HardMirror:
the guy is stupid. Pointless engaging him.

Why the pain Bro?

You want me to believe your false and emotional narrative. Someone who oppose you now is stupid. Pèlé. Too much of a wiseman. Better get alright and enjoy your day.

LordReed:


Where did you get this assertion from?

Is there a thing we haven't read on NL?

Words, like
when you stop belief in God, you are on your way to enlightenment

Only idiots belief in a god.

Etc

You are a veteran on NL, you shouldn't be asking this, you know it. Hardly will you find an acclaimed atheist who doesn't hold this view. Yet many of them cannot even understand their own very write up.

hopefulLandlord:

if the two premise are agreed to be true then the conclusion would be that you're better off not praying as prayer makes one unfortunate

However I'm curious about what's wrong about these premise of mine

1. Some who prayed and some who didn't died
2. some who prayed and some who didn't survived

conclusion: prayer is useless

Okay Sir. That's why the OP wrote it for some to believe it. So am not surprised.

It's simply called a fallacy of appeal to ignorance. Read on it. A watery defence intelligently robbed on unnoticed emotions.


I hope you hold the below premise too

Premise 1: Some who go to school and some who didn't are poor
Premise 2: Some who don't go to school and some who did are rich.
Conclusion: Then that means school is useless.


Now go back to your premise, likely when you reread and think through it the 10th time you may likely be rescued from the OP trap.

HardMirror:
I now know you are daft. Where did I say people who did not pray survived. Don't be offended if I don't reply you any more. You no get sense

Eeyaaa. E Pèlé Sir. It's like you were under an influence when writing the OP. Éémá survive è soon Sir. É calm down, small.


Just take correction and move on. Next time, arrange your sentiment well before presenting it to the public to avoid being trashed. Abusing or using uncouth words won't change the narrative. Hiding under the same to defend watery argument won't help you either.

You need to go back to your study books on emotional criticism to learn better since that's your hub now.

God bless you Sir

HardMirror:
using their unfortunate situation is what is called REALITY. not the fantasies and lies you folks circulate in church. THIS IS REALITY AND EVERYONE MUST FACE THIS FACTS. those people would have prayed as best as they could yet god did not save them. Get that into your head sir and stop being emotional.
You are asking for genuine premise, you mean I should write on fictional events like the ones in the Bible right? What could be more genuine than this write up?

Strawman approach. You are the one who is lost on reality.

I guess you aren't learn well how to handle arguments but have passion for writing, this is the reasons your write up is full of emotional mirage.

It's not surprising that you try to tread the thin line of mental manipulation using other people's sadness. I have seen much of that with your folks, atheists. But like I told you, it's a low level of thinking and arguing.

Your arguments are too blurred from right vision and thinking.

Imagine one of your premise.

Premise 1: People who prayed died.
Premise 2: People who don't pray survived.
Conclusion: prayer is useless.

Reread that, rate the intelligence of your writing and laugh at your argument


I thought they said atheist are full of knowledge, I ain't seeing that on NL. All I see are untrained psychologist just as you displayed in your fallacious write up.

Your fallacy only appeal to ignorance while trailing the curve of people's emotions.

Your case is like a farmer who want to use the unfortunate happenings on his neighbors ants infested farm to sell his own yam.

His cry awaits him on the day of harvest.

HardMirror:
everything you typed up there are sentimental nonsense.

This write up give me no joy or pleasure, it is imperative that people realize that prayers are useless. I don't know how bringing to light the pains and disappointment of those who died there is basesless to you. This thread is to be pondered upon not briefly and emotionally and baisedly judged. You obviously live your life without learning from events around you that is why you can come here and start typing nonsense

Brother Goodsense.

Sorry to say. Your write up is only a reverse psychology on the unnoticed. It presented nothing. You are actually the one playing on people's emotions and sentiment.

Taking a sad story to justify your point is a low argument. A pure fallacy of appeal to pity. You can do better.

Like I told you, the write up lack both proper thoughtfulness and organization. In the process of trying to use subtle emotional play, you end up struggling to find a direction to your write up.

Maybe when you start writing with genuine premises, your write up will find a better direction and conclusion.

Sirsesan:

[I try to grab how this your definition of inspired can play out practically and i just cant genuinely figure it out believe you me. You sound as if God is a human being. How does God provide the template of past events to Moses without showing him visions and without meeting him or sending those documents to him. How is that possible when God cannot be seen. Where did they meet. Or u mean God enter inside Moses like Celestial Church thing. I just cant figure you out. What are u saying really. You make a whole lot of sensible explanation but didn't do well on the main subject of discussion which is how does God practically inspired people. Demonstrate it pls. At least, if you say Vision, dictation, i can connect quickly but i cannot connect with your own definition of inspired.]

Let's address it this way. Let's try to answer these.

1. WHO DID HE WRITE TO?
2. ARE THE STORY NEW TO THEM?
3. WHAT WAS MOSES COMMUNICATING?


1. WHO DID MOSES WRITE TO
I am sure you know that Moses wasn't writing to the whole world when he was writing Genesis. He never had the whole world on mind. He was only solving immediate problem of his people, Israel, His purpose is to retell God's story to them. These were the primary audience. We will see later why the writing now has to reach the world. But Moses never wrote with the world in mind. He didn't even write it for Egyptian. He was God's prophet to his people.


2. ARE THEY (ISRAELITE) HEARING THESE STORY FOR THE FIRST TIME THROUGH MOSES?

Was Moses telling a new story they never knew? This is one of the great disservice done to the scriptures to believe those stories never existed before Moses. It is not true.

For example
The knowledge of God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob was already with the Israelite. Moses heard God said this and he never questioned it. It was a story told to all children of Israel from tender age.

All these stories have been preserved as folklores and transmitted orally from generation to generation of the Israelite.

Notice, the book of Hebrew 11 ascertain that Moses mother and the sister had knowledge about God's promise, hence kept Moses. They have these stories, Moses learnt them growing up too as any child in Israel.


Also note, that some of these stories were even prevalent and known among non Israelite, the ancient world has story about Noah ark etc. These stories were told in their schools, Egypt has many of these. Moses was schooled by Pharaoh, so he was well exposed to all these stories.

---

This lead to the 3rd question

3. WHAT WAS MOSES COMMUNICATING THEN IF THOSE STORIES ALREADY EXISTED.

Now, this is where the inspiration in the writing comes.

Moses, retold the stories the Israelite knew over generation but now put a meaning to it. That meaning is what the Israelite never knew before, the plan of God. He put the stories together and explained the past, present and future plan of God through them.

Simply means, he put insight into the stories. He explained the reason for the events in a way that non have explained before.


Let me give you an explanation you are used to.

It's like taking yoruba folklore about
Oduduwa
Sango
Esu
Osun
Oya

These stories existed before, now what he did was to reveal events past and future from it. Like telling you what Sango story will bring you at the end of age, why did he come, for who, why did he die. What plan did God has for his people through him.
Taking all specific events to explain a plan that span from the first man to the last days.

This is close to what Moses did for the Israelite. He used those stories to tell God's plan, grace, judgment and salvation for man. This was never in their folklore and stories but Moses now take the stories and gave them insight.


NOW, that means we have two stories.

1. The folklores of Israel told before Moses.
2. Moses insightful explanation using this folklores to explain God's plan.

That second one, was what God did in Moses.

---

So, whose story is the second?

Israel or God's story? Of cause God.

Hence, He is the source of that inspiration, insight and knowledge that Moses used to interpret those events and brought God's mind out from it. He never learnt that from school or from his mother or Israel.

This is the inspiration. That is, God's guidance to Moses was the reason he could write God's story.

So, who inspired Moses? God.
Since he is the one who Moses trusted and obeyed to be able to have such insight and exposition. Then we can convincingly say,

God's inspiration to Moses wasn't about vision but insight and understanding into his plan to see his facts through the story of man, which Moses now documented.

Hence Moses wasn't documenting Israelite folklore but God's story through those events.


@Myer

Sirsesan:

[OK. Maybe i should ask this question for clarity. Vision is through the eye, Audible voice (dictation) is through voice; that's hearing. What channel does inspiration follows since you said is not the celestial church kind of thing. Where u feel the spirit and start scattering chairs.]

When you are inspire by someone's lecture to do somethings, what channel does such inspiration takes? A knowing, right? A knowledge through the mind, a comprehension, insight to think, a wisdom drawn from the entity of inspiration. So simply put, an insight (understanding of events or actions, beyond what it will literarily meant), to have a meaning, via understanding of the facts presented through events, actions and history. That is what you have as Bible.

In this case

1. The source of that insight and understanding of the facts in those events was God. That is the inspiration. Hence its God's story written by man through God's inspiration.

2. The story being told is the story of the one who inspired the writing. If I am telling you my story to write for me, I automatically become the inspiration, the owner, the source fo the information. So what you see as Bible is God's story, God's way of telling his own truth through the ages of men.

HardMirror:
]IKOYI BUILDING COLLAPSE: WE CRIED TO GOD UNTO GOD UNDER THE RUBBLE AND....



This story is the true experience "We" had just 2 weeks ago when the 21 story terrace building collapsed were we were all hustling... It is a satire in honour of the thousands of prayers we made under the rubbles of the collapsed buildings... I hope this story would inspire you readers to think deeply about life and faith


"Happy New Year!!!!!!!!! " Thank God we made it! I walked around to shake the hands of 21 people and say to them... "Happy New Year, this is your year of lifting!"
2021 is our year of lifting according to our Church's theme. Our pastor had just instructed us to walk around and shake the hands of 21 people while processing the theme to them.
This was not the first time.... It was a tradition I had experienced since the day I could talk.
We had prayed and appreciated God for giving us the grace to see 2021.

Our Daddy in the Lord, Reverend Pastor Dr. Mike Ozumba Omotayo JP (PhD) took to the stage and started prophesying to us.

"We cannot die because we serve a living God... You shall not die!"

This year, you will prosper

You have been trekking but this year you will buy your own private jet!

I screamed Amen along with other members of my church!

Our Daddy continued.

" It is IMPOSSIBLE FOR A CHILD OF GOD TO DIE"
we all murmered "Yes"

No of you shall die!....

My leg was broken, I could feel sever pains one that I cannot describe to you. Hell cannot be worse than the situation I found myself in. Everywhere was dark I could hear others also crying, praying and screaming for help.

I have been in in this condition for so long it seemed like eternity, there was no way to tell the time... It was just all so dark. I cannot move any part of my body. The decking concrete slap of the top floor of where I was when the building collapse was pressing me down. I could not breath well. Oh God! This place is really HOT. 5he heat was killing me. I am sweating....haaaaa why God why? Everything is just terrible.
I had prayed for God to save me, I had asked God to please save me, I had cried my eyes out until I could not cry anymore. Even Jesus Christ did not go through this much pain why is Jesus ignoring me. Why has he left me here. Jesus why? Even if I am a sinner, I have prayed and begged you to forgive me.
Where is the holy spirit, I pray in the spirit, I am a child of God.
I prayed even when I got to the site the day of the collapse. I always pray before I started work .... What is happening


Then it started to rAin I could hear the thunderstorm faintly, it was raining heavily, the. Water started to come into the rubble. I was so glad for this, it seemed like god and answered my prayer because I was really thirsty. I could not imagine It was possible for a human to be as thirsty as I was. The heat under the collapsed building had sucked all my energy my tongue was dry, there was no saliva in my mouth again. My throat was bleeding from so much coughing, the bleeding too got dried from the sever heat under this place.
When the rain started, it reduced the heat, the water started coming inside where I was. I could not move very much but I could turn my neck a bit, u turned and started licking the sandy water that was coming in. I did not care if it was dirty it was this time I appreciated life I was living even as a broke guy. Here I am I don't mind if God would save me and make me a mad man on the street or god should just save me and let me be even be an hostage with boko haram. I don't mind they should be raping me every 30 mins as long as they will just be giving me water to drink. God why, why. I cried but tears did not drop any more...

2 weeks later the bodies of 45 people in this condition, had been brought out....

Among survivors have been Christians and Muslims. If the site was in India, Hindu people would have been the survivors. If it were to be in Sweden, survivors would have been Atheists too. If it were in China, we would have had Buddhist s as survivors....
But the survivors all came out saying God loved them.... God had a purpose for their lives.

I guess God hates me and the 45 others that died. I guess God does not have a purpose for our lives.

If God answered prayers, if God loved us, why would he leave us in such pains....


May the souls of the departed find peace. Amen


I hope we can all reflect on this incident and really ask ourselves... WHEN IS GOD EVER USEFUL?

THOSE THINGS WE THINK ARE ANSWERS TO OUR PRAYERS ARE OTHER PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT SERVING YOUR GOD NOT ALSO ENJOYING THEM? DONT PEOPLE FROM OTHER RELIGION ALSO WIN CONTRACTS, BUILD HOUSES, GET ADMISSION, GET ILL AND RECOVER,... THE LIST GOES ON AND ON...
WHat exactly do you think you are enjoying from God of your religion that other people without your religion are not enjoying?

If God answered prayers, this would would have been a better place, stop giving unreasonable excuses to why God does not answer prayers. Excuses are for weaklings not for a God.

In the path of trying to impress your limited opinion you have muddled up your write up. It's hard to differentiate your claim, is it about prayers? Prayers from evil? Or about material things, or acquisition of wealth? What exactly is the point of your write up to start with

I know there is a lot of burden on you and bothering you but ability to write with clarity of purpose is key to discussion.

Secondly, your criticism seems to come from miss information just like some you seems to criticized. Your judgment here had weighed beyond your knowledge, you need to stay within the limit if your exposure or understanding.


Lastly, it's insensitive to be using others predicament and sadness to get to people or score a point where no point is needed. You seem to find pleasure in this.

LordReed:


You can interpret the text anyway that soothes you but the text is clear your god employs deception to his own ends.

When it comes to what is written, opinion are just what they are, they count for nothing

When you are faced with defending what you query and you continue neglecting meaning of text, no one will take your personal opinion serious. This is the reason you need to start researching your defence well and not opinion because the day will surely come, when you will be held one on one to do a textual evidence of what you hold as false or claim to be false, it will be a bad display if you just keep telling them personal opinion that deviate from what is written.

LordReed:


Your personal opinion is to not hold your god responsible, you are very much welcome to that. However it won’t erase what is clearly written, your god uses deception for his own ends.

.

Likely you are resting another Bible. If it's the same in my hands, I will believe that you can hold your personal opinion. That's the reason you write an give your own personal interpretation. But when you want to have a honest interpretation you will seek to understand what's written.

But you have right to hold your own view, even if you few Christians who wants to dwell in errors adhere to their wrong and false explanation of the scriptures, so it's not a new thing. But what opinions can not do is to change the truth.

A truth will always be a truth even among many lies, truth won't change its color to a lie, likewise a lie won't become a truth no matter how much its painted.

Truvelisback:
I have met met many.

Okay Sir.

LordReed:


You can say whatever you like but what is written in the Bible is clear, your god uses deception to his own ends. Whatever excuse you give for why that is the case will not erase that simple fact. LoL.

So we can conclude, that your personal opinion is what you hold but not Bible view.

Final.

Truvelisback:
So, u haven't experienced the same or something related? Many christians can relate to what i am saying, if not all christians. Mind u, i am a christian.

How many Christian have you met in the whole world for you to say many Christian?

Limit your discussion to your environment. Saying many many, means over average. Have you even met half of Christians in your state or country? Please let's speak about what we know.

Sirsesan:

This inspired you're always smuggling in, you've not been able to define inspired. If it is not a vision and not dictated, then it just like you writing it and sprinkling the name of god on it. Past events can only comes to you in a Vision or Someone dictated them to you. Inspiration can only help you bring out an idea not a true life story. Maybe you need to define your own inspiration. If Paul had written about the life of Jesus from inspiration, would you have found it acceptable? If you are not there, youre not there. My submission is this: Moses didnt write Genesis. Genesis is just a compilations of legendary and fictitious stories of Oduduwa and Oranmiya and the likes.
what God did in Moses is to inspire him to document these events If you say, he showed him a vision, i can understand, if you say he dictated those past events to him, i can understand but how can u inspired past events. Ideas can be inspired but not live events. And mind u, the bible never claimed they were dictated or revealed through visions. Or by inspiration, you mean celestial church kind of thing. You cannot see past events if it is not a vision or someone dictating it. NO WAY. ]

You seems not to know what inspired mean as related to writings. You are used to see inspired as vision and things like that. This is why you are any separate inspiration in an events from in writing.

If I inspire you to write a story about Nigeria past, what it means is that I provided a template for your writings. You draw from my words and actions to documents that events.

This is different from if I inspire you to write my won story using events of the past as precursor for your explanation. This is what God did in Moses. (read this again) .

Bible is God's story not Adam, Noah, Abraham, Moses etc. It's God's story about man. Know this first.



Now, for Bible, that inspiration must be seen in God's plan. God's inspiration of the Bible is not to document history even though history will be written in it. God's inspiration is to document God's plan both in the past and future. That's what the Bible writer did.

They were inspired (this is related to their mind) to write God's plan using events in the past to explain God's plan for humanity.


Such events historically may have deviations, other sources etc, but the the focus of those events are not to document history but use those history to explain God's plan.


Example
A key example is Noah's story, historically, Moses wasn't the first person to document this. At least 4 different versions existed in the ancient world before Moses was born.


But the inspiration on Moses was to use that story in history to explain God's plan. Moses writing is not to ascertain, accept or refute how Noah story was but to use the story to explain God's plan for humanity.


The moment you start seeing inspiration as I have to see through the past then you will fall into big error in Bible reading.


Moses documented most things already in existence, already practiced but used them to speak about God's plan from the beginning till the last days.

- Sabbath was practiced in Egypt before Moses
- temple were before Moses
- Sin and death were before Moses.
- Righteousness was before Moses.
- Passover was practice in ancient world before Moses.
- Ark of covenant too were used by the heathen

Moses didn't start any of this.
All these and more were things Moses adopted to explain God's plan.


Hence the inspiration of God in Moses writing is to use those things already in existence, those events already happened in the past to be able to use them and tell God's story. How he was able to put all those events, actions, symbols together to explain God's plan is the inspiration.

I HOPE YOU NOTICED HOW MANY TIMES I MENTIONED GOD'S PLAN in this write up. That should tell you the focus.

You will need to reread what I wrote 3 times to ensure you get this. You are mixing it up.

Thank you.

Gee64:
Would being a Pastor or Church founder be attractive to people if we remove tithe and offering from the church?

Please post your opinion here.

People? Which people? The ones you know around you? Stop generalizing, speak about your community experience not universal assumption.

Pastor work dey attractive?
So much ignorance around this present age.

Truvelisback:
Good day, Fellas. Why do christians suffer after giving their life to Christ? Note: When they had not known Christ then, Their lives use to be rosy. They never experienced any form of difficulty, hardship or life stress. They lived a comfortable life. But immidiately they gave their life to Christ, reverse became the case. Judges, Faculties, can we hear ur comments.

Are you speaking based on your community experience? You may need to change your topic to reflect that you are speaking about those you know. Generalization is a bad thing that covers honesty. You need to present this with all honesty because I know you haven't met at least 10% of all Christians in this world. So let your topic show that limitation. Say maybe Christian you know or around you.

LordReed:


Once again nothing you have written has addressed the simple fact that your god is kool with deception and uses it to his own ends. Instead you've run the gamut of all these other things, why would I need to address the things that don't address my point. You are the one beating about the bush. If you fail to address my point I have no obligation to respond to your strawmen.

Then it is obvious your standpoint is not from the scriptures but person opinion and decision irrespective of what you read or see from the bible. Honesty will mean to judge someone with what he said or wrote not judge by our own opinion.

But no issues, we all see differently whenever we hold personal opinion about things and people.

Ola17:


You are quite haughty.

When you calm yourself down to start reading me well and also asking question from a noble heart, you wont see haughtiness but truth and help.

Sirsesan:

["Those stories were preserved by [b]ORAL COMMUNICATION through their fathers" [/b]This is exactly my point. Error and lies do crept in regarding any history through ORAL COMMUNICATION. There is no exception, it's always the case. Always. I have had more than 20 conflicting story about same event in the Nigeria civil war. An event that just happened less than 60 years ago. The Chinese and all the others you mentioned never refers to those scripts as infallible by any stretch. Why will u think all the events documented in Genesis happened precisely as been told; which we all knows it wasn't the case. Even if u think they are fallible, that's not the stands of the Church. Yours is just like shifting the goal post when a goal is about to be scored. Adam and Eve is one example, it was just a creation myth copied and pasted. The stories in Genesis are told like a video documentary or as though an eye witness told them. I can guarantee you, a whole lot of them are legends. [b]"That is the culture of the Jews. For example, account of Noah's stories exist before Moses was born." [/b]It was more than 1000 years before Moses. This is like Oduduwa and Oranmiyan stories in Yoruba land. These stories are 70% lies, exaggerations and fictions. Yorubas have creation myth and if they have been fortunate enough to receive the religious mandate, that creation myth would have been the one we would be reading today. It would have been certified Gold and unfalsifiable once it finds it ways inside the scriptures. Ridiculous stories becomes legitimate once they appear in religious books. Noah and the others are just like Oduduwa Oranmiyan and the rest.
]

Your response only picked part of what i wrote and didnt consider the whole view of the writing. This is also what happens to many bible reader who doesnt consider the whole view of the bible but interpret them in partial knowledge.

You have left out the key aspect of my statement and also the bible stand point, that the writers were inspired (guided) by God. The writings were said to be divine.
That will answer the two points you put up there. So, take all i wrote to consideration not just part.

LordReed:


Already said you cleared nothing before. Is it that you don't pay attention to what I write and you instead just like to talk at me. If that is the case I won't be responding to you henceforth because I detest such conversations. If you simply want to write what you feel without taking cognisance of what I write then you might as well have the conversation with yourself.

Once again the summation of my point is your god is kool with deception, nothing you wrote has countered that simple fact.

Well, I want to believe that your wrong conclusion was based on what you read from the Bible howbeit, wrongly. This is the basis for my writings. I can only use that same scriptures where you are pointing to, to play back to you how wrongly you have interpreted it. So, I am fully reading and paying attention to what you wrote.


But you are the one who have not taken into cognizance what I am saying to proofread the scriptures again. If not we will only be in circles. If you take your decision from the scriptures, then proper examination of the text is important to know who is giving the right meaning.

But you aren't ready for that. Except maybe your conclusion about God is from another source then I will have nothing to say but if it's from the Bible text, proper examination of the text is what will reveal who is saying the truth.

LordReed:


Have you gotten that your god is kool with deception yet? LMFAO!

Let me repost again in simple note the translation of 2 Thess 2:11

YLT Translation
10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

They believe the lies, not God sending them the lies. They believe the lies of the Antichrist.



Message Translation (This is contextual)
9-12 The Anarchist’s coming is all Satan’s work. All his power and signs and miracles are fake, evil sleight of hand that plays to the gallery of those who hate the truth that could save them. And since they’re so obsessed with evil, God rubs their noses in it—gives them what they want. Since they refuse to trust truth, they’re banished to their chosen world of lies and illusions..

Hence, they were left to their own. That is what is seen in the original.

LordReed:


Have you gotten that your god is kool with deception yet? LMFAO!

I believe you have been cleared about the midwife and Abraham.

Now let me take the 2 Thess 2 you have emphasized. Truly i would have loved it if you are into Christian hermeneutics, it would make things easy for me to explain because of the route i will take now.

Now the problem in 2 Thess 2 isnt your own but the way the translators addressed it. And this is the reasons most times in hermeneutics you have to examine the original writings to conclude.

---

Now this is what you quoted.
2 Thess 2:11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: KJV

I can authoritative tell you this is wrong considering the context and usage of words.

1. The word delusion there is taken from the word planē, it means error or to stray away.

KJV captured it better in James 5
Jas 5:20 Let him know, that he which converteth the sinner from the error of his way shall save a soul from death, and shall hide a multitude of sins.

The word error (planē) here is what 2 Thess 2:11 captured as delusion.

---

This is even simpler mistake by most of the translation, the key mistake from the translation is in expressing the whole verse different from the original writing stated.

If you pay attention, it already showed you that this people are disobedient and neglected God.

Verse 10
10 And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

So, these ones already rejected the truth, its not about God sending them away or bringing lies to them. They have seen the truth and rejected it. That must be carried in explaining verse 11.

With this, it is wrong translation to state that God will send delusion for them to believe a lie. These ones already believed lies, they are children of lies. Hence, that wasnt the translation. If you want i will send you the way the original was constructed for you to the the translators mistakes. But let me give you the closest to the original intent.


YLT Translation
10 and in all deceitfulness of the unrighteousness in those perishing, because the love of the truth they did not receive for their being saved,
11 and because of this shall God send to them a working of delusion, for their believing the lie,

A key elements, is that God didnt send them deception to believe a lie but, left them in what they already believed.



See the Message Translation (This is contextual)
9-12 The Anarchist’s coming is all Satan’s work. All his power and signs and miracles are fake, evil sleight of hand that plays to the gallery of those who hate the truth that could save them. And since they’re so obsessed with evil, God rubs their noses in it—gives them what they want. Since they refuse to trust truth, they’re banished to their chosen world of lies and illusions..

Please read this again.

That is the read interpretation if you examine the original text and also context.

LordReed:


Your god didn't send a man to Ahab he sent a spirit. In the new testament it says he will send a strong delusion so I dunno what man's imperfection has to do with it. Your god uses deception period.

Have you gotten the part of the man first?

Ola17:


I want to believe you are capable of comprehension?

In your reply to a poster on this thread, you posted a lengthy write up trying to explain away why god condones or engages in deception and lies and I said being the Christian god should be the easiest job ever as all God’s fvck ups are willfully explained away by its adherents.

Do you understand now?

No i dont Sir because your response is away from reality of discussion.

Your comment never address anything but just what we can call a roadside gist. This is the reason i am helping to know how to interfere into discussions. The discussion here isnt like market gist or scene, that you just give a road side exclamation and continue facing your road. What i mean is be serious when you are interfering into discussions.

LordReed:


Where do you see me mention injustice? Where do you see me blaming your god here? I wrote, for the umpteenth time, your god is kool with deception. Do you need me to translate it to a different language for you?

I can admit, that your conclusion is based on wrong knowledge of the scriptures. Or likely a refusal to take what you read. I want to believe its the first.

And to help you conclude well,

The Bible God does not only overlook deception of all men, he overlooked their weaknesses and sins, including yours and mine. He submerged them into the ocean of his grace, to make a new man, who will commence a new life learning the way of the Lord.

You must see beyond the deception, even sins, all sins, worst sins of man were overlooked at the appearance of his grace. So, you arent speaking anything new of that is your point. All those points are to reveal His grace even in man's sins.


[b]A father who want to train his child well, yet complains and focus on the child's deception of stealing sugar isnt ready to be a father.[/b The fatherhood of God, isnt neglecting you in that your lies and deceptions, he is working his way out to make you a better person.

LordReed:


You surely did try to justify their actions by painting a similar scenario where deception employed is outweighed by the magnitude of saving lives. That is called justification.

It is you people who are seeking perfection not me. I am fully aware that humans are not perfect and probably never will be so we employ funny lil tricks to get by and survive. On the other hand you posit a perfect god yet his ends get met by employing these same funny lil tricks imperfect humans employ. Says a lot about the true nature of your god, he is a reflection of the minds that created the character. They could not think past the solutions they were familiar with.

You still see, you have read the bible wrongly. You will need to take my word as gospel truth, irrespective of what you have learned in the past. Take this to the bank.

1. Bible never presented a perfect man, bible never seek a perfect man. Bible presented imperfect men, perfected by God. It explained a perfect God, leaving his domain to seek, find and dwell with imperfect man. This is what the bible presented. If you have a different opinion of this, you arent speaking of the bible.

2. Men even in bible days, were learning as you are today within the confined of their exposure. They werent perfect. They lied, they deceived, they kill, they disobeyed. Seeking for an all knowing man in the bible will be an hypocrisy. No such man existed and bible presented it clearly as such. This should simply let you find out what exactly is God's demand if imperfect people, liars, etc can still find grace, them you need to ask what does God demands. Its in this you will know God's heart revealed through the Bible.

3. Any one presenting to you perfection in man, or man walking perfectly by his own, or man receive God's blessing because he walked perfectly is lying to you. He himself, with such utterance is a true evidence of God's grace to liars and imperfection.


So when you read man's weaknesses in the bible, see this as you are even today, you walk through challenges of life, have decisions to make, sometimes wrong ones, sometimes good ones. Man will always be imperfect as much as decisions are based by his. It is a walk with God's spirit that gives you the right direction to things, but the best of man is still learning that and can still walk in the flesh to disobey. Even me.

So, read bible with this eye. No bible actor is perfect, non. and bible made you see that clearly, hence its honest stand point.

LordReed:


Your god is perfect so why did he send a lying spirit to Ahab? Your god is perfect why does he plan to use deception in the end times? The excuse that it was imperfect humans does nothing to alleviate what the Bible plainly writes, your god is kool with deception. Your god punishes people for all manner of infractions in the Bible, name 5 he punished for deception.

I know you are only trying to pull legs. But i know you know how to read properly and would have read all i wrote.

A perfect God using imperfect men is the story of the Bible. That means for those who are punished for any reasons, we will have to examine why they were. If God could work with imperfect men, that means everyone could be used of him, including you. Our imperfection is what reflects his grace.

So, if you are seeing the ability of God to work through imperfection of men as a bad or injustice of God, then you are much more expression in grace as available in imperfect men. Where imperfect abounds, grace much more reigns. So, i see each moment of your blaming God as evidence of his grace abounding much more around you. Not a God that seeks your perfection but one who in your imperfection still seeks for you.

hupernikao:



Having cleared the first one.
I will address Abraham's case next, later today when am settled.

@LordReed

The case of Abraham is simple.

The first thing is still what I have said over time. Seeing God as one who want to use only perfect men is a wrong doctrine, God doesn't seek men's perfection, it can't be found. God perfect what he chooses.

Secondly, you take Bible men and the stories like what we watch in movies, a perfect scenario of events. But this isn't what the Bible presented to you.

For example, the Bible never presented a perfect man, morally, infact the Bible in its honesty, is one of the few ancient books that presented in honesty the weaknesses, errors of its major actors. It never hide their weaknesses and its evident to you. That alone should let you know that the Bible is a honest book.

Likewise know, God presented to you that the weaknesses of man even though obvious, he still used man like that. That is the grace taught through all scriptures.


You will see this in all major actors in the Bible. Hence looking for their faults to condemn God's action will only show that you haven't read the Bible well or understand its story.

So, I will present to you next an Abraham's life as a normal man just as you in his time, with several issues of life to handle and decisions to make.

Ola17:


Why do you make excuses for your god whenever it perpetuate or condone lies and deception?

Can you be more expressive. I am sure you must have a scripture to refer to. Have you read it well or you carried what you were exposed to in your mind.

Maybe you can present it to know if you actually read it well or assuming.

LordReed:


You cleared nothing. You tried to say they didn't lie then you went to their lying is justified. They lied, your god approved of their methods and blessed them, written in black and white. LMFAO!

Yeah take a chill pill and come back, I'll be here. LoLz

You will need to read me well to get me well.

1. I never justified their lying neither do I condemn it. That isn't my concerns in this case.

You are the one focusing on their weaknesses to condemned their actions and God's justification. I never did, God never did.

I have mentioned to you before that these people are humans like you and walk through their own challenges daily, which will include rational and irrational decisions. But you must observe well what God's action is in the discussion.

You still read the God presented in the scriptures as one who always use perfect people. But scriptures never presented such to you. God used people of many weaknesses and errors and walking through their true intentions to honor them. That's 2hat the Bible presented to you.

That is what was written. And am sure that's what you read.

LordReed:


LMAO! How am I reading deception into what is not there? They clearly told the king a falsehood since they were the ones who saved the babies and not the tales they told the king. And what of all the other places I have mentioned where your god actively employs deception by his own self? Your bible makes it clear your god is kool with deception, take off those rose tinted glasses man. Bwahahahahaha!

Having cleared the first one.
I will address Abraham's case next, later today when am settled.