₦airaland Forum

Chelseafan1:
The same De bryune that was useless in the same team with him.
Over 2 legs this season, we all saw who was the boss except a blind Barthomew like you.

If you don't have any reasonable reason to tell me why Hazard has been our best player since he joined, go and die inside one gutter abeg.

My friend shut the hell up. DeBruyne is currently voted the best Belgian in a foreign league. Belgium fans don't buy these wolf tickets you are selling.

I asked y'all a few days ago to show me where Hazard has outproduced DeBruyne in the last 3 years and nothing substantial was forthcoming.

lalaboi:
Hazard fanboys at it again.

Ibime, you wont get anywhere arguing Hazard with these one sided muchachos who wont accept nor say the truth even when their lives depended on it.

Best player no be by mouth when you don't consistently have the stats to back it up. He is currently not one of the top scorers in the league. He is currently not even top 10 assisters in the league. for someone who is supposedly 'Chelsea's' best player whom some pricks want us to believe that he's Ronaldo/Messi and even Neymar level. Ori yin o fe pe!

Mourinho the reason Hazard has not flourished? which kain yeye nonsense be this?

Or maybe theres more to it. These pro-hazard dudes have won money on this board before because of hazard, hence the loyalty being displayed alongside the level of absurdity of their claim.

He may arguably be Chelsea's best 'attacking' player but that doesn't mean we cant speak up when he isnt doing enough...

Their inanity on this board has gotten out of hand while some of us long term fans sit back and tolerate their delusional antics.

Chelseafan1:
Facts are those I stated staring at you in the face, Hazard is prefered to all those players you rate above him by all the managers that have coached him At Chelsea...I have no words for all the nonsense you posted above.

Quote me when your De bryune, Pedro and Willian gets rated higher than Hazard, till then, keep your foolish, senseless opinions to your bloody self.

You must be very foolish fanboy1.

Can you show me where I rated Pedro and Willian over Hazard are you just pulling statements out your àss?

DeBruyne I will rate higher. You can like it or lump it, until you can show me different.

Don't bring me into your Hazard WPOTY nonsense again fückboy. Hazard is just a good player for my team, one of my top 11 Chelsea players of all time. There are others ahead of him that we never compared to Ronaldinho, Messi etc al who did 10 times what he has done.

Greatihex:
you have a point in what you said. But, the question question is, is that totally the case with hazard? For me, I will no. I watch Chelsea matches and see the chances created by hazard and it doesn't totally correlate with what you said.
Take for instance, pedro and maybe willian have more assist than hazard this season, does it mean that both play better quality of passes than hazard? The answer is no. So, you see why it is not really the quality of pass and weight of pass. For me, I think that it is in the nature of the pass the striker likes to score from and luck.

I can't call it. All I know is if there's urgency in your game, and you are producing quality final passes, assists will surely follow. I don't believe in luck. I saw Raheem Sterling leading in key passes at some point of the season 2 or 3 years ago without the assists to show for it. And when you look at the type of chances he was creating, they were not clean. There are different quality of chances. When the likes of DeBruyne, Eriksson, Fabregas hit you with a goalscoring chance, the whole world and his mama knows the chance is clean and easier to score.

hensben:
so you're saying hazard is not one of the best player in the world currently? What an arrant nonsense coming from you.

Don't take your delusions too far bro. What makes Hazard one of the best players in the world today?

Chelseafan1:
You are probably the only Chelsea fan that complains about Hazard all the time. Would you rather we sell him off and stick to them Pedro and Willian?

There is a good reason all the Coaches that have come to Chelsea since Hazard joined regard him as our best player and cannot bench him for anyone, not De bryune, not Pedro, not Willian, not Fabregas, not Salah, who else.?

None of them has dropped him cos of his low stats, None!!! What does that tell you about stats when it comes to players like Hazard, Ribery, Zidane and Iniesta.?

Stop giving all these trolls reasons to yarn dust abeg.

I don't complain about Hazard. I complain about y'all turning Hazard to what he is not.

So because y'all run wild with your puerile childish fantasies that Hazard is one of the best in the world you think there are not many Chelsea fans like myself, FBS, Lalaboi that put Hazard just where he is in football heirarchy.

Hazard is no more than a Ribery in football, and that's fact. I rate him how I rated Ribery, nothing more, nothing less. He just made my Chelsea all time 11 for the first time this season.

It is y'all fanboys running around comparing him past his level. We are Chelsea fans. We have players who took us to UCL semis every year, players who scored 20 goals, 15 assists every year, players who actually came 2nd in Ballon D,'or and we did not hype them to this level. Hazard meanwhile is still owing us a half-decent UCL season, after getting us knocked out against Atleti in 2014 . You better check yourself boi. You must have slipped and knocked your head coming at me with this bullshit. Step off.

Greatihex:
i don't have a conclusion on this yet, but I want ask this question.
In 2014/2015 season, hazard created the most chance in the EPL, despite not taking set pieces. How come Fabregas who created lesser number of chances was able to get assists almost double that of hazard?

Quality of pass, weight of pass etc.

Whereas Fabregas drop ball for you so all you have to do is shoot one-on-one with goalie, Hazard might flash ball across box where striker has to execute a difficult manoeuvre to score.

It takes no gainsaying to know that if you heard that Wilfred Zaha for example made more chances than say Christian Eriksson, you sef will know the kind of chances Zaha creates are not quality chances, they are probably chances where he dribbles to the byline and flash the ball at top speed toward the striker making it difficult to score, whereas Erikssons chances will be easier to convert.

pamcode:
Well his 14/15 was better than his 16/17 stat wise. When I quoted you i didn't realise the full arguement on ground, For me Mourinho can't be blamed for Hazard statistics the only difference between him and Conte is the position he plays. In fact I believe Mou built the team around Hazard's ability un like with Conte where we have four or five players contributing to the team play.

That's just the truth.

The full argument is that niggas can't claim Hazard was suffering under defensive manager without showing increased output under attacking manager.

airmark:
You always use wrong premise to conclude, thats why you getting trumped. You have misinformed this house several times and i kept mute cos i know you hardly back out, even when presented with facts. Calling me mugu 1m times will not change the fact that you dropped fallacies, got called out and got banged. I am waiting for those 2 seasons hazard had more goals than this term. Then, i can proceed to explain how hazard has more attack score this season. Atole.

This is why you are a mugu, because after arguing nonsense about squawka attack score being what professional managers use, you have demurred to telling us goals is the only metric you can back. I will be back on this matter on Monday if Hazard fails to score tomorrow, then all 3 metrics will be below 2014/15, and then you will start to explain why attack score is still higher. Mugu.

I am still waiting for your answer on why Costa discriminates between Hazard and Fabregas BTW.

airmark:
What nonsense is similar goal ratio ? Stop disgracing yourself this early morning bro. You promised to show me 2 seasons where hazard had more goals than this season. Stop injecting one stvpid similar goal ratio thingy. Below is your line, i didnt make it up. I am waiting.

I knew you eediot would try to deflect which is why when I stated the seasons I told you exactly what it was.

Now this is where you expose your poor sense of proportional reasoning.

So Hazard had

0.46 Vs 0.44 for goals scored - 5% difference
And 0.15 Vs 0.22 for assists - 46% difference

We already know key Passes was better in 14/15 so let's make it simple and leave it out knowing it would work in 14/15 favour.

So we can just deal with goals and assists.

Now, mugu, this is how weighted average works. You assign a number between 0 and 100 for goals and a number between 0 and 100 for assists. I don't want to go into calculation cos you are too dumb for that but rest assured, Goals will need to have at least 4 times more weight than assists to ensure that attack score of 16/17 trumps 14/15 by 5 points if all other metrics are considered negligible.

That is where the subjectivity of the weighting comes in. It is either you are suggesting the 0.02 difference in goals far outweighs the 0.07 gap in assists to ensure that 16/17 score is 5 points higher, or as I told you, there is poor weighting distribution between the other metrics which should be irrelevant.

pamcode:
Really bro. Why don't you post the number of matches played.
Hazard played 62 games in 2013
Hazard played 49 games in 2014
Hazard played 52 games in 2015
Hazard can't play more than 43 games this season, so of course his output is expected to be lower. In fact the only area Hazard diminshed is his assist output, his 15 league goals is higher than any other season plus Hazard has always been our penalty taker right from when he joined us. This season he hasn't scored more than 3 from the spot am sure of that.

I'm sure you saw where I did the goals/assists per game calculation between 2014/15 and 16/17. Feel free to do it yourself and tell me what you find. If you find 14/15 was better, please come back and report

airmark:
From attack score to overall score. You think you are arguing with a dumbass?. You have switched to ramuzaki's mode, full-blown. Even in 2013/2014, hazard had 14 goals and not up to this season's. Next time dont argue blindly throwing a challenge you cant survive in. Collect your L and drive to peckham to settle guys with some bucks, for your sins to be forgiven.

Overall attack score dumbo. Here it is.

Much better assist ratio.
Better key passes ratio
Similar goal ratio.

Which tells me that other factors such as dribbling etc have affected the overall score with undue influence due to poor weighting distribution in Squawkas formula.

airmark:
Your conclusion is wack, cos again you based it on faulty premise. Show me not two seasons, just 1 epl season hazard had more goals, similar assists and more key passes and has lower attack score compared to this season? If you cant produce that then you should appologise for wasting my time on this needless convo.

Pull up Hazard 2013/14 Vs 2016/17.

Goals per 90 minutes
Assists per 90 minutes
Key passes per 90 minutes
Overall attack score

You will see much better assist ratio, better key passes ratio and similar goal ratio, yet the lower one is rated higher. Which tells me that other factors such as dribbling etc have affected the overall score with undue influence due to poor weighting distribution in Squawkas formula.

airmark:
There is no much difference tween you and ramuzaki in twisting one's statement. I wont digress from the main argument. Why wont there be little difference in attack score staring you in the face to dismiss your wrong view?. You just look for assists and goals and start using your business accounting skills to conclude who is bad and who is not. Thats why you are blind to see other crucial stuffs players like iniesta brings to the table. You try so hard to discountenance other areas of rating a player, highighting assists as if the number is not a function of how effective those you give passes are, in front of goal. We saw it clearly in hazard's case this season. Thats why i want him to go to madrid and play with better players after winning ucl with us. To everyone who is not blind, the higher defence score in 2014/2015 clearly shows that hazard had more defensive responsibility then than now. With costa of 2014/2015,hazard would have easily got 30+goals /assists this term. You cant serve us balderdash, hazard can develop on his new freedom next season and with a great poacher who will not destroy our attacking moves, he will hit greater numbers. Saying this season, he is least-productive is, shocking when the numbers even disagree with you. If you could throw away the improvement in his key passes, possession, improved contributions to attack, then no need to argue further as you are ready to grow beards in your delusions.

This is why I keep it simple. If I show you two seasons where Hazard had better goals, better key passes, similar assists yet had lower attack score, would you agree the total attack score on squawka can be misleading.

What I was trying to show you is not whether everything is taken into consideration, but how each metric is weighted. It would help if you actually knew how a weighted average calculation works before spewing trash. That's the reason I asked you to explain how the calculation works and it's obvious that you are clueless.

The only other metric when calculating attacking returns that I can allow to matter is key passes. If a player has better goals, similar assists, better key passes yet scores lower, you should know that such metrics should not be brought up for discussion in a comity of intelligent people. Clearly their weighted average method assigns undue influence to other metrics like dribbling etc that skews the total score.

This is why I asked you to explain how their metric puts Herrera over Dembele and Kante, and you can't answer.

The day you realise that all these rankings are subjective is the day you reach Eureka. The subjectivity is always in the weighting of each metric when they calculate their average. Castrol Power Ranking will have their own different weighting methodology which will churn out different results, as will Whoscored and every other ranking body.

These rankings can be used as a general indicator, but are not to take precedence over quantifiable facts. In this case we are discussing "attacking returns" and goals and assists are the only quantifiable fact on ground.

So when discussing with me, please stick to quantifiable facts only. As a general rule, if you don't know the formula of how something is worked out, don't bring it into serious discussion otherwise you are out of your depth. Please observe this rule so you don't expose your nyash going forward.

And finally, you keep pinning blame on Costa as to why Hazard has low assist. Your litany of excuses for Hazard is becoming comical. Every striker has about 20-30% conversion rate. You think Harry Kane does not miss ~70% of the chances that Eriksson lays on for him? Yet if Costa miss just one of Hazard chance, you will blow it up.

Please answer me, does Costa discriminate between Fabregas passes and Hazard passes?

lordfalcao:
Don't try to sound smart. You never said we are winning the league if we sign kante and conte. In February we never knew who our next manager is, so how come they are your candidate? If we had brought another manager and he won the league will he still be your candidate??

You clearly said with JM at man u and pep at city we are not seeing the league in 3years, which I said that a lot can happen in 3 years.

Between show me a post where I said we are winning the league with Mikel and Ramirez..

Come and tell us how we won the league in between 3 seasons and your candidates for the league sitting 4 and 6th..

Quit acting foolish. Me expressing fear for the direction my club was heading back in Feb 2016 is what you went to go and dig to traduce me.

You think I have time to go dig your nonsense posts? What concerns me with holding discussion with a certified dunce like yourself? When Bigkesh told you arguing with you is frustrating, you think he was paying you a compliment?

Nobody is going to beat his chest and say they predicted Chelsea would win this season. All you need to know is that I was happier with the direction the club was going with the signings of Conte and Kante so I stopped being so negative about our chances. Dazall.

hensben:
yes mou is defensive and anti football. Hazard scoring high that season is down to his individual brilliance.

It was two seasons under Mou that Hazard had higher returns. If Jose was holding him back, he should feel free now to prove that.

hensben:
Chelsea already signed conte and Kante when I made that statement that we have the team to compete with man city and manure which you disagreed.

I doubt that, I'm not discounting it completely but you have to show me for me to believe.

However that does not absolve your statement that we had the team last season which is clearly false.

hensben:
You're just emphasizing on stats, you know what I'm not a fan of that reason I will not argue with you.

If "defensive manager" stops holding you back, your attacking returns (goals and assists) should improve. There's no two ways about it. Attacking returns was inherent in your original statement.

"Attacking manager" did not free you from defensive duties to go and dance skelewu upfront.

In other words, this "defensive manager" stuff is just an excuse, a crutch.

airmark:
Soccer experts will throw this into a trash can. I have shown you other stuffs experts look for, you keep adding assists and goals together. Thats how you concluded kdb was better than hazard since 3 seasons ago even when not in same league. Costa of 2014/2015 would have buried most of assists supplied by hazard and you wouldnt have got the nerve to be calling him out on low assists. Even at that, I juxtaposed the rating of this season and 2014/2015 using squawka. May be key passes and other essentials are not needed in soccer anymore.

What soccer experts? This is how you told us you were using pig-in-the-middle to learn slide tackling as a soccer expert.

My friend shush. In the first place there is little difference in the attack score of the nonsense you posted, and not enough to base any argument that defensive manager was holding back Hazard. First show of foolishness.

In the second place, you don't have any idea of how squawka scores are aggregated. You think managers are as dumb as you to use the aggregated attack score in choosing between players? The aggregated score is no more valid than FPL scoring system for awarding bonus points. I can show you squawka where a player has more goals, similar assists, more key passes yet rated lower probably because he had less dribbles. How they aggregate their scores is based on them assigning weighted averages to each metric which different people will disagree with. For example, they might not place strong weight on no of touches, whereas Pep Fraudiola might. . . . . or they might place more weight on number of dribbles whereas a manager might not. Other attacking players also get points aggregated for clean sheets when clean sheets has little to do with them.

You just go on squawka, don't understand what you are reading and come here sounding ignorant. You were even dumb enough to call it "points per game" as if squawka total score is some universal metric that every football club uses, as if the clubs don't have their own data analysts to churn the raw data from Opta and aggregate exactly what they are looking for. Who told you dumbass that football managers use Squawka total score to choose their players? Squawka ko, why not Castrol Power Rankings or Fantasy Premier League score?

This is why I kept it simple to goals and assists so numbers are not misconstrued.

Well since you have chosen squawka attack rating as your God and given up the freedom to think and calculate for yourself, go and argue with Squawka about Alexis Sanchez and Hazard. . . .or if you prefer, go and argue with Squawka when they tell you Herrera has outperformed Dembele and Kante.

We are talking of attacking returns (goals and assists), you are going to bring squawka total score. Mscheeew.

airmark:
Have you accepted that hazard is more productive in the team this season than he was in 2014/2015? That's what i have time to show you in my last post. I have little time for long explanation.

I have little time for those who don't even understand numbers when they look at them and how they are derived.

Hazard 32 goals/assists in 2015 in 52 games = 0.63 goal contribution per game.

Hazard 23 goals/assists in 2017 in 41 games = 0.56 goal contribution per game.

So stop mumbling jargon and tell me exactly how you calculate the nonsense you are saying. Do you even know how those things you look at are average weighted? Don't let me make example out of you this night for talking beyond your capacity.

0.5 seasons with Di Matteo, 0.5 seasons with Benitez, 2.5 seasons with JM, 0.5 seasons with Hiddink and 1 season with Conte, and no discernible upturn in his attacking output under Conte. Proof enough that this nonsense "defensive manager" yarns is just an excuse to hide under.

airmark:
That's your own criteria for rating player's productivity and it's not the coaches' standard. Points per game encompasses more than that.

Dude, what is points per game? You ain't talking to no bozo. How do you calculate points per game? Explain it to me in simple English - what is the numerator and what is the denominator?

I know you ain't talking about league points per game which every player gets. You can't be.

lordfalcao:
How far....

How far is you should take your studies more seriously and quit being a dunderhead. You even went to dig my post from Feb 2016 long before Chelsea signed my preferred candidates Conte and Kante. FYI, your boy Emenalo was pushing for Pellegrini to come and mess us up even more but Roman overruled him.

Read what I said:

Ibime:
And don't try any funny business stating that I wrote off our chances this season. My comments were made end of last season before we signed Kante and Conte.

So what are you proving with your stewpidity? These are the kind of folks who told us we can win with Mikel/Ramires/Oscar and co, then when we got rid of them, signed real niggas like Kante and actually won, they come back to say they told us so.

airmark:
This is debatable, only that i'm a bit busy now. Hazard's points per game in epl this season is more than that of 2014/2015 season.

What is points per game? Everybody's points per game is higher because the teams points are higher.

Hazard 37 goals/assists in 2013
Hazard 27 goals/assists in 2014
Hazard 32 goals/assists in 2015
Hazard 23 goals/assists in 2017 (now penalty taker)

And one clown will blame defensive managers for holding him back in the past because he decided to eat too many kebabs last season and lost his sharpness. Meanwhile this is lowest season for attacking returns except kebab season.

hensben:
This season.

No, you said Mourinho made people to believe the players weren't good enough last season but you always believed we had the players to win the league. Yet you can't tell me which midfield you planned to win the league with.

And don't try any funny business stating that I wrote off our chances this season. My comments were made end of last season before we signed Kante and Conte.

I have been the voice calling for midfield reinforcement on this thread for the last 5 years, and the first to recommend Kante whilst you thought Mikel and Ramires would win league for you last season.

I'm still waiting for you to back your statement that defensive manager was holding back Hazard. All I need is facts on ground, not populist hogwash that has no basis in reality. This is Hazards least productive season except the season he chose to become a fatboy.

http://talksport.com/football/hes-too-fat-hidden-hazard-slated-chelsea-supporters-150912166301

Nihilist:
The 343 is not that different to a 433 with a DM. And if you go back and check people were requesting 433 with Luiz as DM on this thread.

Luiz signed this season. What we are fact-checking is hensben statement that we had the team to win last season.

With which midfield?

We have already fact-checked his erroneous claim that Hazard was being held back by defensive manager, when his attacking returns this season is not up to any season under Mourinho except for his pregnant season.

hensben:
I didn't see the league coming home but I knew for sure we have the players to compete Unlike you that make it seem manure and man city will be invincible.

You mean last season or this?

hensben:
You didn't get my point. In the world stat mongers think he's not up there with the best, mou called him out after psg game that he didn't defend enough, he had an injury. Do you want to deny the fact that mou was behind our woeful performance last season. The whole players performed below average not just hazard.

Hazard performance last season is mostly on his head for turning up pregnant after the summer break. At least Hazard should have had an average season eg 9 goals, 8 assists if it's because the whole team is affected. . . . not actually becoming one of the worst players on the team like he did.

The fact remains that if you say defensive manager was holding Hazard back, you must show attacking returns this season better than JM tenure. Hazard attacking returns in every season he played under Mourinho is better that this season, except for the season he chose to show up pregnant after eating pork and beans all summer.

Nihilist:
What I know is that before the switch to 343, it didn't look like we could win the league either.. yet we had the players.

That was what led me to cuss Conte out when he suggested that maybe our players were not good enough.

As soon as he played an extra defender, our story changed to the point where it became obvious to all that we really only needed one DM, as Matic mostly ghosted through the season.

Kante was able to shine so bright precisely because Conte solved the defensive conundrum, and that switch is the root cause of our win...not an improved midfield

In my own opinion o,

It's 343>Kante>Hazard>Costa>Fabregas

Beauty of hindsight.

Nobody was talking 3-4-3 as possible solution until Kante implemented it.

Nihilist:
I'm not trying to downgrade Kante at all bruv. Of course he played a massive part in the title win.

The angle I was tackling was midfield talk.

Matic and Fabregas midfield cannot win league.

Last time we won league, Zouma had to see us through as an emergency DM when teams sussed out to get at our midfield.

Zouma cannot win league in other words.

Kante has provided the midfield difference two years in a row now.

That's before going into Luiz replacing Terry and Alonso ostensibly replacing Ivanovic/Rahman.

Nihilist:
Was Kante not in that midfield before 343?

Without Kante, 3-4-3 would not win league.

Even at that, I don't think hensben or any Chelsea fan or any Premier League manager last season can claim he had idea that can use 3-4-3 to win league. It was not part of the conversation. That is what we call Bluewater thinking - or in IT, you call it disrupting.

Nihilist:
Don't do this.

There is no dispute there. That is fact.

hensben:
Hazard came to Chelsea when the team was in decline due to old age, since then Chelsea has been on a rebuilding process, to make things worse for him we had a coach(mou) who play negative football.

Another nonsense.

Hazard under JM in 14/15 = 32 goals + assists and 8th in WPOTY.
Hazard this season = 23 goals + assists (including penalties)

Nobody told Hazard to turn up pregnant and unfit for preseason last year. Stop blaming manager.