₦airaland Forum

ayoku777:
What part of "symbolic" vision don't you understand? The appearance was not physical it was a spiritual vision and John saw them as symbolic representation.

Do you think the four horsemen were physically seen on earth the way it appeared to John?

Do you think the angels blowing the seven trumpets were physically seen in the sky the way it appeared to John in the vision?

Do you think the angels pouring the wrath of God were physically seen on earth the way it appeared to John in the vision?

The vision of Rev 12 appeared as a vision to John with symbolic representation about Israel and the church under the roman empire etc.

Its not Mary, or any dead saint. Its not a physical appearing either.

Shalom

ayoku777:
Elijah and Moses - appeared as covenant mediators of the old covenant (the law and the prophets). Of which they are no more mediators. They can't appear to anyone as that anymore.



Matthew 26 saints - didn't appear from heaven, they were yet to ascend and were seen of many when they came out of their graves and appeared in the city. They are in heaven now; and won't be seen again until resurrection.



Rev 12 -that was not Mary. It was not mary that was persecuted after the ascension of Christ. Mary was not given wings to fly into the wilderness. That woman was symbolic of the nation of Israel and her experience under the satan-controlled roman empire after Christ's ascension.

Shalom

ayoku777:
Obviously you've run out of intelligent scriptural replies, you're now trying to argue semantics and terminologies.

Anyone with a brain, knows church is church; whether gentile or jewish. I used gentile church for specification, and to differentiate it from the jewish nation.

But if you were not being sinister, you would have known that even the "gentile" church includes jews who believe in Christ; because church of God is church of God.

And I repeat, the appearance of Elijah at transfiguration is not demonic because it has a valid scriptural justification.

But any such appearance now of a dead saint from heaven appearing to saints on earth, has no scriptural justification and can only be a demonic stunt to deceive the gullible.

Shalom

ayoku777:
There is also no verse in the bible that categorically says abortion is a sin. But scriptural antecedents show that a baby in the womb already has an identity and destiny with God (as with Jeremiah). So abortion is murder and termination of destiny.

So also, there are no verses that categorically says, dead saints in heaven cannot appear to saints on earth. But scriptural antecedents show that saints in heaven are not messenger angels or mediators of the new covenant.

So any appearance claiming to be any dead saint is contrary to scriptural truths; and are therefore not of God. They are demonic.

Shalom

ayoku777:
Rev 12v17 -And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

In this passage, who is the seed of the woman? It is Jesus, the man child (Rev 12v5)

And who are the remnant of her seed (Jesus)? It is the believing jews and gentiles. That's why it said "those which have the testimony of Jesus Christ".

The remnant of the seed of the woman is the Church; believers in Christ; the seed of Abraham after the Spirit. While the woman herself is Israel; the seed of Abraham after the flesh.

Its not so hard.

Shalom

ayoku777:
And which verse says saints in heaven can be sent to saints on earth? And don't give me Elijah, because he was clearly a mediator of the old covenant at that time; which he no longer is. And don't give me the Mattew 26 saints, they were clearly not from heaven.

You would really need to twist the scriptures or draw generalized conclusion to make the claim that saints in heaven can appear as messengers or mediators to saints on earth.

And I never said the appearance of Elijah at the transfiguration was demonic. Ofcourse theirs had a scriptural justification; because as at that time Elijah appeared together with Moses as mediators of the old covenant (the law and the prophet).

But no apparition or appearance of Elijah now, or of Mary, or of Moses has any biblical scriptural basis anymore. Because they're not messengers or mediators anymore. Only Jesus is.

Saints in heaven will only be seen again at the resurrection or by saints who also die and go to heaven. Before then, any other appearance claiming to be them is demonic.

Shalom

ayoku777:
That woman represents Israel (the seed of Abraham after the flesh); the nation that brought forth the Messiah (the man child).

Notice that after the man child (Jesus) was taken up to heaven, the woman was persecuted by the dragon; after which she went into the wilderness for a while. And the dragon now turned its wrath to the remnant of her ofsprings (the gentile church or the seed of Abraham after the Spirit)

That's exactly what happened to the nation of Israel. Shortly after Jesus ascended, the nation of Israel was destroyed and laid fallow for many years. During which the devil focused his wrath on the gentile church.

The woman represents Israel, not Mary or any dead saint. It is a symbolic vision.

Shalom.

dmandy:
So in your own 'best and only acceptable' opinion, the Gentile Church was the offspring of Isreal.

Waoh.

A symbolic vision indeed which only you can interpret. hmmmmmmm

ayoku777:
Its clearly in the bible. But people hate to see or admit or agree with anything that challenges their held long doctrinal bias.

Dead saints are not sent to earth as messengers or mediators from heaven. They are not angels or Jesus.

Any such appearances is demonic.

Shalom

Jeromejnr:
Its a very sad thing.

Many folks have been brainwashed with useless traditions of men. That's why we hardly see the power we are supposed to in church today.

People being on wheel chairs with get old and die in those chairs never getting out because that particular church has left the supernatural and gone over in to carnal.

Well, the truth is you can't help everyone. Most people will have to first die and see they've been living a lie all along.

VLadipo:
But you would agree with me that the Catholic church has given Mary undue reverence and regard equalling if not more than that given the Holy Trinity - The Father, The Son and Holy Ghost.
Why don't you beg Elizabeth (the first person who was filled with the Holy Spirit when she heard the voice of her cousin, Mary, thereby causing her to prophecy) to pray for you?
Why don't you beg John the Beloved(closest person to Jesus ever and most loved by Him) to pray for you?
Why don't you beg Apostle Paul (most used of the apostles) to pray for you?

It has always been Mary.
And you even call her the mother of God! Damn!!

OLAADEGBU:
It is not the "angry Jesus" who "Mary" has to appease but the real Jesus who answers prayers.

OLAADEGBU:
It is not the "angry Jesus" who "Mary" has to appease but the real Jesus who answers prayers.

ayoku777:
They were not mediating anything. They just rose from the dead and came out of their graves; and appeared to saints in the city. They were not yet ascended to heaven then. But were seen before their bodily ascension.

They are in heaven now; and like every other saint in heaven, they don't appear to any saint on earth anymore.

Trust me, any apparition of a dead biblical saint that appears to you now, I ask you to rebuke it with faith in the name of Jesus, and see what happens. That's if you're a true believer yourself.

You will see that you were about to be led astray by an evil spirit. No heavenly saint is a messenger angel or covenant mediator. They have no business with earth anymore until the resurrection.

Shalom

ayoku777:
I believe in miracles, signs and wonders. I've seen blind eyes opened and deaf ears unstopped in the name of Jesus. I wasn't told, I was there.

But I only believe in signs that are scriptural and are based on truths in God's word. Because I know fully well that the enemy can also perform lying signs.

I believe angels can appear to people from heaven. And I believe Jesus too can appear to people from heaven. But that is because they are messenger angels and mediators of the new covenant.

But saints in heaven are not messenger angels, neither are they mediators of the new covenant. They don't appear to saints on earth from heaven.

Moses and Elijah appeared because up until then, they were the mediators of the old covenant (the law and the prophets) that Jesus came to fulfill. And they appeared for that purpose.

What covenant is Mary mediating? What messaging is she delivering? Is she a messenger angel? Is she a covenant mediator?

All appartions of Mary, Enoch etc have no scriptural basis. They are demonic manipulations. God always operates by the standard of His word.

Shalom

ayoku777:
Thank you. I'm glad you're admitting you don't know how to determine if an apparition is of God or its demonic.

So you don't know how to determine it, yet you conclude by personal bias that the purported apparition of Mary is of God.

ayoku777:
That is a slippery slope to being led astray.

Now when Moses and Elijah appeared to Jesus on the mount of transfiguration, the appeared as the two mediators of the old covenant that Jesus came fulfil (the law and the prophets)

That's why I chose my words carefully, that Mary is not a messenger angel, neither is she a covenant mediator. So on what scriptural truth is the basis of her appearing to any saint on earth after dying?

Moses and Elijah represented the mediators of the old covenant; law and the prophets.

No saint in heaven is a messenger angel or mediator of any covenant now. Not even Mary.

Be Berean with the word, be Berean!

There is no verse that categorically said saints in heaven don't appear, just as there is no verse that say they do. But scriptural antecedents show that saints in heaven are not messenger angels or covenant mediators, and don't appear to saints on earth, like angels or Jesus can.

Apparitions of Mary, Enoch etc are demonic.

Shalom

OLAADEGBU:
Don't be contumacious. "Come out of her" and come to Jesus today.

OLAADEGBU:
Do not be cantankerous. Check out your "Queen" down below and see who you have been 'respecting', 'honouring' and worshipping surreptitiously.

dmandy:
Waoh

OLAADEGBU:
Don't worship Mary if you don't want to make her cry.

OLAADEGBU:
Don't be eristic. It is said that "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still". The Scripture tells us to "contend for the faith" not to be contentious about the faith.

ayoku777:
You establish doctrine through scriptural antecedents, not through personal opinion.

And scriptural antecedents show that saints in heaven don't appear to saints on earth.

Or else, you show me where saints in heaven came to earth and appeared to saints on earth.

Shalom

ayoku777:
And where is it in the bible that every strange appearance or apparition is of God?

ayoku777:
And if every apparition is not God, how to you know which is of God and which is demonic?

ayoku777:
Or any apparition that is the image of a biblical character is of God to you? Smh.

ayoku777:
Saints in heaven (dead or glorified) don't appear to anyone on earth. They are not messenger angels or covenant mediators. That is sound doctrine.

ayoku777:
Purported apparitions of Mary, Elijah or Enoch etc are all demonic appearances and manipulation.

Shalom!

ayoku777:
Even glorified, resurrected saints cannot appear. Those ones appeared immediately after they came out of their graves before they ascended. And after that, no one has seen them again.
Saints in heaven, whether glorified and resurrected or just dead, stay in heaven until the resurrection. They don't appear to anyone on earth like angels or Jesus.
They are not messenger angels or covenant mediators.
If you don't know this, tomorrow another apparition will appear claiming to be the prophesied Elijah. Then another one will come saying he is the returned Enoch.
You must know that saints in heaven don't appear to anyone . To see them, you must died and go to heaven yourself or be taken like Paul was to the third heaven.
Be Berean with God's word, that's the foundation of sound doctrine. Otherwise if you just follow signs you will be led astray.
Shalom

ayoku777:
Their's is in the bible, that's what I'm saying. Some glorified old testament saints that rose with Jesus, appeared to people in Jerusalem before they ascended. Those saints are the firstfruits of the coming future resurrecrion of the saint. That is a scriptural truth.

But have they appeared to anyone again since they ascended to heaven? No! Because they are glorified saints, not messenger angels or mediators of the new covenant.

Is the appearance of Mary a biblical doctrine? On what scriptural truth is the basis of her appearance? Mary is not even a resurrected, glorified saint like the ones in Matthew; much less being a mediator of the new covenant.

Her appearance does not point to, validate or establish any truth in God's word or any sound doctrine in the scripture. So the puported sign of her appearance can never be of God. Because God always operates by His word.

This can only be a demonic distraction to those who give it relevance. Mary is in heaven awaiting her resurrection like every other saint, not appearing to anyone. This apparition is not scriptural or of God. It is a demonic sign you will do well to ignore.

Shalom.

dmandy:


I love this quote from Prof. Pious,

dmandy:
Welcome back!!!

I knew you would come whenever someone from your camp raises another point.

How far?

I purposely, cancelled that your claim, its unfounded and we will definitely arrive at that if you stop evading questions.

My questions for you again...... please be sincere.

Who gave you the conditions for respect?

KashyBaby:
stop bitching abt it and tryna defend tat as if u never smashed at all coz tats lame nigga...

OLAADEGBU:
7. Forgiveness of sins, salvation, is by faith and works

CCC 2036, "The specific precepts of the natural law, because their observance, demanded by the creator, is necessary for salvation."
CCC 2080, "The Decalogue contains a privileged expression of the natural law. It is made known to us by divine revelation and by human reason."
CCC 2068, "so that all men may attain salvation through faith, Baptism and the observance of the Commandments,"

So the death of Christ is not sufficient?

Hiswordxray:
Then you research wrongly. Maybe you need to learn to research the Bible without channeling what you've already been taught.

OLAADEGBU:
If she is like God and knows in full then that explains why Roman Catholics have exalted her status to deity and hence worship her as the "Queen of heaven" and that explains why she will be crying right now.