₦airaland Forum

adsonstone: I'm sure you'll agree with me that His crucifixion was to fulfil the prophecies.

The persecution we face too is to fulfil his prophecy.

John 15:20 "If they persecuted me, they will persecute you also. If they obeyed my teaching, they will obey yours also."

And he didnt mention Bible. "My teaching...your teaching!"

adsonstone: Now, if we do not have all their practises recorded,
Is it not safer to do the ones we have (prayer, confession and doctrine) that have been recorded and verified instead of dwelling on the recorded ones plus the unrecorded ones which may be uncertain as these uncertain ones may not be what was done when the church started.

Do you mind answering my questions directly?

Do you know all the prayers the apostles
said...and all the practices they had?
If yes, how did you know since all wasn't recorded in
the Bible.
If no, how can you then tell who is saying the exact
prayers and doing the exact things.

2. How can you verify if any teachings and practices
are true when you, Pastor Chris, Adeboye, Rev King,
Pastor 'Poverty is a sin,' Pastor TB Joshua, Jehovah's
Witnesses etc cannot even decide what is God's
doctrine is?

At this point I have to also ask you: what are you trying to achieve from this exchange?

You want to be declared winner? I declare you winner!

woky: am hopin to meet one soon, mayb by nxt week..




Hop to meet you 1day

Same here.

God bless your soul, "Mama."

glamoureze: Lol. my Catholic brothers. I just pray u don't allow these believe mislead you. the Bible mentioned the word heaven n hell clearly. Why is this one not mentioned.

Do you really want to know the truth...or do you just want to win the Catholics in argument?

If you just want to win, we will gladly concede the trophy to you...but if you want the truth...

amyg: U already know the truth,cos u r fighting so hard 2 cover up.I v sighted enuf examples, need I say more?am glad 4 a forum like this,we are not allowed questions in the church.people are dying inside cos of their love for the catholic church,while those that can't cope just creep away.just incase u don't know,the population of sacramental weddings has droppeD greatly,reason"my thread".I rest my case but I thank God that I finally got the chance 2 speak up.God bless u as u give all we argued about a thought and mayb effect a change for the sake of weak souls.

I want to forward this to the Archbishop of Lagos' office as early as next week.

In which diocese is this presently happening, which parish?

How can we tell the Church authority of these people you know that are being/have been denied the Sacrament of Holy Matrimony because they cannot afford a wedding fee?

Of course you know we must have facts.

Let us together help improve God's Church instead of merely condemning as if we ourselves are perfect.

adsonstone: Above all you mentioned, there's one that more superior.
5. Verifiable teaching and practise (Prayer, Confession and doctrine) exactly with what our Lord Jesus Christ and His Apostles taught and practised.
If it lacks this, I'm sorry, the Church is not true.

The Holy Spirit will guide You in your search. Shalom!

Excuse me, do you know all the prayers the apostles said...and all the practices they had?

If yes, how did you know since all wasn't recorded in the Bible.

If no, how can you then tell who is saying the exact prayers and doing the exact things.

2. How can you verify if any teachings and practices are true when you, Pastor Chris, Adeboye, Rev King, Pastor 'Poverty is a sin,' Pastor TB Joshua, Jehovah's Witnesses etc cannot even decide what is God's doctrine is?

adsonstone: Thank you for your research.
I learnt from it.

Also noteworthy; when Christ came and he taught, if there are criticisms and need for clearance, he referred or showed the people from the scriptures written hundreds of years by the prophets before he came which is now known as the old testament.

Yet they crucified him.

Scripture was not enough to convince the hard-hearted.

They even accused him of the same things you folks accuse us of.

Rich4god: Guy... How can you think of accepting such an offer.

Lol...maybe I wasnt as smart as I should have been....but at least I did think

chidachris: I appreciate your taking time to illustrate this bible verses. No doubt I see sense in your views.
But I want you to note that the arguement (to d best of my knowledge) is not that the church is built on anyone who confesses that jesus is christ but rather that Jesus did not physically establish a church to be headed by peter. But rather "[b]upon the revelation of peter" ( that he is the son of God) [/b]shall the church be established.

False.

Matt 16: 18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

It was a confession that built his Church on, gave the keys of the kingdom to, and gave authority to bind and loose. It wasnt a confession that Jesus named "rock." It was SIMON PETER.

chidachris: 2. As at the time of this statements english wasn't spoken so the word "church" wasn't used. The old greek translation used the word "Ekklessia" wich means assembly or congregation. So one could actualy argue that christ meant the assembly of saints

Changes nothing. No one ever said the Church is not an assembly.

chidachris: 3. However searching from the scriptures peter wasn't the first to officially start the catholic church (just as people believe) the catholic church was officially started in rome by constantine in 300AD

False.

St. Ignatius' letter the Smyrnaeans makes reference to the Catholic Church around 100AD.

chidachris: and peter never preached in Rome (according to scriptures) it was paul that headed the roman church ( though not catholic)

False.

In his first epistle, Peter tells his readers that he is writing from "Babylon" (1 Pet. 5:13), which was a first-century code word for the city of pagan Rome.

Look before you leap. Think before you talk. Learn before you teach.

chigold100: why are u all claiming that his or her own
church it the true church!!!!

listen carefully !!!


'''There is no church in heaven'''

bt the Bible mentioned the true church!!! and also
answered the question


''Why Do Churches Have
Different Doctrines And Denominations?''


Whether u re a catholic,anglican,pentcostal,sabbath,muslim,Jehova withness,deeperlife,lord chosen and so
on..........the fact still remain that...we are
serving the same GOD ....here is the prove **(1
corinthians 3:1-23)**


LOVE URSELF AND UR FAITH AND STOP
CONDEMING UR SELVES..... meditate on this verse (1 corinthians 1:1-31) Gods love to everi one is equal no matter the denomination......CIAO

What exactly have I done wrong?

Ukuts gp: if those who are dead are already in heaven with God, tell me what's the resurrection of the dead for? Did the verse u quoted tells u that they wud not die physically? Pls read and understand scripture b4 quoting. Ok.

"He who lives and believes in me will never die."--Jesus Christ.

mufikings: Wisdom is profitable to direct !!

it's so very sinful my dear.

Did or Do the Jews pray to David, or Moses or Abraham? or angels for that matter?

I ask this question to open the eyes of catholics to what they are doing. If you'll recall, ALL the disciples and Jesus and His whole family were Jewish. So were a huge number of converts to them.

This question I asked is VERY relevant to us today. The Jewish people AND Jesus Himself NEVER, NEVER, NEVER prayed to David, or Moses, or Samuel, or to angels or to any other person. They ONLY prayed to God Himself.

The fact that Jesus did NOT do this, should be more than enough to show catholics that this practice is VERY WRONG and is a sin! The fact that none of the Jews ever did this (of which Jesus was one) should also throw up a HUGE red flag for catholics! Jesus and the Jews knew the Old Testament Intimately and would have never gone against God's will like this. At least not those who cared about God.

Jesus Himself also said that He didn't come to do away with the law, but rather to fulfill it. You should also know from reading the Bible that God does not change. Therefore if it was wrong and a sin to pray to others and or angels then, it is still a sin now!

The catholics usually refer to the time that Jesus was caught up in the air with Moses. But Jesus did NOT pray to them and neither did the disciples.
The BIBLE records exactly what they did afterwards and Jesus would have had a cow if they had prayed to them. By reading the Bible you can determine that they did NOT pray to them. It's not in there...nowhere...nothing you can say will make it suddenly apprear either. Neither Jesus nor his disciples prayed to anyone other than God and that's exactly what they taught others to do. If they had taught differently there would be plenty to read about it in the history books and the Bible too because they would have been run out of town as blashpemers by the Jews specifically for that.

The unavoidable fact is that if they (the disciples,) had taught for people to pray to anyone other than God, there would have been a HUGE hullabaloo over it and the disciples would have been run out of town and most likely killed for that particular heresy, long before they could be killed for preaching the Gospel. Therefore the so called teachings of the individuals that taught this 100 or 200 years later MUST be heresy as anything else does not make sense.

Everything we need for our spiritual growth is in the Bible. If you can't show me where Jesus or his disciples or some other NT or OT writer said that it's ok to pray to dead people, then it conclusively means that it's not ok. As far as what Jesus did, He prayed to the Father and only to the Father. Why should we be any different It seems to me that catholics just don't like to face the fact that this teaching of their church is heresy of the highest order. Not one single disciple prayed to anyone but God either.

Consider also that there are quite a few prayers written about in both the OT and the NT. Not one single one is addressed to anyone other than God!

On top of all this there is another obvious example. When Jesus was asked by the disciples to teach them to pray, He taught them to pray to God! Many people seem to think that He was teaching them a single prayer to pray. He wasn't. He was teaching them exactly what they asked: HOW to pray. Prayer should be directed ONLY to God as Jesus Himself taught them.

the evidence is indisputable. It is a sin to pray to anyone or anything but God.

May the spirit of the Lord Guide you, Amen.

Why then do you continue the sin of praying to your pastor?

Idolatry! Idolatry!

adsonstone: Well, I don't plan on teaching you because I believe you know these things....by the way, I know the history of both the church to a very good extent not in its entirety.

You made a point which I really like which reads:
'The teachings and practises of the Church have essentially always been the same...though not entirely.' The fact that you did not say 'The Catholic Church.'

I can call it anything. Church or Catholic Church. There is no difference.

adsonstone: I'll like to draw your attention to something (though I know you may not agree). The church Jesus established wasn't a Catholic Church. It was (generally) the Christian Church where the teaching and practise today is exactly the same as what Christ as his Apostles taught and practised when it started out.

Stop this display of obstinacy in ignorance. Read about the origin of the word "Catholic."

mufikings: "Wherefore God also hath highly exalted him, and given him a name which is above every name: That at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, of things in heaven, and things in earth, and things under the earth" -Philippians 2:9,10

Listen to any Roman Catholic worship service and all you will hear is Mary, Mary, Mary! The Bible teaches that ONLY the name of Jesus Christ should be exalted, for there is NO salvation in any other name...

"Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved." -Acts 4:12

The thought of intercession through Mary?

There is absolutely nothing in the Bible teaching such foolishness. God never instructs us to recite anything; on the contrary, God condemns such practices...

"But when ye pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do..." -Matthew 6:7

Seriously !!!!

You said it is a sin to tell someone to pray for me. That I must go to Jesus directly.

You think we shouldn't repeat prayer.

Let me sin again!

Mufiking, pray for me.

Mufiking, pray for me.

Mufiking, pray for me.

That is a sin, abi.

My friend, I pray you get wiser than this.

adsonstone: @Italo.

A final question for you which calls for no debate or whatever.

Does the present day Catholic Church teach and practice exactly what Jesus taught and practised when He was on earth (I just need a response)?

The teachings and practises of the Church have essentially always been the same...though not entirely. The teachings and practices of the church have nothing contrary to that at the beginning. It is impossible for the Church to have entirely the same teachings because the Holy Spirit continues to guide the Church to teach God's people.

Now my own question.

Why do you insist on teaching me Church and Bible history that you yourself dont know?

Ukuts gp: i can tell my pastor to pray for me being the servant of God. My pastor will then pray in the name of jesus for me. Now tell me when you say mary should pray for you, is she hearing ur plea? Is she alive? Can a dead person hear you? Or u want to tell me that mary did not die?
By the ways, cant i pray to God on my own? If i want to pray must i call on my pastor who is not there or my dead grandfather to pray for me when he cannot hear me at that time? As u people do always. You need to understand this things.
Pls answer me?

Your pastor is more dead than Mary. He is still struggling with sin daily.

Mary has moved on to life with God in heaven.

"He who lives and believes in me will never die."--Jesus Christ.

[quote author=m.k.o2005]Why should i be lying ? I got married to a roman catholic. I did the 4 months marriage course and i can tell you more of the things i heard from the teachers there ! Besides, we can see the evidences from ur coments and that of other rcc members on line !

God help us all[/quote]You are married, which means you either have kids or are expecting them soon. May God bless your marriage.

But please, dont teach those little ones to tell cheap lies like this. God will be upset with that.

No Catholic told you he/she doesn't believe in the Bible. Please provide evidence!

Did you marry in the Catholic Church?

[quote author=m.k.o2005]Roman catholic's meaning of catholic isn't universally believing in Christ but universally believing in the rcc doctrine which is very clear to all even the roman catholics as contrary to the bible ! It is only the rcc i know who claim to be Christians and tell me they do not believe in scriptures as written in the bible !

God help us[/quote]Please supply evidence of the bold...that we might know who the liar is.

adsonstone: That was an error which anyone could have made.
That's the reason for my 'sorry' that began the
post.

Yes, I am aware that happened but do you know that the books that were removed still exist in some bible versions so anyone going for a good study will study them too.

Lol...my friend, go and read about the history of the bible and stop wasting my precious time.

adsonstone: Jesus (and all churches that preaches Jesus' messages without alterations and additions) is the foundation and pillar of the truth and not the catholic church as you claim.

The Holy Spirit says "Church." You say "all churches..."

I leave you to the Holy Spirit.

adsonstone: And now, these final words shows you have resorted to insulting comments like the ones who are ignorant and perhaps, negligent of clear reasons which I believe you are not one.

Sorry if it sounded insulting. But I genuinely believe that you are talking before learning and thinking over these things which you are ignorant about.

I dont know how else to put it...neither do I see the insult in that.

Learn before you teach.

cntabs: Y av d catholic guys been ignoring enigma? D guy has some points

Because we have known him over time to be a dubious and double mouthed debater.

E.g he answers questions that dont threaten his position but when you ask him a question that will prove him wrong, he will say or do anything in the world but answer that question.

Another example: he quotes one line in St. Ignatius letter to prove his point. When I quote the continuation of the letter to prove that he deliberately twisted the meaning of that one line, he simply says "wetin concern me."

Many many examples like that...

Will you honestly advise us to argue with such a person?

[quote author=m.k.o2005]I can see now that it is with lies and misquoting that you try to correct people ba ? God help us all

God help me[/quote]Sorry, it was mufikings and ukuts gp, not you.

Why dont you correct them that asking people to pray for you is not a sin, child of God.

You leave them to continue in ignorance while taking up issues with Catholics.

I told you, you were just a fanatic.

You just attack what you dont like.

What matters to you is not what's right or wrong.

adsonstone: Sorry, the initial wasn't supposed to be my response because it was after the compilation.
Martin Luther did and it was in the 16th century by the same authority the catholic church had to compile it.

I see that you are talking before learning and thinking things over.

The Catholic Church inspired by the Holy Spirit compiled it by the Authority Given the Church by Jesus. How can Jesus and the Holy Spirit make the Church include the books and make Martin Luther remove them. Do you think God is a confusionist like you and Martin Luther.

Do you know that Martin Luther once removed the book of James because it didnt agree with his false doctrine, only to include it later in his version?

Is it God that is authorizing that anarchy?

adsonstone: You are in a better position to answer your initial question because you are a catholic. However, if the Catholic church never bothered to compile these scriptures, others would have done it.

The Catholic Church compiled the Bible with the inspiration of the Holy Spirit because it is the pillar and foundation of truth. If not it could not have compiled God's inerrant book.

The Church is the pillar and foundation of truth.

When it tells us that a writing is true, we believe.

When it tells us that a teaching is true, we believe.

Okay?

So stop talking until you know what you are talking about.

As for whether other would have compiled it, this just goes to expose your ignorance on this matter the more.

Just keep quiet when you're ignorant of something...or ask those who know.

That is not a sin.

[quote author=m.k.o2005]See my quote below and know when you have sinned especially if you do the highlighted :

''If i want you ukut gp to pray for me, i dnt think i will start by worshiping,praising,adoring,hailing,bowing or even equating you with Christ ! If i do all that,it will only mean i am praying to you and not wanting you to intercede on my behalf !
Some times i urge some of my brothers or even sisters to pray with me concerning an issue and one can also ask his/her pastor to pray for him but not to start hailing the pastor,praising the pastor,worshiping the pastor,equating the status of the pastor to Christ as in calling him 'a mediator or mediatrix',or the creator of the heavens and earth or even the great king or queen of heaven ''

God help us[/quote]According to you, it is a sin to ask anyone to pray for you. It doesnt matter how you say it. Jesus wants you to go to him directly.

Why do you continue this ignorance and sin?

[quote author=m.k.o2005]If i want you ukut gp to pray for me, i dnt think i will start by worshiping,praising,adoring,hailing,bowing or even equating you with Christ ! If i do all that,it will only mean i am praying to you and not wanting you to intercede on my behalf !
Some times i urge some of my brothers or even sisters to pray with me concerning an issue and one can also ask his/her pastor to pray for him but not to start hailing the pastor,praising the pastor,worshiping the pastor,equating the status of the pastor to Christ as in calling him 'a mediator or mediatrix',or the creator of the heavens and earth or even the great king or queen of heaven

God help us[/quote]But you said it is ignorance to ask anyone to pray for you.

You said Jesus wants us to come directly.

You said it was a sin.

Why are you continuing in this "sin" and "ignorance?"

Ukuts gp: now tell me. Are they doing according to the bible that they claim that they compiled? If only that is true.

First agree that they compiled it or tell us who did.

Ukuts gp: so if i am making intercessary prayer for you. What name will i use. My pastor's name or the name of Jesus? Answer me.

The same name Mary will use when she is making intercessory prayer for me.

But wait, I thought you considered intercession a sin. You people said we must go directly to Jesus.

You people are obviously confused.

Which one is it?

Intercession is a sin or not?

rickymartin: you do realize that, following this line of reasoning, one can pray through any biblical character, say, Jehoshaphat, after all, there is nowhere in the bible that God said do not pray through Jehoshaphat.

Through anyone the Church has identified as a Saint...meaning we are sure that the person in with God in heaven.

adsonstone: I'm sure some books were have been removed. 7 books or thereabout..

How does this make any sense?

I said:

So if you are not really sure who compiled the bible or when, how are you sure the compilers didnt include books that were not inspired and exclude inspired books?

I once again put it to you that the Bible was compiled by the Catholic Church in the 4th century. If the Catholic Church wasn't inspired by the Holy Spirit to do this, the Bible cannot be trusted. If you disagree please answer the above question.

Also, since you are sure that some books were removed, who removed them, when were they removed...and by what authority were they removed?

adsonstone: By the way, I did not answer the second question that reads 'If even the writer, Paul, had to go to the Church to be sure he wasn't writing error, why should you the believe the letter and doubt the Church that guides the author of the letter?'

Because you did not establish your fact for saying that. I did not learn that. I'll like you to show me where you saw that.

Gal 2: 1, 2.

[quote author=m.k.o2005]Your above is just perfect for pope Francis concerning gays ! He should tell the gays,atheists including Muslims the truth and not by hiding under the cover of 'Love message' and 'j[b]udge not[/b]' making the world a better place to go to hell from

God help us[/quote]I see you want us to deviate entirely from the topic of the thread.

You're just here to oppose Catholicism, not to address the topic. I'm not even sure you've read the OP.

Fanatics like you have no regard for reason. You just attack what you dont like. ..good or bad.

Ukuts gp: dont mind him. U dont have to waist ur time with him. He will never learn

Ukuts gp, pray for me.

I have sinned abi?

You need to look in the mirror to find who "will never learn."

mufikings: "Come to me, all you who are weary and burdened, and I [/b]will give you rest. Take [b]my yoke upon you and learn from me, for I am gentle and humble in heart, and you will find rest for your souls. For my yoke is easy and my burden is light."

—Matthew 11:28-30

“‘My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me. I give eternal life to them. They will never perish, and no one will snatch them out of my hand.’” —John 10:27-28

Bro you don't need mother Mary " for crying out loud" to accompany you to go to the father, Christ is your final sacrifice and atonement for redemption, forgiveness ,..... "made joint heirs " one with him i can go on and on........Please stop this ignorance.

If I give you permission to come to me through Mr X ,and made it clear that you can only do this through Mr X, the mere thought of asking Mr Y to accompany you is clear " disobedience or ignorance" its that simple.

God !!!

Jesus Christ wants me to come to him directly abi?

So It means going to him with "Mr Y" is a sin abi.

Okay I want to commit sin right now.

Mufikings, please pray for me.

That is a sin abi?

My friend, you need to look in the mirror before you use the word "ignorance."