₦airaland Forum

OkaiCorne:
Even the Apostles in the early church knew tithing was before the law. Why wasn't tithing practiced in the early church? Since according to you, Jesus said "it ought to be done"

Why didn't the Apostles go around levying and collecting tithes in the early church? After all, the words of Jesus are not tribalistic na...

Nobody needs to go about levying and collecting tithes, either in Abraham's time, or Malachi's time, pr Peter's time. People simply bring all the tithes to God. Tithes are part of giving, anyone can give them at any time. It does not need special office.
Again, it is not according to me, Jesus said it. These OUGHT TO BE DONE. If you like, tear it out of your own Bible, it remains there. Now, don't bite yourself as you listen to Paul. This is GoodNews.
1Co 16:2  Every Sunday each of you must put aside some money, in proportion to what you have earned, and save it up, so that there will be no need to collect money when I come. 
If i give my 10percent proportion every Sunday, nobody is taking me to hell for it. Let that sink in, sir gentile.

OkaiCorne:
@brocab...you can see how image123 is interpreting the scriptures deceitfully...

What did Abram give a tithe of? Or did the whole story end at Genesis 14 v 20?

For goodness sake from verse 21 onwards...it was very clear what was tithed were from the spoils of war...and NOT ALL THAT ABRAM POSSESSED!

Now should a one-time transaction from war spoils become a basis for giving a tenth of one's monthly income to the church purse? What's the connection here?

The only part of the Bible where tithing became regular (annually) was with the introduction of the Mosaic Law to the Jews...if the Mosaic Law is obsolete...then what's the point tithing regularly?

Stop arguing with your keyboard needlessly. "The point i simply made was that he(Abraham) gave tithes of more than just vegetables and mangoes(agro-produce) that you hitherto assumed that tithes must be." i bet if there was a Scripture that showed Paul gave tithes, you would also resort to this weak plan B that it is a one off. Jacob also benefited from the so called one off. Why was it even recorded again since it is just one time?

OkaiCorne:
Can you show us where the early church gave tithes?

Can you show us where Jesus or the Apostles gave or collected tithes?

This is a ridiculous fallacy that keeps coming up. That something is not recorded is not a guarantee that it did not happen. You are yet to show us where Jesus or any of the apostles condemned tithes or where tithes were not accepted on your basis/definition of ONLY agro-produce.
Joh 20:30  And many other signs truly did Jesus in the presence of his disciples, which are not written in this book: 

Thank God for Matthew 23v23, you would have found it rocket science to believe that Pharisees and scribes gave tithes. Tithing is a form of giving which has several forms. Giving is generally encouraged in the Word of God.

Sorry i've not been chanced to reply your posts. i read them almost immediately on phone, but i have to create time to reply on a computer, so pardon my "latecoming".

OkaiCorne:
And I've asked you why you shave or why you don't see tassels at the corners of your clothes...or why you don't also obey the Mosaic Laws on not planting two different seeds in a garden or not wearing clothes of mixed materials...


What were your answers again? Keep on dribbling yourself.

There is no dribble there, no need for you to take things personal. Simply answer the question you have long avoided. Here it is again. do you show mercy, faith or judgement? Or they are not for you?
i can decide to shave or not shave, it is of no difference or significance to me as pertaining to righteousness BECAUSE i am not under the law.
Same goes for my dress-sense or fashion. Tithes was before the law, hear it until you know it.

When it comes to those requirements I mentioned earlier... you now remember you are not under the Mosaic Law. But when it comes to monetary tithing (which was never in the scriptures)... You are quoting Rev 22 v 19.

i quoted the Bible because you keep dodging and saying this one is for Hebrew, the other one is for Pharisee. All Scripture is God-breathed and for our profit. You can use a knife for your profit or to cut yourself severely. You need to learn to RIGHTLY divide the Word of Truth. The passages i quoted proved very important point; that tithes were given of more than just agro-produce. i never said you should go and do so(you may show me where if i did), or that you will be righteous through it. That is the sense in which the Old covenant is out. Quoting Jesus or quoting the book of Hebrews talking about Abraham has NOTHING o do with Mosaic law, please focus.

And don't tell lies to make your point. Where exactly did I mention Hebrews is not part of the scriptures?

In case you're having a tough time interpreting a simple question I asked you...let me repeat it again.


Why do you think the issue of tithing was raised in Hebrews alone? Why didn't it feature in other gospels written to gentile churches e.g. Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, Corinthians? etc...

I'm waiting for you to dodge this question or feign ignorance..

You said that it is "interesting that tithes featured in the book of Hebrews... But not in other letters addressed to the gentile churches". i'm not a 6year old. What you imply is that i should not consider what is not written to you but what is written to gentiles like you. Tithing was not raised in Hebrews alone BTW. Jesus mentioned it in the gospels a couple of times. It remains an insignificant issue, in case you are expecting it in every book and chapter before you believe it. Again, you have inferred here that Matthew and Luke are not gospels written to you. It's either you do not understand what you are saying or you need to learn more to communicate in the English language.

OkaiCorne:
You are the one dodging an obvious fact here...


What exactly made the Jews to tithe in the first place? Was it not the Mosaic Law that made it compulsory for the Jews to tithe?

Or are you insinuating tithing was not compulsory for the Jews vis-a-vis the discussion between Jesus and the Pharisees in Matthew 23 v 23?

Or did you see anywhere in the Bible Jesus admonished the gentiles to tithe too?

The words of Jesus are not tribalistic. You are seriously dodging here. Address the issues.

brocab:
It doesn't matter how many times the Lord had told us we can't worship Mammon and God at the same time-I have read page after page on this forum from you-and by your fruit it clearly shows your heart is where your treasure is, 6 threescore and 6 in Gold..Solomon's wisdom how to gain large amounts of finances, quickly! {1 Kings 10:1-13; 2 Chronicles 9:1-12}. .
Your arguments is about how you were taught, not by scripture-you are taught to use scriptures like {Matthew 23:23} this doesn't concern your argument, nor does it concern the way the Church nowadays tithe.
If {Matthew 23:23} had any meaning to the Church today, and you were reading your bible then you would know that tithing is not for the gentiles-nor for the Jew's today!
And if you choose to tithe, and not give as Jesus commanded us-then you would know the scriptures, and you will bring your tithes just as the Pharisees brought their tithes of herbs into the storehouse, God granted the farmers with plenty of rain each year, blessing them abundantly, in return-their duty was to feed the poor!
If the Church had focused their thoughts on looking after the poor-as expected-instead of relying on money to build Church buildings, from the four corners of the earth-everybody would know how to accept God-and accept God's Church!
"There wouldn't be starvation, the poorest countries around the world would live for God, We wouldn't need to rely on government support, nor any other support that stands outside the Church-because we will have each other-we would come together and pray in one accord and know God-just the way God had planned us to know Him!
{Matthew 4:8-10} Again, the devil took Him to a very high mountain and showed Him all the kingdoms of the world and their glory. “All this I will give You, he said, “if You will fall down and worship me.” “Away from me, Satan!” Jesus declared. “For it is written: ‘Worship the Lord your God and serve Him only.’”…

Which one is give and which one is tithe? Tithing is a form of giving, what is your problem with words?
Luk_18:12  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.
Heb_7:4  Now consider how great this man was, unto whom even the patriarch Abraham gave the tenth of the spoils.

Like i have said several times. If what we are giving is not tithes, why are you having headaches again?

HardMirror:
lol! You think atheists dont have life values?
When we say life as no purpose, we mean we are inconsequential at a cosmological scale. We dont have what you would call "DIVINE PURPOSE".

Even a serial killer has given his life purpose.

To chase women could be a life purpose.

Anything could be your choice purpose.

We speak against divine purpose. We dont agree that a god has given anyone any special purpose. We choose what we want to do with our lives. Good or bad is a matter of choice and perception.

The BOLD is exactly what i said and know of true atheists, not all these wannabes who want out of life and want to take their frustrations on God at their young age. All the explanation is needless as it is different explanation for each of you as usual. The point remains that atheists have no purpose in life, and you have often confessed on this forum that human life is useless. It seems reasonable that one should change purpose at will and have any foolish self purpose than for Divine purpose to stand. Indeed, you have spiritual problem.The devil has clearly eroded reason. Morality for you is subjective like i usually assert. Your perception can be it is good to kill, tomorrow it can be it is bad. For atheist A, it can be good, for B it can be bad. How convenient and delusional.

OkaiCorne:
Very good... Let's look at the Bible in its entirety.

Can you show us where tithing was practiced in the early church?

Have you done any research on the origin of tithing in the church?

Please also show us where in the Bible Abram gave a tithe of all...

I'm baffled as to how a voluntary one-off transaction from the spoils of war now becomes a basis for giving a tenth of one's monthly income into a church's treasury...

Also looking at Matthew 23 v 23, where you mentioned Jesus said tithing "ought to be done" shows that it was mandatory for the Jews (farmers) who were under the Mosaic Law. Tithing never applied to the gentiles...

do you show mercy, faith or judgement? Or they are not for you? You dodged that artfully. Please answer.
Have you seen where they had their bath in the early church? Do you see where they cooked or where they clapped or beat drums? Does it mean these things must not be done or were not done, in case you did not see it recorded? That something is not recorded does not automaticlly mean it did not happen. That is why i ask you continuously to show us if/where it is condemned.
Joh 21:25  And there are also many other things which Jesus did, the which, if they should be written every one, I suppose that even the world itself could not contain the books that should be written. Amen.

The origin of tithing is seen in the practice of great men like Abraham and Jacob. Any other thing after is mere story.

OkaiCorne:
Where is the Bible verse that states Abraham gave a tithe of all?

We've been through this [url=already]https://www.nairaland.com/113108/truth-pastor-not-tell-tithes/33#70298859
[/url]. And i immediately explained that "The point i simply made was that he gave tithes of more than just vegetables and mangoes(agro-produce) that you hitherto assumed that tithes must be." But seeing you still need it for whatever confidence, here it is. Try not to twist it to say something else.
Gen_14:20  And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he gave him tithes of all.

And my point on tithing was that God demanded tithes in form of agro-produce from the Jews... when He made it mandatory for them to tithe.

Nothing shows that He rejected otherwise. The man in Christ's illustration said he gave tithes of all.
Luk_18:12  I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

You mentioned Jesus said "we ought to tithe"...but you ignored the fact that tithes were done on agro-produce by the Jews back then even when money existed!

For the umpteenth time, we do not give tithes as under the law. Also, there should be no problem with you guys if what we give is not(does not qualify) tithe.

You're also ignoring the fact that when Abram tithed, there were no stipulated rules on tithing, neither was Abram under any form compulsion to tithe... Now that there is a stipulated rule on tithing outlined by God in the Mosaic Laws...why do you want to ignore that?

How can i ignore that when i say that we are in similar condition? We are not under the law as Abraham was not under the law.
Is there anywhere in the Bible God demanded money as tithe?

Please show us where in the Bible Abram gave a tithe of all as opposed to war spoils...

Please show me where i said so. i repeated it several times that i made a point that Abraham's tithe was more than agro-produce. Yet you think i said he gave something opposed to spoils. Are spoils the same as agro-produce or is it the same spelling?

Isn't it interesting that tithes featured in the book of Hebrews... But not in other letters addressed to the gentile churches? e.g. Corinthians, Galatians, Romans, Ephesians...etc

Is it not interesting that the Bible warns not to cut out any scripture. What you are telling me here is that the book of Hebrews is not scriptures for you.
Rev 22:19  And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

Martinez19:
The purpose and meaning of my life is the purpose and meaning I give to it.

How convenient. You want to be some kind of god but you claim to hate and disbelieve the God concept.

JMAN05:
It appears to me that you are missing something. That Jesus while alive was subject to the law of Moses. He hadn't given his body as sacrifice. It was after his death that the law was out of the way as a yardstick for righteousness, not before. So you are right. Jesus didn't condemn tithing while he was yet alive. But when he died, his flesh and blood brought something new. Christ is the end of the law said Rom 10:4, there was a change of the law after Christ's sacrifice, even law on tithing, see Heb 7:11,12 (also compare col 2:15). Does that make any sense to you?

Tithing is not subject to the law as it was before the law, that is the point. The tithing which people say is of the law is not the tithe being practicd today, that is what most of the people aginst tithe say here. So there is absolutely no problem with the tithe given today as it is not even the definition of "tithe under the law".

OkaiCorne:
@image123

Jesus said tithes "ought to be done" and that's for those who were under the Mosaic Law which made tithing OBLIGATORY. Moreover, tithing was never monetary per the requirement of the Mosaic Law.

Using Matthew 23 v 23 as a basis to validate tithing which was at a point in time when the Mosaic Law was still in force clearly contradicts what Paul wrote in 2 Corinthians 9 v 7 (written after the Mosaic Law was fulfilled through the death and ressurection of Jesus)
"Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver"

You cannot say tithing ought to be done when giving must not be done under compulsion under the new covenant.

This in addition to Acts 15 explains why tithing was not practiced in the early church.

Jesus said tithes "ought to be done". He NEVER classified His statement as for only some selected ones. His Words do not pass away. Just the next chapter.
Mat 24:35  Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. 

Tithing was BEFORE the Mosaic law as we have seen from Abraham, it is not subject to Mosaic law. Abraham did not need the Mosaic law to tithe, neither do i. Paul's writings do not supersede the words of Jesus. By the way Paul himself gave under necessity and told people to.
Rom_12:13  Distributing to the necessity of saints; given to hospitality.
He also counted preaching the gospel as a necessity.
1Co_9:16  For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!
And to crown it, tithing does not have to be by compulsion as you imply. Ought as used in Matthew 23 is an indication of what SHOULD be done, not the force you are mistaking it to be. it is right for you to do these, is the simple meaning of what is said.

Again, Acts 15 has nothing to do with tithes. There are a host of other things that christians do asides Acts 15. We should not take only Acts 15 as scriptures and appear blind to other scriptures. Prayer, fellowship, giving are not in Acts 15, yet we do them. Why is it only tithes that you think we should not do after Acts 15? Because you think tithe is under the law, yet it has been clearly shown that it was before the law. Anise and Cummin are not mentioned in the Mosaic law, but the pharisees and scribes tithed of it. Jesus didn't condemn it, instead He mentioned that they ought to do it and not leave the weightier matters. Again, do you show mercy, faith or judgement? Or they are not for you?

OkaiCorne:
You mentioned Abram gave a tithe of all...whereas what he tithed were from the spoils of war. He tithed only once... which was never from his income. Please where was it stated in the Bible that he gave a tithe of all? Please show us the Bible verse.


And by the way, who was tithing mandatory for that they ought to tithe? Wasn't it the Jews?

Gentiles were never under any obligation to tithe... either in the old or new testament.


Please show us where in the Bible Abram gave a tithe of all...as opposed to tithe of war spoils...

The point clearly made was simply that Abraham gave tithes of more than just vegetables and mangoes(agro-produce) that you hitherto assumed that tithes must be." Whether it is recorded once or hundred times is besides the point. Your point was that tithe has to be agro-produce, and i show you someone who gave tithe of non-agroproduce and the Bible calls it TITHE. The Holy Spirit calls it TITHES both in Genesis and in the Hebrews. But you say it cannot be tithe.

Martinez19:
you must be high on spice(k2). Christians, Muslims, Hindus and other religious folks commit suicide. Who told you life is meaningless to atheists? We atheists give our lives meaning. HardMirror, the op of this thread, is an atheist and you see him here encouraging people not to commit suicide, why would he do that if he thinks life is meaningless and not worth living?

What is the meaning and purpose of your life for instance?

HardMirror:
as you can see from comments here over 80% believe in god and most likely christians. You can see their prayers and stuff cant you? Stop being silly

It is a well known fact, suicide is the atheist plan B. Their lives are meaningless and purposeless, fact that they confess to. Anyone can be discouraged or even depressed. That does not equal to suicide or being suicidal which is a hobby and characteristic of the average atheist. Go and learn and observe. Don't fight the facts, and don't commit suicide please.

festwiz:
I like how in your long list of instances, you missed my statement. In case you missed it the first time...

Elijah (I think) was fed by ravens when he was chased by Jezebel. Yet, your god can't drop a grain of bread when you're dying of hunger or thirst, like the malnourished kids in Africa and Asia.

How'd you explain that?

SMH. So you think that your statement is more preeminent than your need to understand why and how prayers usually do not work without works. You must have gnashed your teeth in pain seeing those instances that you hate to see, right? You are more interested in a question and answer session, lol. No problem, Macdonald was very right. i never missed your cherished statement, i simply found it irrelevant in scheme. Nevertheless, seeing you live for it, i will oblige you. As you rightly stated, Elijah was not fed throughout his life by ravens. He was fed by a widow even at some time. At another time by God, at another time had to go without food. Now that is just one out of hundreds of people in the Bible, and clearly it was never something permanaent for him. Neither is there any such promise or plan. So for you to assume that this should be the norm shows the level of daydream you are living in. My God is also recorded to have fed over 5000men so that they won't go home hungry if that makes you happier. There also other testimonies of such miraculous provisions. As you can see, these are not NORMS but miraculous instances. The NORM, the command and the expectation is that we should all work. In fact if you do not work, you should not eat. If you do not like that, too bad for you, you will die of hunger.

HardMirror:
electricity is not a mystery. It is observable, demonstratable, principled and true. God and prayers cannot be demonstrated, follows no true principles that makes them practical. That is why religion permits for so much excuses when it fails. Why does god not heal amputees? Excuses. But you say god answers prayers... more excuses. Not practical, cannot be demonstrated without fail. That is a big difference.
You dont have to understand electricity or technology, it would ALWAYS work, it is absolutely practical. Can be studied, improved on and replicated. Now get your head out of your azz and see the world called reality.

Follow the line of thought duh, except you were not even thinking which would not surprise. You said "if god works, it wont be a mystery to anyone, we would all know God works." If that is a rational statement, it means that if XYZ works, it wont be a mystery to anyone, we would all know XYZ works. Anyone without an obsession disorder about God knows that the statement is senseless. Anything can work and still be a mystery to many. A mystery is simply an event or situation that is difficult to fully understand or explain. While electricity might not be a mystery to a physicist, it may be to some old man illiterate.
On the other hand, SCIENCE is the study of the physical and natural world and phenomena, especially by using systematic observation and experiment. Notice OBSERVATION and EXPERIMENT. Get this into your skull, God is not science. He is a Spirit, not a physical being. He's not subject to science and its obvious definition, neither should prayer which is a clearly spiritual activity. i enjoyed the way you all avoided the instances of answers to prayers given. You wish not to hear it. The demon in you shrieks at the thought. lol

Omooba224:
Sorry for my lack of home training. I agree with you that I am ignorant about how God operates. Can we say the God has interests and biases?. If not why will he chose to answer "some" people's prayers and desires but ignore others because they didn't seek for his mercy?. Who created the "others" in the first place?.
Finally, I admit that you are far above a day dreamer like me.[/

Although you say you are sorry for not being well trained at home, what can be done to your appalling ignorance and lack of exposure? Do you have interests and biases? Of course every living thing should have interest and bias. Do you study any and every course or eat any and every food because you bought them? Is it wrong for you to have preference on which of your more than one networks you use to call or browse? Why then do you fault God of what you do every other day? Also, learn the meaning and usage of words e.g finally. i should not have to spoonfeed you on that as well.

OkaiCorne:
Please where in the Bible was it stated that Abram gave a tithe of all?


You also stated that the Bible mentioned we ought to tithe...now that would be disobedience if people don't tithe right?

Let's not get distracted here. Again, "The point i simply made was that he gave tithes of more than just vegetables and mangoes(agro-produce) that you hitherto assumed that tithes must be."

Jesus mentioned that tithes OUGHT TO BE DONE. He also mentioned to watch and to pray always i.e it ought to be as well. i hope you get the point and correlation as you attempt to go further.

HardMirror:
lol! You mean god listens to you? Fantastic! What was your last discussion with him?
See if god works, it wont be a mystery to anyone, we would all know God works. We were once believers, we have family, friends and neighbours who are believers. Infact we are surrounded by believers. If god works we would see it. God does not work. God could be a tree, elephant, stone, dog, rock, imagination, sun anything cld be called god, they all answer prayers equally cos they are all gods cos we make them god. They all lack the ability to do what our minds can naturally do. It is all in our head that we see good things than come our way as blessings from god. The proof is the fact that all gods even if it is a plastic bottle you worship, all have the same answers to our prayers.

He said that if you do not repent, you will perish. If something works, it will not be a mystery to anyone? What sort of logic is this? Electricity is a mystery to billions, so also is medicine and technology. Why has satan eaten up your brain this way? God Himself said that He is a Spirit, why then do you suppose that you will/should see Him? You can only see His works, e.g you.

festwiz:
So in essence, I have to cook the food 'cause a god won't make it right? So why thank a god for the works of my own hand, since it's evident he can't do something as basic as put food on your table?

Don't spew some crap about "works work, because prayers work".

Elijah (I think) was fed by ravens when he was chased by Jezebel. Yet, your god can't drop a grain of bread when you're dying of hunger or thirst, like the malnourished kids in Africa and Asia.

Shame on your god.

Of course you have to cook, prayer is not for the lazy neither is it an escape route from reality. God made you to work, He Himself works. Only someone as foolish as a person who says there is no God would think otherwise.
Joh_5:17  But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.


God WORKS, Jesus WORKS, who are you? God was working for six days before He rested. He was not praying.
2Th_3:10  For even when we were with you, this we commanded you, that if any would not work, neither should he eat.

Here again, you see the command to WORK. i will lecture you and write a textbook for free on how the Bible tells us to work. We were made/created to work. If someone told you otherwise, he saw your gullibility and illiteracy because there is no reason for anyone who can read not to read a Bible. Jesus Christ did not give you a brain and a hands for you not to work. He Himself prepared His meals, and sent the disciples to make ready. He wasn't praying food into existence as a daily practice. i'll help cure your some of your lack of knowledge by giving you four instances of prayer and works. i have more if time permits, though like Macdonald said, "To him who does not love the truth, to give truth to him is only to give him more multiplied reasons for misinterpretation".
INSTANCE 1.
i have said this one before and if mirrormirror or what is his name has retentive memory, he will recall. i had hyperopia. The doctor could do nothing about it than explain it and recommend glasses to help. i went to see him, the optician/hospital(works). i paid for the services and the recommended glasses(works. i also went to pray. God answered before the glasses was ready. i have the glasses at home, i've never used it as i do not need to. i did not take one tablet for it. So how would some thief somewhere that has no key convince me that the door i opened and entered has no key. Just say you don't have and have never seen the key. We are not that impoverished.

INSTANCE 2.
Somebody had diabetes. Visible, clear, and in its terrible stage if you've seen it before. He was taken to the hospital and given all the treatments and appointments(works). We prayed for him, not hearsay, it's what i was part of. The next week, no trace, no trace of diabetes. Till today, no trace, i still saw him two days ago. Some of you think works has to be mutually exclusive to prayer or faith yet the Bible says no such thing.

INSTANCE 3.
i have carefully picked the instances to be varied, showing you it is not fluke or chance. There are more testimonies like i said earlier. All the instances given are not hearsay BTW.
So this is a failing marriage. Husband is already gone. He has moved out, He did not even send out the woman in this case, He moved out for her and the children. Communications, counsellings, meetings(WORKS) have been done to and with both parties to no avail. For months. He's even barred phone numbers. Now we prayed less than an hour. One of us goes to see the husband(note that this is not the first person or only person to have done this). By weekend, they are back together. How will you tell such a people all these rubbish on this thread? You will end up making a bigger fool of your self than stated in the Psalms.

INSTANCE 4.
A student like most of you. More brilliant i believe. He wrote the previous utme and post utme, scored very high, maybe like 280 around that. No admission. The next year, he's desperate. His parents advice him to change to a 'lesser' school and a 'lesser' course as solution. All these are works BTW. In this process, he draws closer to God as it were, more prayer and regular in church etc. Nobody says don't work, come and pray, pray more and fast etc. Nobody told him all that. Instead, we labasted him for choosing a lower or less competitive course and school. But since its the parents decision and the parents don't come to church, there is little we can do than to reach a consensus. We were able to change the school, then remove EDU from the course, though it's not the initial course he wished to study but a more difficult utme combination as this one involves more calculations. But the parents were looking at cut-off marks issue. So he did basically the same preparations and prayers. This time, he scores much higher. So first time with works alone, he scored around 280, second time works and prayers, he scored over 320. He's done the post utme and also done very well. And if everything goes well, should be admitted. How do you tell me or tell this boy not to pray? Prayers obviously worked better for him. He did not stop working or wait for a dream telling him answers.

Omooba224:
See the one with University answer! What he is trying to tell a blockheaded individual like you is that if you like pray from today till next year, your prayer doesn't work. Only your work works

You seem to be suffering from a lot of ignorance and a lack of proper home training and exposure. The President does not have to listen to every yearn and wish, even if it is coming from his wife. Not to mention God having to listen to people who are not His children. That God does not listen to you does not mean that He does not listen to others. That your key does not open the door of our house does not mean that no other key can. If you pray from today till you die, your prayers are not likely to work except you are asking for forgiveness and mercy. You are not me, don't day dream.

OkaiCorne:
1) So you mean that Abram giving a tithe of war spoils automatically means giving a tithe of all he had? Did he also tithe from his personal income?

Ask the Bible that recorded that he gave tithes of all. The point i simply made was that he gave tithes of more than just vegetables and mangoes(agro-produce) that you hitherto assumed that tithes must be.

2) So the Bible states Jacob and Abraham are not Jews? This is really interesting...

What is interesting is that you do not know. It is common knowledge that jews are descendants of Israel. Jacob and Abraham were not descendants of Israel were they? i would be gracious enough to enlighten you anyway.
Jews are (people of Judea). This name was properly applied to a member of the kingdom of Judah after the separation of the ten tribes. The term first makes its appearance just before the captivity of the ten tribes. 2Kings16:6. After the return, the word received a larger application.
Partly from the predominance of the members of the old kingdom of Judah among those who returned to Palestine, partly from the identification of Judah

3) Circumcision, burnt offerings and fruit offerings also preceded the Law... What's the basis for not doing these but sticking to tithing?

Bear in mind that male circumcision is done these days on health grounds with no spiritual connotations...

Now you know that tithing precedes the law, GOOD of you, very good. Please don't go back again to assuming otherwise. Circumcision, burnt offerings and fruit offerings can be done by anyone for any reason. Nobody is hindered from doing so if you so desire. So stop condemning people for guilt tripping people that for any reason do them. Once you have purpose driven life, and a good purpose for that matter, i say FIRE ON. i clearly remember incidences when members of our little church have offered fruits to the church and no one batted an eyelid.

brocab:
You keep on talking that tithing ought to be done, but you haven't produce the scripture to back up your theory.

You know the scripture and you already quoted it. Why are you asking for it again? Do you think that the many times it is quoted is what matters or knowing the truth? Well, it is Matthew 23:23 in case you somehow do not still get it.

The law on tithing, was the Mosaic law! Which today it doesn't exist, not in Israel..nor does the old tithing law-exist with you, not your Church, in this day and age name any Church that actually tithes Old testament of herbs, stocks crops, and mechanise yearly..

How is tithing Mosaic and not existing when Jesus clearly said that mercy and faith are weightier parts of that said law? If you say that tithes today is not Mosaic in pattern, what exactly is your problem when people give it? Your confusions are indeed profound.

The Pharisees asked Jesus do we pay taxes, Jesus said to them, “give back to Caesar what is Caesar’s, and to God what is God’s.
This is simple enough to understand-Render your tax money to the Government, render our flesh back to God..

Can we do same today, or it is only pharisees and hypocrites that should?

You claim you are not under the law to tithe-you are deafeningly under Church law every week, they preach tithing, they practice tithing, you sit under them and tithe, practicing tithing the way they teach tithing!
I don't care if you refuse the Word of God-it's your choice, {The Word of God is not against tithing itself' it's against the corruption the Church brings against tithing for financial gain}

If your church preaches tithing every week, mine does not. So stop using your church to make hasty generalisations. The Word of God does not say that we should not tithe, so i do not refuse it. You are not the Word of God or are you?

And sadly you are in amongst them, joining in their craftiness against the Word of God. Against God's people-preaching the unbiblical doctrines, praying you will become richer, then you already are through the greed you and your Church have.
{1 Timothy 6:3-5} "If anyone teaches otherwise and does not consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which accords with godliness, he is proud, knowing nothing, but is obsessed with disputes and arguments over words, from which come envy, strife, reviling, evil suspicions, useless wranglings of men of corrupt minds and destitute of the truth, who suppose that godliness is a means of gain. From such withdraw yourself.

i wish you would listen attentively to the verse you just quoted. It says to "consent to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ". i clearly remember Him saying that tithes OUGHT TO BE DONE, and that faith, mercy and judgement should not be left undone. i folow Him, not you. Hear another one, maybe you may change.
1Jn 2:6  He that saith he abideth in him ought himself also so to walk, even as he walked. 

I think this say's it all, Churches asking for money each week in tithes, it is this that causes disputes amongst us, and uses godliness for their means to gain.
{This is enough for me, to realise the Church isn't interested what God said: their focus is all about the cash, time and time again more evidence is flying in all direction, the Church is not old news, it continual's its rampage all over the world}
God's people are sick, they are sick of Churches ripping them off, the Church is no-longer a safe haven for the lost sheep, the broken hearted, the poor, the hungry. Sad isn't it?
{Ezekiel 34:1-6} ‘Thus says the Lord God to the shepherds: “Woe to the shepherds of Israel who feed themselves! Should not the shepherds feed the flocks?
They eat the fat and clothe themselves with the wool; they slaughter the fatlings, but they do not feed the flock. The weak they have not strengthened, nor have they healed those who were sick, nor bound up the broken, nor brought back what was driven away, nor sought what was lost; but with force and cruelty they have ruled them. So they were scattered because there was no shepherd; and they became food for all the beasts of the field when they were scattered.
My sheep wandered through all the mountains, and on every high hill; yes, My flock was scattered over the whole face of the earth, and no one was seeking or searching for them.
Even thru Jesus said: withdraw ourselves-obviously He is warning us-and I take this into account the tares among the wheat are plenty, and the Word of God is known to the believers that realise-many are called, but few are chosen..I don't know about you, but I seek the Lord as much as I can, and I believe His Word, well enough to obey His commands, there is no way do I want to believe anything I hear without testing the Word of God..

It does not have to cause disputes for you, just follow Jesus and please Him more by living a victorious life would be a better option. If you have a problem with your church or with some denominations, don't hang it on the tithes. Asides tithes, i want to guess that those denominations also preach prosperity and healing. Why not react by deciding to live in penury and sickness, why is it only tithe you choose to abstain from? Because of convenience i guess. Think it through and face the message, not the messenger.

HardMirror:
To pass exams you would be told not just to pray but study hard.

You have a medical situation, you are adviced to go to the hospital not just pray.

To be successful in business or career you dont just pray, you work.


Interestingly, those who are hard working, smart and focused would succeed even without praying, but someone who only prays but does not work would never succeed.


Why is this?

Errmmm, because God rewards the WORK of our hands, duh. God Himself works and created us to work. Prayer is spiritual activity, work is physical. It is as simple as knowing the difference between physical and spiritual. Like you won't pray your food, you have to cook it and eat it, this is basic. Why do you often ask kindergaten questions?

HardMirror:
Most times when we talk about suicide or discuss people who committed suicide, we often blame them or label them cowards. It is also popular to hear people say those who commit suicide would end up in hell as punishment.

Let us not be quick to judge those who commit suicide.

Depression is real and it can be very overwhelming.
Truth is it hurts when a loved one takes his/her life but we should not be quick to use that single act to judge such people.


I have suffered depressing at several points of my life and i understand how it can be. It only ends in suicide when:

1. You keep to yourself: share the problem with friends.
2. Have close friends and family members that you can share your burdens with.
3. Look at the big picture. Your problem most times is not as bad as you think. Ask yourself 'What is the worst thing that would happen?'
Then ask yourself aint there people in worse situations?
4. Laugh at yourself and call yourself stvpid. yeah we all very stvpid. You broke? Damn! Laugh at yourself. Your bf/gf just broke up with you? Laugh! In serious debt? Laugh!
5. Consult with others on the problem, get different perspectives even if you dont let them know you are the one in the situation


Have you ever had suicidal thoughts? Share with us here

Suicide is like the atheist normal plan B. Don't commit suicide please.

brocab:
Where did Jesus say tithes ought be done..
{Matthew 23:23} Hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone!
So does this mean tithers are hypocrites?
It is absolutely clear that {Matthew 23:23} is the “scribes and Pharisees”! “You” neither refers to Jesus’ disciples nor to the church! The scribes and Pharisees were the ones sitting in Moses’ seat –not his disciples. They were the ones interpreting the Law –not his disciples.
“Hypocrites”: The scribes and Pharisees are the hypocrites --not Jesus’ disciples. They were the ones who had exaggerated the Law to make it a burden. And they were ones who refused to obey the laws they had exaggerated! Jesus is not disciplining his disciples!
“For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cumin …” The “you” is still the scribes and Pharisees from “woe is you scribes and Pharisees”! As interpreters of the Law they had exaggerated it to include ordinary garden spices which the Law had never included.
The Mishnah and Talmud, not the Bible, defined tithes as "everything eatable, everything that was stored up or that grew out of the earth.”
The Pharisees prided themselves with scrupulous obedience to circumcision, Sabbath-keeping and tithing. They wanted the Jews to think that they could observe these three rites even better than what was expected of the Law. Meticulously counting micro-small spice seeds was their way of boasting.

i am not under the law, neither are you. So stop this obsession about the law. The Bible does not in any place talk about or divide tithe into law, it simply calls/qualifies it tithe, both before and during the law. And all your talk about hypocrites makes no sense because many of Jesus important messages were equally addressed to Pharisees and their likes like John 3v16 and Render to God the things that are God's. It will be ignorant if not myopic to think in this way you are attempting to and say it does not apply to all. Jesus never said it ought to be done by hypocrites, He simply stated that it ought to be done.

While quoting this very text to prove that Jesus taught tithing to the Church, there is probably no church on earth which tells its members to literally bring tithes of garden spices.

“And [you] have omitted the weightier matters of the law -- judgment, mercy, and faith.”
Jesus is telling the scribes and Pharisees that judgment, mercy and faith” are more important “matters of the law” than is tithing.
It is incredible how often Christian tithe-teachers quote this verse and omit “of the law.” They then tell us that Jesus taught tithing and omit the historical context of the verse, the chapter and the covenant.
In fact, ALL of Matthew 22 and 23 is in the context of “matters of the law.” The Herodians had asked, "Is it lawful to give tribute to Caesar, or not?" {Matt. 22:17}
In the next discussion Jesus rebuked the Sadducees by quoting from the law {Matt. 22:32, Exod. 3:6} next, one of the Pharisees asked, "Master, which is the great commandment in the law?" {Matt. 22:36}
{Matthew 23}" continues the discussion of “matters of the law.”
“These you ought to have done, without leaving the other undone.” Again I have never heard of a church which required its tithers to bring tithes “of mint and anise and cumin” and demand that they “ought to have done” so in obedience to Jesus’ command in {Matthew 23:23}
If this verse is supposed to be interpreted as Jesus’ command for Christians to tithe money (which the text does not clearly state) then it should also be interpreted as Jesus’ command for the church to tithe garden spices according to the Law (which the text does clearly state).
When Jesus said in {verse 23}"You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former," he was re-enforcing for Jews, not the moral law which is eternal, but the current interpretation of the ordinances of the ceremonial law of the Old Covenant.

You have just opined that judgment, mercy, and faith are of the law all in your bid to dissuade people from tithing. i will continue to do justice, mercy, faith and to tithe as long as God grants me life. He has in no place said it should stop. People gave tithes of all that they possessed. i will give tithes of what i possess too. If God does not like it, He will say. Your opinions are inconsequential.

In fact, Jesus could not have told Gentile Christians “These you ought to have done” because Gentiles were not allowed to bring tithes and tithes would not have been accepted even it they attempted to bring them! In order to be legitimate, tithes must only come from Israelites and only from inside Israel!

i guess you would have personally gone to stop them if they did. A centurion built a synagogue, you think they would stop him from giving tithe. smh.

Jesus only commanded Jews to observe the Mosaic Law and present themselves to the priests. He did not command non-Jews to do this because their lives were not governed by the Mosaic Law.
It was not possible under the Law for non-Jews to be circumcised or tithe.
Again I am not expecting you to study the truth-I am not expecting you to believe in the truth-but if you are willing the truth is here if you need it..

Glory be to God, i am not under the law. Your point is mute.

I understand-we were all taught about tithing, we were deceived too, but don't worry we are brothers supporting brothers, we have nothing against you personally, but the Word of God's there if you are seeking.

i was not taught the way you were, sorry. The Word of God says tithing ought to be done, i do it. Simples. It does not bring the condemnation of God for i am justified by faith not by works.

OkaiCorne:
1) The man who gave tithes "of all"... was he a Jew or a Gentile?

2) Was there any record of a non-Jew in the entire bible that gave tithes before, during or after the law

3) There are numerous instructions from God in addition to tithing such as;
a) Not shaving beards
b) Not wearing mixed clothing materials
c) Not planting two different kinds of seeds in the garden
d) Sewing tassels at the corners of one's garment...

What is the basis for accepting tithing but not adhering to these?

1. i can't say, his name is Abram. Why do you ask?

2. Yes, Abraham and Jacob for instance. Why?

3. Tithing was before the law.There was no instructions like the ones you recalled before the first recorded tithe. What is your point again?

OkaiCorne:
Oga... I have read the whole bible, and I have not seen anywhere it was stated that non-Jews tithed or were told to tithe. Can you show us any in your bible?

You also asked where God never required money as tithe.... now please read Deuteronomy 14 v 22-29 where instructions on tithing were clearly spelt out... was it agro-produce or money that was tithed?

I'm a fellow man like you, not your oga. The Bible is written to all from God, it is not for any one tribe. There's no single verse in the Bible that says not to tithe.
The Bible is not 8verses but 66books. Inside it, we see a man give tithes of all.

brocab:
Where did Jesus say, tithing ought to be done? It would be hypocritical of Jesus because He didn't tithe, not even today in Israel the Jews pay tithes.

In the Bible.

Don't you understand the Word of God, you have no idea how to be a giver-you give as little as 10%-a tithers greed! Tithers are deceived by Churches of religious traditions, rules and regulations!

i give more than 10percent. You are supposing yet again, don't be presumptuous.

I realise I am wasting my time-you don't tithe like the bible explained tithing-you are so caught with self-righteous, the Word of God won't stop you from spreading lies into existence.

What makes you think that you are wasting your life?

The Church today is focused on religious traditions' rules and regulations" It was a custom, and it was paid in agreement with God-tithes for a price-God made a deal with the farmers, He said: you supply My people, I will supply Rain.

Are you here to discuss the church? What church, your own or mine or Christ's?

What tithing deal did He make with the Church today! None! 10% has nothing to do with us-.If you choose to tithe, do it in secret, become a Pharisee "tithe herbs? Shut up the kingdom of heaven against men; devour widows.
{Mark 12:39} One poor widow came and threw in two mites.
Because the widow was devoured by a Pharisee, the Pharisee knew she needed help-he took advantage of her poorness, given her his long prayer, she believed if she gives everything to the temple, God will bless her more then the others abundantly! This proves the Church is full of Pharisees in this day and age-it proves Jesus's disciples are separated from the rest of the world..

Sincerely, you lost me here, i don't understand what you are saying.

I even remember a tither told me, if they tithe more to God, God will bless them more abundantly, much more then a non tither-this is taught by false teachings!
But sadly-tithers are taught by their fathers and the fathers before them, pastors that lived a prosperous life style, while the world around them-continualed to stay poor, hungry and unclothed, 'tithers actually believe God blesses them abundantly through works, in tithes..
And I will like to add-this is not scriptural, everybody is equal to God, He said: seek His kingdom-He already knows our every need. To be truthful we need God-nothing else matters-I don't tithe, because it is unbiblical to tithe, but 'what is biblical, I give, and I am blessed equally.

Well, i am not guided by what anyone told you personally. i am guided by Jesus who said that tithes ought to be done. There are many roads to being blessed BTW. And there are many definitions of BLESSED too.

OkaiCorne:
Have you read Acts 15 to find out if tithing applies to the gentiles too?

Can you also show us where God asked for tithes to be paid monetarily like the church is doing today?

Have you bothered to read the whole Bible instead? There are a whole lot of things not mentioned in Acts 15 which we do if we make Acts 15 the standard. Do you pray, fellowship with other believers or sing? Is there any place God said not to tithe with money? If tithe using money is not tithe, what then is the headache?

OkaiCorne:
Any biblical example of non-Jews that tithed?

Any biblical example where tithing is frowned at, or rejected?