₦airaland Forum

LewsTherin:
The omnipresent Father,
The omnipresent Son,
The omnipresent Holy Spirit.

There are over 1 billion Catholics on the planet. 1/24th of them may be praying at every single hour of the day every day. The omnipresent trinity can hear and attend all petitions at every time. The Spirit is with every Christian at every time. The Son lives in the heart of every Christian at every time.

I wonder. Is Mary omnipresent too? It's the only arguement I haven't gotten a rebutal to.

The Saints are in heaven. They don't have to be in your living room to hear you.

1John2 Dear friends, now we are children of God, and what we will be has not yet been made known. But we know that when Christ appears, we shall be like him, for we shall see him as he is.

Stop limiting God and those who have become like him.

Scholar8200:
But why ask somebody to intercede to the Intercessor?!It's like saying we need a priest to plead with the High Priest to do the work for which He was ordained!!!!
Hebrews 4:14-16

14 Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need.

The High Priest ordained by God is sufficient, we need not add to the Word. Do you hire two lawyers/advocates when going to court?! One to beg the other to do the work for which he was engaged by you? Does this not sound absurd?!

Beseech Jesus Christ? Did He change after His ascension? Did He not say:

John 14:13
And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do, that the Father may be glorified in the Son.

John 16:23,24,27

23 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. 24 Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.
27 for the Father himself loveth you, because ye have loved me, and have believed that I came out from God

Besides, the quote above in Hebrews tells us to come boldly to our Father's Throne! We are not hapless/ helpless subjects but sons (for those who are saved) and joint-heirs with Christ!

You should be asking yourself that question. Why are you interceding to the intercessor for your loved ones when you pray for them? Why are you being a priest pleading with the high priest for them? Why are you acting as another advocate for them? Is it absurd or not?

Scholar8200:
The only person who was remotely called mother of the women that believe was Sarah (1 Peter 3:6) Besides, we dont find the apostles enlisting the intercession of any of the cloud of witnesses:
Acts12:5
5 Peter therefore was kept in prison: but prayer was made without ceasing of the church unto God for him.

I asked that if you can pray for your loved ones, why can't Jesus' mother pray for her loved ones.

You couldn't answer.

Scholar8200:
Our focus on this thread is intercession done in Heaven. Jesus Christ Is Our High Priest Before The Father and our access to the Father is by Him and Him alone!

Ephesians 2:18
for through him (Jesus Christ) we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father.

When we ask Mary's intercession, our access is still Jesus Christ.

We are not asking her to bypass Jesus Christ. We are asking her to beseech Jesus Christ to grant us access to the Father...

just like you ask your Jesus to grant your loved ones access to the Father. You're not bypassing Jesus for them.

If you, who are filthy, can do so, why can't Jesus' mother do so for her loved ones?

Ichiato:
According to biblical principles we cannot ask Mary to deliver us from dangers? Where in the bible is it written not to ask Mary?

Haba!

Didn't you see it in the book of Charlsecy chapter 1 verse 1?

ILIDEFI:
Guy, zoom off with your useless question. ZOOM OFF!!!

I understand. This is another way of saying "I don't want to admit that praise is prayer because that would mean that Angels and Saints pray." That would mean the Catholics are right.

We have seen many of your type...even those that are for more intelligent than you.

That's why you Protestants have millions of denominations teaching contradictory doctrines.

Hypocrisy.

Scholar8200:
Bible tells us Who it is that does the intercession in Heaven
Hebrews 7:25
... He ever lives to make intercession for them (those who come to God by Him)


1 John 2:1 says
...We have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ... (not Mary)

It's not possible to have mary doing what Jesus is clearly portrayed as doing He (not Mary) being our High Priest

So when you pray for your loved ones, you taking Jesus' place?

angieberry:
That's why we have the Holy Spirit as an intercessor

And as regards to your queen mother argument, many of my catholic friends have towed this same line of reasoning, saying that Mary is a sort of link to God but remember Jesus says that the ONLY way to the Father is through HIM. No other way. So that argument is invalid!

Jesus is the only way, yet you pray for your loved ones. Can they not go to him directly instead of going through you?

Think!

charlsecy:

Yes... We pray to an entity we worship. The purpose of prayers is to commune with our Creator. The content may be:

*Praise and thanksgiving
*Invocation of GOD's Will
*Request for forgiveness
*Request for protection
*Request for any other noble heart desires

Check the Lord's Prayer at Luke 11:1-13, taught by Jesus Himself, you would see it contains all these elements including praises.

So the Angels and Saints pray to God.

Yes or no?

charlsecy:
Don't be confused by my use of "In My Understanding." When I said that, I was only being humble. Actually, I meant, "According to Biblical principles." Biblically speaking, we cannot ask Mary "to deliver us from all dangers."

**********

In Luke 11:1-13, Jesus gives us a valid guideline on how to pray, and it involves directing our prayers to His Father in Heaven...... in his Name, as shown by John 14:13 and John 16:23.

"Whatever you ask in My name, that will I do, so that the Father may be glorified in the Son. [John 14:13; NASV]

Truly, truly, I say to you, if you ask the Father for anything in My name, He will give it to you. [John 16:23; NASV]

I want you to look at the Word of God and avoid teachings of men. How could someone teach what is clearly against the Word of the Master, and you accept that?

Nowhere does the Bible say the bold. Show one verse that says we should not communicate to God through others.

On the contrary, the bible tells us to pray for one another.

Stop trying to force your uninformed opinions into those verses.

ILIDEFI:
I'm scatter-brained? My guy, enjoy ur worship of Mary. I don't have strength to join issues with you any further. When you stand before the throne of God, I hope you will confidently defend you actions then.

This is where I will end this argument with you.

You seem scatter-brained.

No one knows what is actually biting you.

ILIDEFI:
What's your point really? Praise can be an aspect of prayer. Still doesn't change anything.

Praise alone can't replace effective prayer, which is supposed to be a communication with God. It's a 2 way thing.

In Acts of the Apostles, Paul and Silas prayed and sang, before the prison doors and chains were broken. They are 2 activities that are interlinked, but it doesn't meant praise is equal to prayer.

If I praise God, am I praying?

Ichiato:
What kind of childish thinking is this? So we must always specify that she is to ask her son to give us the protection we ask her? Lets reason a bit. I am the second son of my mother who is married to my very rich father. I also have an elder brother who is in charge of all my father's businesses and indeed has my father's authority to do whatever he so pleases with his business. Now I need to something from my father's business and I ask my mother. According to you I must also specify that she must ask my eldest brother for it before my request is considered legitimate? You my friend are certainly funny.

Thank you for taking out time to explain his foolishness.

ILIDEFI:
Singing "You are Holy", even for a million times whether as a praise or prayer to God is completely worthwhile. But same cannot be said for those that repeat the following lines severally:

"Hail Mary full of grace, the Lord is with you
Blessed are you among women, and blessed is the fruit of you womb, Jesus
Holy Mary mother of God, pray for us sinners now and at the hour of our death"

Is that a praise or a prayer?
If it's a praise, to whom is it directed. If it's a prayer, still to whom?

Did you see anywhere in Revelations that the saints, Angels, 24 elders, or 4 living creatures were said to be praying for those on earth?
Have you read any such from the letters of Paul, Peter, James and John to the early church?

How then was it introduced into the church?

You seem scatter-brained.

With what do you have a problem?

Repetitive prayer or asking Mary's intercession?

ILIDEFI:
We aren't just talking about prayer. We're talking about asking the saints in heaven to intercede for you. It's different from their endless duty, which is offering continual praise to God.

You're still afraid to honestly answer the question.

Is praise prayer?

charlsecy:
The pastor cannot deliver you; he can only pray for your protection in the Name of Jesus Christ. And you should never say, for example, "O' Pastor James, deliver me from all dangers." That is idolatry!

Note that the "We Fly To Your Patronage" prayer doesn't ask Mary to pray to Jesus to protect you. Instead, it plainly asks Mary for protection. Again. The prayer doesn't ask Mary to intercede for your protection. Rather, it directly beseeches Mary for protection, which in my understanding, constitutes worship, NOT intercession.

We pray to an entity we worship. The purpose of prayers is to commune with our creator. The content may be:

*Praise and Thanksgiving
*Request for forgiveness
*Request for protection
*Request for any other noble heart desires

Can you show how the "We Fly To Your Patronage" prayer isn't a sort of worship?

Everything you said is merely according to your understanding.

According to Catholic understanding, we ask Mary to deliver us (meaning we seek deliverance as a result of her prayers for us).

Secondly, communicating with the creator can be done through an intermediary, just like any other communication.

Now do you want to force your poor understanding of a Catholic prayer on Catholics...so that you can convict them?

Or are you supposed to take their understanding of their own prayer into consideration?

urheme:
A universal God who does not recognise religion and their various denomination.

This God does not take tithe, vows, sacriffice, offerings, seed of faith.....etc.

He does not feed on praise,worship,fasting or your harvest.

You cannot eat the flesh or drink the blood of this God in any form, He is not food.

He sees your heart, conscience, good and wickedness.

He does not reside in a church or temple of any sort.

His word has been planted in your heart, you don't need to read any book to know him.

Hope this helps

Are you about to create this "god?"

Or does he already exist?

If he exists, how did you know about him? When did he tell you he has all those qualities? Why should he be focused on? What is his relevance?

OLAADEGBU:
I guess it's not the wafer god.

What is "wafer god?"

Is that what you and your pastors are desperate for at the Vatican?

OLAADEGBU:
Is this your reason why it is true?

It is reason enough for you and your pastors who are obsessed with the Catholic Church.

OLAADEGBU:
If you like it when your church is being celebrated you should also be prepared to defend it when it is being criticized.

I will defend it when it is criticized unjustly by a human being with a brain...

...not when an empty skull is making noise about what he knows nothing about.

OLAADEGBU:
All those "pastors" are just fulfilling bible prophecy.

The pastors are just as obsessed with the Catholic Church as you are.

You're also fulfilling the same prophecy?

charlsecy:
How about the "We Fly To Your Patronage" prayer's despise not our petitions in our necessities, but deliver us always from all dangers, O glorious and blessed Virgin? Can you show me how that isn't worship?

I am willing to learn?

When you fly to your pastor's patronage and he delivers you from danger, (by praying for you), are you worshiping him?

chubbyswit:
i'm sure u ve not read your bible from genesis to revelation before jumping to that conclusion. The catholic who has profaned the word of God by adding and removing some contents and replacing them with lies? Bro go and do alittle research about ur church and stop being a blind worshipper. Do not be decieved for God cannot be mocked.

Tell us what the Catholic Church added, what they removed, when they did this...

And tell us the Bible that existed before they did those.

Let us see who is a blind follower.

chubbyswit:
its very shameful that for someone to pretend he reads and understands the word of God when he cleary doesnt. Dude go back and study the bible deeply and ask the spirit of God to help u understand it i.e if u guys even believe in gift of the holyspirit and his powers. He that has ears let him hear

You dodged my question, Sir. You who read and understand the Bible, who study deeply with the help of the Holy Spirit, teach us:

When the early Christians argued, what did the use to settle the dispute in Acts 15? Who did the believe? The Bible or Pope Peter and Bishops James, Andrew, John etc?

Read Acts 15 before you answer. I know your pastor will not read that chapter in your congregation

chubbyswit:
catholics argue without using the bible as their standard instead they use what their so called popes and bishops ve brainwashed them over the years. Now my question is, who should you believe? The word of God which is the bible or man who is filled with sin?

When the early Christians argued, what did the use to settle the dispute in Acts 15? Who did the believe? The Bible or Pope Peter and Bishops James, Andrew, John etc?

Read Acts 15 before you answer. I know your pastor will not read that chapter in your congregation.

bamuffy:
He(Jesus) said in mattew that 'I can
of myself do nothing,as i hear i
judge and the judgement of God is
true' so stop wasting ur worldly time
by worshiping Jesus and his mother
mary. None of them can save u!

So you believe what the Bible says.

John 1:1 in the beginning was the word and the word was with God and the word was God.

You still believe the Bible, Muslim?

clefstone:
well, for starters, Mary herself said 'all generation shall call me blessed'(Luke 1:48). Therefore, it wasn't a wrong act by that woman to call her blessed.
Now, why did Jesus rebuke the woman for calling his mother blessed? Because he knew the woman called Mary blessed for the simple reason of her being his mother(compare with the passage where Christ rebuked the rich young man for calling him 'good'). However, Mary is not blessed just for that reason, but for the fact that she obeyed God's will. Read that passage again and understand.
@poster, this very passage is read in the catholic church during the year(daily mass reading), so don't think you are calling to the church's attention something she chose to ignore.
@ italo and syncan you guys rock
Cc honourhim

Thank you

ILIDEFI:
It wasn't 3 times at once. It was at different times. The fact that you asked God to help u pass your exams yesterday doesn't mean you shouldn't pray again today, till u get your answers. That was what Jesus did.

Repetitive prayer can never be at the same time. It is always one after the other.

Jesus repeated the same prayer 3 times with (at most a few hours). The four living creatures repeat the same prayer for eternity.

What is your problem with Catholics?

ILIDEFI:
Praise is totally different from intercession. You guys ask Mary and the saints to intercede for you, and not to praise God for you. Praising God is their duty in heaven, but intercession isn't.

The question was "is praise prayer?"

And please show me where the Bible said the bold.

MuttleyLaff:
https://s16.postimg.org/d1zyejs0l/Denomination.jpg
First step towards ecumenism or "proposal for harmonization" is recognising God is neither a catholic nor a protestant

What do you mean by the bold?

urheme:
Remove religion and their stupid doctrines and lets all focus on God

Ok, God is neither a catholic nor a protestant.

Which "God" are you asking us to focus on? Tell me about this "God."

urheme:

True talk.
It makes the christian religion look like a joke.

Christianity need harmonization, afterall God is not a catholic.

What is your proposal for harmonization?

...and how do you mean God is not a Catholic?

OLAADEGBU:
1. The Catholic church is the one true church CCC 2105

"The duty of offering God genuine worship concerns man both individually and socially. This is 'the traditional Catholic teaching on the moral duty of individuals and societies toward the true religion and the one Church of Christ.' By constantly evangelizing men, the Church works toward enabling them 'to infuse the Christian spirit into the mentality and mores, laws and structures of the communities in which [they] live.' The social duty of Christians is to respect and awaken in each man the love of the true and the good. It requires them to make known the worship of the one true religion which subsists in the Catholic and apostolic Church. Christians are called to be the light of the world. Thus, the Church shows forth the kingship of Christ over all creation and in particular over human societies."

Is this true or not?

It has to be true...since you and your pastors are so glued to and obsessed with the Church and it's teachings to the extent of keeping vigil during the conclave and rushing to the Vatican to listen to the Pope.