₦airaland Forum

Ok Frosbel, we wait patiently for you repLIES.

truthislight: Just see the way you people just gather together dey spoil trinitarian and tithers their business!

Ugoamaka will report you people to the pope.

Hahahhahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahahahahaha!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

You are very funny!

frosbel: 1. If Jesus pre-existed, what did he pre-exist as

2. Why did the Spirit of the Son not overshadow Mary , why the Holy Spirit

3. Was the process of conception bypassed

4. How could God fit into a zygote

5. Why did GOD have to exalt Jesus if he pre-existed as GOD , why did he not just take his original position

6. If Jesus was begotten, when was he actually begotten

1. If Jesus did not pre-exist, when did he start to exist?

2. Who said the Holy Spirit is not the Spirit of the Son?

3. Wasn't the process of conception bypassed?

4. How could God fit in a burning bush?

5. Why are surprised that God exalted him after he 'didn't consider equality with God a thing to be grasped and emptied himself and became as a slave'?

6. If Jesus wasn't begotten, how did his existence begin and when?

alexleo: You are getting it all wrong. What you people are doing is confessing to a priest which is quite different from what we are saying. Read this post carefully my friend.

The OP is about RESTITUTION. And Penance, Temporal punishment and Purgatory are all about restitution. And you cannot separate them from restitution if you truly understand all of these.

Aha! There goes...

frosbel: It has to do with standing on the Word of GOD and not the words of MEN.

For example the catholic church like the Mormons cannot operate on Sola scriptura alone, their doctrines are heavy laden with tradition , which has corrupted the TRUTH and made it of no effect.

But there are people who say they operate by Sacred Scripture and Sacred Tradition and it is scriptural to do so. They even quote scripture to back their position. You say you go by Scripture alone and it is scriptural to do so. You also quote scripture to back your position. Who then has the authority to judge who is right between you and them? Should we just accept that they corrupted the truth because frosbel said so? Even though they also think you are corrupting the truth.

frosbel: I must be honest, in the past my views were with the majority such as tithe , trinity etc. However when I started to look into the bible to validate the factuality of these doctrines , scripture refused to support them and so I had to discard.

Others will disagree. They will say scripture supports them. They have their opinion; you have yours. What about God's opinion. Who can we trust to tell us?

frosbel: Our understanding of the bible must always be based on the truth of scripture , not the reasoning of Men.

But each man's understanding of what is the truth of scripture is based on his own reasoning. Who, among men then, has the authority to define God's opinion of truth?

ogoamaka99: Yes we can have our own opinion on religious issues because of differences in understanding. If you understand something, the way you believe and react will differ from the way somebody else believe and react. Surely you react over an issue based on your opinion. Take for instance tithe, why do some christian pay and some don't pay?

If you think that we can have our own opinions on religious issues, then aren't you in danger of hell fire. E.g The Bible says 'he who doesn't eat my flesh n drink my blood will not have life'. Some believe this flesh n blood is bread n wine dat turns into d real body n blood of Jesus n gives life. Odas blv it is jus bread n wine dats symbolic, not the actual body n blood dat gives life. Odas blv it is just having faith in Jesus. But Jesus means one thing. What if your opinion is different frm his own opinion? You will not have life...and u kno wat dat means.

truthislight: do you really think as christians, we should individually have our own opinion on religiouse issues or it is what the bible says that should have the final say?

Pls answer this question, no bad feeling please.

How do you know what the Bible says? Is it not your personal opinion that you end up declaring as what the Bible says? E.g if you read the Bible and deduce that Jesus is God; and Mr X reads the Bible and deduces that Jesus is not God, who is to judge who is right and who is wrong? Don't you judge based on personal opinion? So how is your position different from Ogoamaka's?

Please answer these questions. No hard feelings.

Aha! First, they accuse the Catholics, then they imitate what we do. You are so close to home...yet so far, unfortunately.

What you are talking about (perhaps without understanding it fully) is Penance, temporal punishment and Purgatory.

Read these up for your own good.

We will pay for every sin we commit, even if we are forgiven, either in this life or in the next.

We who believe in the Holy Trinity do NOT say that Jesus is NOT a prophet. We know that he WAS a prophet.

So this verse is NOT contrary to what we believe.

@ logicboy,

I don't mean to be rude, but permit me to keep avoiding any direct conversation with you. Experience has taught me that nothing good or worthwhile comes out of it. Very little logic, reasoning, decency and maturity; but much of insults, vulgarity and misplaced exuberance.

...And I hope that you will prove me right very quickly.

cyrexx: My apologies.

I'm just trying to drive home my point, i dont mean to be rude to you. Sorry.

It's okay. We all get too emotional sometimes.

plaetton: I perfectly understand where my ancestors were comming from. I understand the [b]philosophical underpinnings [/b]that shaped and moulded our ancestral traditions and religions. I respect them.
I cannot suscribe to them now because we now understand much more about the universe. The universe is much more complex and much more dynamic than my ancestors and the ancient hebrew ever imagined.

Funny enough, pretty much the same goes for me.

I perfectly understand where my ancestors were comming from. I understand the philosophical and SPIRITUAL underpinnings that shaped and moulded our ancestral traditions and religions. I respect them.
I cannot suscribe to them now because we now understand much more about the universe and its creator - GOD. The universe and GOD are much bigger than my ancestors ever imagined and much more universal than the ancient hebrew ever imagined.

Martian: This is not about those other people but Africans. If data is collected about education and the resultant progress it affords, I am sure that Africa will be dead last. Africa and the black diaspora's "peculiar" problem is the dearth of useful knowledge in the societies.

This isn't what the OP - or I - was arguing against.

Martian: Instead, we are inundated with images, sounds and rhetoric of primitive middle eastern superstitions and the fatalistic attitudes they promote.

Sorry, but my religion doesn't fall into that category. And I can only speak accurately about MINE.

Martian: This overt and excessive religiosity coupled with sub par governmental/societal instituitons and policies, don't afford for a conducive environment for the proliferation of the useful knowledge that humans need at this point in time.

I'd rather say "false and superficial religiousity." That's our problem, not true religion, I think. The same person who hears "love your neighbour as yourself" on Sunday morning will embezzle money meant for 160million people on monday morning. Europeans achieved so much progress with religion as the bedrock of their societies. E.g the current university system of education was invented by the Catholic Church. The first person that proposed what would become the big bang theory was even a Catholic priest. The great USA that we know today was built based on essentially Judeo-Christian principles.[/quote]

Martian: On this site, all these religious people have a problem with evolution and they will rather believe that some jewish magician created two original humans from clay. Of what use is the belief in Adam and Eve in the 21st century?
If the knowledge of the theory of evolution is widespread in the society, people will get interested the subject, which will lead to a better educated society. This in turn could lead to scientific advancements and a disease like malaria could be cured. That same knowledge of evolution could lead to better agricultural techniques better suited to the african clime. Better agriculture means better food, better food means a better nourished population etc etc

But people will rather fight this knowledge. Why?
Because the bible (some primitive and ignorant jews)said so.....and "Daddy G.O said....."

............f#ck it, let me get off my soap box.

My brother, I understand your concern, even though your accessment of all religions is inadequate. Let me put this straight: my Catholic faith is neither against evolution nor all the things you have mentioned above. The problem is that you don't know...and those businessmen who have perverted Christianity don't know. Evolution doesn't necessarily contradict my Catholic faith or the creation story in the Bible. We believe that faith and reason don't contradict each other. Only, you and many others DON'T know this.

Horus: Accepting an imported Alien Religion has killed our peoples minds!. The Black/African does not know the consequences of accepting AN ALIEN RELIGION. If a Black/African accepts Judaism and Christianity as his religion, he has accepted the Caucasian as his visible God. The same with Islam, if a Black/African person accepts Al Islam and its many branches as there religion, then it accepts the Desert Arab as his God. That person cannot have power over, or be equal to the Caucasian, or Arab because here, the Caucasian and the Arab has been accepted as the superior power, and this is why trying to obtain liberty and equality in Caucasian or Arab religion or any alien religion is a CRUEL HOAX! If you look at all of the so called Holy Books that our people are into, they all portray the image of someone other than self. There is not a face of Black/African people of any of these imported religions.

Well, I think in issues like this I can only speak accurately about MY religion. Being a Christian in no way indicates that those who 'brought' Christianity to us are superior. If anything, it emphasizes our equality. Talking specifically about Catholicism, Europeans evangelized Africa. They brought the religion, they brought Priests, the taught us the faith and built Churches etc. But now that Europeans are ever more secular and Atheistic, we are having to send priests from Africa to Europe to nourish them in the faith and keep the Church going. Many of the priests I see in Europe are Africans, especially Nigerians. Does that mean in anyway that we are now superior? No. Catholicism has taught me that every human being is my brother or sister because we are children of the same God and we are equal before him (even though we share a special and stronger bond with our fellow Catholic across every race and country in the world). When I see a Priest for example, I don't qualify him as white or black. The important qualification is that he is a Priest of God, representing Christ the Son. I think this idea that we might feel inferior can only come from someone who is outside the faith, like you. Not someone who's in it. Its your problem, not ours.

plaetton: Yeah yea yeah. I can see you meditating on a picture or image of dark skinned man with dreadlocks and native attire.
B.S.
And what make you think that the native carvings and images of our ancestors were not depictions of the African saints of this same one God of humanity?

What makes you think that they are?

plaetton: What makes the white man's version of divinity more truthful or superior to those of your ancestors?

What makes Atheism more truthful or superior to you than your ancestors' version of the story of the universe, its creator (or lack of it), spirituality (or lack of it) etc. It seems like you are also in mental slavery.

plaetton: The Op made points that were very touching.
I am sure you were touched, even moved to do what was natural to you. You came with your kindergarden logic,obviously in a bid to defend and justify your hostage situation.

Everyone is free with an opinion, but when you offer the rediculous as an opinion, I think I am allowed to tell you so.

...And I think I am allowed to tell you that something is not "ridiculous" only because you say so, or because it is contrary to your opinion.

plaetton: OMG!
I guess if every race is confused and have peculiar problems as Africans, then what's the need of complaining, right?
lets all say "all is well" and play ostrich, right?.

That is not what I think, nor is it what I am saying.

plaetton: Its like justifying failure by simply claiming that you are not the only one that failed.
Its like a thief shouting " I am innocent because we are many, sir".
He he he. Big lol

You have built an argument on my behalf, knocked it down by yourself and given a BIG LOL to yourself.

cyrexx: Many African citizens are still under colonialism - our minds are still colonised the white supremacists. That is why sheeps like italo will do anything to defend his white master' god and say nothing about his own African Gods.

If your body is enslaved, you can hopefully struggle to free you yourself from the slavery if there is chance.

But if your mind is enslaved, you will do everything do prevent your freedom and justify your slavery despite your opportunity for freedom.

Thats our problem in Africa. The white supremacists have done an excellent job of enslaving our minds. The rest is a piece of cake for them in controlling us

What have I said that warrants the rudeness?

Only because I differ with you?

plaetton: You see what We mean?. Despite how truthful and touching the Op's piece is, we have here a defender of the faith, a victim of Stolkholms syndrome quickly coming to defend , by infantile logic, what is truly indefensible.

What am i defending that is indefensible. You want me to just accept anything as "indefensible" just because you say so? I should accept anything as truthful only because you say so? Any opinion other than yours is not tenable?

Horus: Black people of the world, we need to rid ourselves of this pale white hippie image that has clouded our memory of who and what we are.
When you see these images and statues in the homes of friends and family, kindly ask them to remove it. You are not asking them to rid their beliefs, but rid themselves of the false images and race propaganda set against us as a people

As a Catholic, what do these images mean to me? It just brings my heart to God by meditating on his Son or Saint (as the case may be) when I look at the image. It in no way indicates that the race(s) of those Saints is/are superior to mine, rather it tells me that all humans of all races are God's children and are eligible to enjoy his grace if they make themselves available. Why should I get rid of them? No good reason!

If I may ask. Who and what are we?

My answer - God's children. Yours?

Martian: Are Africans Confused?

No, most are just delusinal and ill educated.

Largely, every race in the world is delusional ill educated.of course Africans have peculiar problems, but so does every other race.

When folks refuse the authority and interpretation of the Church that gave us the Bible - the one which was founded by Jesus Christ 2000yrs ago, this is what they get. Anarchy and possible doom.

30000 so-called denominations, millions of so-called non-denominational Christians and interpretations of ONE doctrine is not what God wants.

I'm sorry for being so blunt.

ghazzal: my friend, you need to know that God never stoped watching man. so if truely the Quran is by God, then the answer to your Question is known. i think if you really care to know, you will seek for reason to believe the Quran is from God (1 of the reasons i believe it is from God is that it has history you cant find anywhere else - story of Abraham, Adam, Moses...).
I had to point that out cos @italo Quoted from the Quran with a wrong notion and ignorance.

Personally I think the Quran is a fraud and it is from the devil. I believe Mohammed is an imposter. He is NO prophet of God, only an agent of the devil...and among my reasons are:

The Quran calls Jesus a prophet of God and encourages Muslims to believe in the scriptures of Jews and Christians. And a prophet/scriptures of God wouldn't teach lies. Let us even assume Jesus is only a prophet as Mohammed said. It would mean that Jesus didn't teach lies. In the Bible, Jesus calls himself the Son of God...and God. Thomas called him God and he didn't rebuke Thomas. Then Muslims say that the Bible and the Jewish scriptures have been corrupted. When we say give us the original, the one Mohammed read from, they can't give us. If you don't have the original, how can you tell that my copy is fake? If you have never seen the scriptures, how can you read it...much less believe it - as Mohammed told you to.

Secondly, when I look at the life of the man, and what he inculcated into his followers, its clear that he was nothing close to a prophet.

And please, let's not go into details of that liar's life and teachings... It will do you no good.

And it can get a fatwa on my head.

ghazzal: did you not also read in the Quran that some people sold the message for a small price(worldly gain). go back to the inception of christianity, a little after"jesus left" what was the different positions and why. it will be a good study for all christians.... remember that you have just 1 life with a choice to save it.

So if the message was SOLD (past tense - which means it happened before the Quran was written), why does Mohammed then write:

"Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (WHICH ARE) with them" (7:157 MP).

Note that the present tense indicates that The Torah and Gospel were with Jews and Christians at the time Mohammed was writing the Quran. They hadn't been "sold", as you put it.

Which are the "Torah and the Gospel which ARE WITH THEM (Jews and Christians)" in Mohammed's time? Since Mohammed said he believed in the earlier scriptures, it means he must have been reading it. Can you then tell us where to get a copy of the scriptures. Or did Mohammed throw away his copy...and that of all the other Muslims who were reading it and believed it? All over the world, not a single Muslim had ONE copy of this scripture which they read and believed? I find that very dubious.

Logicboy03: [img]http://i.qkme.me/35z5vg.jpg[/img]

Without religion, why would murder be evil?

@ Vedaxcool,

Are you trying to prove to us that Islam is a religion of peace?

Lol...

Bernd2: HUMAN IS FISH, ISLAM IS WATER. COME TO WATER AND BE RELAX... IF YOU WANNA BELİEVE TO GOD, YOU MUST BELİEVE TRUE RELİGİON. ISLAM DİD NOT CHANGE BUT OTHER RELİGİONS CHANGED. SO FUTURE IS ISLAM, ISLAM IS LOVE, HUMANITY AND FRIENDSHİP RELİGİON. WİTH MY BEST WİSHES...

Go and recite this your poem to the 14 year old Muslim girl who was shot by Muslims in Pakistan, only because she wants to go to school.

You will find her in a UK hospital where the same "infidels" who you are always looking for ways to kill are trying to save her life.

For you who doesn't believe in God, why are you so worried about death and God? Isn't all of life just an accident anymore?

Why are you worried that people get killed by accident and some believe in God by accident. How can there be "wickedness" if everything in life is a meaningless accident.

Much ado about nothing! Isn't it?

Africans are not the only confused people. The whole of humanity is confused.

All people speak languages other than their own. E.g the Jews spoke Greek.

All people wear styles other than their own. E.g White women go to surgery just to look curvy like African women.

God does not belong to one particular group of people.

All people go to temples other than their own. E.g Susanne Wenger, a 94 year old Austrian is the High Priestess of the river god Osun, in Nigeria.

All people wear clothes that are not their own. I've recently seen Lady Gaga appear in an outfit like that of Muslim women from the middle east.

And all these have little to do with religion. You're just looking for a feeble reason to bash religion.

If people are going to war because of their differences, you blame religion. If people are copying and embracing these differences, you blame religion.

Try harder next time though.

Atheists can possibly go to heaven...though it's very unlikely. It depends on the circumstances and what was really in their hearts.

I'm not talking about those of the who knowingly reject and persecute God. By rejecting God, they have rejected heaven.

F00028: when you are on the side of truth you never need to manoeuvre.

it calls it "injeel" and it is specifically the revelation given to the Son of Mary not one according to mark or john.

if you take a red letter bible,only that part in red would be considered injeel if they are actually the words of Jesus. and that's what's referred to in the verses you quoted.

"O ye who believe! Believe in Allah and His Apostle, and the scripture which He hath sent to His Apostle and the scripture which He sent to those before (him). Any who denieth Allah, His Angels, His Books, His Apostles, and the Day of Judgement, hath gone far, far astray" (4:136 AYA).

That is a command to Muslims from the Quran. What is the "scripture which He sent to those before him (Mohammed)"? And which are the "Books" Mohammed is referring to there. Do you believe in them as the Quran told you to?

"We believe in Allah, and in what has been revealed to us and what was revealed to Abraham, Ismail, Isaac, Jacob, and the Tribes, and in (the Books) given to Moses, Jesus, and the Prophets, from their Lord: We make no distinction between one and another among them" (3:84 AYA).

What are the books given to Moses, Jesus and the Prophets? Who are the "Prophets"? Why does the Quran say "their Lord" if it is the same God?

"Those who follow the Messenger (Mohammed), the Prophet who can neither read nor write, whom they will find described in the Torah and the Gospel (which are) with them" (7:157 MP).

Which are the "Torah and the Gospel which ARE WITH THEM (Jews and Christians)" in Mohammed's time? Is it not the same Gospels according to Matthew, Mark, Luke and John? If not, show me the Gospel Mohammed is talking about. Let us read it together.

"And when there cometh unto them (Jews) a Scripture (the Qur'an) from Allah, confirming that in their possession" (2:89 MP).

What Scripture was in the possession of the Jews at the time of Mohammed?