₦airaland Forum

aribisala0:
Where did I claim any of those things?
You are programmed to bark and bite for no reason

What I will say that is a fact is your people never evolved beyond the Umunna level of self organization or administration. That is why it was possible for smaller groups like the Itskekiri, Efik and Ijaw to sell you as slaves for centuries

The Igbo had better organization level than your people could muster, reason the greatest resistance to colonial was in Igboland.
You need organization to fight a superior force like the British.
No Efik,Ijaw, or non Igbo could enter Igboland and return back alive in precolonial days.
Yoruba like you whose people were sold all over Americas as slaves by the Bini and Nupes (Tapa) has no stand to talk about slave trade.
But I'm not surprised, wisdom has never been your forte, which was why you finished yourselves fighting stupid kiriji wars and begged the whites to colonize you just to save you from your savage selves by ending the senseless wars.

aribisala0:
You are not saying any of this based on facts but because it is what you want to believe and what causes your ego the least distress. Your antagonist has his agenda which again is based on unknowable "facts"
We are talking essentially of unknowable things that happened over 100 years ago and you both talk as if you were there.

Ultimately you are motivated by a desire to preserve Ego integrity and you should observe yourself and your drives closely

Do you have evidence that Crowther could speak Igbo?
Nope!
Do you have evidence that Crowther preached to Igbos in Igboland? Nope.

All you are interested in is your foolish ego and stupidity to claim superiority over a people who you are no match to in any aspect of human development in the past present or future.

Get away you.

Anonymous15:
You don't have talk

This document by pepple and crowther ended this debate a long time ago.
Dr koeller burried it.

Even your baikie in perhaps the only research he put effort in showed the counting system, and you're bringing the captain of a ship who's only duty post is the Atlantic ocean.

Come, abulo, I have supported my already true notion with pepple, crowther, koeller (a German) baikie (an English)
That is 4 people.
Bring four people who worked in Bonny and not some slave vessel transporter.

Pepple told Baike that he and his Bonny people came from Igbo land.

How do you reconcile this with your claims here?
Or you want to develop selective amnesia on that very important information

Okay. Your argument is that they were Ijaw speaking when Baike met them? This is doubtful considering that CMS based the Igbo union Bible on Bonny dialect, but even if in the slightest means, that we accept this.
It would only prove that they were Igbos who switched to Ijaw language and later switched back to Igbo language they currently speak today.

And again I ask you, how does the above help your argument?

Anonymous15:
Wait o, Igboid, you brought the account of a slave captain who's only route is the sea and his ship.
Perhaps in relation with the slaves on board who were igbos you brought an account from a slave captain.
I thought you were bright.
Please tell your other more brilliant friends in your group chat to help you.
I'm showing you Dr baikie (even though not always correct) and you're showing me a slave captain.
Get out of here.
Atleast tell Ekealterego and 9pluto and the rest, don't know their godforsaken monicker to help you.

You are mad.
That number system is what is still used in Bonny and Opobo till today, which is why you desperados want to change the Igbo language there.
So you know that Baike is not always right?
Could this be because he specifically stated that Bonny people came from Igboland?
So you pick and choose what aspect of his write up to believe?

Now let's be objective.

Baike number system doesn't correspond with the Ndoki number system currently used in Bonny and Opobo today

But Crows own corresponds with it. So we know who was right and who was wrong between the both.

Additionally, the missionaries had already also written the first Igbo Bible using the Bonny Igbo dialect. So we know that as of that time , Bonny was using Igbo language too.

At best, we can say that Baike made a mistake with his numbers.
But if we are to accept Baike as infallible, then we must accept his statement that Bonny people including Pepple came from Igboland.
If we accept this, then we can project that maybe at the point Baike visited, Bonny people who were originally Igbo had switched to using Ijaw numbering system which Baike observed, but after a few decades, the people had reconnected to their original Igbo language and it's number system, which remains in use today.

So yes. I don't see how Baike account helps your course, seeing as Bonny is Igbo speaking today. Baike report already established that they were of Igbo origin, even if they were speaking Ijaw at the time Baike met them (which I by the way doubt, but nevertheless just running along with your Hypothesis) it doesn't change the fact that they were of Igbo origin and are today Igbo speaking.

Head or tail bro, you lose.

Christistruth00:
Even today in Igboland many Preachers use interpreters every Sunday


The Yoruba Speaking Itsekiri had been interacting and Trading with Igbos for Centuries , interpreters were not a Problem

No such Yoruba speaking Itsekiris was needed by CMS to bring the gospel to Igboland, not when they have brilliant and capable Igbo slaves from Sierra Leone to do the job.

Christistruth00:
Even today in Igboland many Preachers use interpreters every Sunday

Crowther never preached in Igboland.

Taylor and Simon Jonas did the preaching.

No need using an interpreter when you have capable hands that can do the work directly.
It's common sense.
Crowther was more of an administrative officer in Igboland for CMS.
The preaching and interactions with the locals were undertaken by Igbo slaves in Jonas and Taylor.

You lots are just suffering from inferiority complex, trying to assign to yourself a stupid tag of bringer of civilization to Ndiigbo.

Are you lots okay at all?

Anonymous15:
Bonny count in IGBO numbers?
Show us proof.

This screenshot on baikie's Bonny numbering SYSTEM reeks of ijoh.
Zoom it and see it yourself.
That is my proof.
Look downwards, they call fire "fene" we do same
Water is mingi, in my tribe Nembe we say mindi
House is Wari, we also say Wari.

And when we knock on the door we say wari'o the house owner will say suo'o

Now lieng smelling landgrabbing buffalo,
Show me your own proof!

Bonny numbering system by captain Crow.

Zoom and view yourself.

christistruth01:
It was Ajayi Crowther who took Taylor to Onitsha after Crowther went to Preach there years earlier
The Yoruba speaking Itsekiri had been interacting and trading with Igbos for Centuries so finding interpreters wasn't even a Problem

Crowther is a Yoruba man.
He can't preach to a people who doesn't understand him.
Stop being unreasonable.
Crowther was a mere figure head of the church.
As far as bringing gospel to Igboland is concerned ( and by this I meant interactions with the villagers), Crowther was as Useless as P in Psychology.
Anyone else could have done the administrative duties he was doing.
By the way, Crowther and Taylor were both working for CMS, yeah, by the ranking within the organization, Crowther was higher ranked,but Taylor wasn't Crowther employee, they were both working for the CMS, with Crowther working as more of an administrative officer, while Taylor with Simon Jonas were the foot soldiers, who thanks to their Igbo language can actually interact with Igbos in Aboh and Onitsha. So I don't get were you got the idea that Taylor was Crowther handbag.

Development of the Onitsha Mission

"But to return to the work at Onitsha. The Rev. Taylor found himself busy preaching, teaching, visiting, building, healing, settling quarrels, studying the language and writing his journals. As already indicated, Taylor was helped in his pastoral work by Simon Jonas, the Catechist; there were also three Sierra Leone settlers in Onitsha who had come as traders, and along with other merchants resided at Laird's Port. (At this time Onitsha Waterside was known as Laird's Port.) This trading community gave much support to the missionaries. Taylor's first Sunday at Onitsha fell on August 2, 1857. He indeed felt that he was in a strange land, albeit the land of his ancestors: during the morning service his congregation numbered between 200 and 400, half-dressed men and women and naked boys and girls. The Sierra Leone traders from Laird's Port joined in the service and in singing the hymn "Jesus shall reign where'er the sun." Another service was held in the afternoon: to quote from Taylor's diary, "at half-past four p.m. I went to the King's Yard for Service... .His Majesty, King Akazua, with his captains and chiefs, were present. There were also present from 500 to 600 souls, all of whom behaved well... .The children laughed when we knelt down to pray." But "the conduct of the adults, on this occasion, was as orderly as one could wish, and they seemed much pleased with the attention given to their immortal interests."

ba7man:
When gbege burst, na who dey lock shop, carry load run go village, na him be coloniser??

And nope.
Bishop Ajayi crowther was never an Igbo speaker.
I'm yet to see any journal to suggest that Crowther could speak Igbo.

It was Simon Jonas who interpreted everything in Igbo to Obi Ossai of Aboh.
Ajayi crowther was a mere figure head in CMS gospel to Igboland.
You could easily have replaced him with someone from Kuvikiland and there wouldn't be a difference, because he never spoke the native Igbo language, and like the white missionaries, depended on Igbo slaves of Sierra Leone origin for interpretation of Igbo and all ground works involved in bringing gospel to Igbo speaking people.

It's madness and foolishness to suggest that Crowther produced written Igbo language.
He was a mere supervisor appointed by the church.

Taylor and Simon both of who were Igbo slaves of Sierra Leone origin brought the gospel to Igboland. Not one non Igbo speaking Crowther.

Please, It was Simon Jonas, an Igbo slave from Sierra Leone, that together with Schön a colonial missionary that brought the gospel to Igboland for the first time.
Precisely in today Aboh in Delta State.


"This gentleman read the Sermon on the Mount to the King. According to the journal of Schon and Crowther. "Obi was uncommonly taken with this. That a white man could read and write was a matter of course; but that a black man--an Ibo man--should know these wonderful things...was more than he could ever have anticipated." It was indeed at Obi's insistence that Simon Jonas was left behind at Aboh where he remained to preach the Gospel and expound the mysteries of the written word, while the rest of the expedition proceeded to Iddah".
http://anglicanhistory.org/africa/ng/dike_origins1957.html

Putindbutt:
Alabo7978 provided earlier document showing counting system in Bonny which was proven to correspond with the Kalabari dialects. Your tactics at shouting down on opposing views is a bit too stale.

You are a joke.
Bonny count in Igbo numbers today, and we had provided evidence that the counting was same as in today in the past.
There is basically nothing to shut down.

gentiles:
He actually married 2 old and ugly women. Very disgusting, Spits!

He is not handsome. What right does he have to demand for beautiful wife?

cheruv:
The dwarves were part of the pygmy race that inhabited the forests of central Afrịka from the Niger down to the Kongo river.
The Igbo name, àkà is a derivative of their own name, Baka which they answer till this day

Interesting.
I searched it and it turns out the Pygmy's were actually called Aka or Baka.
Looks like we assimilated them.

bomb24:
K tnx for this.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ikot-Abasi

You can read up on Ikot Abasi here.

The Ijaws had it so good in the immediate post civil war era.
Anything they wanted, the Hausa Fulanis granted them for their role in helping them defeat Biafra.
That was how Opobo moved from Akwaibom to old Rivers State controlled by Ijaws through boundary adjustment.
I bet this was part of their long term plan to claim the Island.
Because I think if Opobo remained in Akwaibom, we wouldn't be having all these argument about Opobo as those lots in Akwaibom are not land grabbers like the Izons.

bomb24:
Mazi Igboid i just saw an information on wikipedia that part of opobo is carved into akwa ibom how true is this?

Opobo used to be in same province with parts of Akwaibom in the old Eastern region.
The past of Opobo Kingdom in Akwaibom is Ikot Abasi.

Like we said, Opobo and most parts of riverine Rivers State of today were originally peopled by a people you can best describe as Ibibiod people.
They are still same people in Ogbia, Abuloma,Andoni, Ibeno, Eastern Obolo and Ikot Abasi of today. Jaja drove them off OPOBO to found the kingdom.
Ikot Abasi people are Ibibiod speakers, even though the Igbo imprints are obvious there.
For example you see places like Ikpa-Ibekwe there.
As the natives are non Igboid speakers now, I think we should let them be.

Opobo was ceded to Rivers State in 1970 I think, before then, Opobo kingdom, consisting of Opobo and Ikot Abasi was part of old South Eastern state(old Cross River) a bit further down the time line, they were in Calabar province of the Eastern region and not in Portharcourt province.

oyatz:
Languages aren't what determine who owns territories.
The German Language is spoken in more than 6 European countries and Arabic is spoken as first languages in many countries.



The two primary determining factors on the ownership of territories are ;

1) The political authority over the territories.







2) The peoples: In cases of referendum, referendum will only be conducted on territories where their people as represented by their political authorities demand for it.

OfoIgbo.
Please pay this Yoruba man no attention.
He is hell bent on derailing this topic.
Don't reply him.
Just ignore him like I did.

OfoIgbo:
Igboid nwanne mmadu. These niggaz are headed nowhere with their revisionism attempts.

If Baikie is his authority on Bonny, well, he has now been given Baikie's take on the first indigenes of Ubani. Umu Igbo obviously.

They know the truth.
They are just being dishonest, mischievous and demonic.
It doesn't make sense.
Why claim a people who don't speak your language?
That's madness.
This is also my take on any Igbo claim on Eleme.
It doesn't make sense.


How these Izons must be wishing that these colonial records could have easily been burnt .

OfoIgbo:
Alabo, thanks for falling into my trap.

Now I have attached a piece wherein Dr. Baikie made it quite clear, the ancestry of Bonny indigenes. I hope this will clear all doubt, especially as you want to rely on the Baikie name.

You have finished him.
In mortal combat, this is brutality and fatality all rolled into one and delivered with a dose of venom.

Igboid:
See list of numbers in Bonny as recorded by captain Crow.

Do they look Ijaw to you?

Notice the number system Captain Crow recorded in Bonny differ from those of Isu in terms of number "One".

In Isu dialect that modern standard written Igbo drew alot from, "One" is called "Otu".
In Onitsha, Anioma and Anambra, One is "Ofu".
In parts of Abia and Ebonyi and Imo, One is "Nnaa".
Ndoki are the only Igbos that call one "Oli".

Notice that the one in Bonny Igbo was "Oli" written as "Oly".
Which proves our point that the influence of Igbo slaves in Bonny was grossly exaggerated by latter day Ijaw nationalists like Alagoa, in order to bury the Indigenous presence of Ndoki in Bonny, and present Igbo language presence in Bonny as the result of Igbo slaves in the Island.

But in truth, if the Igbo language in Bonny is as a result of Igbo slaves there, the Igbo dialect used in Bonny should be Isu, who formed bulk of Igbo slaves, and not the Ndoki dialect we see in Bonny today and indeed in the past, as recorded by captain Crow.

I just had to re emphasize this.

Ekealterego:
Still pirates? Some things never change.

Yes o!
People never change.
Which is why the white man doesn't joke with history.
To understand a people, you need to study and understand their history.

Humans are creatures of habit. We don't change.

See list of numbers in Bonny as recorded by captain Crow.

Do they look Ijaw to you?

Alabo7978:
You see your life? I have shown you documents and you want to "lecture" by telling me useless stories.
Below are screenshots of Dr baikie and how the OKOLOMA (bonny) people count
Ngee
Nme
Tere
Ini
Sono
Sonie
Sonoma
Inine
Etc

How the Nembeians and other ijoh count
Kio
Mai
Tarai
Ini
Sono
Sonie
Sonomai
Inine
Etc

How the igbos count
Otu
Abuo
Ator
Ano
Ise
ishi
Asa
Asato
Etc

But ofoigbo is trying to tell me Bonny is Igbo and not ijo.
Look at that screen shot(I typed it out so you won't claim you didn't see it)
Ok, listen to your logic, you earlier said OKOLOMA IS IGBO, and that it is the same as OKOLOMA in ndoki land

I later opened your eyes and we now see that the ibos called it OKOLOBA
Now you're dancing to another direction.

Now if you claim it is the same, why did the igbos call Bonny "okoloBA"

Lies full your blood too much
God forbid.

This is not Baike work.
Stop being silly.

Bonny people speak Igbo as we type, and still use Igbo counting system they have always used.

Izons still doing pirate activities in Bonny Waters in 21st century.
Somethings never change. The more they change, the more they stay the same.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://m.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3Dz2DjqkDmFjo&ved=2ahUKEwix_v76gMX0AhX8kokEHVowCdYQtwJ6BAgdEAI&usg=AOvVaw0GCDZZ7p3UeAaSRJ5EyB6W

JANK23H:
I have modified the comment you quoted initially.From the map the Ijaws dominated those areas.In all of Pereira's account.No mention of Igbos,Ibo or Ebeou was made along the coast.

Now that I think of it.
Your post only proved that Ijaws from Delta (Escravos/Forcardos) area floated around the Eastern coasts as pirates, terrorizing all, but were never linked to Bonny main town itself.
I think Ekealterago made earlier posts on this.
Nnaa, can you repost them.
The part where Ijaw pirate activities in these coastal Waters were highlighted.

Even today, Izons still terrorize these Eastern coasts as pirates.
I watched a video where Bonny people were crying over Izons from Bayelsa pirate activities in their waters.

Ekealterego:
We have trashed Eleme long ago. Although they are a mixture of Aro and Ogoni people, we can't say they are Igbo, although their names are a mixture of Igbos and Aros even today. They used to be called "Mbolli" on pre-colonial and even colonial records.
This is the reason why they don't also like being called or want to identify with Ogoni.

We can't say they are Igbos, except maybe those who can still accurately map their family trees and want to identify. We trying to force it on them, will make us no different from Ijaw landgrabbing.

An important element is the language.

Yes.
It will be fraudulent to call Eleme Igbo.
A people who speaks an alien language no Igbo understands.
They will be like a fish on dry land in Igbo meetings being held in central Igbo language.
We can't be like Binis, Ijaw and Igala land grabbers using dubious history to lay claim to a people who speak different language from them, claiming that language doesn't matter, while at same time forcing down their language on obviously Igbo speaking people.
Ijaws are doing this in Opobo and Bonny, Binis are doing it in Igbanke, Igalas are doing it to Indigenous Igbo speaking groups in Kogi state.

JANK23H:
I have modified the comment you quoted initially.From the map the Ijaws dominated those areas.In all of Pereira's account.No mention of Igbos,Ibo or Ebeou was made along the coast.

Igbos dominated Bonny.
Igbo was the language of communication in Bonny, both the slaves and Leaders in Bonny were Igbos.
We have proven all these with neutral colonial accounts.
Do you have any document that says the same About Ijaw(Jos) in relation to Bonny?

If you do, post them and stop with the deliberate obfuscation of issues.

JANK23H:
Rio de Santa Barbara is in Rivers state Sir.

Still doesn't mention Ijaw presence in Bonny.
So how does it help your claim to Bonny?

JANK23H:
No,he did talk about the "Jos" as the inhabitants around the rivers of Cabo Fermosa in Brass to Rio de Sam Bento,Sant’ Ilefonso,Rio de Santa Barbara and Rio Pequeno.These rivers given Portuguese names extends most parts of the NigerDelta.

These Rivers are restricted to boundaries between Delta and Bayelsa.

Ekealterego:
That was what Horton proposed and when he wrote the British crowns.
He recommended the structure of the army, government and all adapted to their current state and what would suit the people best to make them progress via self-governance.

Ironically, about 80 years later, his works inspired the African leaders like Zik and the rest who pursued independence. His works formed the basis of their agitation for independence and "self-governance.

Unfortunately, unlike Horton, these other leaders were just interested in taking over vast number of people in a Babel like Nigeria, rather than independent self-governance of the various ethnic groups.

Please don't mention Zik.
Zik was a shortsighted fellow who constantly pushed for Nigeria unity.
He had opportunity to push for just Igbo only country before independence but chose otherwise out of hubris.
His speech at the floor of Igbo state Union in Aba in 1949 shows that he knew that Ndiigbo has nothing in common with Yorubas or the North.
He knew we are a Unique nation of our own.

https://www.blackpast.org/global-african-history/1949-nnamdi-azikiwe-address-ibo-people/

JANK23H:
The Portuguese account were written in Portuguese as expected,and so would not have had comparable circulation as that of the British.However,there have been recent translation and reviews of expedition into Africa by Duarte Pacheco Pereira and VALENTIM FERNANDES.

Attached is a screenshot of Captain Pereira's 15th century account,recognizing the presence of the Ijos or Jos as he called them then.Though some of his remarks were not complimentary,this could be attributed his strained relationship with the Ijos(Jos) as against the cordial trade partnership he had with the Benin kingdom.

This account should put to rest the notion that the Ijos were not original inhabitants of the NigerDelta.

Second shot:A Commentary on Duarte Pacheco Pereira's Account of the Lower Guinea Coastlands in his Esmeraldo De Situ Orbis, and on Some Other Early Accounts

First shot:Esmeraldo De Situ Orbis
by Pereira, Duarte Pacheco

I see.
So the original Izons are found in Delta state around Forcardos and Escravos which were basically in old Western region and no way near Eastern Nigeria, let alone having a say in Bonny and Opobo.

Thanks.

Biafrarep:
I doubt we would have been better off without experiencing colonialism. To me, it was a necessary evil.

Enduring civilization doesn't occur in isolation. The Europeans also learned a lot from the Chinese, Japanese and within countries in Europe as well. They perfected some of the inventions from far and near, and their central geographical location made it possible for them to have access to developments in both East and West of the world. These factors gave them a huge headstart into becoming a super power region.

Without them coming to Nigeria, we would have remained enmeshed in primitivity. Would we have developed the capacity to build universities, roads, modern brick houses etc without their expertise in the first place? They even helped to stop anarchy in many places such as North where Fulanis and Kanuris were committing widespread genocide as well as Yorubas who were killing themselves.

Also, countries they stayed the longest in Africa experienced more development and better planning than others, such as South Africa and Zimbabwe among others in South/East Africa.

I'm not saying they had our best interest at heart, on the contrary they actually came to exploit us but in so doing, they brought development!

You might be right.
Ethiopians fought them off, but they are not a first world country today.
Maybe we could have succeeded in making sure they didn't put us together with a people like Yorubas and Hausa-Fulanis who we had and have nothing in common with, other than skin color.