₦airaland Forum

lol, I gave you example of a lot sold in 1981...

We are on the primary source, christies.com, and it said that the item was only executed in 1981 which is before the website came online, and was only closed in 2012 after the website came online. Now that we know how auction dates work, it is only logical that we saw it there with the respective statuses of the item clearly indicated. This leaves your evidence flawed. You could have been convincing if you showed an item executed and closed prior to 1996 which is now listed on christies.com?

smokinloud:
The close date does not mean the date the lot was executed on Christies home of auction. Example is Cindy Sherman's work sold in 1981 on Christie. The executed date is correctly written as 1981 but the close date is 2012. The close date is not talking about the date of auction.

Na wa for liar life o

Sale means entire transaction having completed with the buyer having paid and the seller having delivered good or service.. Yes, It was bidded for in 1981, when christies had no website. But it was not paid for or fully paid for. So christies still had possession of the items or some of them. When they came online in 1996 and onwards, they listed them with their current statuses. Once any of them is paid for, it gets closed and its status is updated. So what was closed (fully paid for) prior to the website has no way of getting in on their website and therefore would not be listed. Again you lied!

Brb... on the other items, kind of busy rn but chew on this first.

smokinloud:
I made a little research and I found out that Kuffa wasn't established during the time of Muhammed...

But the holy Propeht Muhammad (s.a.w.) gave the order to establish it. That's why it was already developed before Caliph Uthman began his reign. And Caliph Ali who succeeded Caliph Uthman actually moved the entire caliphate to Kufa and governed from there. Like moving the Presidency from Lagos to Abuja, remember. The reign of Caliph Ali ended in 661 CE. That should give you an idea of how mature the city of Kufa was already at that time.

smokinloud:
The Kufic script's full development postdates Uthman, making it impossible for the Tashkent manuscript to be from his time...

The Kufic script is a 7th century script. I don't know why you want to distant it far away from that period into the later centuries. That's not being sincere.

smokinloud:
I showed you EA Rezvan's work itself. You're showing me secondary sources of his work. you're not debating a kid awe.

Do you have a personal link to EA Rezvan's work? Or did he submit his thesis to you only? EA Rezvan's work is openly available here:
https://www.kunstkamera.ru/files/lib/978-5-88431-178-7/978-5-88431-178-7_12.pdf
And I have been quoting from same url showing clearly in the attached images and where he referenced Christies. See Pic.

smokinloud:
🤣😂 The sources you've been quoting says Christie bought it in 1992 which is still internet era.

But christies.com did not exist in 1992. Their online presence started in 1996 which is why I showed you their internet archive that marked the beginning of their internet era. Stop trying to be mischievious because we have a context already. So their auctions prior that time were catalogued in books. And the book that contained the auctioning of the Tashkent manuscript has also been shown to you and that book is being widely sold today and being quoted and referenced from, in academic works and others.

smokinloud:
🤣😂 ...As a matter of fact, a lot of things bought and sold before then are listed on the website like the Richard Lin art in 1960...

You lied here and you know it, may be hoping to not get caught: You did not show the closed date for the auction. See pic1.

The closed date is 25 May 2021.

This reinforces the assertion that only items listed and sold during the internet era of Christies can be found on the website and the era started in 1996, which is post the year for the auction of the folios from the Tashkent Manuscript which were recorded in the book: Christie’s ~ Islamic Art, Indian Miniatures, Rugs & Carpets ~ London ~ 27. & 29. 04. 1993. This is logical because Christies don't have the benefit of listing again already sold items that predates their internet era.

smokinloud:
So, you are telling me now that the Kuffic script is a reproduction of the Uthman Qur'an and not the Qur'an standardised by Uthman ba?!.
Now, show me prove it came from the 7th century or the time of Uthman. You haven't shown me that. The Christie's website has well documented of everything it's bought and sold. And I've been able to prove to you that EA Rezvan that you quoted as source never make claims that the Tashkent manuscript came from the 7th century. As a matter of fact he dated it to the 8-9th century as proven earlier.

Not entirely true as website is only fairly recently. That is, they could not have been able to relist what they already sold. That was why they produced books to catalog them prior the internet age.

So, the Hejazi Calligraphies are fake. The Birmingham manuscripts (the Hejazi) is fake?!. Muhammed wrote or permitted the Qur'an to be written in Kuffic Calligraphy?!.
It's like me writing Yoruba language using Chinese alphabet to write it, does it make sense to you?!. That ai said it doesn't make it true. ai copied it from Islam website probably Islamawareness.com that you've been using.

You are mixing it up again. Caliph Uthman (r.a.) ordered the writing of the Quran years later. However, the city Kufa was ordered to be established by the holy Prophet (s.a.w.). Infrastructural developments started at the time of Caliph Umar (r.a.). So the city of Kufa was already matured enough as an educational center before the time of Caliph Uthman (r.a.) who ordered the holy Qur'an written in a book form. The kuffic writing is simply a preferred writing font in Arabia of that time. It is not a different language. So the analogy you are trying to draw is hyperbolic to make it look like they are markedly different and they are not. In fact, it is very common that after learning normal Arabic, many students of Quran can easily read a Quran in Kufic style without needing to undergo further training. See pic 1 for definition.

Bro, you didn't look very closely. It brought 85 results but it's been sold. You're probably looking at the available side but it's on the sold row. Look at your own screenshot very well, if you click on sold you'll see the result. It's very easy

Alright. I have seen it. My aim was to show you that once sold, it is no longer listed. Which is correct to an extent because what you showed me establishes that only items 'listed and sold' via the website have their histories on the website. What if the item was not listed and sold on the website e.g. before the internet era? For example, how did Christie keep the record for those items? This is interesting because internet archive shows that Christie's website "christies.com" was launched in 1996, which is some years after the auction of the Tashkent Manuscript. See pic 2. Now, when we go back to the EA Rezvan work (see pic3), we see that he indeed cited Christie's carbon dating of folios from the Tashkent manuscript which puts the dates at between 6th to 9th centuries.

That cited reference was linked to the book used to catalog the auction at Christie's of the Tashkent manuscript at the time when they had no website for listing. That is the primary source you were looking for and it was shown to you earlier. Show again. Pic 4.

smokinloud:
Do you think Uthman wrote in Kuffic (Iraq and not Hejazi) Calligraphy?. Considering Hejazi was the Arabic Calligraphy of the Qurayshi Meccans during the time of Muhammed. Considering the fact that Uthman wrote the DIALECT of Muhammed do you still think the Iraq calligraphy is the Uthmanic manuscript?!.
Considering the fact that no BRITS will write to the King in Chinese alphabet and King James would never have authorised the KJV bible to be written in Chinese alphabet. Considering the fact that Islamic literature have it bold that Uthman wrote the dialect Muhammed spoke.

The vision for Kufa is another miracle of the holy Prophet (s.a.w.) in leadership that is rarely talked about. The holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) established Kufa himself by an order and prophesied that the city would preserve Islam. In fact, in relevance to this topic, it is one of the places, along with Jerusalem, he visited in his Heveanly journey (not physically), along with the Archangel Jibril. So Caliph Umar moved in quickly during his reign and put in structures in Kufa and then inhabitants moved in enmasse, including the original memorisers of the holy Qur'an, that is, those who learnt directly from the holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) . It soon evolved into a place of advanced academic endeavours. So by the time Caliph Uthman reign ordered for the copies of the holy Qur'an to be written in a book form, the first place to receive and reproduce them immediately was Kufa. That is why you have the Kuffic codex almost as early as the other dialects.

smokinloud:
Let me help you with the official website of Christie's auction house. Here's it: www.christies.com

NOW SEARCH, IF YOU WOULD FIND THE HISTORY ON THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE. THERE'S HISTORY OF EVERYTHING BOUGHT AND SOLD ON THE OFFICIAL WEBSITE. YOU DON'T NEED TO PURCHASE A BOOK FROM AMAZON TO FIND OUT. NOW SEARCH. I GIVE YOU THE GRACE OF 10 YEARS.

Let's do a quick search of the most expensive item that was ever sold at Christie's till date for prominence and proper identification here: Salvator Mundi (pic1). Why is it not found on the Christie website www.christies.com (pic2)? If you can answer this question, then you will realise how the website www.christies.com works and why you will never find it there. Only then you will realise who truly is the dull one here. By the way I give you the grace of 10 years plus 1 to produce "Salvator Mundi" from www.christies.com.

smokinloud:
I asked for a primary source...

First it was outright denial, now more denial but with a tongue in cheek now ... Still your lies keep getting busted. The book was even published by Christie themselves. See below.

smokinloud:
I made extensive research and I didn't find anything like the Tashkent manuscript being taken to auction house Christie not to talk of being sold to them. It's just one of the big fat lies to defend ISLAM. The Tashkent manuscript is dated to the 8th century. STOP THE LIES.

Keep wallowing in self denial.

smokinloud:
I clicked on ur Wikipedia link found what you're referring to to be hoax. Wikipedia provided a source to the claim and I clicked and found this:
E. A. Rezvan, "On The Dating Of An “'Uthmanic Qur'an” From St. Petersburg", Manuscripta Orientalia, 2000, Volume 6, No. 3, pp. 19-22
So, I downloaded the pdf and found out E.A Rezvan didn't make the claim. An Islamist probably went to Wikipedia to edit stuff and put source on it. Check out my find out below. SO, IT'S A LIE THERE'S NO SCHOLARLY WORK THAT DATED THE TASHKENT MANUSCRIPT TO THE 6TH CENTURY

I hope you are not reading the document upside down or have you began to tell lies now? See the citation by the research document below and not some writing on the wikipedia page. The citation was made to the Oxford research work on the Tashkent manuscript while presenting the research work on the St. Petersburg manuscript. But here you are attempting to muddle up the research work on the St. Petersburg manuscript with the Tashkent manuscript.

I also believe you have stumbled on other corroborating evidences such as the Birmingham manuscript that even dates back earlier. But because you want to save your face on Nairaland you came to put up all of these markings up and down in your response to make it look like you had some understandings meanwhile it's all an attempt to falsify facts staring you in the face. The devi is a nairalander, lol.

smokinloud:
your source is Islamawareness a proselytising website. Other non-islamic sources dated it to the normal date, the 8th and 9th century.

No it's from wikipedia, with attached research work.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Samarkand_Kufic_Quran

As promised, make the shahada now!

smokinloud:
You mean the Islamic traditional dating done by muslims?. No, I'm talking about carbondating

Make some effort man!

AntilsIam:
SLAVE, is like you are new on nairaland abi? You don't know AntiIslam

Once debunked on one thing you hop on quickly to another one.
You don't deserve engagement. Bye.

smokinloud:
Who says that?!. Your beloved prophet or your imams?!.
I saved the evidence you brought up so that you won't deny your own very evidence. It never says it was dated to the time of Uthman look at it below.
As a matter of fact, if Islam was true there should be a hip of historical fact because Islam started strong and at that time animal skins were common in writing, animal skins survive thousands of years but there's no proof. Even Meccah that Islam told us about that it was the mother of all city. It was the first City where Adam and Eve lived, Abraham lived and the entire world traded there. History tells us that Meccah never existed as a place of habitat until more than 150 years after Muhammed's death.

Please can you drop your 'loud' for a moment and read the entire paragraph in the screenshot before commenting again?

smokinloud:
I like this, if you have intellectual integrity you'll accept that there's a problem. Uthman supposedly died in 656 but this mushaf (the mushaf is just fragments o. It's not a complete Qur'an) was dated to 778 earliest abi?!. So, can you tell me how someone that died like 150 years earlier come back to life to write the Qur'an?!. Now, this is just the script carbon dating o. You'll be shocked to know that the inks used on it has a different dating of like 500 years interval. Meaning they were writing and rewriting the Qur'an for 100s of years. There clear cancellation of words with older inks and newer inks and their are diacritical and vowels in that manuscripts which didn't exist during his time. How can vowels be found in ur manuscripts when there was no vowels during the time of Uthman?!.

I don't know why you are being deceptive and basing the whole of your logic on the manuscript that were apparent copies from the original that were made later when there is already a confirmation that there were actual folios that dates back to the time of Caliph Uthman with 95% accuracy. The older the more scarce, of course, but it is there as confirmed.

smokinloud:
.... you should have shown me any evidence of the mushaf being carbondated to the time of Uthman. Technology has advanced and the lies of century have been exposed. They can carbon-date anything including skeleton to know when it existed

Carbondated with 95% accuracy.
Time of Caliph Uthman's reign 644-656 AD.

smokinloud:
Are you intentionally deceiving yourself or you are allowing ISLAMIST to deceive you?. The ai source is Islamist website. There's no Qur'an that exist today that can be traced back to the Sahabas. Bring one Qur'an on earth that can be traced to the Sahabas and I will accept Islam today. Note: not oral recitations but written documents. ISLAM started as a great caliphate so there should be artifacts and books written during the first caliphs.
Ibn Ishaq didn't publish books. You're even ignorant of Islam history. IBN ISHAQ SEERAH WAS REWRITTEN BY ONE OF HIS STUDENTS CALLED IBN HISHAM, YOU NEED GOOGLE TO KNOW ABOUT THE HISTORY OF ISLAM WHEREAS I DON'T NEED GOOGLE, JUST LIKE THE QUR'AN WAS WRITTEN AFTER THE DEATH OF MUHAMMED BUT IN THE NAME OF MUHAMMED THE SEERAH OF IBN ISHAQ WAS ALSO WRITTEN IN HIS NAME AFTER LIKE FIFTY YEARS OF HIS DEATH. THE ORIGINAL SEERAH WAS NEVER MADE PUBLIC JUST LIKE THE ORIGINAL QUR'AN WAS NEVER MADE PUBLIC. MY POINT IS THAT THE SEERAH OF IBN ISHAQ AS WRITTEN BY IBN HISHAM SOME FIFTY YEARS LATER( 50 YEARS IS STILL WITHIN ONE GENERATION AND SCHOLARS WOULD ACCEPT IT AS HISTORICAL UNLIKE THE QUR'AN THAT BEGAN SURFACING AFTER LIKE 200 YEARS OF MUHAMMED'S DEATH) IS THE FIRST EVER ISLAMIC BOOK WRITTEN ON EARTH THAT CAN BE PROVEN BY SCHOLARS AND THAT VERY BOOK AUTHOR IBN ISHAQ AND IBN HISHAM HIS STUDENT IS WHOM YOU'RE CALLING LIARS. THEY GAVE YOU THE QUR'AN. THEY TOLD YOU JESUS IS A MERE PROPHET AND MUHAMMED IS THE LAST PROPHET THE HOLY SPIRIT. YOU ACCEPT THEIR SUBMISSION BUT WHEN WE POINT OUT THEIR WRITINGS IN FULL CONTEXT YOU START CALLING THEM LIARS.

Mus'haf Uthmani, see below. Waiting for your shahada on the pages of Nairaland. Don't be shy

fx45:
Gaza is not Arab land. It originally belonged to the Philistines of old. The Philistines were decimated and the Israelites took over. It remained Israelite land until the fall of the Kingdom of Israel and Judah. The Arabs started occupying the land during the Ottoman rule. The History of the Middle East did not begin with the Ottoman conquest. Arabs belong only to the Arabian Peninsula. That is where they come from. Any other space they occupy today was through conquest

That is not entirely true. Especially the "started occupying" part.
Some people do not realise that Palestine was given to the muslims during the time of Caliph Umar (r.a.) in fulfilment of the miracle of the holy prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) because he had prophesied that the muslims will takeover it with Umar (r.a.) being the Caliph. This is reported to have also coincided with a christian prophecy which they found duty bound to also fulfil after they had defeated the Jews prior and took over Palestine. The Ottoman empire came much later than this. In summary, the muslim takeover of Palestine is a Divine ordainment. The goal is Jerusalem and it belongs to Islam and the holy Prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) and it shall come to pass once again.

smokinloud:
Lolz, it's funny when you muslims condemned the reports of Islam earliest scholars, calling them liars. Ibn Ishaq wrote the earliest Islamic book on earth. His book is older than written Qur'an. He's one of the scholars that passed down the Qur'an to you. Yet you accept the Qur'an the earliest muslim scholars passed down to you while you call them liars when their writings contradicts modern and enlightenment values. It's very funny, you use the same source to ignite Jihad amongst your brethren but you quickly call them liars when non-muslims present them to you. Lolz. You accepted that muhammed never wrote QUR'AN that his contemporaries pass it down through recitation yet when those that pass the million of versions of the oral Qur'an that you have today explain verses and muhammed history that inspired the verses you quickly call them (your earliest scholars whom without them you can never have the Qur'an) liars. ISLAM IS A JOKE

Another one on the prowl boldly lying to our faces!!!
Is Ibn Ishaq a sahaba (a companion of the prophet, s.a.w), because the Quran was already compiled to a book form during the time of the Sahaba (r.a.)?
Na wa for una, choi!!!


How can a book written in 767 CE come before the holy Qur'an compiled in 650 CE?

AntilsIam:
You want to expose your messenger through your ignorance. Note that I won't use google to deal with you

In January 624, 'Asma' bint Marwan was killed for opposing Muhammad.


SARIYYAH OF `UMAYR IBN `ADI

Then (occurred) the sariyyah of 'Umayr ibn 'Adi Ibn Kharashah al-Khatmi against 'Asma' Bint Marwan, of Banu Umayyah Ibn Zayd, when five nights had remained from the month of Ramadan, in the beginning of the nineteenth month from the hijrah of the apostle of Allah. 'Asma' was the wife of Yazid Ibn Zayd Ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses.

Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest until it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allah said to him: "Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?" He said: "Yes. Is there something more for me to do?" He [Muhammad] said: "No, two goats will butt together about her". This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allah. The apostle of Allah called him 'Umayr, "basir" (the seeing).

Shifting the goalpost has started? Nonsense! You could not sustain the lies that you started with and now it's time to shift goalpost to another one. So you want to remain in your dark web of lies and an enclosure like Nairaland where you people glee in spreading lies and misinformation? As more and more of your lies become cleared in the open web, you will be forced to come out of your cocoons of evil machinations sooner or later.

Scholars have considered the above as a fabricated story and they gave their reasons, read:

[b]Some scholars consider this story to be a forgery because the only sources for the story are Ibn Ishaq’s Sira and Ibn Sa’d’s Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir. Also, one of the reporters in the chain of narration, Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj, is known for fabricating Hadiths.

Ibn ‘Adiyy mentions this incident in his book “Al-Kamal” on the authority of Ja’far Ibn Ahmad Ibn Muhammad Ibn As-Sabah on authority of Muhammad Ibn Ibrahim Ash-Shami on authority of Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj Al-Lakhmi on authority of Mujalid on authority of Ash-Shu’abi on authority of Ibn ‘Abbas, and added that

“…this Isnad (chain of reporters) is not narrated on authority of Mujalid but by Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj and they all (other reporters in the chain) accuse Muhammad Ibn Al-Hajjaj of forging it.” (Ibn ‘Adiyy, Al-Kamal, Vol. 6, p. 145)

In the authentic Sunnah of the Prophet (Sallallahu Alaihi Wa sallam) prohibits the killing of women in war. (note: in Islam a women can only be put to death if she commited murder as crime)

Narrated Ibn ‘Umar: Messenger of Allah (Sallallahu Alaihi Wasallam) saw the corpse of a woman who had been slain in one of the raids, and he disapproved of it and forbade the killing of women and children. (Bukhari, Vol. 4, Bk. 52, No. 257 & 258).[/b]

Details:
https://islamqa.org/hanafi/muftisays/9140/did-muhammad-have-asma-bint-marwan-killed-for-criticizing-him/

AntilsIam:
What is the name of the Prophet that prophecied about the coming of your messenger and from which scripture do they read it from that Muhammad is coming?

AntilsIam:
Jews and Christians didn't accepted Muhammad and his idol (allah) he wanted to force on them. This made Muhammad to wage war against them and beheaded over 800 of them in one night

Rubbish!!!
Shallow knowledge of history, read below. You are only here to troll, a cheap troll and a liar.

AntilsIam:
Muhammad did the same as he forcefully grabbed Saudi Arabia for Islam by beheading all the Jews and Christians living therein in just one night

This is only a careless statement to massage the ego of your ilks. It's true there were Jews living in Mecca/Medina before the arrival of the holy prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.). In fact, most of these Jews actually arrived in Mecca/Medina in anticipation of the arrival of the holy prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) as they were aware of the prophecies about this prophet from their scriptures including the location where he would arrived at, Mecca/Medina.

There was a minor detail they were ignoring though: they thought he would be of their own stock. A Jew. So when the prophet arrived and it turned out that this was not the case, the grand scheming against him began. And it has remained so till date. The Banu Quraiza incident was one taken to the extremes by these groups of people schemers.

However, there are also many Jews/Christians who converted to Islam because of the matching prophesies and who refused to join in the scheming against the holy prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.). In fact, one of the patriarchs of Islam is the companion Abdallāh ibn Salām (r.a.) who was a full blooded Jew, who then became a muslim. So this pattern of association has also remained till date. That is, there will always be Christian and Jews who see beyond the smokescreens of conspiracies against the holy prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.) and who will convert to Islam because they believe in his message and prophethood.

The Banu Quraiza incident is an established case of treason against a state. This became a founding principle for the establishment of a state or a country in the modern times.

Interesting!
The real hands that pull the strings on the puppets killing the Palestinians is getting more and more manifest.
I hope this is not the decision that will lead to the eventual downfall of America.
Time shall tell.

A timeless movement of peace and proven lovers of the holy prophet Muhammad (s.a.w.).

Tinubu knows his onions

...vast natural gas resources in Kogi

?

Wao Nigeria is a truly blessed country

Righteousness2:
2025 is off to a Very Biblical Start!

“And there will be signs in sun and moon and stars, and on the earth distress of nations in perplexity because of the roaring of the sea and the waves"

We are Living in the Last of the Last moments.
Settle the Matter of your soul.
Live in tge Conciousness of your Eternity.

Na wa o!
How does a raging fire compare to sea waves and moon and stars?

Cancer!
Cancer!!
Cancer!!!

Murderous horde.
They have nothing to do with Islam.