₦airaland Forum

Again and again, the timeless letter of St. Ignatius proves to the world that your claim that anywhere 2 or 3 are gathered is the Catholic Church...is nothing but a LIE.

Here is our dialogue on this thread: https://www.nairaland.com/1101186/catholics-really-wants-make-heaven/2

Notice how you refused to pay attention to the rest of the chapter I posted and even refused to acknowledge it. More importantly, notice how you shamelessly fled after seeing your lies debunked.

Enigma: Bros, if we are speaking of the catholic Church, then it is very simple and we know it from two important sources, one human and one divine.

Ignatius who coined and originated the expression "catholic" meant "universal and complete" and thus he said that wherever Jesus is there is the catholic church.

Jesus said said 'where two or three are gathered in my name, there I am in the midst of them'. Thus anywhere you see two or three honestly gathered in Jesus' name ---- you see the catholic Church. in other words the catholic Church is the Christian Church.

There is something that two organisations are fighting over --- that is the "Catholic Church". The Roman Catholic Church claims that it is the "Catholic Church". The Eastern Orthodox say no and claim that they are the genuine "Catholic Church". Hence their name: "Orthodox Catholic Church." However, they are even a little more honest in that they recognise that as there is a schism between them and the Roman Catholic church, it is then questionable to speak of the "Catholic Church".

The Roman Catholic Church needs to be more honest! What it is simply doing is claiming for itself what every one else did. Even things done by people who more properly belong to the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Roman Catholic church is claiming.

Anyway, the main point foryour question is that the catholic Church is the Church of Christ, the Body of Christ ---- and it seen wherever two or three are gathered in Jesus' name.

italo: Enigma. Is it that you have been fooled by the lies of protestantism or you are just as dubious as they are?

You picked just one phrase in Chapter 8 of a 13-Chapter letter which St. Ignatius wrote to the Smyrnaeans. Now let us look into Chapter 8 and see if Ignatius meant what you say he means.

"See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. It is not lawful without the bishop either to baptize or to celebrate a love-feast; but whatsoever he shall approve of, that is also pleasing to God, so that everything that is done may be secure and valid."

Do you see what Ignatius is stressing from the beginning of the Chapter to the end? FOLLOWING THE BISHOP and the clergy... And he doesn't mean 'follow him from place to place", he means obey him; don't do anything without his approval. He gives examples: "As Christ follows the Father", "As you would follow the Apostles." And when he says "Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude [of the people] also be; even as, wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church," he means The Catholic Church always follows Christ's commands, as he expects the multitude to obey the Bishop.

Furthermore, he rubishes your claim that The Catholic Church is present anywhere two or three are gathered in Jesus name by making reference to the structure of The Catholic Church - "bishops", "priests", "deacons". "Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is [administered] either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it."

My good friend, Enigma. Your dear St. Ignatius doesn't think The Catholic Church is where two or three are gathered. You are WRONG.

Enigma: ^^^ You can put whatever spin you like on it but the fact is that

(a) Ignatius said where Jesus is there is the "catholic" i.e. the universal Church*

(b) Jesus said 'where two or three are gathered together in my name, there I am in the midst of them'

Well, it is not difficult to put 2 and 2 together . . . .

*The other first part of that his statement was simply calling the members of each church assembly to unite to their bishops ---- not some monolithic "structure" as such. And yes, his conception of "catholic" encompasses unity but sees each church under its bishop as complete and part of the universal i.e. the catholic Church.

italo: @ Enigma,
I see! You love St. Ignatius' letter so much, but only one phrase of it. The phrase you can easily twist to be what you want it to be without looking at the broader context of what your dear Saint is talking about.

How can two or three gathered be the Catholic Church when Ignatius says do nothing without the approval of your Bishop. Which Bishop approved the two or three gathered at Synagogue, RCCG, Christ Embassy, etc?

But shamefully, you don't believe any other part of his letter.

Perhaps you might also be of the opinion that we should cut off our body parts if they cause us to sin, because Jesus says so.

You're just as hypocritical as the rest of them.

Enigma: ^^^ Thank you.

christemmbassey: we have not settled the issue of who compiled d bible,

The so-called "Pastor Kun" and every truthful person who knows Christian history, including Martin luther who was against the Catholic Church, accept that the Catholic Church compiled the Bible. That's why I'm taking Pastor Kun up on it. You can believe that it is the Nigerian government that compiled the Bible or that the Bible just fell from the sky one Sunday morning. That is your unfortunate business.

christemmbassey: because in this thread some guy emphatically disputed d RCC claim, with all due respect,

That guy emphatically lied. I have known him for persistent lying and even when you disprove his lies, he just keeps repeating the lies. That's why I ignored him.

[quote author=christemmbassey]the activities of the RCC has really made believers to question most of their claims.

What ACTIVITIES has led "believers" to question what CLAIMS?

And when you say "believers", BELIEVERS in what?

christemmbassey: How can the rcc be involved in the writting/compilation of the bible with such a high degree display of canality and idolatory? Bro it doesnt add-up. The canal mind/man can not understand the things of the Spirit. These ppl worship images of wond and stone, by their fruits you shall know them, rcc as it is today is a big disgrace to christianity, no offence intended plz.

When you say "worship"? What do you mean?

Because I am a Catholic and along with 1billion other Catholics, we know nothing of the crime you accuse us of.

Catholicism is Christianity so if Catholicism is a disgrace, Christianity is.

Maybe you should tell us the "HOLY" people that compiled the Bible and when they did it, if the Catholics didn't do it.

Pls answer my questions.

@ Chukwudi44,

Bear in mind that you are discussing with a man who happily quoted ONE line of St. Ignatius' letter to the Smirneans in order to argue against Catholicism. But when I pasted the WHOLE CHAPTER which contains the line, dismantling his argument, he ran away saying he didn't care what St. Ignatius said.

Anyway, I know you know him more than I do.

@ HerexG,

What kind of Christian are you. You never answer a question concisely and honestly. My question is:

Who gave Mary the honour you say she has in heaven? God or satan?

Zikkyy: So you believe the concept of infallibility is for our salvation? lol my brother, the pope no just want too much argument and i have to admit that it worked sha. if not the church would have been smaller today.

I meant that the reason I'm discussing infallibility with you is for our salvation...and not because I wanted no confusion, like you said.

And it isn't the pope that wanted it that way. Which of the popes? Was it a pope that said "whoever hears you hears me?" Was it a pope that said "what ever you bind or loose on earth is bound/loosed in heaven?"

Zikkyy: YES. That's my position. The Holy Spirit will guide only if you allows it to. Everybody says they are being guided by the spirit, and we have all sort of practices from Catholic - Anglican - petecostals - 'cele' - JW; who do i believe.

Believe the one Jesus founded 2000yrs ago and gave the Holy Spirit to guide it to all truth. Believe the one that has being passed down to us by the apostles to the present day through an unbroken line of apostolic succession. Believe the one that can never teach you error...and so far, only the Catholic Church even dares to claim to be infallible. Why should you follow someone who admits that he could be wrong afterall?

Zikkyy: There is that possibility that the RCC could be wrong on other issue, that is not to say i don't agree with the church on a lot of issues. for e.g i am not likely to disagree with the church on practices that aligns with my interpretation of biblical texts or were practiced by the early church. Please be reminded that the NT texts was already in use by early Christians prior to compilation so no fear that the authenticity, authorship or source of inspiration of the books will be called into question. To be honest, what's the guarantee that some of these books were written by these authors? and what's the guarantee that some books were not left out? acceptance is not because the Church cannot make mistake.

I don't understand you here.

Are you saying you trust the authenticity of the books of the Bible because they were in use by the early Christians...?

Or are you saying you DON'T trust the authenticity of the books of the Bible?

You seem to be confused here.

If acceptance is NOT because of the infallibility of the Church, then what is your acceptance based on?

Zikkyy: No, i don't. i try to make my practice as simple as possible without introducing unnecessary complexities.

"Unnecessary complexities?!" What if your "simple practice" is against Gods teaching?

Jesus said "unless you eat my flesh and drink my blood, you have no life in you."

Some say eating his "flesh" and "blood" merely means to believe in him.

Others say it is eating "bread" and drinking "wine" which are mere SYMBOLS of his body and blood.

The Catholic Church says it is receiving the ACTUAL body, blood, soul and divinity of Christ in the Holy Eucharist which only remains under the appearance of bread and wine after consecration by a Catholic priest during mass.

What is your "simple practce" about this?

And are you not worried that if your simple practice is not God's teaching, you might not have life in you?

(Considering that your fallibility means you can NEVER be certain if your position is God's teaching)

Zikkyy: I see this as one of those unnecessary complexities. what is my business with purgatory. My brother am interested in the final destination and not some imaginary bus-stop deduced from some ancient practices.

What you call "unnecessary complexity" was revealed to us by God.

1Cor 3:15 says: "If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames."

Read the passage and tell me where one will be saved as one escaping through fire. Heaven?! There is no fire in heaven. Hell?! No one will be saved from hell. So if not Purgatory, where and how?

God said "man shall not live by bread alone, but by EVERY WORD that comes out of the mouth of God."

Zickky says: "not every word. Some of God's words are "unnecessary complexities."

Zikkyy: I don't think we should compare Church leadership of today to Christ (or even the apostles). Christ was talking about himself so how is it possible he will be wrong?

Maybe you should try telling this to Jesus. Just look at what he said:

Matt 16:18 And I tell you that you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not overcome it. 19 I will give you the keys of the kingdom of heaven; whatever you bind on earth will be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth will be loosed in heaven.”

And this power didn't end with the apostles...Jesus said "MY CHURCH"...and his Church has not ended. He also said:

Matt28:19 Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, 20 and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

"...TO THE VERY END OF THE AGE..."

Are the apostles still baptizing and teaching?

So who will he "be with" until the end?

Answer: their successors - the Church.

@ HerexG,

You say God didn't honour Mary...

...Then you say "her honour is in heaven..."

Who gave her the honour in heaven?

God or satan?

Zikkyy: I do not claim to be infallible, neither do I claim that the protestants are infallible. I also do not believe that the RCC is infallible.

So you can never be sure that you are practising God's true faith and doctrine... Don't you shudder at the implication of that?

Zikkyy: And when we don't agree It's either;
The church is right and zikkyy is wrong or,
The church is wrong and zikkyy is right or,
We are both right or
We are wrong.

If, for example, you disagree with the Church teaching on purgatory, saying purgatory doesn't exist. You cannot be both right. Only one party can be saying the truth.

Zikkyy: You want us to submit to the teachings of the church to ensure there is no confusion. What happens if the church is wrong?

The only motivation for my saying all I'm saying is not for the eradication of confusion...but for your salvation and mine.

The Catholic Church says it cannot teach error because the Holy Spirit guides it to teach God's truth and prevents it from teaching error. So if the Catholic Church is wrong on even ONE teaching, it means that the above statement is a untrue. It means the Catholic Church could be wrong about any other issue, including: the canon of New Testament which you hold as scripture, its authenticity, authorship, source of inspiration of the books etc... And if all these can be called into question, then Christianity itself is questioned and we are all in danger of being doomed.

Also, talking about infallibility/fallibility...

The Protestant position against the infallibility of the Catholic Church is not tenable. Any Protestant who claims to be infallible is guilty of the very same thing he accuses the Catholic Church of. Any Protestant who claims to be fallible can never be sure of his/her position on any doctrinal matter so he/she cannot claim with certainty that the Catholic Church is wrong.

Zikkyy: I do not claim any right or wrong here.

To be clear, I didn't really mean that you claim to be right. I was making a general statement...perhaps, I didn't put it properly.

Zikkyy: The fact that billions continues to submit to the 'infallible' teachings of the RCC does not mean others will not disagree.

Of course, that is to be expected...and it is not a new thing at all. When many submitted to the infallible teachings of Jesus, many disagreed. When many submitted to the infallible teachings of the apostles (the first priests and bishops), many disagreed. The New Testament is full of instances where the apostles were warning the children of God to resist false teachers and their doctrines which were already present at that time. So we are not perturbed by Protestantism of today.

Zikkyy: And where the church is unable to provide convincing justifications for some of its teachings, there will always be opposition.

For example: the same way some of his own disciples opposed and left him when they felt he hadn't provided "convincing justification" for his teaching that they would have to eat his flesh and drink his blood to have life...

Opposition took no credit from Christ - the head; opposition takes no credit from the Church - his body.

Pastor Kun: I don't have a precise answer to your question as it doesn't make sense in the first instance. I know all scripture is inspired but I am not ready to go into a theological debate as per the compilation of the bible. All I would say is that the holy spirit is our final authority as christians and not the bible that men twist the way they like. Unfortunately most professing christians don't have the holy spirit in their lives.

This is one of the reasons why people have ZERO respect for "pastors." You call yourself "Pastor Kun" but have the "integrity" of a fraudster.

Any normal Christian should be proud to say that the Bible was compiled under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit but simply because you don't want to credit the Catholic Church, you are shamelessly evading the point.

Just look at this flimsy response of yours...

What is so ambiguous about the question that you cannot give a precise answer to?

Was the Bible compiled under the Holy Spirit?

It is either YES or NO.

There is no need for long dubious stories.

Pastor Kun: aren't both of you guys tired of this argument

@italo all you have to do is to show him scriptures to justify Mary worship, Veneration of saints and use of images, I am sure he would keep shut after that.

I remember asking YOU a question twice...and you ran away without attempting an answer. I was wondering if you were dead but thank God you are still alive. Now do you mind answering?

Was the Bible (which you have admitted was compiled by the Catholic Church in the 4th century) compiled under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit or satan?

Your answer will go a long way in curing his lunacy, thank you.

Let's hope you don't play 'deceased' again.

Zikkyy: The idea of the church leadership doing the interpretation makes a lot of sense but i am afraid it will not hold. I do agree there has to be some form of leadership to provide a direction (imagine millions of sheep running in different direction without a shepherd). what you are asking is that we leave our brains locked up in a vault when it comes to matters concerning interpretation of the bible (let the church do the interpretation). This could have been achieved if we never had access to the bible. Now that we can read, there is going to be questions.

Even after the "protestant reformation" in the 16th century, it has continued to HOLD for billions of Catholics...and we have also been reading the Bible. Before then, the reformers made people believe that more independent access to the Bible would enlighten them about the "truth" and the Catholic Church said independent interpretation of the Bible outside of Church teaching would lead to Heresy and anarchy. Just look at Christendom today and tell me who was right. If the protetants were right, then how many "truths" do we have? How many doctrines and how many faiths?

No matter how literate, intelligent or educated one is, he/she can never be certain that his/her understand of Christ's doctrine is ablutely correct without alligning with the infallible teaching of the Church. Just look at the other side: millions of different and contradictory doctrines all claiming to be the true doctrine taught by ONE Holy Spirit...but there can only be ONE true doctrine... So how do you know you are right and every other person is wrong.

I think you should re-read the story of Philip and the Ethiopian Eunuch.

Reyginus: To say that the bible derived its authority from the church that compiled it, is wrong. By that, you're saying that the bible is subject to the church. The word of God can never be subject to anybody or group.
Another thing is, no matter the means the God's word is passed, it can never contradict a former word. We can go on, the bible our final authority.

You seem to be forgetting that the Church is not just a any group but the household of God, the pillar and foundation of the truth, according to 1Tim 3:15.

How do we know that the Bible is the word of God? Is it Jesus that told us or the Church? If it was Jesus, can you provide the verse where Jesus mentioned the word Bible?

When Peter and Paul had a dispute, where did they turn to as final authority? Was it the Bible or the Church? If it was the Bible, provide the verse that says so.

Kay 17: The Hebrew Bible isn't the Bible.

Why you dey answer that trickster?

EMILO2STAY: ^^^ rubbish keep beating around the bush i have proved to you that the doctrine of your church is not the same with the bible.

You say the Catholic Church is of the devil...

You say the Bible is of the devil...

...And you are trying hard to prove that Catholic doctrine is different from Bible doctrine...

My dear, the only proof I need is proof that you are mentally sane because judging from what you have been typing, you are demented.

PROUDLY CATHOLIC!!!

EMILO2STAY: ^^^stop beating around the bush i have answerd all ur quetions but u havent answered mine.

You haven't answered several of my questions which will define what the Bible is before I can think of using the Bible to answer you questions. For now, you consider it as inspired by satan, I consider it as inspired by God. We are still miles apart.

When did satan include his word into God's word as you say?

Why did the producers of the KJV put satan's word in their "bible?"

Why do you consider Ezra, Nehemiah, Ecclesiastes, Esther and Song of Solomon as scripture when you think we should only consider books that Jesus quoted from as scripture?

EMILO2STAY: What are considered "scripture"
clearly excluded the Apocrypha
from both the Jewish community
and the Hebrew Christians of the
New Testament.

What is your proof?

[quote author=HerexG ]The ark of God represents God's as of then, that was the major reason Joshua bowed . Back then graven images are made mostly kept at the tabernacle for mediating purpose or as a sign of holiness.
Yes, the new creation in Christ need not to bow down to any graven image, because that mediator they seek now resides in them in the person of the Holy spirit .[/quote]You are saying in Joshua's day, it was okay to bow down to a graven image but in our day, it has become wrong.

Yes or No!

EMILO2STAY: The fact is neither Jesus nor
any of the Apostles ever quote the
Apocrypha as divine authority. What was considered "scripture" clearly excluded the Apocrypha from both the Jewish community and the Hebrew Christians of the New Testament.

Jesus and the Gospel writers referenced the Deuterocanonicals in the following instances:

Matthew 6:12, 14-15---"Forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors; if you forgive others their transgressions, your heavenly Father will forgive you. But if you do not forgive others, neither will your heavenly father forgive your transgressions."
Sirach 28:2---"Forgive your neighbor's injustice; then when you pray, your own sins will be forgiven."

Luke 1:17 (describing John the Baptist)---"He will go before him in the spirit and power of Elijah to turn the hearts of fathers towards children and the disobediant to the understanding of the righteous, to prepare a people fit for the Lord."
Sirach 48:10---"You are destined, it is written, in time to come, to put an end to wrath before the day of the Lord, to turn back the hearts of fathers towards their sons, and to re-establish the tribes of Jacob."

Luke 1:28, 1:42---"And coming to her, he said, 'Hail, favored one! The Lord is with you!'.....Most blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of your womb."
Judith 13:18---"Then Uzziah said to her: 'Blessed are you, daughter, by the Most High God, above all the women of the earth; and blessed be the Lord God, the Creator of heaven and earth.

Luke 1:52---"He has thrown down the rulers from their thrones, but lifted up the lowly."
Sirach 10:14---"The thrones of the arrogant God overturns, and establishes the lowly in their stead."

Luke 12:19-20---"I shall say to myself, 'Now as for you, you have so many good things stored up for many years, rest, eat, drink, be merry!' But God said to him, 'You fool, this night your life will be demanded of you; and the things you have prepared, to whom will they belong?'"
Sirach 11:19---"When he says: 'I have found rest, now I will feast on my possessions,' he does not know how long it will be till he dies and leaves them to others."

Luke 18:22---"When Jesus heard this, he said to him, 'There is still one thing left for you: sell all that you have and distribute it to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven.'"
Sirach 29:11---"Dispose of your treasure as the Most High commands, for that will profit you more than the gold."

John 3:12---"If I tell you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?"
Wisdom 9:16---"Scarce do we guess the things on earth, and what is within our grasp we find with difficulty; but when things are in heaven, who can search them out?"

John 5:18---"For this reason the Jews tried all the more to kill him, because he not only broke the Sabbath, but he also called God his own Father, making himself equal to God."
Wisdom 2:16---"He judges us debased; he holds aloof from our paths as from things impure. He calls blest the destiny of the just and boasts that God is his Father."

John 10:29---"My Father, who has given them to me, is greater than all, and no one can take them out of the Father's hand."
Wisdom 3:1---"But the souls of the just are in the hand of God, and no torment shall touch them."

Paul and James allude to them as well:

Romans 2:11---"There is no partiality with God."
Sirach 35:12---"For he is a God of justice, who knows no favorites."

Romans 9:21---"Or does not the potter have a right over the clay, to make out of the same lump one vessel for a noble purpose andanother fo an ignoble one?"
Wisdom 15:7---"For truly the potter, laboriously working the soft earth, molds for our service each several article: both the vessels that serve for clean purposes, and their opposites, all alike; as to what shall be the use of each vessel of eiother class, the worker in clay is the judge."

Romans 11:24---"For who has known the mind of the Lord, or who has been his counsellor?"
Wisdom 9:13---"For what man knows God's counsel, or who can conceive what the Lord intends?"

1 Thessalonians 2:16---"(The enemies of Christ persecute us), trying to prevent us from speaking to the Gentiles that they may be saved, thus constantly filling up the measure of their sins. But the wrath of God has finally begun to come upon them."
2 Maccabees 6:14---"Thus, in dealing with other nations, the Lord patiently waits until they reach the full measure of their sins before he punishes them; but with us he has decided to deal differently"

James 1:13---"No one experiencing temptation should say, 'I am being tempted by God'; for God is not subject to temptation to evil, and he himself tempts no one."
Sirach 15:11-12---"Say not: 'It was God's doing that I fell away'; for what he hates he does not do. Say not: 'It was he who set me astray'; for he has no need of wicked man."

James 5:2-3---"Your wealth has rotted away, your clothes have become moth-eaten, your gold and silver hav corroded, and that corrosion will be a testimony against you; it will devour your flesh like a fire."
Judith 16:17---'The Lord Almighty will requite them; in the day of judgement he will punish them: he will send fire and worms into their flesh, and they shall burn and suffer forever."

Now, of course, you may say that these don't sound like exact quotes, and you'd be right; but there are thousands of allusions in the New Testament from the Old, both Deuterocanon and not, which are not exact quotes. Romans 11:34, for example, also has an allusion to Job 15:8, but ironically the allusion to Wisdom 9:13 is closer in actual wording to it than Job is. And, of course, if you want to get into loose allusions, we could expand the above list to ten times the size it is. Then there are also the cases of outright error in some New Testament quotes, such as Matthew 27:9, in which Matthew quotes "the prophet Jeremiah", when the allusion is actually found nowhere in Jeremiah but rather in Zecheriah 11:12-13.

There is also the case of some Old Testament books not being quoted by Jesus in the New Testament: He didn't quote from Ezra, Nehemiah, Esther, Ecclesiastes, or the Song of Solomon. And yet they are still considered to be canonical Scripture even though He did not reference them.

@ Emilo2stay,

These verses in 2Maccabees that you say are lies from satan were also put into the KJV. Why would the people who produced the KJV put satan's word in between God's word. What does it matter, whether they put it between, on top, under, inside etc, the fact is they put it in the Bible. Why put satan's word in the Bible?

My early Church fathers say the Bible, as they gave it to us is God's word. It is YOU who say satan's word was put in between God's word. So it is you who has to tell us when satan put his word into God's word.

EMILO2STAY: haha...look who's talking, the one who cant defend his catholic doctrine using the bible and u keep showing up here shamelessly.

Which "Bible" do you want me to use to defend Catholic doctrine? The same Bible you say is satan's book..?

EMILO2STAY: Let me also repeat myself, i said the catholic church added lies to the bible which are contained in the apocrypha.

Tell us the lies that were added (book, chapter and verse).

Tell us when they were added.

Tell us if those lies were inside the deuterocanonical books that the King James Bible originally had.

EMILO2STAY: The king james translators also rejected the apocrypha as divine.

YOU reject it - saying it is from satan. Why then did the King James people have satan's books in their Bible at all?

@ HerexG, stop beating around the bush.

You are saying that before Christ, it was okay to bow down to graven images, but after Christ its no more okay.

Yes or No!

Neddivine: it is clear that u are looking for quick escape by quoting the bible out of context.what does Joshua 7 have to do with idol worship of mary being debated.Everyone reading this should try and read joshua 7 through and u see that this man fully knows he has no clue but just decided to fool us by adding scripture that is totally unrelated to the topic and praying hard to mary that we must not read it and find him out.That prayer failed.Youngman i put it to u simply, u have know clearly that u are doing wrong bowing and praying thru mary.God will surely ask u that day or u think this is all about winning an arguement? I don't intend to reply u no more cos I'm sure u now know but will keep arguing for just the pride of trying to win an arguement as u've been doing.If u convince me beyond doubt on bowing and praying thru Mary,u'll easily see how i'll humbly submit and declare it to all that i'm wrong.So hard for u to do.

You cannot distract me. My question remains "WHAT DID JOSHUA DO IN JOSHUA 7:6-9?"

Why are you ashamed to say it?

[quote author=HerexG ]Yes Joshua fell before the ark of God, why because the ark of God carries the presence of God but now we the new creation in Christ carry's that presence of God in us. You no longer need to bow down to any graved image including Mary. "To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:" (Colossians 1:27-27).[/quote]So you are saying it was okay to bow down to graven images in Joshua's day but it has become wrong in our day...

That is the meaning of your statement.

Reyginus: Okay. So, where do you suggest we begin?

You have talked about many instances where you THINK the Catholic Church is engaging in practices that are not in the Bible and contrary to Bible teachings.

No Catholic teaching or practice is contrary to Bible teaching - though you obviously disagree. However there are Catholic doctrines and practices that are not explicitly stated in the Bible... And there is nothing wrong in that. The Bible is not the final authority in matters of faith and doctrine. Even the Bible derives its authority from the authority of the Church that produced it. If the Catholic Church had no authority to create, compile and canonize the Bible, we wouldn't accept it as such. There is only one doctrine of our Lord Jesus Christ and the responsibility rests on the Church to interprete the Bible and teach us that doctrine. It is because you people feel that anyone can interprete the Bible any way you please that we now have millions of people teaching millions of different doctrines and claiming they are all from the ONE Holy Spirit.

Then again, God's word wasn't passed down to us ONLY by Sacred Scripture. It is also passed down by Sacred Tradition. That is why St. Paul said "brothers, hold fast to the TRADITION we have handed to you, either by written letter (books of the Bible) or by WORD OF MOUTH." So the Church recognizes God's word in Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition. Even the Bible, which you take as the final authority came from Church Tradition. Nowhere in Scripture were the Apostles or anyone else instructed to create or compile the Bible. The word "Bible" is not even mentioned in the Bible. Nowhere is anyone told to regard the Bible as the final authority in matters of faith and doctrine, so to say that something is wrong because its not in the Bible is unbiblical. Rather, the Bible says "the Church (not the Bible) is the PILLAR and FOUNDATION of truth. It is because we believe all these that we accept and believe when the Catholic Church told us that the book of Mark and Luke were written by Mark and Luke and that they were inspired by the Holy Spirit. Otherwise there is nothing in those books that suggests that those were the authors and they were inspired by the Holy Spirit so how do you know that?

I can go on to show - one by one - that in all the instances you raised, the Catholic Church is NOT going contrary to the Bible if you want me to start after reading all that I just said.

EMILO2STAY: the kjv bible did not contain the doctrine of mary worship, praying to dead saints etc. So the kjv bible was different from the catholic bible.

My clueless friend, why are you deliberately beating around the bush. I thought you were eager to address issues head-on. I guess you didn't think I would take your shameless lies and use them to convict you of stupidity.

Let me repeat myself for about the third time, perhaps this time, you will come out in the light and adress the issue I'm raising.

The KJV, like the Catholic Bible contained the Deuterocanonical books which you said were from the devil himself. That means that both Bibles are handiworks of satan.

How can the word of God be in satan's book?

you believe that God is capable of dwelling in you spiritualy...but you believe he is INcapable of dwelling in Mary physically.

you believe that God is capable of dwelling on earth spiritually but you believe he is INcapable of dwelling on the earth he created physically.

how arrogant!

God is more humble than you!

@ Herex G,

We will talk when you are ready to make sense.

Neddivine: Neddivine:
What did Joshua do in Joshua 7? Did he bow down to an idol or probably he bowed down to the statue of mary in your own bible and catholics probably said to follow his example.

What did Joshua do in Joshua 7?

Simple question.

That is your fallible opinion, which could be wrong. Or are you infallible?