₦airaland Forum

MarkMiwerds:
Sorry, but the Word clearly says those that "maketh and loveth a lie" will be outside the city.

Your argument is not with me, it is with what the God clearly says.

Revelation 22:15 For without (outside) are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

One that lies consistently, (maketh a lie) saying God requires tithes of money, will be found outside.
One that embraces that lie (loveth a lie) that God requires tithes of money, will be found outside.

Believe what you will, but my God is not a liar. If He said those who love and make a lie will be outside the city, I believe Him.

You also lie consistently about some delusional God's only holy tithe definition. With the same measure, it will be meted to you. Beware.

Mar 13:10 And the gospel must first be published among all nations.
#the Good News.

thehomer:
You can say whatever you want about "spiritual matters or theology". Declaring someone ignorant about imaginary fields of knowledge doesn't make you an expert. All you've said so far is that I'm acting according to how your God created me to act so why are you making so much noise? After all won't part of this "sinful" nature that I reject your God?

You were largely ignorant in spiritual matters or theology. Even after you were clearly shown otherwise, you still blindly insist that God created you to act a particular way. God DIDN'T create you to act that particular way, you were created for God's glory and praise. Adam was not BORN but created, and he was created good. It's like an HIV patient or some other deficiency, who was not born that way. But he acquired this virus and deficiency, and everything born by him is going to get it. That is a picture or sense in which we are to Adam. Adam was created good but got infected with the sin virus. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned. You were born with a sinful nature, you were not created with a sinful nature. Your parents "born" you, not God. Being born again is to be born of God.

I see nothing wrong with how they lived or died.

You couldn't.

As much doubt as I have about the things I listed.

Good, suit yourself. You were the one that said only idiots have no doubts. You have no doubts about your views on the existence of God and heaven i guess.

As far as I know, if someone commands the killing of children and innocent people, such a person is evil. Telling me that he loves one tribe but hates all others doesn't make him good.

You don't know too far, that is why. When you suspend your thinking about God to only vilify Him, you are thinking less.

You're the one clearly being silly here. Read what you put in bold and tell me what is wrong with Ingersoll making that particular point. There's a reason why I placed my statement after that particular paragraph with its highlighted text. A little thinking won't hurt.

What did i put in bold? What statement after a particular paragraph do you refer to? Your problem is the little thinking, you need to think deep. make use of that brain more and you would no doubt come to conclusions that there is a God in heaven.
Psa 19:1 The heavens declare the glory of God; and the firmament showeth his handiwork.
Psa 19:2 Day unto day uttereth speech, and night unto night showeth knowledge.
Psa 19:3 There is no speech nor language, where their voice is not heard.

What we're trying to do here is to analyze whether or not you or your God is cruel using questions. If you would like us to analyze the claim that your God is not cruel, then please begin by answering my question rather than talking about irrelevant stuff. Please try to focus on analyzing whether or not your God is cruel.

You need to be able to multitask. i like you but this your last post projects you as a lazy thinker, doing little thinking. We are doing your analysis and i already replied it. See it again in bold, you can go back to re-read that i already answered your question. Are you skimming through my posts? It is cruel for any man to order the killing of another, God is not man.
Now, to analyse from my own perspective, answer these please.
1. What makes your view/position more moral than others'on examination malpractice, gambling, rebellion, bribery, staling, rioting, adultery, colors or corruption?
2. Do you think it is cruel for a goat to kill seven other goats?
3. Do you think it is cruel for a human being to kill 6chickens before this year runs out?
4. What is the point about 6months, are you appealing to emotions, Is it less cruel to order the killing of 6years or 60years or 600years?

What is the point of this question when we agree that living morally is right? As far as I'm concerned, it just is right.

Good. You simply proved my statement that your morality lacked any base, stuff is just right because it is right or because you say so. These were my questions again in case you want to lose focus. "Living morally is right, what makes it right? What is the basis? Why is something right and another wrong? What or who determines this?" Your answer is that IT IS JUST RIGHT. Let's go on.

You only claim to know some superior God but then anyone who believes in some God makes the same claim so who is right? I don't recall propounding chaos you're welcome to show me where I did that. I don't want your God's heaven so what does this mean? Does this then mean that I don't have to do what your God wants?

If the same God orders abominable crimes as well as gives good suggestions, I'd say that such a God is an abomination. So, telling me that your God has made some good suggestions too just doesn't cut it. According to your Bible, your God ordered some people to kill babies and adviced some people to rape female victims. Don't look at me, read your Bible. The fact that he hasn't said to you personally doesn't mean he can't say it to someone else.

i am right, no God is as great as my God. He is incomparable and happens to be among a select few that make such claims. Get back to me when you find a more superior God.
Isa 46:5 To whom will ye liken me, and make me equal, and compare me, that we may be like?
Isa 40:25 To whom then will ye liken me, or shall I be equal? saith the Holy One.
Psa 115:3 But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.
Exo 15:11 Who is like unto thee, O LORD, among the gods? who is like thee, glorious in holiness, fearful in praises, doing wonders?
Jer 32:17 Ah Lord GOD! behold, thou hast made the heaven and the earth by thy great power and stretched out arm, and there is nothing too hard for thee:

You propound chaos when you imply that morality should be based on nothingness, individual thought. Your thought and views are different from others and other societies, times and climes. MY morality has its foundations in God(the FIFA analogy), so i play according to His rules, His Kingdom, His agreement, the New Testament/Covenant/Agreement which is the agreement He made with me. AGAIN, Focus on what we were discussing.
God orders no abominable crime, its all a matter of perspective. Now, don't get preposterous. God has not made SOME good suggestions, He made EVERY good suggestion. God is Love.'
Jam 1:17 Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning.
Tell me one good thing or moral thing that is not already stated, commanded and encouraged in the Bible. Pray tell. you forgot to answer these.
1. Does God order us to kill babies or advice us To Molest female victims?

No I don't want to kill babies but your God does so please talk to him. You say God owns eveyone. I disagree so who is right? I'm sorry but you're the one thinking less if you think that it is right for one person to own another person such that they can do whatever they want to them. Like ordering them to kill babies or rape people. All the people you mentioned when functioning appropriately are bound by laws but according to you, your God isn't bound by any laws so he could in fact just want people to suffer and that could be why he gave such command.

Oh God does? You have a problem with your tenses or you are ready to show us where? When you disagree with God's ownership, you lose perspective in judgement/analysis. You suspend your thinking. You would judge better based on the correct perspective, that IF God is OWNER and CREATOR, He would and can do what He pleases to. That is the Biblical narrative and perspective. There is stuff you can do to your possession/belongings that i cannot. BECAUSE it is yours. You are a higher creature than a cockroach or a fish, that is one reason we would not talk of you murdering a cockroach or a fish, even when you did not create them or even own them.
All the people i mentioned simply showed you that the same act can be done by different people and one will be legal and the other illegal. The police or judge handcuff mr A without it being a crime, i handcuff mr A and it is a crime. While it is a crime for me to kill you, it is not a crime for God to kill you.
Your last line is a silly and baseless assumption.

Whatever he is, I'd say he is immoral? If he is moral, why would he give such a command? He has given such a command before hasn't he?

This is the question. Does God command me to kill my child and offer her as burnt offering?

Do you remember that your God once ordered the killing of children? I'd say that is an example of some of that rubbish that he ordered.

YES, i remember. Now you are coming home little by little with ONCE. Next time don't make ignorant statements as "if Christians kill 6 month old infants, that's fine but if someone else does it, it is an atrocity. This is one of the reasons why I say that with your God, there is no morality."
Have you ever done or ordered anything that YOU now think was rubbish or silly?
Can we take you serious now or not? i'm hoping you would be straight enough to answer this simple questions instead of/before side-stepping and diverting issues.
My question was What is a greater alternative than the Word of God below(1John4v7-9; 3v15-19)? You did not provide any alternative, criticism is not alternative. What Would You Substitute for the Bible as a Moral Guide?

MarkMiwerds:
Pastors and those not pastors alike who will defend monetary tithe requirement teachers really should rethink their positions. Especially in light of Revelation 22:15.

Revelation 22:15 (KJV) 15 For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.

Those that make and love a lie, ("God requires you to tithe your money"; "God said if you tithe your money to the Church, He will open the floodgates of Heaven and bless you abundantly" ) are promised denial of entrance into God's eternal Kingdom.

There you go again in hypocrisy. Stop 'threatening' people not to tithe or teach tithe, especially when you have issues with others 'threatening' people to tithe. God is not going to stop anybody from entering His eternal kingdom because he tithed or preached tithes. It is not right to be manipulative in order to stop others from being manipulated by another others.

mynairatime:
A reasonable person will not ask how many of them by jet. but ask how many of them buys food into house of God? if only one of them buys jet & no one of them buys food then jet is = 1 while food is less than 1. did u do math in ur p.hd program is a simple equetion

Please, work on your grammar, its hard to read. You generalised when you stated that "how many church dey use the money to buy food inside the church? then dey use the money to buy jet & food they will be eating inside the jet ". That is why i had to ask for how many of them that buy jets. You couldn't answer that. Doctrine should be based on the Bible and the Holy Spirit, not on propaganda and an unreasonable one at that. Does your church buy food into the house of God? Do you think other churches don't buy food into the house of God? Why do you think so?

If a cost of a jet is = 1 then the cost of food is less than which means it is more affordable to buy food into the house of God than to buy a jet but they didnt buy the food but mamy jets i dont how quantitative u are. can u understand me olaagbu

How do you come about this assumption or scenario?

Phinity318:
How can u market a product and not use it? what do u think the public will say about you? You simply selling inferior goods while u go out to get original/superior once

This is not just a product, these are people's lives. If parents make their young adult children do exactly what they want, it is the same you that would probably complain hypocritically and cry more than the bereaved. Must all the children of a ceo work in his company? Must Oyedepo's children school in Nigeria?

honey001:
But why schooling abroad when her father has about two universities in Nigeria?

Must they attend their church's school or work in their father's company?

Goshen360:
Your observation is truthfully right. They claim Israel was main or solely agrarian society then but right in their face, scriptures proved them wrong. Many occupations were mentioned in the law but none of them the law required them to tithe.

Is it the devourer that has devoured your common sense? MAINLY or LARGELY does not mean ONLY or SOLELY. Stop twisting people's words the same way you twist the Bible ignorantly. No one said there were no other occupations. What we have shown is that even other occupations tithed. That you had another occupation is no proof that you did not tithe. Jesus said SCRIBES tithed. The lawyers and Pharisees were assumed to have as.ses and ox in Luke 14. If they did, they probably tithed of it. To say that only farmers tithed is redundant, no scripture says so or prohibits otherwise. The omniscient Holy Spirit wrote 66 books and didn't speak against it or see it as dangerous. You are barking the wrong tree.

DJHayes:
Where is the Biblical proof that Israel was an agrarian society? Or even largely agrairian? When the old Testament mentioned other job descriptions and those who fulfilled them, was it lying?

The problem I have with this whole tithe fiasco is the lack of evidence that Israel was solely, or mostly, agrarian. I have a problem with the claim that we should be tithing our money when there is absolutely no recorded instance in the Bible of anyone being told to do such.

The only way to arrive at a conclusion of a money tithe being necessary is to completely ignore the biblical text itself.

This is ridiculous, what do you mean by biblical proof BTW? It's like asking for biblical proof that there was an economy. Of course there was, and the Bible infers so, but i don't need the Bible to say so before i know. It is common sense and historical that the economies in the past were agrarian, until the industrial revolution. That was a turn of events when things started to look up as it were. It seems many of you do not know the meaning of the word "agrarian". An agrarian economy is simply dominated by or relating to farming or rural life. It is PRO-farming, of land: relating to land, especially its ownership and cultivation. It is like what we call rural areas or countryside today. You will easily find farmers and farms there as opposed to urbanized areas. Nobody says there were no other jobs. We say they were mainly agrarian, the society was largely agrarian. Most individual dealt more with cultivation, crops, food, livestock. It was common for wealth and work to be measured that way. It was usual for families and individuals to have farms and livestock, it wasn't strange. Rich men in Bible times were usually measures with their large barns, cattle and sheep. Unlike today where we use dollars and naira to measure wealth. Blessings and curses, laziness and hardwork were "hinged" around agriculture. Most of the promises were on baskets and storehouse and rain etc. Jesus Christ could easily look at anybody, a disciple, a pharisee, a scribe, a lawyer in His earthly existence, and talk about agricultural terms and parables. It wasn't out of place for Him to assume that these people had oxen and sheep. He talked about them tithing even of garden herbs. It wasn't absurd as those were the times they lived in.
Luk 14:3 And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:5 And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day?
Luk 14:6 And they could not answer him again to these things.

mynairatime:
It seems olaaegbu has p.hd in religion pilfering. how many church dey use the money to buy food inside the church? then dey use the money to buy jet & food they will be eating inside the jet me.

Things are not always what they seem. How many local churches do we have? How many of them buy private jets? How do you come to the conclusion of how money is spent inside jets? Are you seeming your way through? You should/ought to answer these questions honestly instead of hissing away or asking diversionary questions or attacking/insulting me or others.

Luk 1:67 And his father Zacharias was filled with the Holy Ghost, and prophesied, saying,
Luk 1:68 Blessed be the Lord God of Israel; for he hath visited and redeemed his people,
Luk 1:74 That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear,
Luk 1:75 In holiness and righteousness before him, all the days of our life.

This is the Good News. This is what it means to be filled with the Holy Ghost. this is the prophecy that should be fulfilled through us, the things which are written concerning us. That he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear. Our arch enemy is satan the devil, that is the adversary. The good news is that we are granted deliverance, out of the hand of our enemies. Sin is our number top enemy, sickness is our enemy. Immorality, corruption, stealing, unforgiveness, debauchery, wickedness, these are our enemies. What a good news, that he would grant unto us, that we being delivered out of the hand of our enemies might serve him without fear. We can be delivered from these enemies. He came to deliver us from these enemies. When He proclaimed "It is finished", it was that we could now serve Him without fear. Serve Him in holiness and righteousness. This is your reasonable service. This is achievable, ALL THE DAYS OF OUR LIFE. Indeed, we have been below par. Can you imagine a Mercedes Benz jeep 2014 model, bought with good money. And they just park it in the bush, let your light SO shine that they may SEE. or the car is just moving around at 20km/hr from Lagos to Abuja. You would question that, right? This is the way we live as christians despite the good news. He granted us, delivered us, to serve Him, in holiness and righteousness ALL THE DAYS OF OUR LIFE. #the Good News.

chillykelly86:
The Master hath need of me. I freely gave my life to the Master. Me and my all belong to the Master now(100%, not just 10%; The question I pose here is:- If 10% belongs to God, who does 90% belong to? "Me"? And as a Christian, who does "me" belong to? It doesn't add up, does it?). That should be the position of every Christian. And so, whatever needs to be expended in doing the Masters work should and would be expended, be it time, money, societal standing or even my life. I give them willingly, without compulsion because I understand what it means that "I am not my own, I was bought at a price". However, I would not compel a fellow believer who has not come to that understanding to do so. The best I can do is to teach him/her with Scriptures until he/she has learned it and has become convinced of it. - (2 Timothy 2:13(NIV)...continue in what you have learned and have become convinced of ...).
So, please don't get me wrong, Christians should be givers, generous givers for that matter, in the footsteps of God(who gave His only begotten Son) and Christ(who gave His life) but their giving should never be out of compulsion, coercion, manipulation, etc. So, I wouldn't make mockery of Christ and/or trample underfoot God's principles in the name of enforcing "giving" or "salvation" or any other thing. They should be out of the individual's freewill. That freewill is important because that is the justification for judgement. "Responsibility for one's actions, thoughts and words".

God bless you.

We seem to be saying the same thing in different perspectives. You initially said Without your tithes, God's work with still go on. He will build His Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it. All He needs are ready men who have cleansed themselves of filth and been made ready for the Master's use. now you are saying that He has need of 100% and you have given him 100% or something like that. If you have given Him 100%, you should have no problem or discourage me or others from giving Him 10%. We are babies, allow us to grow until we can say we give Him 100% too. Talk is cheap, and we need to put our money where our mouth is, as it were. I give my tithes willingly, without compulsion because I understand what it means that "I am not my own, I was bought at a price". Is that allowed? Can i also continue in what i have learned and have become convinced of?
God bless you too.

thehomer:
Oh? Now I'm a sinner by nature. But your God made me a sinner by nature now he is punishing me for following the nature he gave me? This means that he always wanted to torture me. This also means that he is the one doing this and not people choosing hell.

If i said you were largely ignorant in spiritual matters or theology, you would contest it. of course, you are a sinner by nature, it is not just now. This is what the Bible says/teaches. Humans are sinners by nature and by deed. Your nature makes you a sinner, then your deeds also make you a sinner e.g a murderer, liar, thief etc. For instance, not every sinner is a murderer or armed robber. Those are deeds and deeds have their punishments. People would be judged ACCORDING to their works/deeds. But there is a default nature of sin called the Adamic nature. Every man is BORN that way, this is why it is of prime importance to be born AGAIN.
Psa 51:5 Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.
Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:
Joh 3:6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
Joh 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

We were all conceived in sin, ALL have sinned, there is none righteous or good, not one. That which is born of the flesh is flesh, once you are born by man, you are man having the default sin nature. Marvel no more, you MUST be born again. Adam was not BORN but created, and he was created good. It's like an HIV patient or some other deficiency, who was not born that way. But he acquired this virus and deficiency, and everything born by him is going to get it. That is a picture or sense in which we are to Adam. Adam was created good but got infected with the sin virus. Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned.

That is still not mentoring so you can simply drop that claim. The fact that I like the ideas that were expressed then isn't new. It simply isn't mentoring.

You like to harp on about irrelevancies. Okay, they are your models. Hopefully, you don't end up like them.

I have as much doubt about that as I have about the Muslim ideas of God, heaven, eternity. And as much doubt as I have about faeries and other myths whether Aztec, Norse, Greek and traditional African ones.

Oh? But you said that only idiots have no doubts. Again, do you have no doubts that God is a immoral God, or that hell does not exist?

Sure there are intelligent people. They've simply suspended their thinking when it comes to God. When they suspend their thinking about God, they're thinking less.

No, they have not suspended their thinking. They have instead thought deeper and seen something that supersedes thinking, revelation. Talking about suspended thinking, that is what you do all the time. You are thinking less apparently. When you think God is not moral because you read something in Malachi but block your mind to a full perspective in reading Ezra and Job and Daniel and other Words/books of the same God, that is suspended thinking. Arguing on no basis that God did what is recorded in Exodus but did not do what is recorded in Genesis, that is suspended thinking. When you suspend your thinking about God to only vilify Him, you are thinking less.

And what is wrong with what he said?

You are taking us back to November 14, that is silly. Lemme brief you on the circle.

---

You: It is incredible that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation. It is incredible that the more brain you have the less your chance is. There can be no danger in honest thought, and if the world ever advances beyond what it is to-day, it must be led by men who express their real opinions.
Me: It is indeed incredible and mischievous of you and Ingersoll to so conclude.
You: How is it incredible?
Me: How would anybody come to conclusions that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation, or that the more brain you have the less your chance is? What makes you think that believers are not expressing their real opinion?
You: Well are you absolutely sure of salvation? Your God generally asks people to suspend their thinking and do whatever he says.
Me: 1. How would anybody come to conclusions that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation?
2. How would anybody come to conclusions that the more brain you have the less your chance is?
3. What makes you think that believers are not expressing their real opinion?
These were the questions asked.
You: 1. Only idiots have no doubt.
2. Your God demands that people suspend their thinking. Thus, the more you think, the less likely you are to suspend it for some imaginary God.
3. I never said believers weren't expressing their real opinions.
Me: 1. Do you have doubts on your opinions about God, Heaven and eternity?
2. There are christian thinkers and intelligent researchers and scientists. For one instance, i have been thinking with you as it were. If you would think deeply, you would know that there is God.
3. Your role model Ingersoll said so and you reflect it by quoting that "It is incredible that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation. It is incredible that the more brain you have the less your chance is. There can be no danger in honest thought, and if the world ever advances beyond what it is to-day, it must be led by men who express their real opinions."
You: And what is wrong with what he said?

---

The fact that I'm in such a position doesn't say anything about your own position. You don't think your God is cruel. Well we can analyze this claim i.e if you're willing to think about these things. We can begin with a few scenarios.

Do you think it is cruel to order the killing of 6 month old babies?

So you agree that it is not thinking only that puts you in position to determine what cruelty is? You're thinking and i am thinking and others are thinking. You skipped the question "What makes your view/position more moral than others'on examination malpractice, gambling, rebellion, bribery, staling, rioting, adultery, colors or corruption? Do you think it is cruel for a goat to kill seven other goats? Do you think it is cruel for a human being to kill 6chickens before this year runs out? These are QUESTIONS, not rhetorics. BTW, what is the point about 6months, are you appealing to emotions, i thought you wanted to think? Is it less cruel to order the killing of 6years or 60years or 600years? It is cruel for any man to order the killing of another, God is not man.

You're asking me what makes living morally right? Well I'm sorry but some would say you have hit philosophical bedrock with the shovel of a stupid question. Unless you're suggesting that living morally is wrong, I don't see the point of this question. So, are you suggesting that living morally is wrong?

Living morally is right, what makes it right? that is my question, what is the basis? Why is something right and another wrong? What or who determines this? It is a valid question not a silly question.

Actually, your approach is relative to what other Gods and humans think is the right approach. Secondly, you're stating that the foundation of your morality is a being that orders the killing of babies and advices people to rape female captives. As far as I can tell, this means that to you, no action is really right or wrong.

Sure, it is relative in the order of less and superior. i know the Superior, God. Unlike the chaos that antitheists like you are propounding. If you want to partake in the FIFA world cup, you have to abide by the FIFA rules, not your rules or relative rules. i choose to serve my God and i abide by His rules, He is the Source and Foundation of my morality. Who and what is yours, Ingersoll or Russell? Secondly, dump your suspended thinking. Do you understand and read that the same God orders every conceivable good behaviour? Have you read the Bible or just what your mentors and models say about the Bible? Tell me one good thing or moral thing that is not already stated, commanded and encouraged in the Bible. Pray tell. Does God order us to kill babies or advice us to rape female victims? Your selective and suspended thinking indeed makes you think less. Get perspective.

Is your God a person or not? You Christians say he is a person. Your God also thought that the right approach was killing babies. Well I'm happy to tell you that he too is wrong.

This is ludicrous. God is not a person in the sense of a human being, no Christian says so. God is not a MAN, remember that forever.
Num 23:19a God is not a man, 1Sa 15:29 And also the Strength of Israel will not lie nor repent: for he is not a man,
Isa 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isa 55:9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

God is the Creator of Heaven and Earth. He at least claims so to be, He is not in the same pedestal of mere men. Like i showed you, the Umpire or referee is not in the same level as the players on a field. he is an Higher authority and can do things that those on the field cannot legally do. What is with you and your fixation on killing babies, do you want to kill some? God is the Owner of every man, He can do what He wants to with His possession. Same way you can do what you want with all the fish in your fish pond. You are not a fish, are you? The police man, the judge can handcuff and imprison and sentence because they are the authority or governing body. You cannot legally and normally do same even to a criminal. If you cannot see this straight and simple perspective, you are thinking less and need help.

You may make that claim but if you're claiming that you follow the Christian God, then you're not a social and empathic human being. e.g what do you think about a person who commands you to kill your child and offer her as burnt offering? Is this command right or wrong?

Does God command me to kill my child and offer her as burnt offering? Is God a man? Again, these are questions.

And this means that you're merely playing with words. You're seriously saying that if Christians kill 6 month old infants, that's fine but if someone else does it, it is an atrocity. This is one of the reasons why I say that with your God, there is no morality.

i have not said any of this rubbish. Christians do not kill people, no one with the fear of my God and a respect for the agreement would do what your likes(Stalin and Hitler) did. Your reason for saying what you say is unreasonable and suspended. God is Love and expects us all, commands us all to live under the new covenant. Turning a miserable blind eye to that does not make it go away. What is a greater alternative than the Word of God below?
1Jo 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God.
1Jo 4:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
1Jo 4:9 In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
1Jo 3:15 Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.
1Jo 3:16 Hereby perceive we the love of God, because he laid down his life for us: and we ought to lay down our lives for the brethren.
1Jo 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?
1Jo 3:18 My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth.
1Jo 3:19 And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.

davitogreat:
http://www.shanghaidaily.com/article/article_xinhua.aspx?id=255923

Not to be blinded by ethnicity, party lines and religious bigotry, the article says.

"China Railway Construction Corporation (CRCC) on Monday officially rounded off the track laying work of Nigeria's first standard gauge railway modernization project"

It says it is Nigeria's FIRST STANDARD GUAGE railway modernization project. There are many problems i have with this. If i am doing something for the first time, i would be very careful and take extra precautions. Unfortunately, the company's website says "$ 8.3 billion Nigerian Railway Modernization Project, China’s biggest overseas project at the moment. ". China's BIGGEST overseas project, or maybe the company's BIGGEST overseas project. The first standard rail road project of the Chinese firm in Nigeria and the entire West Africa. Why are we putting in that much at a time for a first timer? Why not go one step at a time? This principle of wanting to fly before we crawl has set us back several times already, are we never shy when beaten? Why is this just happening on Monday December 1, 2014 more than 4years after this present government has been in power, this is just the track laying work by the way. Why would anyone shout or mutter this as a dividend of democracy or good governance? The military gave us refinerIES in 3 years, they gave us third mainland bridge and many other edifices, are those dividends of military rule or do we have ourselves in a blind, ignorant fix?

"The completion of the rail road is a guarantee for the running of the rail road next year. It will boost the confidence of the Chinese firm and also the determination of Nigeria."

So, it is formally complete for public use, but running of the railroad will be next year? Of course, it will boost the confidence of the chinese firm, why not? They have seen cheap labour and a lack of respect for the Nigerian citizens they will be using for menial manual labour. they have seen how we treat other skin color like gods with worship, blaring sirens and escorts, and the yes-sir yes-men around their board meetings ready to sell their people and exploit them to the maximum legally. Little wonder the article(vice chairman) called what he saw in Nigeria a miracle. Profit margin, exploitation, extortion, human rights and labour law abuse miracles. We are hoping for a better Nigeria and we hope to see it in the coming days. Let us not be blinded by party politics but do what is right, whoever may be there. Constructing roads and rails is not dividend of democracy, any Pharaoh and Nebuchadnezzar and Hitler and Saddam Hussein can do that and did more than that. Government, please give us the BEST one step at a time, it is what you are elected and paid heavily to do.
@Blackfire, tomakint, Descartes, stebell, rugged7, babestella,FabItal

eghuan1:
I have a problem with a biblical theme and I need conceptual clarification on this.
in the bible and we are told that God made man in his own image, then later on we are told that Jesus took the image of man to come to earth.
my question then is was it that Jesus was not in the image of God whose image man was made that He (Jesus) had to take man's image to come to earth.

NB: I may be wrong in my understanding so Please educate me with biblical evidence as am not a bible student.

Why are you not a Bible student? i understand if you are not a Bible expert or scholar, but man does not live by bread alone but by EVERY Word of God. Be a Bible student.

Gen 1:26 And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likeness: and let them have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over the cattle, and over all the earth, and over every creeping thing that creepeth upon the earth.
Gen 1:27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.
Phi 2:7 But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men:

i want to believe these two passages convey what you are asking about. God created man in His image and likeness. What that means is that unlike other creation like the planets, the plants and the animals, man was created like God, as a tripartite being i.e three in One(Spirit, Soul and Body). In the image of God, man was like no other creature given the Breath of Life which makes man eternal in a sense.
Gen 2:7 And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.
That is why unlike other creatures, we have an eternity, either eternal Life or eternal Death. In God's image and as the crown of His "6-day creation work", we have the wisdom, intellect and dominion like no other creation of the work and are made to rule or reign or be gods of our domain(the earth). But you've heard the story of what happened i'm sure. Man sinned and fell, losing a lot of his god-status and image. We became spoilt, depraved, and out of course. We were now UNgodly and weak and condemned. So Jesus came in the form of a servant, as a man. God is not a man, but Jesus became a man. He wasn't us, He BECAME us.
Heb 7:26 For such a high priest became us, who is holy, harmless, undefiled, separate from sinners, and made higher than the heavens;
Hope that is clear.

vooks:
What's more entertaining that a shameless display of ignorance! Were they all farmers?

Did anyone say that they were all farmers? This bizarre solidarity makes one HOPE that you are all just ignorant as against dishonest. It is that bad.

MarkMiwerds:
agriculture was not their main occupation. They had many trades and occupations. Do you only read chapters that mention farming in the Bible? There were carpenters, lawyers, tax collectors, candlemakers, stone masons, forgers, merchants, seamen, and many other occupations.

Here is a kind of the dishonesty and ultimate uselessness of engaging you and your likes. Was Israel not agrarian?

chillykelly86:
I believe both sir.

And that is why I am not damned when I am not as merciful as I ought or as faithful as I ought because Christ's Grace is sufficient for me.

So now,
1. Do you believe tithe is a "less important or lighter" "MATTER OF THE LAW" than judgment, mercy and faith?
(Other translations render "weightier as "more important" ) .

The crux of the message is, "Christians are not bound by the law". So, stop promulgating laws with attendant penalties that you do not have the power to promulgate. Even the law of Moses was not promulgated by individuals but they were given by the Lord for the people of Israel. Christ died to set men free from laws and you are here trying your best to burden free men with your laws of tithing which were never for those free men. So now, who is persecuting Christ? Christ is freeing, you are binding?

In your human understanding, without tithes the work of God will not move forward but I tell you that even in the days of John the Baptist, the gospel has been preached in deserts. Without your tithes that your coerce and blackmail people to give, God's work with still go on. Have you not heard that the Lord said He will build His Church and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it? All He needs are ready men who have cleansed themselves of filth and been made ready for the Master's use.

If you believe both, that is excellent and that is my exact point. Judgment, mercy, and faith are WEIGHTIER "matters of the law", Christians are not bound by the law. This doesn't stop us as Christians from exercising or practicing weightier matters of the law like mercy and faith. It in the same way/vein/sense doesn't stop the tithe. You are not damned for not tithing, Christ's Grace is sufficient for me. i have ALWAYS believed tithe is a "less important or lighter" "MATTER OF THE LAW" than judgment, mercy and faith. you can confirm from others. The work of God will move forward and must move forward. It is however my understanding and experience that money is important in this life. Jesus talked about money and used money. Believers need money, do you need money? Jesus was a very spiritual man, you know. i understand that we should set our priorities and love and passion right, but it is foolhardy to imply that money is irrelevant. Ready men need ready money to go if they are going to go far. The Master hath need of your cash, make no mistakes. Sorry if that sounds brash, but that is the simple truth. It is not first, it is not priority, it is not even compulsory. i think it is necessary, in this life at least.

Candour:
True Christ hates hypocrisy. See what he told all the Jews listening to his sermon that day.

Matthew 23:1-3 Then spake Jesus to the multitude, and to his disciples, [2]Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:[3]All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do: but do not ye after their works:for they say, and do not.

He informed them that they were to do ALL that the hypocritical scribes and Pharisees told them to do, not just tithes because they represented Moses. Remember the law of Moses was still in supremacy at this particular time. If you have to tithe because Christ said it ought to be done there, then you MUST do all the scribes and Pharisees have coded as laws for the Jews too.

See some of the message in that passage.Excerpts again below.
"The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat. The people were not to lose sight of this fact. They were not to be disrespected or disregarded. Moses'seat refers to the seat of authority, of the law. They were the legislators. All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do. The word "therefore" is the operative word in this phrase. If Jesus had said " All whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do", it will have a different meaning from saying " All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do". The THEREFORE is there for them to note that observing and doing is premised on Moses'seat. What they are bidding you to observe and do has to rest on the law. It was not just a blind command to do whatsoever the pharisees bid. Even Jesus Himself did not do whatsoever the pharisees bid. See for instance,
Luk 19:39 And some of the Pharisees from among the multitude said unto him, Master, rebuke thy disciples.
Jesus did not rebuke His disciples. In fact He told His disciples to beware of the pharisees.
Mat 16:6 Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.
Mat 16:12 Then understood they how that he bade them not beware of the leaven of bread, but of the doctrine of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees.

It would be inconsistent and contradictory of Jesus to say that we(disciples and multitudes) should beware of the doctrine of the pharisees, and then say we should do all whatsoever they bid. We need to read with understanding, else we miss the meaning. Jesus' hearers understood Him, they didn't do all whatsoever the pharisees said.
Act 5:28 Saying, Did not we straitly command you that ye should not teach in this name? and, behold, ye have filled Jerusalem with your doctrine, and intend to bring this man's blood upon us.
Act 5:29 Then Peter and the other apostles answered and said, We ought to obey God rather than men.
But they respected them, and regarded them as authority. They wrote about them and referred to them as elders.
This applies to us all today too. We are to respect and regard authority, whether in secular government or office or in the society. Traditional rulers, institutional heads, irrespective of their ignorance and sin. We honour them and obey them, and submit to them where applicable. But of course, we obey God rather than men where there is a contrast.
We should not forget or neglect the later part of the verse. It says "but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not." Don't do after their works BECAUSE they say and do not. There are those that have rule over us. We have church leaders and elders and pastors. We are to follow their life, imitate them(in some translations). We do not imitate blindly though, we CONSIDER their end/goal/outcome/direction, Jesus Christ being the same forever. If they are deviating from the Word, do not follow them."

Whoever has tried to stop your tithing is infringing on your fundamental human right. You even have the right to spend your cash on marijuana if it catches your fancy. I'll defend your inalienable right to indulge. However, why we can't keep quiet is because of wicked, callous, manipulative and insensitive messages on tithe preached by those who should know better. Since it's possible you've not heard or seen them before, some are reproduced below and i expect you to get angry with these mog too, infact get very righteously angry.

Oyakhilome






Adeboye



Pat Robertson


Creflo Dollar


I'm sure you'll agree with me that its wickedness that makes messages like this come out and it's totally unchristian.

i verily agree with this statement "Whoever has tried to stop your tithing is infringing on your fundamental human right." Most antitihers here have tried to stop me and other tithers from giving tithes. Manipulative questions and articles aimed at discouraging tithes is wickedness and unchristian. We should not keep quiet about abuses on every teaching and christian doctrine as much as we can. Some unhealthy fixation on tithes and gloating over preachers is not what God has called us to. Preach the word; be instant in season, out of season; reprove, rebuke, exhort with all longsuffering and doctrine. That is the message and mandate.

This is actually talking about the needy among the brethren and folks who have mentioned it on this thread have been accused of playing Judas. If you're now getting concerned about the poor, then that's a good thing. Hope you'll help others see the necessity of taking welfare of needy brethren close to their hearts?

Matthew 25:40 And the king shall answer and say unto them, Verily i say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me

Giving to the poor equates to giving God almighty as Christ affirmed in that scripture. It means a needy brother can even collect your tithe if you must pay it after all Christ said he could be represented by them and we all, individually are priests and are called God's temple.

This is ridiculous, do you have needs? Are you the needy? i have always had the welfare of the brethren close to heart and help others see so when i can. The poor BTW is not necessarily the brethren, i have many poor people on the streets of Lagos that are not the church. i help them when i can and how i can, but i never for once confuse them as Christ or the Body of Christ. Give ALMS of such things as ye have. i give ALMS/handouts to the poor. i have come to understand the importance of church contributions in the forms of tithes and offerings and i agree with the local church's administration of these gifts. i found this scripture true in my local assembly and thus i give.
2Co 9:12 For the administration of this service not only supplieth the want of the saints, but is abundant also by many thanksgivings unto God;
And that is what i strive to explain, the basis why a christian can and should tithe and give other offerings. While i think that a real christian should tithe i am not of the opinion that you MUST tithe. It's not my business/headache what you think about that, but you all would do some honesty to not mischievously blur those lines in our discussions.
Matthew 25:40 says my brethren, ye have done it unto me. Giving to the brethren equates to giving God almighty as Christ affirmed in that scripture. Not some general poor, please do give to them i am not against that in any way. Nothing stops you from giving a tenth to the poor, another tenth to your individual brethren, another tenth to the Church/Assembly/Body/Congregation etc. There are 10 tenths in an 100 i suppose. Who has hindered you? It is evident from Matthew 25 that when you GIVE meat to the brethren, you are giving to Christ the Head. When you take in the brethren(even the least), clothe the brethren, visit the brethren, come to the brethren, you have done it to Christ who is the Head and Saviour of the Body. This is the point i laboured to show vooks, chillykelly86, Mark and co. All these are forms of GIVING, giving love, time, clothe, care etc. When you do something to the Body of Christ, it is as unto God. A parallel thought is implied in the Scriptures that say For God is not unrighteous to forget your work and labor of love, which ye have showed toward his name, in that ye have ministered to the saints, and do minister. He that receiveth whomsoever I send receiveth me; and he that receiveth me receiveth him that sent me.

Blackmail alert! Blackmail alert!!

No christian is against giving in a gathering of believers. No christian is against meeting the legitimate needs of the church. No christian is interested in starving the body of Christ of necessary resources. The contention has always been against manipulating Christians to give or threatening them to give.

Just allow the children of God be led by this scripture below and you'll see all of us living happily ever after

2Corinthians 9:7 Every man according as he purposeth in his heart, so let him give; not grudgingly, or of necessity: for God loveth a cheerful giver.

God bless you

Folks here are against me giving a tenth of my money in a gathering of believers. We should ALSO not manipulate christians to not give or threaten them about falling from grace and any other such rubbish like goading them to keep all the law if they give tithe. i know many christians like me, who have purposed in their hearts to give the tithe. And it is not grudgingly but cheerfully. Many folks dance rather too cheerfully (for my shamefaced disposition) to give their tithes. i however have no problem with them even though i might not be caught dead being THAT cheerful even. There are cheerful givers of the tithe. New testamental given can be PURPOSEFUL, NOT GRUDGINGLY and CHEERFUL as seen in the verse you quoted. Some other verses show also that it can be PLANNED, REGULAR, CONSISTENT, GRACIOUS and PROPORTIONAL. e.g
1Co 16:2 Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.
The tithe can meet all these criteria. So also do other offerings and conversely. God bless you too, though some of your antiprosperity friends would find that statement unnecessary as we are already blessed in Christ and etc. You display a more level-headed persona though, so again.
God bless you.

vooks:
There is nothing like liberty to obey a command. That's a contradiction. You are under no liberty to ignore commands
Paying an externally determined fraction is not GIVING. That's why you pay taxes. One asalimpo called tithes taxes.
We are trying as much as possible to liberate Gentiles from the legalistic yoke of tithing imposed on them. In the first century, they contended with circumcision. Today it is tithing. Note, if a Gentile of their own volition opted to undergo circumcision nobody would prevent them. The error was the Jews made it mandatory. Holy Spirit called it a burden. We see them every time. Some are bound by the Sabbath commandment. Others won't shake your hands. They are 'happily' following Moses.

Christ has liberated us from the Law and only requires of us that we purpose in our hearts what to give and this without compulsion. The same Spirit of Christ who convicts you of sin and righteous life is to guide us on what to give. Tithing brigade are terribly scared that the Spirit would NEVER convince anybody to give, so they create commandments with terrible penalties and utopia to prompt giving.

Now,
Matthew 23:23 (KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

Which part of this scripture tells you to tithe? Please walk me through it

You said that prayer is a command. i know well that i am at liberty to obey that 'command'. Is that a contradiction? Correct it if i am wrong; i can pick the amount of time i want to pray, i can pick the time and the place to do it. i can pray without anyone asking me to. i can pray conditionally. Like, IF i wake up tomorrow i pray, IF i run into trouble unexpectedly i pray. What is not right here, the liberty, the command, or the assertion that it is a contradiction?
Abraham and the pharisee GAVE tithes, they externally determined the fraction.
Gen 14:20 And blessed be the most high God, which hath delivered thine enemies into thy hand. And he GAVE him tithes of all.
Luk 18:12 I fast twice in the week, I GIVE tithes of all that I possess.

i purpose in my heart to give tithes, even Daniel purposed in his heart so purpose is not a new thing. The Spirit of Christ guides me to give the tithe. i quoted a passage from Luke 11, you can go and and check that. you are yet to show me/us where this passage was debunked(whatever that means) in my eyes, or show where the passage said to do ALL the law. Selah on the passage you quoted, i'm not going to walk you like a blind man.

vooks:
Prayer is a command.
He was not commanded to tithe.

vooks:
He picked the amount,the time and the place to do it. Nobody asked him to. Neither did nobody aks Jacob to. In fact, that he conditionally offered to tithe tells you tithing was not a practice.

Next question

Okay, you said that "There is nothing like liberty to obey a command. That's a contradiction. You are under no liberty to ignore commands" Do i have a liberty to pray or not? could Abraham have ignored tithing?

thehomer:
Those are not threats. A threat would be "if you don't believe that I'm in the house, I'll capture you and lock you up in a dungeon". No, people go to hell because God created it for the purpose of sending people there.

Yeah, your quote is a threat. The blue below is a warning. You don't go to hell chiefly because you don't believe(Just like you don't die chiefly because you crossed the road carelessly, there was a car/cars), you go to hell because you are a sinner BY NATURE. Sinners go to hell, just like spoilt food go to the dustbin.
Not giving your life to Christ especially when you could have shows your pride and decision to go to hell literally. You miss out on the power to live the life of a child of God. A life that enjoys victory and power over sin and its influence. You miss out from a possible eternity with God and instead settle for a possible eternity in damnation.
Here is why Jesus(God) created hell. The prison is not prepared for you but for criminals. If however YOU become criminal and stay so, you go to prison.
Mat 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

That is not how mentoring works.

Well, that is how you work. You follow their guidance, training and advice which they have penned down or that you hear about or see. Their ideas are your model, your copy and paste.

1. Only idiots have no doubt.
2. Your God demands that people suspend their thinking. Thus, the more you think, the less likely you are to suspend it for some imaginary God.
3. I never said believers weren't expressing their real opinions.

1. Do you have doubts on your opinions about God, Heaven and eternity?
2. There are christian thinkers and intelligent researchers and scientists. For one instance, i have been thinking with you as it were. If you would think deeply, you would know that there is God.
3. Your role model Ingersoll said so and you reflect it by quoting that "It is incredible that only idiots are absolutely sure of salvation. It is incredible that the more brain you have the less your chance is. There can be no danger in honest thought, and if the world ever advances beyond what it is to-day, it must be led by men who express their real opinions."

No, a different opinion from mine is different. This doesn't mean that I'm unable to tell what cruelty is. What is the relevance of my view/position on adultery? What is the relevance of different colours here?

You said "I'm in such a position(to determine what cruelty is) because I can think." That supposes and implies that a different opinion from yours cannot think. For one instance, you think God is cruel, i think God is not cruel. Whose opinion should be followed? Why would your view be superior to mine? The question on your view/position on adultery and color is random. In the sense that i could ask the same on examination malpractice, gambling, rebellion, bribery, staling, rioting, rebellion or corruption. People have different opinions on each of these issues and more. What makes your view/position more moral than theirs?

I'm moral because it is the right approach to living as a human.

Why is it the right approach?

Neither. What makes you moral?

God chiefly. He is the FOUNDATION of my morality upon which other structures lie. That way, morality is not essentially relative as the right approach to living as a human. your right approach may not be Goodluck Jonathan's right approach or Hitler's.

Killing twins for being twins is immoral. Do you think that societies that killed other societies based on the command of a powerful person were moral?

What makes killing twins immoral. Some societies thought it was the right approach to living as humans. Some people think abortion on some grounds is the right approach to living as a human, Some people do not think so. That is the point i am driving home. Societies that killed other societies based on the command of a powerful person were not moral. Emphasis on "a powerful person". God is not a MAN, He is higher. On a plain field, if soccer player A commits a foul on Barcelona player Messi, no player on the field would commit a just foul in return or force out soccer player A. It is the Umpire that determines that. Is the Umpire not human, he is. but he acts on the authority of a governing body. Jungle justice is not the same as the one duly served by the law enforcement, even if it is the same sentence.

One of the reasons lies in my being a social and empathic human being. What is the basis of your morality?

i am also a social and empathic human being, anybody can make that claim as it were. Again, God is the basis/foundation of my morality.

I'm not mad at him. You're capable of suspending your thinking and that can make you commit all sorts of atrocities while thinking that you're serving your God. Which atheists and agnostics are you talking about and why did they do what they did? Like I said, I don't hate your God since I don't believe he is out there. I'm ignoring him and addressing you.

So you are not angry at God or any of His actions? True christians do not commit any atocities. The Word of God makes sure to that. The New Testament/Covenant/Agreement is our agreement, and a true christian is obedient to that agreement. That agreement is void of what may be termed atrocities, it is an agreement of Love and Grace. God is Love. The likes of Stalin and Hitler were like you and the world knows what they went on to do. They had no fear of God. No one with the fear of my God and a respect for the agreement would do what your likes(Stalin and Hitler) did. If you ignored God, you would not spend your time talking about Him.

Rom 14:17 For the kingdom of God is not meat and drink; but righteousness, and peace, and joy in the Holy Ghost.
This is the good news. The Kingdom of God is not all about this is the meat to eat, this is the drink to offer. The kingdom of God is JOY, PEACE and RIGHTEOUSNESS. There is JOY in the Lord, not tension and gloom. In fact, there is a command to "Rejoice in the Lord always". There is peace in God and with God, that is good news; Glory to God in the highest, and on earth peace, good will toward men. There is righteousness. We can actually live a righteous life at last. We receive POWER to become the children of God, the Sons of God. Jesus Christ the Son of God lived a righteous life. The good news is that we are His brethren, and can live out the kingdom life of righteousness, peace and joy in the Holy Ghost. #the Good News.

chillykelly86:
Matthew 23:23 (KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Phariseesyoy, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

@image123

From the words of Christ in the passage above:-
1. Do you believe tithe is a "matter of the law"?
2. Do you believe Christians are not bound by the law?

This is pretty straight-forward. I am sure some people will actually have stoned adulterous women, arguing that they have "defiled the temple of the Holy Spirit" if not for the specific encounter between Jesus and one such woman.

Oh common, this is ridiculous. From the words of Christ in the passage above:-
1. Do you believe judgment, mercy, and faith are WEIGHTIER "matters of the law"?
2. Do you believe Christians are not bound by the law?

OLAADEGBU:
Good question.

My brother from the same Father, i yam HAILING ohhhhh. Nice week.

vooks:
Prayer is a command.
He was not commanded to tithe.

How did he tithe then if tithing is a command?

vooks:
Swimming and drowning in ambiguity and vagueness.
Is tithing a command?

Is prayer a command? Was Abraham commanded to tithe?

vooks:
There is nothing like liberty to obey a command. That's a contradiction. You are under no liberty to ignore commands
Paying an externally determined fraction is not GIVING. That's why you pay taxes. One asalimpo called tithes taxes.
We are trying as much as possible to liberate Gentiles from the legalistic yoke of tithing imposed on them. In the first century, they contended with circumcision. Today it is tithing. Note, if a Gentile of their own volition opted to undergo circumcision nobody would prevent them. The error was the Jews made it mandatory. Holy Spirit called it a burden. We see them every time. Some are bound by the Sabbath commandment. Others won't shake your hands. They are 'happily' following Moses.

Christ has liberated us from the Law and only requires of us that we purpose in our hearts what to give and this without compulsion. The same Spirit of Christ who convicts you of sin and righteous life is to guide us on what to give. Tithing brigade are terribly scared that the Spirit would NEVER convince anybody to give, so they create commandments with terrible penalties and utopia to prompt giving.

Now,
Matthew 23:23 (KJV) Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone

Which part of this scripture tells you to tithe? Please walk me through it

Try to stay focused on me and you, or at least the Bible you and i. It is not a must for you to tithe, this is not the first time i am saying that. If you have a problem with that view, find someone else to discuss the tithes with, not me. i have never been under bondage or needed liberty from giving a token 10%. Jesus gave me all the liberty i needed and that settled it for me, no addition. We have purposed in our hearts to tithe. Wash your face and check the passage i quoted again. Pride is a major issue with many of you.

Candour:
According to image:

Tithe is a form of giving and if you are not against giving, you would not be against tithing.

According to Oyakhilome's devotional:

Actually, you pay your tithe; [size=14pt]you don’t give it[/size], as you would your free-will offering. So your tithe is not a gift, because you don’t pay a gift.

i like the colours.

Bidam:
It is simple really.There are Christians who tithe without having any problems doing so.
No verse in the Bible condemns anyone for tithing.
Tithing in itself as a form of giving is not condemned anywhere in the Bible.Those who want to express their giving in the form of tithes TODAY are absolutely free to do so.
Although all Christians are priests and disciples of the Lord, the NT shows that there are those who are placed in authority as far as SERVICE is concerned. The idea that "no one of us is higher than another" is true only in the sense of salvation; but it is absolutely false in terms of SERVICE.

Paul declares in 1 Corinthians 12:28 (KJV) that "God hath set some in the church, FIRST apostles, SECONDARILY prophets, THIRDLY teachers, AFTER THAT miracles, THEN gifts of healings, helps, governments, diversities of tongues." This quite clearly demonstrates that some in the Church are higher than others according to responsibility in service.

This is why the same Paul in 1 Corinthians 9:13-14 uses the Law of Moses as his basis for Biblical giving in support of those who preach the Gospel -

[list]Don’t you know that those who serve in the temple get their food from the temple, and that those who serve at the altar share in what is offered on the altar? In the same way, the Lord has commanded that those who preach the gospel should receive their living from the gospel.[/list]

In his argument in 1 Corinthians 9:13, Paul does not mention any of the types of offerings for supporting the priests. However, among the several ways in which ministers of the Temple and the Altar receive their sustenance in the OT, Numbers 18 outlines the tithes under the Levitical system. Paul draws from such passages in the Law of Moses to conclude that "In the same way" the Lord has ordained giving for ministers in the NT.

It is particularly interesting that verse 14 says this NT Christian giving should be "In the same way" (KJV) as those in the Law of Moses gave to ministers of the OT. The Amplified Bible renders it as "On the same principle". There is no verse that condemns tithing in itself anywhere in the NT, or even in the OT. If God so wanted badly to end tithing in all its forms anywhere in the NT, there definitely would have been clear condemnation of tithing in the teaching of the apostles.

Christians in the NT can draw guidelines from the OT Scriptures for practical giving today. That does not mean we therefore come under the operation of the old covenant of Judaism - no. Rather, in the same way as the apostle Paul drew largely from the Levitical system in the Law of Moses to teach about Christian giving for ministers of the Gospel, so it is in the same manner that many Christians express their giving in the form of tithes in their churches.

Beautiful and straight put. Lengthy posts please wait for now. @Candour etc

vooks:
Classic Image123 playing damsel in distress. They are out to infringe his right. Come Lord Jesus.
When all your fickle arguments to prop tithing are shot down, you plead your RIGHT
You are in bondage. Ever heard of Stockholm Syndrome? You are defending your captors, unless you are a tithe collector
https://www.nairaland.com/2018730/tithing-walking-dead

It is pretty lame quoting that verse to justify tithing when it asked them to do ALL of the Law. It is intellectual dishonest to pretend that this verse has never been debunked in your eyes.

Confronting the pious fraud of manipulating believers to part with their money is what we are all about. If your church would starve of funds if people gave Freewill, then they need deliverance not extortion in the name of God

i didn't play or joke, i stated facts. Antitithers on NL are infringing on the liberty to give the tithes. Giving out is not bondage to me, especially when it is to the Body of Christ. You have a right to your opinions though, just don't force them on us. The passage i quoted don't say to do ALL the law. This is mischief at work. Please show me/us where this passage was debunked(whatever that means) in my eyes?
There is fraud and abuse everywhere and in every Christian doctrine as it were. We don't throw away the baby with the bathing water. We on this forum try as much as possible to SHOW THE BASIS for tithing. On the other hand, antitithers eternally try to mischievously tie us to all abuses and a force to tithe. Manipulation is wrong, whether to tithe or not to tithe. I give my tithes freewill, remember that.

MarkMiwerds:
Image is constantly vilifying us, trying to paint us as against people giving altogether.

We have consistently said we are not against people giving. We are against people saying God requires tithes of money when His Word never says so. We are against statements like "tithes are given to God through the Church" and that "it is the Word of God" when there is not one iota of Scripture to support such claims.

Where is the Scripture that says "tithes are given to God through the Church"? How do we know God accepts such tithes when there is absolutely no evidence that He ever accepted tithes of money in the Tabernacle or Temple?

Where is the Scripture, Image? You said "it is the Word of God". So, produce the Scripture, or admit that it is not the Word of God but merely your opinion.

@chillykelly86 pay attention this time please. Where have i said you are against giving altogether? You have no problem making unfounded inferences from my post but get all heated up when i make inference from the Bible. Hypocrisy. Tithe is a form of giving and if you are not against giving, you would not be against tithing. Can i tithe? Can i call my tithe tithe? Are you in position to hinder people from giving? Can you give to God through the church? Can you persecute God by persecuting the Church? Is the church the body of Christ?
Do i expect you to answer these questions?