₦airaland Forum

plappville: The Catholic is full of idolatry period, what are you defending each time?

Haven't you noticed that I have been avoiding direct conversations with you? I am doing so because anytime we talk, you don't make sense to me and I always end up using very harsh words.

Why don't you let me talk to people who I feel are worth discussing with.

Please help me so that I won't have to insult you. I am trying to safeguard my soul.

Thank you.

@ Ijawkid

Sorry, I meant Gal 3:1:

"You foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you? Before your very eyes Jesus Christ was clearly portrayed as crucified."

How was Jesus portrayed as crucified before the eyes of the Galatians?

ijawkid: Zikkky my bro...are you a catholic??....

I'm just having a nice discussion with my brothers...that aint bad....

For me it is not a nice discussion o, pardon me. I can't be having a "nice discussion" when I think someone is being hypocritical with issues that can make or mar other people's souls.

Just read Matthew 23 to see what Jesus had to say about hypocrites.

I think those were some of Jesus' harshest comments and they weren't addressed to murderers or thieves or fornicators, not even to idol worshippers, they were addressed to hypocrites.

I have only love for everyone but hatred for sin and error.

ijawkid: I understood your post completely...and it didn't show me where the apostles made an image of the Cross and used it in worship.....

And for you to say the cross is the power of God is one big heresy......

The simple question I asked is:::::

Did the apostles carry around with them images of the cross or used the rosary in worship??did they have moulds of the cross??

You quoted so many scriptures and not one showed that....

You are trying to prove that you understood my post by you are only succeeding in showing that you still don't understand my post. You didn't even read it thoroughly so how can you understand. If this is the way I read the mis-read and misunderstand the Bible, perhaps I would be a 'Jehovah's witness' too.

Let me show that you didn't even read through my post.

Nowhere did I say that the cross is the power of God. I said St Paul said Christ crucified is the power of God. But you made up what you wanted to make up so that you can disprove it.

Perhaps you might want to tell me what was portrayed before the eyes of the Galatians in Gal 1:1...assuming it is not a crucifix.

Boomark: So before cruxification, God has no power? I tire for you o.

So can you tell us how many crosses he hung in his room?
How many did he use to demonstrate to the people while he preach to them? Because it was very important then for the people to see what happened and how Christ died.

You better start worshiping God in truth and in spirit. Not with images.

My brother, why are you taking up issues with me? It was St Paul that said Christ crucified is the Power of God, not me. So you can start your World War III with him.

So you have already concluded and judged that I am not worshipping God in truth and in spirit...

In other wards you can see into my heart and soul...

Na wah for una wey be anti-Catholics o...

Boomark: 'calling satan evil is not my personal view'.
Didn't you see that quote?
Any pastor, bishop or Pope that says such a thing will get no respect from me.

It is now left for you Catholics to now prove that op and even this one wrong. If you can't do that then all those thing are true.

I can't believe what I am seeing!

So if I call you a bastard, it is up to YOU to prove it that you are not a bastard, not me to prove that you are. And if you cannot prove that you are not a bastard, it is true that you are. Are you serious. You anti-Catholics have no limit to how low you can go, do you?

Okay you are a bastard. Prove to me that you are not. If you cannot, its true that you are a bastard, right?

Boomark: 'calling satan evil is not my personal view'.
Didn't you see that quote?
Any pastor, bishop or Pope that says such a thing will get no respect from me.

It is now left for you Catholics to now prove that op and even this one wrong. If you can't do that then all those thing are true.

I can't believe what I am seeing!

So if I call you a bastard, it is up to YOU to prove it that you are not a bastard, not me to prove that you are. And if you cannot prove that you are not a bastard, it is true that you are. Are you serious. You anti-Catholics have no limit to how low you can go, do you?

Okay you are a bastard. Prove to me that you are not. If you cannot, it true that you are a bastard.

ijawkid: My question to you heathen is how would you know if the use of the cross in worship is important or not when to start with you hate God and Jesus Christ.....and what is truth to you when it comes to the bible......

Let the catholics who are still catholics keep defending there faith......

you know nothing nor appreciate bible truths so its easy for you to just say what is true from your atheist point of view........

Why do you feel it is better or easier to argue with a Catholic than an Atheist?

Afterall, you say that we are pagans and don't believe in the Bible too. You say that we worship Mary, Saints, statues, Crucifix, Rosaries and everything but God. Why then do you feel that a Catholic will know the importance or (lack of it) of the cross in Christian worship more than an Atheist? Afterall, you consider both of us as non-Christians.

ijawkid: Italo made no defense as regards using the cross in worship with the scriptures.......

Early christians did nothing of that sort.....

I did! Only you didn't understand a word of it.

E.g: I said St Paul called Christ crucified the "power of God" in 1 Cor 1:24.

...And you said I shouldn't call the "cross" the power of God.

ijawkid: Hahahahahaha.....

So you are telling me the apostles had moulds of the cross and also images??.......and also the rosary??

Italo now I know you are bent on following the traditions of men....

For you to force the use of the cross in worship on the bible shows how much you are willing to wallow in idolatry...

And so at your age you still don't know what Jesus meants when he said ""we should pick up our cross" and follow Him.....
So from your infantile assertions we are to literally pick up a wooden cross hang it in our homes.wrap it around our necks as rosaries and then follow Jesus??....is that what early christians did??

I am sure you know how big the cross(although he died on a tree) Jesus was hung on is.....and I hope you carry such big gigantic cross when you walk on the road.....SMH!!!!!!

My brother no scripture supports the carving and making of the image of the cross in worship....

And never you say the cross ""is the power of God"".....that is blasphemy and heresy.......

No 1st century christian used the cross in worship......history and the bible tells us that.....

Your whole post shows that you didn't understand my post. But I am not surprised. If you don't understand the meaning of 'my God', 'everlasting father', 'alpha and omega', 'the beginning and the end', 'the first and the last', as short and simple as they are, I cannot expect you to understand my post.

Show us where Christians used the Bible for worship in the Bible... Since you say you are talking about worship.

If you cannot show me, should we take it that using the Bible in worship has pagan origins?

Show us where Christians used the Bible for worship in the Bible... Since you say you are talking about worship.

If you cannot show me, should we take it that using the Bible in worship has pagan origins.

Show us where Christians used the Bible for worship in the Bible... Since you say you are talking about worship.

God4moi: Hmm wahala wa o! As a catholic I know the Pope has corrected this notion a while ago that the use of condom as birth control is not forbiden provided its used between husband and wife. So me I don't know where you find your own catholic gurls o.

N.B: The church also stands with bible against pre and extra marital sex.

Dazl: D bible is against pri marital nd extra marital sex.....hence,abortion aint alowed coz its murder
NP;any form of contraceptiv aint alowed.d son of judah was punished by death coz he used witdrawal method...d pope made dat statement to suit d changin world,bt its nt bibilical
b4 u crucify me,am a catholic

Please let me beg both of you in the name of the Father and of The Son and of The Holy Spirit. If you are unsure of something, it is better to be quiet about it. The Pope did not make the above statement and The Catholic Church will never change its view on such an important doctrinal issue ever, not even to suit a changing world.

The Church has always maintained that sex outside of marriage is wrong. That abortion, the use of condoms and contraceptives are all wrong.

What the world is looking for is anything that can be used to criticize the Catholic Church (including inconsistencies) because it is the only institution that stands firmly against the world as they try to portray all these evils as 'okay.' So we should be careful about what we say and should educate ourselves about Church doctrine.

I mean no harm. I'm just horrified about the harm that your statements can possibly cause the Church.

pastormustwacc: Can anyone please help me summarize? I have read thousands of lines of articles overnight, but reading long text on nairaland is a very tough task for me. Thanks.

Lies, untruths and half-truths.

We Catholics don't believe that everything that is not explicitly stated in scripture is a sin. It is you who believes that. So to you, making Mary's image, using the internet, driving cars, wedding in a Church, wearing t-shirt and jeans are all sins. We believe they are not.

But since you believe that way, it is you who has to prove that every single thing you do or say in your life was done or said in the Bible.

Start by proving everything you have said on this thread.

ijawkid: Which church??so God told catholics to make an image of mary and bow down to it,but forgot to tell peter,paul,james and all 1st century christians??.....abeg carry this rubbish comot for my front....
We read specific commands from God himself as regards the making of the bronze serpent,the ark of covenant.....show us from the scriptures and not from some tradition of men how the use of marys image in worship came about.....

Show us from scripture where God said don't make images of Mary.

Most of your post is just "show me scripture" "show me scripture." Meanwhile you haven't cited a single verse to back your claim. Why don't you show us verses that say what you are saying...

ijawkid: Joshua went on to say ""alas sovereign LORD""

I didn't hear Joshua and those people mention words like the ark of covenant was a medium through which they could get to God.....

How does that relate with when you bow down in front of marys image and say ""Holy mary mother of God please pray for us""??....

Did Joshua mention the ark of covenant in his prayer??....did he??.......rather he said ""alas oh LORD"".

My friend, I don't know your age but I assume you are an adult so stop being childish. You thought it was only Catholics that pray and bow before images and I just showed you where Joshua did that. So in order to do it right, we have to say "alas Sovereign Lord?" If not it would be idolatry? Please if you have nothing meaningful to say, you can be quiet.

ijawkid: And You didn't quote a scripture to show me where we a. re commanded to make an image of mary.....did you??.......God commanded that a corper serpent be made so that all those bitten would be healed,where are u commanded to make an image of mary??
Do you know why I need scriptures??because the apostles who were christians never bowed down to any image let alone the image of mary..... So who started the use of marys image in worship??it has no connection with the scriptures....

You didn't quote any scripture that says the apostles never bowed to any image.

ijawkid: marys image can't help you or bring your minds back to God,rather it has deluded you into idolatry....you can't tell me @ your age and with a complete bible you still need images to remind you of God....you be pikin??

But it helps me do that all the time. Or do you now know what goes on in my mind more than me? Maybe it has deluded me into Joshua's kind of idolatry. I'll gladly imitate Joshua, thank you.

ijawkid: Besides only pagans bowed down to the images of female godesses......marys image is a replica of that....no spiritually balanced apostle would make an image of mary and bow down to it...except that 1st century christian was drunk on paganism....

Mary's image is Mary's image. I don't know any female goddesses, you are the one who knows them and how they look, so if there is an idol worshipper here, it is you.

ijawkid: God has healed no one through marys image..now this statement of yours is one big heresy.....you think the white mary you bow down to heals or solves your problem...??you must be joking...I thought I had told you that the copper bronze serpent hung on a stake for-shadowed Jesus being hung on a stake..in which any one who exercises faith in him might not be destroyed but have eternal life.....

How do you know that God has healed no one through Mary's image. God who healed people through the bronze serpent, Peter's shadow and Paul's handkerchief... Are you God?


I don't think Mary heals me or solves my problem, that is what YOU THINK I think...and you are wrong as usual.

Also, you haven't answered my questions.

Where did you get the information that the early Christians burned Crucifixes, Rosaries and other sacramentals?

Were the Ark and Bronze Serpent lifeless and useless?

Omo Alata: No she doesn't - you've been misled

Again, your opinion. And your opinion is fallible. Or are you infallible?

ijawkid: I still don't know how the cross became the symbol of christianity......the early christians and the apostles never used that item in worship nor hung it around there homes....

The use of the cross in worship is pure idolatry......

Omo Alata: Our Jesus is no longer on the cross https://yoursmiles.org/tsmile/religion/t0824.gif

Perhaps you should check out 1 Cor 1:23. Paul says, "...but we preach Christ crucified..." Why does Paul preach Christ crucified? Doesn't he know Jesus has been raised from the dead? Of course he does! But, he knows that it is through the power of the crucified Christ on the cross that the bonds of sin and death are broken. As Paul says in verse 24, Christ crucified is the "power of God".
1 Cor 2:2, "For I decided to know nothing among you except Jesus Christ and Him crucified." Again, didn't Paul know that Jesus had risen from the dead? Of course, he did.

Paul preaches Christ crucified because an empty cross has no power. The cross that bears the beaten, battered, and bloodied body of Jesus Christ, however, that cross is the "power of God". This is why, we "keep Jesus on the cross," because we, too, preach Christ crucified. The Crucifix reminds us not only of God's power, but also His love for us - giving His only begotten Son up for suffering and death.

Also, here in this life we do not share so much in the glory of the Resurrection, as we do in the suffering of Jesus on the cross; after all, we must take up our cross daily if we are to follow Jesus, as it says in Lk 9:23.

And, we must die with Christ in order to live with Him as Romans 6:8 tells us. Where did Christ die? On the cross. The Crucifix serves to remind us of these things.

One other passage to keep in mind is Galatians 3:1, "O foolish Galatians! Who has bewitched you, before whose eyes Jesus Christ was publicly portrayed as crucified?" Did you catch that? Jesus was publicly portrayed, before their "eyes", as being crucified. Sounds kind of like they may have been looking at a Crucifix, doesn't it?

From biblechristiansociety.com

ijawkid: You mean Joshua and the leaders of isreal chanted in front of images??......please what did they say??

Joshua 7: 6 Then Joshua tore his clothes and fell facedown to the ground before the ark of the Lord, remaining there till evening. The elders of Israel did the same, and sprinkled dust on their heads. 7 And Joshua said, “Alas, Sovereign Lord, why did you ever bring this people across the Jordan to deliver us into the hands of the Amorites to destroy us? If only we had been content to stay on the other side of the Jordan! 8 Pardon your servant, Lord. What can I say, now that Israel has been routed by its enemies? 9 The Canaanites and the other people of the country will hear about this and they will surround us and wipe out our name from the earth. What then will you do for your own great name?”

That looks like prayer to me, and it was said after he had prostrated "face down" before the Ark till evening.

And you didn't answer me, where the Ark and bronze serpent lifeless and useless?

ijawkid: Then discard the images of the cross,the rosary,and marys image....throw them into the receptacle..burn them just as the early christians did........

No. They help us bring our minds to God. And I haven't heard where the early Christians did that. Can you show me where?

ijawkid: what was the instruction God gave moses as regards the bronze serpent??didn't God instruct moses on what to do??....God himself gave the instruction in order for the lives of the isrealites who had been bitten by snakes to be revived.....and that act for-shadowed the messiah been hung on a stake.....Jesus himself refered to that incident....
The isrealites didn't see the copper serpent as a means of worshipping God,,,,....infact later on that bronze serpent was destroyed by God.....

If they didn't see the bronze serpent as a means of worshipping God, then neither do we see statues as a means of worshipping God... God healed them by using the bronze serpent, didn't he? So God can heal us by using an image as a point of contact.

ijawkid: And as regards the ark of covenant,its making was as a result of Gods instruction...and that ark of covenant represented Gods prescence....and it was kept in the most holy.....all that was given because of the physical temple......
Today ofcus God does not dwell in temples....Jesus died to squash the physical temples and all its items......

Was the Ark God or was it not God? If it was not God, then why did Joshua bow and pray before it?

ijawkid: I wonder how come we are having new images in churches....who instructed the making of those images??God??or man??.....

God...through his Church. "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven."

ijawkid: Now the difference between you and an ancient isrealite was that that ark of covenant was made because God himself instructed them to make it......

There's no difference. God also recommends the use of our images through his Church... And did God tell the Israelites to bow to the image and Ark and pray to it?

ijawkid: Who instructed the catholics to make an image of mary and to bow down to it and infact pray through it??who??

God...through his Church.

ijawkid: In your case presumpteousness and idolatry is what is eating you up....

That is only your fallible opinion.

ijawkid: Did the isrealites pray through the ark of covenant??

Yes they did in Joshua 7.

ijawkid: How can you quote what happened @ cana as a prop for indulging in prayers through mary??

So because mary helped a couple beg Jesus to turn water into wine,it then also means mary is interceding for all Christians after her death??......wonders shall never end!!!!!!!!!!........

And I believe till today you are still begging mary to beg Jesus to turn all the water in your house to wine or maybe VODKA this time......
.......
And how many times did the apostles or early christians pray thru mary even when mary was alive ??can you please spot a verse from acts to revelations where early christians prayed through mary??....

How can you use just that one singular act to term mary as an intercessor.....SMH!!!!!!!.....

Now this is why we say you guys worship mary.....

""HOLY MARY MOTHER OF GOD PLEASE PRAY FOR US""...

This is what no early christian did or said.........

The problem is that you keep asking me to quote scripture and I keep quoting but you haven't quoted one single verse to back up all the claims you have been making since.

I've showed you where Mary made Jesus perform a miracle even when he didn't want to, you are asking me for another one. Mary is not dead but Alive. John 11:26 says that if you believe in Jesus, you will never die. Do you believe that?

Omo Alata: She intercedes for nobody

That's what you think. WE know that she intercedes for mankind.

ijawkid: So can you please tell me what sets you apart from one who practices hindiusm or buddhism who believes that through an image he or she can get to the supreme God??...

The same thing that set the Israelites apart. They also bowed before the Ark of the covenant.

ijawkid: Have you ever tried imitating Jesus who worshipped the almighty without the need of images interceding for Him??.......

That's exactly what we do. We worship like Jesus who didn't need images to intercede for him because images cannot intercede, but saints can.

ijawkid: Lol....we aint angry bro....

I'm not in any battle with the catholics actually.....its just that bowing down and chanting before images is just against what Jesus would do...

But it's not against what Joshua and the leaders of Israel did.

ijawkid: its plain idolatry......Jesus didn't need the help of an image before he could approach his Father....we don't need items to be right in front of us before we can approach our heavenly Father.....

Catholics don't believe we need the help of an image before we can approach God. That is an argument you built up by yourself on behalf of Catholics...and we didn't ask you to be our spokesperson on what we believe.

ijawkid: As I can see the catholics are not confident enough that Jesus can do his mediator Job any longer and so bowing down before marys image becomes important.....

Another argument you built by yourself. It doesn't represent our true belief. If you will challenge us, at least challenge what we believe, not what YOU THINK we believe. If you are a true Christian, you will not misrepresent what another person believes. If we are not confident in Jesus as our Mediator, we wouldn't ask any Saint to pray for us to Jesus, would we?

ijawkid: need I remind you guys that we are to worship God by Faith and not by sight.......we don't need images to help us get to God...images are inanimate objects made by the hands of man........they are lifeless and USELESS........

So the Ark of the covenant was also lifeless and useless then? The bronze serpent that God told the Israelites to construct were lifeless and useless?

When you say we are to worship by faith not by sight, you should know that it is not by the "sight" of the statue that we commune with God, it is by FAITH that the Saint is alive in heaven and God will hear and answer his prayer.

When the Israelites bowed before the Ark, they knew that the Ark wasn't God but it brought their minds to God in a very powerful way. When we look at the Statue of Mary, we know that it is not Mary but it brings our mind to the Mother of God who is not dead but alive in heaven, and who can hear us and help us like she helped the couple in Cana talk to Jesus to provide wine.

She hasn't stopped interceding for mankind.

[quote author=N_girl]Thank you very much for this perfect explanation. If he cannot understand then he doesn't want to.[/quote]Of course he can understand, but doesn't want to.

We do not have "dead Saints." The Saints are ALIVE in heaven.

John 11:25 Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. The one who believes in me will live, even though they die; 26 and whoever lives by believing in me will never die. Do you believe this?”

Do you believe this?

Boomark: We are not running away. Why not prove frosbel wrong. No matter the number of other churches where the symbols are found, they could be birds of a feather. That does not make them holy symbols. So tell us what we are ignorant of.

I remember you from the other thread wher they lied that the Pope apologized to satan. You were pretending that you were neutral and objective. You said I should just tell you if it is true or not (as if you were really interested in the truth). I remember telling you to read the whole statement on the link that made the allegation. You haven't told me if you have read the link or not, and what conclusions you have been able to draw. Perhaps because you have seen that that one is a lie, you kept quiet about it. Because it is not a weapon you can use to beat The Catholic Church. Now you are here again pretending to look for explanation and clarification.

I have met many non-Catholics who are just neutral on these issues. They'll say something like "if Catholics say they don't worship statues then who am I to say they do?" But be warned. Many are not merely 'non-Catholics' but 'ANTI-CATHOLICS'...and there's a big difference. These anti-Catholics just despise anything Catholic (or anything they think the Catholic Church is). They will not listen to reason. In many cases they just make up what THEY THINK the Church teaches and debunk it. When you prove to them through reason andd scripture that your kneeling before a statue is not idolatry, rather than accept that you are correct, they'll start to talk about purgatory. When you prove that purgatory is scriptural, rather than accept that you're right, they start talking about Papal infallibility. In the end, when you debunk them on all issues, they'll run away from you and go and look for more gullible and uninformed people to say the very same things to.

There's time for everything. Jesus was hardly ever in their house but when he was there, one seized the opportunity to listen to him while the other continued with her normal chores, even though she loved him as well.

We all face those situations sometimes.

You are at mass and you are thinking of other day to day worriem..for example...

We all know when tha moment comes when we should chose Jesus above other things. We should seize the opportunity.

advocate666: Some people like suffer no be small.

This thread is sure cracking me up.

For me, I'd like to be Peter or Mary.

To have Jesus trust you so much that he left his Church in your care must be really special...

...But to carry God -who created heaven and earth - in your womb?

That's absolutely unimaginable!

Ihedinobi: Please reread the concluding paragraph. To explain that paragraph yet again, opinions are personal understanding or comprehension of matters. For this reason, one cannot be said to have understood any matter unless they can express a unique view of it. Personal opinion is not an enemy to the Gospel.

However, how opinions are formed determines their correctness. I said that the Christian's opinion is not formed in isolation. It is educated by the Holy Spirit through his brother and sister believers and through obedient experience, that is, obedience to the revelation/understanding he has received. Through these, he is corrected and his opinion shaped to the Truth.

As a result, he ends up in total agreement with the Lord and therefore with the Church.

Evidently then, I do not agree that varying opinions are acceptable in the Church. The unity of the Church is absolute, but it is not brought about by slavery.

When you say "The Church," which one are you talking about?

The Lord's Chosen, Christ Embassy, RCCG, Synagogue, Winners' Chapel, Household of God, House on the Rock, Assemblies of God, Deeper Life, Christ Apostolic Church, Celestial Church of Christ, Cherubim & Seraphim, Methodist, Anglican, Baptist, Presbyterian etc?

Be specific and to the point; which Church?

Incase he didn't see that clearly...