God......what more do you want or do we disapprove scriptures that calls each of them God

frosbel: wrong.

Jesus became a being when he was conceived in his Mother's womb.

So he wasn't a being BEFORE THE WORLD BEGAN How come Jesus can speak of his person about BEFORE the world began EVEN IN HIS HUMAN FORM What then is He......a wind a literal word used in expression of thought and communications Tell us what He is please.

frosbel: 5/10

I gave you 5 marks here because Jesus is not called ANYWHERE in the BIBLE GOD the SON !

I told you I have time for you this week, starting from today..... . See one of your problem is you are taking one scripture as a stand alone. You have to take the scripture as a whole all together to explain and interpret scripture. The word God the son is not in the bible BUT the concept is evidently undeniable. How? Verses called Jesus God and verses called him in his human form son of God, what then do we conclude from those verses put together? The possible explanation is to use the phrase, God the Son.

frosbel: 0/10


"God is spirit, and his worshipers must worship in spirit and in truth." - John 4:24

Overall Marks 50%


You passed, only just

You are not too far from the truth.

You are still dodging the exposition I demanded you to do and do it with justice. If God is Spirit, CAN A SPIRIT HAVE ANOTHER SPIRIT

Goshen360: This is where we have issue. You see the Holy Spirit as Father's Spirit. To say that, you insinuate God, the Father has a body in order to have a Spirit. Since God is Spirit, can we then say a Spirit (God) can have another Spirit . If we can prove from scriptures that a Spirit (God, the Father who is a Spirit, John 4:24) can also have Spirit, then I will submit to you that you are RIGHT. But if we cannot prove from scripture that a Spirit CANNOT have a Spirit just like man has a spirit, then I submit to you that the Holy Spirit is NOT God, the Father's Spirit and it is distinct from the Father and a separate being. I will then submit to you that the Holy Spirit is also identified as God in the Bible. Are you ready for debate.......

I really want you to explain how God who is a Spirit can still have a Spirit ......If the Holy Spirit is NOT distinct from the Father who is Spirit, God. John 4:24

frosbel: how about v14 where John clarified what he meant in John 1:1 :

v14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Let us dissect this important verse :

1. Word became Flesh
2. Made his dwelling among US
3. We have seen his GLORY
4. Glory of the one and ONLY SON.
5. Who came from the FATHER


Seriously Goshen bro, can you after reading this verse still confess that JESUS is GOD without laughing ?

Very Good. The point here is this, the Word that was called God in verse 1 and personified as "He" in verse two proves that it is NOT a literal word used in expressing thought. He is a being! The same "Word" that was called God BECAME FLESH, that became human. This means when he became human, what He is called in human form, after He became flesh is "Son"....from the Father. What glory is John talking about Jesus himself answered this question,

New International Version (©1984)
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:5

frosbel: Do you agree that we have :

1. Father GOD or YAHWEH , the ONE and ONLY true GOD

The Father is God, Yahweh

frosbel: 2. Lord Jesus, SON of the Living GOD

Jesus is son of God or God-son as described in the bible. He is also called God in many scriptures. Do you agree with that

frosbel: 3. Holy Spirit - Father GOD's Spirit , totally inseparable from HIM.

This is where we have issue. You see the Holy Spirit as Father's Spirit. To say that, you insinuate God, the Father has a body in order to have a Spirit. Since God is Spirit, can we then say a Spirit (God) can have another Spirit . If we can prove from scriptures that a Spirit (God, the Father who is a Spirit, John 4:24) can also have Spirit, then I will submit to you that you are RIGHT. But if we cannot prove from scripture that a Spirit CANNOT have a Spirit just like man has a spirit, then I submit to you that the Holy Spirit is NOT God, the Father's Spirit and it is distinct from the Father and a separate being. I will then submit to you that the Holy Spirit is also identified as God in the Bible. Are you ready for debate.......

frosbel:
Rule no.6

6. A belief may not be claimed to be so obvious that it is not even mentioned in the Bible, then said to be a central tenet of faith.

Is this the answer to my question Again I will demand you to explain HOW you understand Genesis 1:1 so we can have discussion - meaning you listen to me and I listen to you, our viewers can judge.

Goshen360: Good question. This is one issue you have - waiting to read EXPLICITLY where the Bible says God is Three. If that is what you are looking out to read. Am sorry to burst your bubble, you wont read that explicitly BUT the same Bible calls or identified Three being as God. What possible explanation can we then give to this as interpretation And the Bible also says God is One. How do we explain God is One and yet same Bible calls Three being God This is where hard study play the role. Let us start this way from the very first verse of the bible that tells us about God, the first mention of God.

New International Version (©1984)
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

The word "God" here is Elohim and it is plural.......The Bible also consistently ascribe creation to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. How do you explain that .

ijawkid: You are welcome bro....

Ready your scriptures to prove that the holy spirit is God o.....

I dey kampe.....

Remember::::::.......my mission here is to make sure that persons know that Yahweh is greater than Jesus and that Jesus isn't the almighty(Yahweh is the God of Jesus).....that Yahweh and his son aren't co-equal.....

My job is to re-direct and make persons appreciate Jesus's role as mediator and high priest......too many persons have been obssessed with the trinity that they've flung Yahweh(The God and Father of Jesus Christ,and the God over all) into the dust bin...

Reducing Yahweh to be equal with his Son is what i can't sit down and watch....

Many insinuating that Yahweh died because of this same triology doctrine is what I will not be part of.....


The definition of the trinity does not tally with the bible......

Thank you!!!!....

Thank you my brother. I will soon start to expose the falsehood of Trinity in some later thread. When people say Jesus is same as the father, this is heresy. I do not believe Jesus is the Father, I believe they are different BUT I stand by the bible truth that Jesus is God, The Father is God and the Holy Spirit is God. It is NOT one God playing 3 different roles and yet the bible teaches God is one. We will get there soon. Thank you.

plappville: Why are you taking it as an attack? This man is doing a good work for God.
John 1 is telling you that Christ is the "word" of God, He revealed God to us when He came to earth.
And the word was God, God wouldn't be revealed if not for Christ. Its not telling you that God came to earth to die for you, for God cannot die.

Besides, you cannot use only one varse of the bible to balance ur claim.

Okay. There is a difference in using "w" as a lower case to describe the word. Jesus is NOT the word with lower case "w", that will mean a literal word used to express our thought and communication. I am NOT here to play on words, am here to defend the fact the Bible by the inspiration of the Holy Spirit calls Christ God. The question to you is, IF CHRIST IS JUST A LITERAL WORD USED TO EXPRESS THOUGHT AND COMMUNICATION, WHY DID JOHN IN VERSE TWO PERSONIFIED THE WORD AS "HE".......He was with God in the beginning. John 1:2. I haven't built theology on one verse mind. I have got many scripture that calls Jesus God. However, I believe Jesus is NOT the Father.

frosbel: My brother, I do not want to beat about the BUSH.


Show me WHERE GOD or anyone in the BIBLE says GOD is THREE and I will match each verse you bring with 10 verses that SHOW that GOD is ONE.

Surely this is not hard , no ?

Good question. This is one issue you have - waiting to read EXPLICITLY where the Bible says God is Three. If that is what you are looking out to read. Am sorry to burst your bubble, you wont read that explicitly BUT the same Bible calls or identified Three being as God. What possible explanation can we then give to this as interpretation And the Bible also says God is One. How do we explain God is One and yet same Bible calls Three being God This is where hard study play the role. Let us start this way from the very first verse of the bible that tells us about God, the first mention of God.

New International Version (©1984)
In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Genesis 1:1

The word "God" here is Elohim and it is plural.......The Bible also consistently ascribe creation to the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit. How do you explain that.

frosbel: It is strange that Trinitarians have to resort to cherry picking of disconnected passages of scripture to support a core tenet of our faith , something which should be so obvious it cannot be missed.

If this is so core, why is it not explicitly stated anywhere from the OT to the NT that God is 3.

Why can we not accept the verdict on the person of Christ by the apostles which is that JESUS is the Christ , Messiah , Son of GOD , Son of MAN, Mediator etc.

GOD says he is ONE, I have provided tons of verses to prove this concept , and what do our trinitarian pals do, they run off looking for counter verses that vaguely suggest that Jesus is GOD.

At best , the Trinitarians are actually Dualitarians , because they can only show us scripture where God the Father and Lord Jesus are depicted side by side, yet nothing to support another third person.

I can prove from the OT to the NT that GOD is ONE with amazing consistency and harmony. I do not need to search for particular verses in the NT that support a non-existent concept while using non-biblical formulas to relate to a non-existent belief.


Why must we divide GOD , if GOD is Spirit why can we not accept that his Spirit is the HOLY Spirit, why are we denying JESUS his flesh and bones humanity , and spreading error that he the second member of a bogus trinity.

I am still waiting for evidence that GOD is 3.

Remember rules 6 & 7.

6. A belief may not be claimed to be so obvious that it is not even mentioned in the Bible, then said to be a central tenet of faith.

7. Defence of a belief should not be based on a verse that is only translated as a defence in a certain version of the Bible. The verse should also not be used if it is shown to be an addition by later writers to the original text.

Okay. I have time for you this week. You and I will go head to head this week. So expect to see me follow you up on every statement you make in attack against the deity of Christ, okay . I even like you to start a thread for debate, you and I.........The Bible calls the Father God, Jesus God and the Holy Spirit God. What problem do you have with that? Is human the same as God? God can be everywhere BUT humans can't be everywhere. God is eternal but humans are not etc. I can as well show you from scripture that NOT one being is called God from Genesis to Revelation and yet the bible teaches God is One. How do we then explain that

First, start by attending to this question

Goshen360: I gave you two scriptures and you turned them down. Let's keep going and I give you another shot that refutes all anti-Jesus as God and let's see what you have to say about it since you are now arguing Jesus is NOT God.

New International Version (©1984)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

Here, there is a "Word", not the one used to express your thought and communicated as identified with lower case "w" but "W", the "W"ord. In this verse, there is a "the Word" (not "a" Word) that was WITH GOD and that last phrase says "and the Word was God". You guys have said, it was a spoken word that is used in expression of thought and communication BUT verse two refutes you,

He was with God in the beginning. John 1:2

Now how do you explain verse two that personifies the Word and used "He".....repeating the same phrase "was WITH God" of verse one. CAN A WORD USED TO EXPRESS THOUGHT BE "HE" IF HE IS NOT A BEING/PERSON

ijawkid: Mind u goshen I didn't refute those verses u quoted,I only spotted out errors in the translations you used,while I brought and used translations that actually explains. The verses better and that agrees with the rest of the scriptures.....

As for Jesus being the Word that was with GOD,it seems you got it wrong thinking that I believe that ""the Word mentioned there was a spoken expression""....I don't agree with that...

So direct your question well....

Thanks my bro

Okay, you are let loosed then. My contention is with you and Frosbel denying the deity of Christ as God. Good you cleared yourself. I will later proceed to the Holy Spirit as God later on today or this week. I get time for you and Frosbel this week....E be like say I don keep quite for too long and una don show una self for too long. Thank you for clearing yourself.

We are waiting for Frosbel, because am getting ready to start another thread with him this week BUT I will wait to see how this one goes. FROSBEL..........Where art thou

frosbel: John urges us to believe in a Jesus who is authentically a human being, not an angel who became man, nor an eternal Son of God who became a man.

Throughout the New Testament we are exhorted to believe that Jesus is the Christ. The Church is to be founded on Peter’s confession of Jesus as the Messiah (Mat. 16:16). John wrote his entire gospel to persuade us to believe that “Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God” (John 20:31). The early church in Acts “kept right on teaching and preaching Jesus as the Christ” (Acts 5:42). Paul “proved that this Jesus is the Christ” (Acts 9:22, cp. Acts 17:3, 18:5, 18:28). It is the “Man Messiah” who is the one mediator between the One God and man (I Tim. 2:5). No wonder, then that the spirit of antichrist denies that Jesus is the Messiah. This is the arch-lie: “Who is the liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ?” (I John 2:22, 5:1).

It is crucially important to understand that the Messiah promised by the Old Testament was to be a real descendant of David (II Sam. 7:14). God would be the Father of this descendant, according to the promise, but the Messiah would be “the fruit of David’s body” (Psalm 132:11). There is no hint here or elsewhere in the Old Testament that God had been the Father of the Messiah for all eternity, much less that the Messiah was to be the uncreated member of an eternal Trinity. Rather, he was to be a “prophet like Moses” raised up from an Israelite family (see Deut. 18:15-18, Acts 3:22, 7:37). The traditional Jesus of the creeds is alien to this Biblical picture of the Messiah. (See also our article, “Luke 1:35: Systems in Conflict.”)

The real Jesus of history in whom Luke believed was the Son of God, not because He had been God from eternity but because of his miraculous conception. In Mary’s womb a real human person came into existence. Note the direct causal link between Jesus’ coming into being as the Son of God and the miracle which happened to Mary:

“The holy spirit will come upon you [Mary] and the power of the Most High will overshadow you, and for that reason the holy offspring shall be called the Son of God” (Luke 1:35).

This Jesus is a genuinely human person, though supernaturally conceived. He is the descendant of David. If he were not he could not prove his claim to be the Messiah. If, however, this person is actually God, putting on “impersonal human nature,” why would his descent from David matter? Could one not receive “impersonal human nature” from a mother of any nationality? The theory that the person of Jesus is not that of Mary’s Son begotten by the Father in Mary (Matt. 1:18, 20), but that of a preexistent person surely destroys both the genuineness of Jesus’ humanity and his descent from David.

The Jesus of Trinitarian and Chalcedonian theology is officially not a human person — ”man” but not “a man.” Such theological jargon, as many realize, is in desperate need of revision. The most important question of all is whether the Chalcedonian Jesus, in whom millions profess belief, qualifies as the one who came “as a human being” (I John 4:2). The difference in John’s mind between the real human Jesus and the one who only appears to be a man is the difference between light and dark, Christ and antichrist. One may profess to believe in Jesus as Messiah but negate this confession by denying that he is a fully human person. This the ancient creeds, so long hallowed by tradition, appear to do.

A theologian who discussed the history of belief in Jesus claimed that most of the so-called orthodox leaders of traditional Christianity were in fact Apollinarians. Apollinarius was convicted of the heresy of denying that Jesus was fully a human being (Dr. C.E Raven, Apollinarianism, cited by O.C. Quick in Doctrines of the Creed, p. 178). In other words “orthodoxy” has harbored a subtle form of a heresy which it condemned in others — that Jesus was not authentically human. Maurice Wiles, formerly Professor of Theology at Oxford University, was right when he said:

“The church has not usually in practice (whatever it may have claimed to be doing in theory) based its understanding of Christ exclusively on the witness of the New Testament” (The Remaking of Christian Doctrine, p. 55).

The following extraordinary admissions by prominent Trinitarian writers, experts on the creeds, should be carefully noted:
“In the debates of the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, Leonard Hodgson (The Doctrine of the Trinity, 1943, pp. 220,223) points out that ‘the unitarians [those who believe with the Bible that the Father only is the True God, John 17:3; 5:44; I Cor 8:4-6] as well as their opponents accepted the Bible as containing revelation given in the form of propositions, and concludes that ‘on the basis of argument which both sides held in common, the unitarians had the better case.’ And yet for all that it was not the unitarians who won the day. Christological doctrine has never in practice been derived simply by way of logical inference from the statements of Scripture” (Maurice Wiles, The Remaking Of Christian Doctrine, p. 55, emphasis added).

Protestants who claim to derive their faith exclusively from the Bible should give careful attention to this remarkable statement!

John’s Truth-test (I John 4:2, II John 7) is critically relevant to our times. Belief in Jesus as the Christ, a real human descendant of David is still the Biblical criterion for proof that one is drawing inspiration from the spirit of Truth. It remains as true as ever that the fundamental doctrinal test of the professing Christian has to do with his view of the person of Christ. The denial of the humanity of Jesus is the fatal flaw detected by the Johannine test. God’s Son is the Son of Mary and of David. Of sonship prior to His conception in history the Bible has nothing to say. Such a notion is destructive of Jesus’ genuine humanity and genuine descent from David. Jesus, the Jewish-Christian Messiah, needs urgently to be reinstated at the heart of Christian devotion. Belief in Him and in His Father, the only true God, leads to salvation (John 17:3).

Source

And the attack against the deity of Christ continues

Why don't you start from the verse first verse of John the Apostle

italo: John 1:

1 In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. 2 He was with God in the beginning. 3 Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made.

14 The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.

Okay @ Ijawkid my dear brother,

I gave you two scriptures and you turned them down. Let's keep going and I give you another shot that refutes all anti-Jesus as God and let's see what you have to say about it since you are now arguing Jesus is NOT God.

New International Version (©1984)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

Here, there is a "Word", not the one used to express your thought and communicated as identified with lower case "w" but "W", the "W"ord. In this verse, there is a "the Word" (not "a" Word) that was WITH GOD and that last phrase says "and the Word was God". You guys have said, it was a spoken word that is used in expression of thought and communication BUT verse two refutes you,

He was with God in the beginning. John 1:2

Now how do you explain verse two that personifies the Word and used "He".....repeating the same phrase "was WITH God" of verse one. CAN A WORD USED TO EXPRESS THOUGHT BE "HE" IF HE IS NOT A BEING/PERSON

Many people are still confused about the subject of God......lolz. God is not a name of one being. The Father is called God. Jesus is called God and the Holy Spirit is NOT a force or power but also God. They all have their personal names stills that distinguished them one from another. This is what the concept of God says in the Bible.

@ OP, Do you think Jesus is God? The simple answer is YES! But Jesus is NOT the Father neither is He the Holy Spirit.

Romans 9:5,

New International Version (©1984)
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

English Standard Version (©2001)
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

Amplified Bible (AMP)
To them belong the patriarchs, and as far as His natural descent was concerned, from them is the Christ, Who is exalted and supreme over all, God, blessed forever! Amen (so let it be).

And I heard Jesus himself say this,

New International Version (©1984)
And now, Father, glorify me in your presence with the glory I had with you before the world began. John 17:5

What is this "glory" that he talked about? I will not guess. Let the bible explain itself using scriptures to explain scriptures.

New International Version (©1984)
1. In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.
2. He was with God in the beginning.

Here in verse 2, the Word is NOW personified as "He".....note.

14. The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the One and Only, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth. John 1:1-2, 14.

This is the glory Jesus talked about in John 17:5. He was with God BEFORE the creation and John made us understand He is also God. The earlier you guys start to understand that scripture does not use the name "God" for one being, the earlier you understand the scripture. Otherwise, we can as well tear scriptures apart and void verses that calls Jesus Christ God.

@ Frosbel and Ijawkid,

Okay, another scriptures for you that Apostle Paul believed and called Jesus God. Since you guys are now disapproving the Kjv, I will quote from many other translations. Romans 9:5

New International Version (©1984)
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen.

New Living Translation (©2007)
Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are their ancestors, and Christ himself was an Israelite as far as his human nature is concerned. And he is God, the one who rules over everything and is worthy of eternal praise! Amen.

English Standard Version (©2001)
To them belong the patriarchs, and from their race, according to the flesh, is the Christ who is God over all, blessed forever. Amen.

International Standard Version (©2008)
To the Israelites belong the patriarchs, and from them, the Messiah descended, who is God over all, the one who is forever blessed. Amen.

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The Messiah is descended from their ancestors according to his human nature. The Messiah is God over everything, forever blessed. Amen.

Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
And the Patriarchs; and from them The Messiah appeared in the flesh, who is The God Who is over all, to Whom are praises and blessings to the eternity of eternities, amen.

American Standard Version
whose are the fathers, and of whom is Christ as concerning the flesh, who is over all, God blessed for ever. Amen.

After am done showing scriptures from the bible the deity of Christ, I will proceed to that of the Holy Spirit as God. Meanwhile, this question is also @ Frosbel and Ijawkid,

Since you both believe the Holy Spirit is a force and not distinct from God's spirit, Frosbel had said God is Spirit according to John 4:24......HOW IS IT POSSIBLE FOR SPIRIT TO HAVE SPIRIT.....if the Holy Spirit is just God's spirit and not distinct from God Can a Spirit have spirit .......FROSBEL, I NEED YOU TO ANSWER THIS QUESTION.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Lol, This post is interesting. Frosbel, would you mind my opening a thread so you can tell us exactly who Jesus is?[/quote]Exactly and something similar I intend doing with Frosbel.....am getting sick on his attack on the deity of Christ. Let's open another thread for debate and let's fix a date/time. Frosbel in trouble.....lolz

Ihedinobi: Beloved bro, one small correction: The Father, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are all I AM, that is, Yahweh. Doesn't mean that they're the same person. The Name speaks of Absolute or Ultimate, that is final, unchanging, Reality. That is what God is.

Okay bro. Yours noted. I will explore it. Thanks bro for the good fight of faith.

Ihedinobi: In other words, you cannot prove from 2 Peter 1:1 that it wasn't Jesus Peter was refering to as God, right?

NLT translation which is one of Frosble's favourite translations proves it better.......@ Frosbel, who is Peter refering to as God in II Peter 2:1, NLT

frosbel: Because he is not GOD or YAHWEH.

indeed JESUS is not GOD

There is no bible student that will ever say Jesus is Yahweh, Okay. That is very clear from the scripture, Jesus is NOT the Father.

frosbel: The deity of Christ is not the hope of our belief , the hope of our belief is in the messiaship of Christ. In other words our hope is that GOD sent his only SON into the world that whoever believes in HIM will not perish but have everlasting life.

There is nowhere in my bible where it is mentioned that a condition for salvation is that we believe that Jesus is GOD , nowhere.

When Jesus asked Peter, who do you say that I am, what was Peter's response ?

" Jesus and his disciples went on to the villages around Caesarea Philippi. On the way he asked them, "Who do people say I am?" They replied, "Some say John the Baptist; others say Elijah; and still others, one of the prophets." "But what about you?" he asked. "Who do you say I am?" Peter answered, "You are the Christ. " Jesus warned them not to tell anyone about him." - Mark 8:27-30

OR what was Nathaniel's confession about JESUS ?

"Then Nathanael declared, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God; you are the King of Israel."

In deed you seems not to know that hope of our faith. This is the hope of our faith,

New International Version (©1984)
Through him you believe in God, who raised him from the dead and glorified him, and so your faith and hope are in God.
1 Peter 1:21

New Living Translation (©2007)
Through Christ you have come to trust in God. And you have placed your faith and hope in God because he raised Christ from the dead and gave him great glory.

frosbel: In all cases the confession was that JESUS was the Son of GOD or Messiah or Christ , they never called him GOD.

I do not intend to go into the debate with you here since you have not said anything concerning the rules I intend for a debate between you and I. You above statement failed because the Apostles recognized Christ as God,

New International Version (©1984)
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours:

New Living Translation (©2007)
This letter is from Simon Peter, a slave and apostle of Jesus Christ. I am writing to you who share the same precious faith we have. This faith was given to you because of the justice and fairness of Jesus Christ, our God and Savior.

II Peter 1:1

What do you have to say about the above verse? That is a scripture right there from your favourite translations - NIV and NLT.