₦airaland Forum

frosbel: what do you know about maths, olodo !

so 1+1+1 = 1 , no ?

or is it now 1 X 1 x 1 = 1 , lol !!

People who don't know how to handle you will keep going in circle with you. Again, I ask this eternal question as I call the eternal witness from scripture to bear witness against you,

New International Version (©1984)
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

Here the Father calls the Son, Jesus Christ God.

The second witness is called against you in the courtroom,

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17

Here the Son called The Father another. The Father didn't say the Son is god as it denotes a lower case "g" but God. The Father says the Son is God.

Now @ Frosbel, Can you say to the whole WORLD that the Son as called by Father in Hebrews 1:8 is NOT God

frosbel: absolute gibberish !!!!

Frosbel, stop attacking Ihedinobi and START addressing "issue/topic" please. It doesn't make sense to you doesn't make it unbiblical. You have even said Jesus is NOT God amounting to denying the deity of the Son. I have called you to a debate where and how the Father (God) calls the Son, Jesus Christ God but you are closing your eyes to the truth. Leave personality out of this topic and let's treat topic. Kindly go and answer my questions on the other thread. Thank you.

truthislight: hahaha.
Lol.
An't you a funny guy?
Lol

Me and you funny together naw.....no be so Anyway, am waiting for you to answer the question put to you, Ijawkid and Frosbel up there. Thank you.

Laughing in tongues.......OR tongues too is unbiblical

Goshen360: Bros, when and how did I answer kweshion wif kweshion I have simply stated what the bible says and this is what I intend to defend. If we can PROVE the Father is God from the bible, Jesus God and the Holy Spirit God, then you will understand better at the end. The question of "How this, how that" will then be answered. You are not the first person that God will defile his/her logic - Mary had once asked, How can this be since I don't know a man? However, I will enter logic and scriptural debate with you when we start to prove the bible wrong. Again,

Does the Bible teach/says and calls the Father God?
Does the Bible teach/says and calls Jesus Christ God?
Does the Bible teach/says and calls the Holy Spirit God?

ijawkid: Jesus was begotten...
Does that word mean anything to you??

Jesus is the image of the invincible GOD(of which Jesus is not that GOD)....

Any one who is the image of Yahweh is a creation of Yahweh....the same with you and me and adam and all humans that are the image of God(Yahweh)

I know it might sound hard for you to gulp but these are truths that the trinity dogma has made many not accept even when the scripture says so......

No beef brother. You and I are cool even when we disagree. Okay. Let me shed most assignment at hand. We will enter a debate and start a thread in coming week. Let's leave this thread to be focus on his discourse, okay. Thank you.

ijawkid: 1 corinthians 8:5,6 confirms that there are many who are called Gods........

Jesus was called God.....

But to ""US"" there is but one GOD the Father whom Jesus worshipped.....

Hope we are on the same page??

Your colleagues here won't agree that Yahweh is greater than Jesus and that Yahweh is the God of Jesus.....

Abeg help me orient them....

My brother, leave matter for Mattias abeg. If you say Jesus worshiped the Father is NO point as (1), Jesus himself was worshiped and (2), the witness I called to the court room clearly says the Father called Jesus God. So as the Father was worshiped, Jesus was also worshiped.

The question is,

Goshen360: @ Ijawkid, Frosbel and Truthislight,

Do you agree (or believe) that Jesus is God. By "Jesus is God", I meant Jesus NOT the Father but still God according to the scriptures. I will like each of you (Ijawkid, Frosbel and Truthislight) to answer same question personally on your separate response. Thank you.

Just answer the simple question in your own personal way and allow others to whom my question is directed to also answer theirs.

Plus: By using "G" in the upper case, we believe it is True divine God unlike to lower the case of "g" as in god or gods as false god(s). Let's leave the play on words please.

This thread, simply put is to address who Jesus is. Is he just an ordinary man or is he God or is he God that became man and hence makes him both God and man? Let me begin by calling witnesses to the court room.

Here are the witnesses in/from the scriptures:

The Father. By the Father, I meant God the Father. The Father himself calls Jesus who is the Son God and it witnessed from Hebrews 1:8,

New International Version (©1984)
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom.


Okay. The Father who is God calls the Son God right. This is the first witness. To do justice, the Son also calls the Father God. and says the Father is greater than him. Let's hear from the witness of the Son,

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet returned to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them, 'I am returning to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'" John 20:17.

Okay. The Father calls the Son God and the Son calls the Father God or "my God". Does that mean the son is NO God? Certain not! If we are fighting Trinity, let's be straight forward to fight Trinity and if we are attacking the deity of Christ as God, let simply do that. Now, in the face of these TWO witnesses (The Father himself and The Son), Can we say Jesus is God and the Father is also God?

@ Ijawkid, Frosbel and Truthislight,

Do you agree (or believe) that Jesus is God. By "Jesus is God", I meant Jesus NOT the Father but still God according to the scriptures. I will like each of you (Ijawkid, Frosbel and Truthislight) to answer same question personally on your separate response. Thank you.

ijawkid: No wahala.........

I ready.......

You haven't still actually told me how Jesus is your brother......

Food for thought bro....

truthislight: you made it sound as though it is a threat?

Meanwhile the scriptures are staring you in the face that Jesus is the first born of all "creation"

who should we listen to?
You or the bible?

See how you contradict the bible with out of context scripture!

Hebrews chapter 7 is talking about the priest hood of Jesus, that it is in the manner of melchizedek not from father to son(without father and mother) and as such a direct appointment from God.

The reference of ETERNAL in this hebrews 7 is in reference to christ priest hood, how can you childishly attempt using it for trinity when we are not talking About priest Hood?

The maturity of reasoning of some of those in this forum is amazing.

If the bible contradict itself dont you think we should leave it?

*sigh*

TroGunn: I'm only just pointing out the lack of coherence in the pagan-derived Trinity teaching. I don't believe it because it doesn't make sense.

You guys think it's because I believe in the Trinity teaching that is why I made such statement? You hatred for Trinity teaching is making you accuse someone wrongly. The next step we will go into is a debate of "Jesus being created by God" which is the basis of what I attacked and made my statement. In order not to get involved in two many things at a time, I will start a thread and invite you all to the debate if Jesus was created or exist eternally with the Father since you guys are probably not getting the point am addressing.

Okay, I don wake up healthy and sound. I will resume and nail this discourse today and right now.

ijawkid: Hmmmmm..

I thought you yourself made a write up about melchizedek??

I know what you are saying.....quote me and let's debate it. Am ready interested in this your Jesus was created stuff. By the time we finish when I come online, you will be flat on the floor with all your theology punctured..... . I got load of scriptures for you but am a bit strong due to the cold. Hewever, I will respond to you when I wake up. In fact, I will love to engage a debate with you on "Jesus was created or exist eternally" on a new thread if you don't mind, so I can openly expose you.

[quote author=Mr_Anony]Frosbel you have still not answered my question as you promised.

Is Jesus Chist the Word or was Jesus Christ created by the Word?


Here's a refresher of my oiginal argument:


[size=14pt]@Everyone else. Please let us not get carried away. This thread was never meant to be a Trinity thread, there are so many on Nairaland to choose from. The focus here is Who is Jesus Christ? Please Stick to the point.
And also the rules are in the OP plus we will only respect NIV and RSV translations here. I beg you all, don't muddle up the thread.[/size][/quote]I have tried to obey the rules.......using Frosbel's own very NIV to debunk him and he had since run away . My simple argument also is to show that Jesus is called God all over the scriptures. However, NOT the Father. Since he is called God, why will Frosbel keep teaching and saying He is mere man and NOT God Jesus Christ is the God that manifested or appeared in the flesh or body, I Timothy 3:16.

TroGunn: John 2:19 proves nothing. It's another case of Trinitarians clutching at straws in trying to twist the Bible to support their man-made Creed by using a few scriptures that can be understood in more than one way.

Did Jesus statement mean he'll raise himself up? Not necessarily. Galatians 1:1 and many other scriptures clearly shows the Father raised Jesus from the dead - "Paul, an apostle, (not of men, neither by man, but by Jesus Christ, and God the Father, who raised him from the dead )".

Jesus' statement only showed his conviction that if he stayed the course and does not sin, God will be loyal and raise him up. Jesus had a vital part to play in his ressurection - he had to be faithful and stay sinless, and if he did his Father would surely keep his long foretold promise to raise him up.

A similar case is when Jesus said to a sick woman, who touched his garment: “Your faith has made you well.” Did she heal herself? No; it was power from God through Christ that healed her because she had faith. - Luke 8:46; Acts 10:38.

Another case is found at Ezekiel 43:3, where Ezekiel says "even according to the vision that I saw when I came to destroy the city”. But Ezekiel did not go to destroy Jerusalem; he only predicted the destruction of the city by the Babylonians. Yet he spoke of himself as doing it, because he was convinced it will happen, being as he was prophesying God's message. So Jesus could speak as though he was going to raise himself, yet actually he would be resurrected by God the Father.

Christians today who are determined to be faithful like Christ can speak with samilar conviction and be certain of the outcome - "And if the Spirit of the one who raised Jesus from the dead is living in you, then the one who raised the Messiah from the dead will also make your mortal bodies alive by his Spirit who lives in you". (Rom. 8:11)

Firstborn is firstborn. Just as Christ is "the faithful and true witness, the beginning of the creation of God" - Rev 3:14. Christ has a beginning, God doesn't.

It's easier to believe the simple message in the Bible that tallies with the overall theme of the rest of the Bible than the convoluted man-made Creed you are so determined to stick to, and hope you can find support by twisting a few verses.

Shall we then say scripture contradict itself If Rev 3:14 is meant to be/say that Christ had a beginning, how then do we interpret Hebrews 7:3

New International Version (©1984)
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

ednut1: how come asian, black,white, hispanic came from adam and eve o, or before islam or xtainity came we seem nt to knw adam is our ancestor not oduduwa, amadioha, am confused o hehehehehehehehe

How did dwarf came about How did short/talk people came about How this, how that ......It's called the Seed of God in His Creatures without God having to create all the time (...And God said,...whose seed is in itself, upon the earth: and it was so. Genesis 1:11) for God had ceased from creation of heaven and earth on the seventh day but continues creation in His new creation for if ANY man be in Christ, he is a NEW creation. Genesis 1:11 is also revealed in I Corinthians 15:38, Kjv

But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.

ijawkid: The 1st born in psalms 89: 27 u quoted is it as regards kingship and government or as regards creation??

I'ma tell you this....

In all the. 30 times"" first born of"" was used in the bible and associated with or applied to living creatures the same meaning applies.::::in that the 1st born is part of the group....

""The 1st born of isreal"" is one of the sons of isreal...

""The 1st born of pharoah"" is one of pharoahs family...

Etc.......

My problem is how would this expression ""1st born of"" change its meaning when Jesus is called ""1st born of all creation""??

Another vital question for you to squash your stance on the fact that Jesus wasn't created by Yahweh(His God and Father),is :::::

Why is Jesus called the ""first born"". From the dead??

Did Jesus evade death and ressurection to attain that title??....

If Jesus wasn't ressurected by his Father how on earth can Jesus be called the ""1st born"" from the dead??

If Jesus wasn't created by his Father and God how on earth can that title ""1st born of all creation"" be attached to Him??

Jesus died and was ressurected...he was part of the family of persons who died or who will die and be ressurected by Yahweh.....but Jesus being the 1st to have experienced ressurection from Yahweh becomes the"" 1st born "" from the dead..

How on earth would you guys twist 1st born in colossians 1:15??

Goshen read psalms 89:27 again and tell me if that verse is talking about creation or kingship.......


It surprises me that you escaped from all the other places ""1st born "" was used in the bible including colossians 1:18 and stuck to psalms that was reffering to rulership and kingship.....


Even the governemnts and ruler ship power that Jesus has now,the Father gave it to him and Jesus ofcus would even return it back.....

Make no mistake my freind...

YAhweh created Jesus.....Yahweh is the cause of Jesus's existence....

I have asked you before :::::

Why do you think Jesus isn't afraid to call ""us"" brothers??

Why??

Read hebrews 2:11...

New Living Translation (©2007)
So now Jesus and the ones he makes holy have
the same Father. That is why Jesus is not
ashamed to call them his brothers and sisters.
....

We all stem from the same source...and who is that source my brother??

Is the 1 source not Yahweh??

And let me tell u this.....

The same way Yahweh created Jesus as the 1st of his works and made Jesus the agent through which all other things were created,so also after Yahweh ressurected Jesus,Jesus now became the agent through which all other faithfuls would be ressurected........

There is no running from this salient points...

For the fact that the God of Jesus is also our God should alone tell you that Jesus had a beginning just like US......

I will NOT continue running in circle with you brother. Since you accept Jesus is called God, you don't have issue with me. Like I said, Jesus is NOT the Father and the Father is greater than Jesus even as Jesus said it. This is bible truth. Our exercise is simply to prove Jesus is God. I am tired for today. I gtg.

frosbel: GOSHEN, Jesus is the SON OF GOD not YAHWEH , stop running blind , it's becoming embarrassing.


Let us see how you and your Trinitarian counterparts will murder the English Language to twist these scriptures below



Matthew 4:10: "Jesus said to him,'Away from me, Satan! For it is written: "Worship the Lord your God, and serve him only."'"


John 17:3: "Now this is eternal life: that they may know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom you have sent."


1Corinthians 8:5-6: "For even if there are so-called gods, whether in heaven or on earth (as indeed there are many "gods" and many "lords" ), yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live."


1Timothy 2:5: "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus"


James 2:19: "You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that—and shudder."


Mark 13:32:"No one knows about that day or hour, not even the angels in heaven, nor the Son, but only the Father."


John 5:19: "Jesus gave them this answer: "I tell you the truth, the Son can do nothing by himself; he can do only what he sees his Father doing, because whatever the Father does the Son also does."


John 14:28: "You heard me say,'I am going away and I am coming back to you.' If you loved me, you would be glad that I am going to the Father, for the Father is greater than I."


John 17:20-23: "My prayer is not for them alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, that all of them may be one, Father, just as you are in me and I am in you. May they also be in us so that the world may believe that you have sent me. I have given them the glory that you gave me, that they may be one as we are one: I in them and you in me. May they be brought to complete unity [/b]to let the world know that[b] you sent me and have loved them even as you have loved me."


John 20:17: "Jesus said, "Do not hold on to me, for I have not yet ascended to the Father. Go instead to my brothers and tell them,'I am ascending to my Father and your Father, to my God and your God.'"


Acts 7:55-56: "But he (Stephen), being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God, and said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God."


Colossians 1:15: "He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation."


1Corinthians 15:24-28 : "Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power. For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death. For he "has put everything under his feet." Now when it says that "everything" has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ. When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all."


The Debate is over for me, not worth my time arguing with people who want to throw away 90% of the bible so as to support their PAGAN doctrine.


[size=20pt]Carry on without me.[/size]

Carry one without YOU What! Don't tell me you want to run away o. Even if you run, I will catch you on another thread you hear me so. What we are proving here is the Fact and Truth that SCRIPTURE CALLS JESUS is GOD. Is that too hard for you to understand Quotes from your very own NIV

New International Version (©1984)
No one has ever seen God, but God the One and Only, who is at the Father's side, has made him known. John 1:18

New International Version (©1984)
Thomas said to him, "My Lord and my God!" John 20:28

New International Version (©1984)
Theirs are the patriarchs, and from them is traced the human ancestry of Christ, who is God over all, forever praised! Amen. Romans 9:5

New International Version (©1984)
while we wait for the blessed hope--the glorious appearing of our great God and Savior, Jesus Christ, Titus 2:13

New International Version (©1984)
But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom. Hebrews 1:8

New International Version (©1984)
Simon Peter, a servant and apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who through the righteousness of our God and Savior Jesus Christ have received a faith as precious as ours: II Peter 1:1

Make I stop for NT alone. The fact and truth we are proving is that many scriptures refers to Jesus as God BUT Frosbel says, No, He isn't God. What if we begin to call him the Lamb of Gob? Does that mean he has four legs? Frosbel, you have to understand that the "son of God" as Jesus is by BECOMING which he became according to John 1:14. He isn't originally "son of God" but he "became" when he put upon human nature. Even in his human nature, scriptures still refer to him as God. Hence he is God that became man.

New International Version (©1984)
Beyond all question, the mystery of godliness is great: He appeared in a body, was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory. I Timothy 3:16.

Who is the "He" that appeared in a body? was vindicated by the Spirit, was seen by angels, was preached among the nations, was believed on in the world, was taken up in glory Definitely not the Father BUT the Son - His name is Jesus Christ, The Everlasting Father, The Mighty God, The God our Saviour, The beginning and the ending, The God with us, The God who was with the Father and was God. Glory to God!

ijawkid: He is the 1st born of all creation and also an image of God.....

All those are image of Yahweh are creations of Yahweh....

English Standard Version (©2001)
He is the image of the invisible God, the
firstborn of all creation.


What do you understand from the word ""1st born of all creation""

Lets analyze that word......1st born.....

Who is a 1st born??

Remember Jesus is the 1st born in so many ways....

This is how heresy begins with us. I told you guys I will puncture ALL your heresies. You just erred in this scriptures. Now, sit relax and learn the truth if you want to. I know this heresy exist in the JW's sect where they teach Jesus was created. The term "firstborn of all creation" is a prophetic title Apostle Paul revealed from Psalms Ps. 89:27, “I will make him the firstborn, the highest of the kings of the earth”. The title firstborn does not mean that Jesus was created (v. 16), but indicates His priority of rank as supreme over all the creation NOT CreatURES. What creation? He NEW CREATION, NOT CREATURE(S). Let's pull Colossians 1:15-16 again,

New International Version (©1984)
15. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him.

Now if He was BEFORE ALL Things and created ALL things, how is he created. If your interpretation is that Christ was created, it then contradict John 1:1-2 and it will also mean him being called “the firstborn from the dead” (Colossians 1:18) also mean he was re-born after being first born or created. If you also interpret that Christ was created, then you will also contradict Acts 13:33,

New International Version (©1984)
he has fulfilled for us, their children, by raising up Jesus. As it is written in the second Psalm: "'You are my Son; today I have become your Father.

The KJV says, "This day, I have begotten you....". It will therefore mean that AFTER Jesus was created and is the firstborn as you supposed, he was then begotten again according to Acts 13:33. Your statement will also contradict Hebrews 7:3

New International Version (©1984)
Without father or mother, without genealogy, without beginning of days or end of life, like the Son of God he remains a priest forever.

It would be wrong to think in physical terms here, as if Paul were asserting that the Son had a physical origin or was somehow created. This is called the classic Arian heresy rather than existing eternally as the Son, with the Father (John 1:1-2) What Paul had is saying is the rights and privileges of a firstborn son in which we believers are the new creation which Christ is the firstborn, especially the son of God as those who are redeemed to the Father by the blood of the Son who would inherit ruling sovereignty. This is how the expression is used of David in the Psalms.

Pastor Kun: Just as I thought the problem is with your definition of the word deity. You define deity as the supreme God where as in reality deity is simply a supernatural being. Even angels are referred
To as divine beings. The deity of christ is not in doubt but he is not God the father aka the almighty God. He is God's son as the bible makes it crystal clear. By being the son of GOD also makes him a God but then he is clearly not in the same league as his father who he derives his power from and remains subject to.

You guys are going round in circle......Is Jesus called Mighty God or NOT? If Yes, then who is Frosbel to say he is NOT God. Of course Jesus said, The Father is greater than him and the head of Christ is God. This doesn't take away the fact of him being God. That Father is greater than him as it relates to office and works. When people like Frosbel make statement such as Jesus is NOT God and when people like Ijawkid says he was created, then we need to read HOW AND WHEN he was created.

truthislight: you seem to be biting more than what you can chew at a time.

Am not oblige to add to the situation you have put yourself already.

It should rather be you against Jesus words that said he "came from heaven and will go back to where he was befor"
John 6:62

face this debate,

Note:

this debate is not about three Gods or trinity but to proof if Jesus had existed as a real spirit person befor coming to earth.

As it is looking already some are desperately trying to mixe things up and calling on trinity.
We should focus on the theme of the thread.

@Enigma. So far, you are the only person that is honestly addressing the thread"

i will not be a party to a dishonest approach of turning this thread to a trinity issue.

We should stick to the thread theme,

it is important to exterblish this fact "if Jesus Pre-existed or not" and not muddled things up.

Thank you. On the bolded. They are trying to turn the table....We are actually debate the deity of Christ here, not Trinity. I also intend to debate the deity of the Holy Spirit as well. He is also a being, NOT a wind or a force.

ijawkid: Goshen see the definitions of deity...

de·i·ty
[dee-i-tee]

-n.,
1. a god or goddess.
2. divine character or nature, esp. that of the Supreme Being; divinity.
3. the estate or rank of a god: The king attained deity after his death.
4. a person or thing revered as a god or goddess: a society in which money is the only deity.
5. God; Supreme Being.


In terms of omiscience and omnipotence hope you know Jesus isn't either of them.....

I know you know.....

Only The Father is all powerful and all-knowing.....

You agree??

Get Bible dictionary to define deity please. Of course we know there are false deity and True deity - The living God.

ijawkid: When Jesus in that isaiah is called everlasting Father you should know what it means........

It sure means Jesus is the last adam.....what adam should have become if he hadn't disobeyed Yahweh is what Jesus is now.....

Adam should have been our everlasting Father,but since he couldn't,Jesus who is the greater adam is now.....

Besides you should also know Jesus has a Father who is God over Him and over all........

So don't misunderstand the expression ""everlasting Father"" mentioned there in isaiah to be that Jesus never had a beginning...

[size=20pt]Yahweh created Jesus...Jesus is the 1st of Yahwehs creative works and then Jesus became the agent through which Yahweh created all other things....[/size]

That's why we are brothers with Jesus....we all originated from 1 source...

And who is that??

YAHWEH the Father and God of all....

Do you mind to show us WHERE and HOW Jesus was created. I/We will love to read such scriptures please.

Pastor Kun: I am really looking forward to how you would puncture all of frosbel's statements without twisting scripture adding to or removing from it.

Also you keep on going about non trinitarians denying the deity of christ. I am yet to read any statement denying Jesus divinity.

Can't you read all over the thread Frosbel saying Jesus isn't God

Pastor Kun: I am really looking forward to how you would puncture all of frosbel's statements without twisting scripture adding to or removing from it.

You know am biblically to twist scriptures. Show me the scriptures I have twisted and you can as well help us as the world is reading to better understand any scripture I used to refute Frosbel if am actually twisting scriptures.

Pastor Kun: what is your understanding of the term 'deity'?

Deity You can think of Eternal being. You can think and talk of one who all-knowing (omniscient). You can talk one the being who is all-powerful (omnipotent). Talk of the one who is has eternal existence. Talk of the one who is the is the Creator. Talk of the one who is Worshiped as the Living God, not as crafted image. Do you want more

frosbel: But let us for argument sake assume that this BEING was with GOD from the beginning, please help me with the following questions :

1. If this being was GOD and he died, does this not contradict God's immortality

Good you asked "Does this not contradict God's immortality?". Now you sounds like some who wants to learn and increase in knowledge. Since He was the Word that BECAME human and NOT the Father nor the Holy Spirit. He had to died to redeem mankind to the Father. He died NOT by natural or normal death but by sacrificial death in which He laid down his life by himself. Listen to his words,

New International Version (©1984)
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down and authority to take it up again. This command I received from my Father." John 10:18

New International Version (©1984)
For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son to have life in himself. John 5:26

So you see, He laid down the life by himself. The Father didn't die neither did the Holy Spirit because neither the Father nor the Holy Spirit BECAME flesh like Jesus BECAME flesh (human) according to John 1:14. The case of God (specifically the father) dying is no where to be found in scriptures. If it was the Father who BECAME flesh, then He would have also laid down his life and take it up again.

New International Version (©1984)
Jesus answered them, "Destroy this temple, and I will raise it again in three days." John 2:19

ijawkid: Yahweh is the ALPHA and OMEGA.......

U doubt??

and all things were created through Jesus....

Yahweh ofcus is not under the (all) things
......

I'll reiterate::::: [size=20pt]Yahweh created Jesus while Jesus was used as Yahwehs agent to create all other things...[/size]

Got it??

Yahweh CREATED Christ So Yahweh could not just create all thing unless Yahweh had to first create Jesus Christ. You will need this scriptures to explain Jesus being created......"Isaiah 9:6-"For unto us a child is born,...and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father...." Mighty God created Everlasting created

frosbel: You are quite confused.

By the time we finish expounding on scriptures, we will see who is confuse, confuser and confusest........lolz

frosbel: The WORD was with GOD from the beginning [size=20pt]not a being.[/size]

Did I just read you say the "W"ord is NOT a being Let's put your statement under scriptural lens and microscope and see if it answers to the truth. There is NO way someone like you will deny the deity of Christ and don't end up making some heretic statements such as the above.

New International Version (©1984)
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. John 1:1

Here we have:

The Word = God (....and the Word was God.)

The Word was with God (....meaning there is the Word and there is God with whom the Word was with)

New International Version (©1984)
He was with God in the beginning. John 1:2

Verse 2 make the phrase "and the Word was with God" clearer in a better understanding and proceed to identified the Word as a being by using a pronoun "He". You just said the Word is NOT a being. What then is the "Word" if NOT a being and identified as "He" Is the Word a wind Let me remind you, there are three level of word as described in the bible - The Spoken word, The written word and the Living Word. If the Word is NOT a being how come your NIV says "He" was BEFORE ALL things in Colossians 1:17,

17 He is [b]before all things[/b], and in him all things hold together.

What could be called "He" if such is NOT a being

New International Version (©1984)
Through him all things were made; without him nothing was made that has been made. John 1:3. If "He" is NOT a being, will you mind to tell us who "He" is

frosbel: You are quite confused.

The WORD was with GOD from the beginning not a being.

But let us for argument sake assume that this BEING was with GOD from the beginning, please help me with the following questions :

1. If this being was GOD and he died, does this not contradict God's immortality

2. iF this being was GOD and he was tempted , does this not contradict the word of God which says GOD cannot be tempted.

"When tempted, no one should say, "God is tempting me." For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone "- James 1:13

3. Why did the fallen angels refer to Jesus as Son of GOD and not GOD , surely the bible says the demons believe there is one GOD and tremble, if this was GOD they would have said so, no ?

You say you have faith, for you believe that there is one God. Good for you! Even the demons believe this, and they tremble in terror - James 2:19

4. Why did GOD or should we say Jesus say the Father was greater than HIM

5. Are you also willingly to consider the following verses in John 1 :

v14 - And the Word became flesh and dwelt among us, full of grace and truth; we have beheld his glory, glory as of the only Son from the Father.
v18 - No one has ever seen God; the only Son, who is in the bosom of the Father, he has made him known.
v20 - He confessed, he did not deny, but confessed, "I am not the Christ."
v25 - They asked him, "Then why are you baptizing, if you are neither the Christ, nor Elijah, nor the prophet?"
v34 - And I have seen and have borne witness that this is the Son of God."
v41 - He first found his brother Simon, and said to him, "We have found the Messiah" (which means Christ).
v45 - Philip found Nathan'a-el, and said to him, "We have found him of whom Moses in the law and also the prophets wrote, Jesus of Nazareth, the son of Joseph."
v49 - Nathan'a-el answered him, "Rabbi, you are the Son of God! You are the King of Israel!"
v50 - Jesus answered him, "Because I said to you, I saw you under the fig tree, do you believe? You shall see greater things than these."



I have enumerated a few verses in the same chapter just to make a small point.

John referred to Jesus as the Lamb of GOD and the Son of GOD
Jesus referred to himself as the Son of MAN
Peter referred to Jesus as the Messiah
Nathaniel referred to Jesus as the Son of GOD



Are you guys really this blind, not to understand the implications of all these statements, or should we throw them all away to support your Pagan trinity of 3 gods ?




God is ONE PERSON , good.

Even an elementary school pupil knows what singular pronouns are and what they stand for , no ?

To therefore derive a 3-person personality from this ONE is plain foolishness and the epitome of confusion.





I hate the catholic institution NOT the catholic people, 1/2 of my family are catholic - thank you again for your misrepresentation of facts !




You do not know what you are talking about.

Let 'US' cannot be used as evidence to prove that this was JESUS and even if it was , where was the Holy Spirit , I thought you said they are three ?

How you can presumptuously suggest that 'US' means three , is even more bewildering that 1+1+1 = 1


Also , have you forgotten v27 which goes :

"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. " - Genesis 1:27

Surely you are not attempting to erroneously say that the singular pronouns in this passages mean a plurality ?



Elohim also refers to angels, I hope you know that , do your homework MAN.

Your quotation of Acts 4:24 is REDUNDANT , as this verse clearly says that GOD , ONE GOD , made everything.

When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, " you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them - Acts 4:24



This is the actual quotation :

15 The Son is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. 16 For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him. 17 He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Do you jump to conclusions or do you meditate on these passages ?

- The SON is the image of GOD , not GOD
- FirstBORN denotes beginning
- All things were created through HIM brings us back to John 1 , the WORD of GOD

You are running on flat tires my friend and your point is that you have no point.


GOD is ONE.


Listen to what your GOD Jesus said :

Jesus replied, "The most important commandment is this: 'Listen, O Israel! The LORD our God is the one and only LORD - Mark 12:29


Trinitarians have no shame and surely no problems lying and misrepresenting Jesus.

Jesus says God is ONE, Trinitarians say NO Jesus , he is 3 and you are part of this 3

SMH

First, I needed to quote ALL your post as a whole in order to preserve your statement. I will thereafter begin puncturing all your statement one after the other with scriptures.

frosbel: Jesus was a Human Being with a divine beginning through the seed planted in the womb of Mary by the Spirit of GOD.

Frosbel, how do you reconcile your statements above and your statement below?

frosbel: Let me quote John 1 v14.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us. We have seen his glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Christ is the personification of GOD's WORD

Only God has been eternal without beginning, Jesus Christ had a beginning.

"And again, when God brings his firstborn into the world, he says, "Let all God's angels worship him." - Hebrew 1:6

Scripture makes it clear that Jesus became God's Son through begettal through the Holy Spirit power of the Father overshadowing Mary, causing her to "conceive."

If someone according to John 1:1-2 was called Word and also called God and still under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit says "He" was with God in the beginning being called God in verse one. How then does such have beginning All your heretic thread to deny the deity of Christ will all be punctured by your own statements. Here again you said,

frosbel: [size=15pt]No one has ever disputed his divinity[/size] , appears you guys have some misunderstanding.

[size=15pt]BUT[/size] on this thread, you said:

frosbel: WRONG !!

[size=20pt]Christ is NOT GOD[/size] my Catholic Pal.

frosbel: Divinity comes from GOD and through his Spirit , all born again believers share in this divine nature if they are born again and they become ONE with Christ and GOD which btw does not make them GOD.

Believers share in divine nature by ADOPTION, SPIRITUAL and CALLING NOT by our natural or earthly birth. Jesus is GOD John 1:1 who BECAME flesh or human in order to redeem mankind back to God and to eternal life. When someone BECOMES, it therefore means such person is NOT originally what he/she became. An armed rober who BECAME an armed robber wasn't ORIGINALLY born an armed robber. I will unveil to you what happens when Christ as God (John 1:1) BECAME flesh (human) from John 1:14 and as such BECAME "Son of God" which the Apostles beheld his glory. Does Christ "BECOMING" in John 1:14 deny his deity as God in John 1:1 Certainly NOT. What then does it mean for God to BECOME? Does it mean he has beginning? Does it mean he was created? Let me lay it there and will unveil later as I seriously want to puncture all your theology denying the deity of Christ as God.

"If anyone has any question about this, let him consult the thousands upon thousands of singular personal pronouns used for God in the Bible. "I," "Me," "Mine," "Myself," "Thee," "Thy," "Thine," "Thyself," "He," "Him," "His," "Himself." All these words, as well as God's proper name Yahweh followed by singular verbs (6700 times), ought to convince the open-minded that God is one Person, not more. And monotheism - belief that God is one - is, according to Jesus, of critical importance (Mark 12:29)"......culled from your article up there.

The bible is very consistent. You Frosbel are one not consistent and this is probably due to your hatred for the Catholic sect. With all evidence in scripture, when the plural words are mentioned the following verb is singular. What does that mean? ONE God cannot be refering to himself as "us" and then the following verb is singular. This mean what one does, it is taken as all did the verb. For instance,

Then God said, "Let us make man in our image, in our likeness,.....Genesis 1:26

AND the pronoun plus the verb following in verse 27 is singular......"So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them"

What does that teach and reveal to us How can God in creation refer to NUMERIC one as "us" and come back in verse 27 to refer to the "us" and "our" as "his" and "he". This teaches us that the being that is involved in creation is called God, Elohim in plural and creation is attributed to the Father as in Acts 4:24,

New International Version (©1984)
When they heard this, they raised their voices together in prayer to God. "Sovereign Lord," they said, "you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.

Creation is also attributed to Jesus Christ as in Colossians 1:15-17,

New International Version (©1984)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things were created by him and for him. He is before all things, and in him all things hold together.

Also, creation is attributed to the Holy Spirit. He is NOT a "force" or "wind" for a force CANNOT create ANYTHING.

New International Version (©1984)
When you send your Spirit, they are created, and you renew the face of the earth. Psalm 104:30

I want to call ALL Evidence against you Frosbel. Now back to Genesis 1:1 since you love to use "logic" to interpret scriptures but I will use logic and also use scriptures to explain scriptures to you. Now in Genesis and all through the scriptures, the word "God" is Elohim and it is plural but the following verb and/or pronoun is singular and we have identified THREE Eternal being DIRECTLY involved in creation, WHO THEN DO WE SAY ACTUALLY DID THE CREATION This is where we understand the singular verb and/or pronoun such as "he" or "him" or "his own" or "himself" and throughout the scriptures and also in Genesis 1:27 that it is unity of purpose. What three did in creation is considered as ONE doing same as God's act in creation while it is said that "in the beginning, GOD create..." for there is a scriptural and spiritual rules in two or three becoming ONE as said by Christ,

New International Version (©1984)
and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Mark 10:8.

frosbel: You seem not to understand this scripture , Jesus did have a mother, no ? and he also had a father , no ?

If yes to the above, then he had a beginning.

If no, you have denied scripture.

Anyway , like I said I want to do justice to this question at my own pace and in my own time , before the 'intellectually dishonest 'theologians ' try to twist my statements and or comments.

There is nobody that will twist your statements. It's written down in black and white by you and was quoted. You are the one that should defend the statement you just made and clarify yourself. Maybe by the time you are able to answer that question, you will come to understand and possibly revert your thread/statement that JESUS is just a MERE MAN or HUMAN BEING, as per the other thread you started.

frosbel: Is this the same word of GOD that you and your cohorts can still not use to prove that GOD = 3

They that KNOW their God shall be strong and do exploit. The same mission am on with you - to prove that Three Eternal being are called God in One True and Living God. Doesn't the bible teaches and call the Father God, Jesus Christ God and the Holy Spirit God? When you/we use the word "one", it's used referring to unity and also numeric just like the word "sheep".

New International Version (©1984)
I and the Father are one."

How do we explain or interpret TWO persons being ONE. An example of how the bible uses ONE as UNITY according to the above verse........The simple answer is UNITY and INDIVISIBLE. And yet, scripture calls each of these TWO God in other references. Aren't you and your wife TWO separate being? But scripture says both of you are ONE FLESH. This is even more confusing to a lazy bible student. It didn't just say they are ONE but they are ONE FLESH. Another example,

New International Version (©1984)
and the two will become one flesh.' So they are no longer two, but one. Mark 10:8. So here you see the scriptural and spiritual rules changes. The Lord even added the word "flesh". How can TWO be ONE FLESH? Get ready bro, am ready to puncture all your theology with scripture-to-scriptures-interpretation.

Again, an example of how scripture use the word "ONE" as it refers to number. Your popular bible quote is appropriate for me to use,

New International Version (©1984)
There is one body and one Spirit--just as you were called to one hope when you were called--one Lord, one faith, one baptism; one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all. Ephesians 4:4-6

Here we see how scripture use "ONE" as it relates to NUMERIC and yet, scripture calls the ONE Lord who we know as Jesus Christ God in other scriptural references, it also calls this ONE Father God and and the same ONE Spirit God in other references. How then do we put all of these together is what is called using scriptures-to-interpret-scriptures.

See Frosbel, I believe you are a good bible student BUT you have allowed your hatred for the Catholic sect to dominate your scripture interpretation in which hatred shouldn't be a virtue of a child of God in the first place. I will continue of that later.....let's stay on course.

frosbel: We ( Only ONE GOD Camp ) , have spent precious hours arguing and making our case from a unitarian standpoint, showing you dozens of scripture that debunk, nullify and totally rip apart the lie and fallacy called trinity , and you accuse us of dishonesty when you are yet to provide ONE , not TWO , just ONE scripture in the bible which depicts God as 3-persons.

Cherry picking and wrenching verses out of their intended context will , rather than bring you nearer to the truth, push you farther from it.

It is appalling and very deplorable when we call ourselves Christians and yet mislead others by believing in 3 gods and forcing them , mostly the innocent terrified sheelple , to abide by this mysterious confusion with the threat of eternal torment.

A 3 god god is polytheism and idolatry.

Moses did not think God was 3 and neither did Abraham or the prophets or the apostles and even Jesus.

Only catholic oriented trinitarians seem to stubbornly hold on to this myth !!

Moses was inspired to write the scriptures in part. NOW, we (believers) have the "parts" as a "whole". Hence, we have more revelation and more insight to scriptures. Jesus being God appeared to Moses, Abraham and the rest before he "became" human to redeem us from the curse of the law. Moses, Abraham didn't argue him as LORD that appear to them just like you are arguing God. Today, we can understand better because we now have the whole handed down to us as scripture.

truthislight: as much as i agree with your, i had thought that the knowing in part was as per the part knowledge that was given to different apostle that they have used to pened down in the individual scriptures that made up the bible.

But it becomes "whole" when all their writings are brought together.

For me, all i need to do is allow scripture to interpret and my work is done since the "whole" of the scriptures is here.
Peace.

On the bolded. I submit you are right. That's heavy! Good job bro.

frosbel: I am at work

Allow me respond later this evening.

Peace !

Okay. Me dey wait for you. By the way, that is first scripture refuting your "Jesus had a beginning and was created" theology. Still more to hit you in the evening according to how you respond.

brainpulse: I always constrain myself not to reply him, with his interpretation of the scriptures. Although he says he interpretes the scriptures logically not spiritually.

The word of God refutes and debunks Frosbel logically and using scriptures-to-explain scriptures. I'm in for him and with him, logically and scripturally.

frosbel: Okay , I promise to respond late this evening.

Trust me I am not like those dodgers who refuse to answer questions, and I do not mean you

BTW, did you manage to read those small pdf books I sent you.

No shaking sir even if you meant me inclusive. I take that as a simile, not a metaphor . I haven't read the PDF document anyway but I will try read it immediately if ONLY it's NOT attacking Jesus as God and the Holy Spirit as God......