₦airaland Forum

Gabrielshow24:
Shey you know read wetin talk for above!
No one is disputing that!
The bible says give honor unto whom honor is due!

Or you rather we say the son is greater than the Father?

Was that what you were expecting?
Nope, we are aware of this!
It's nothing new but you lack understanding to put in place.

The son existed with the Father and the Father hath given him all things.

Before time was made he(son) existed that's why christians don't use the term "created" for Jesus.

Gabrielshow24:
He simply is!
That's why Jesus found it not robbery to say "I am"

And "even before Abraham I was" etc

The Bible further elucidates the relationship between the Father and the Son in several texts!

I have explained this and lots more in previous write-ups.
Gain understanding brother!

Emusan:
He couldn't answer my simple question because he knows his pot of lies will be opened.

What is the meaning of BEGOTTEN?

Let's see if all Abraham children are not BEGOTTEN and ALL ANGELS ARE NOT BEGOTTEN according to your definition of BEGOTTEN

Emusan:
So, what is your point?

If not because your brain is paining you.

I said Moses was MADE LIKE GOD not that Moses was GOD!

You jumped into my mention by started saying rubbish as if I'm wrong.

Even your deluded fellow has realized his folly by keeping shut because scripture did not say MOSES WAS GOD as he early lied.

JaNosense I asked again what exactly did you want to prove by quoting me in the first place?

Emusan,What a dunce you are !!
Very low IQ WAILING WAILER seeking attention.


Your Trinitarian New English Translation Bible explained that "Like" was put there @ Exodus 7:1 "for clarity" (screenshot evidence).
Yet you are exposing your IBERIBEISM.
Oga,carry your IBERIBEISM komot from this forum

.

achorladey:
Days of yore = ancient days. Tells us the beginning of that ancient days since you know Jesus had a beginning.

Gabrielshow24:
You quote most of these verses off context!

No one is disputing that!
Jesus said "of my own self I can do nothing save whatsoever the son sees his Father do"

But the fact remains that "both existed in a timeless realm"

That's the take home!

Jesus confirmed his predation of the world!

As usual you forgot to include that!
Read the entire scriptures; don't cherrypick!
And gain full understanding!

Gabrielshow24:
Then how was he created?

Perhaps you will like to explain to the world how preexisting Jesus was created?

And why you use the term "creature" for a self existing and timeless being?

When you are done with these?
Explain to me the theme of that chapter?

And how it warranted you to interpret it literally?

I want to know your school of thought and how deep your understanding is!


Surprise me!

Emusan:
Origin from ETERNITY, can something with beginning existing in ETERNITY JaNosense?

Emusan:
But it's not about FIRST CREATED

Yes! Common expression for POSITION not FIRST CREATED.



That's not the point of the writer.

Where FIRSTBORN ARE USED in from Genesis to Revelation has where the object isn't THE FIRST PERSON given birth to in the family has ALWAY BEEN ABOUT HIGHER RANK



Neither is it a direct meaning of FIRST CREATED.

Apostle Paul completed explained what he meant when he said Chirst is the FIRSTBORN it simply means PREEMINENCE.

Did you not read that from Paul?

.

Low IQ dunce forming woke.
Every first BORN in your Bible was created prior to their PREEMINENCE .


Study Genesis 49:3 & stop your IBERIBEISM
First born in that verse is distinct from PREEMINENCE.

Emusan:
Then why do you say the Son of God is NOT GOD?
.

Emusan:
Jesus is the Creator, He created you, Michael and everything in the universe.
.

Emusan:
Yahweh is not a limited God who needs a lesser god to help Him in creation or lie lie God since He CALIMED HE CREATED ALL THING ALL BY HIMSELF.
.

Did you see your 2nd person and 3rd person deities at Isaiah 44:24?
Yahweh Hmself does not recognize your 3 deities invented by men at Nicene 381 AD.
Pls remain stuck in your delusion invented at Nicene.

Emusan:
Micah 5:2 is never in your support, as you can't still removed that delusion from your head.

Micah 5:2 is another evidence that Jesus never had BEGINNING .

Emusan:
Do you honor your father and mother JUST AS you honor Jehovah?

This JaNosense quoted me and started calling another moniker which shows how confused he was.

Emusan:
See delusion.

So others are not begotten by Abraham



You mean other Angels are not BEGOTTEN....

So what does it mean to be BEGOTTEN?



The right question should be what does it mean to be begotten?

If you can answer this, them you'll see how your delusion about Isaac was ONLY BEGOTTEN BY Abraham and Jesus being theONLY BEGOTTEN.

I know your BEGOTTEN here means CREATED.

So, other Angels not CREATED KO

Maybe God manufactured them



What does it mean to be BEGOTTEN?

Emusan dunce for life

Very low IQ guy forming woke.

Go and find out the root meaning of Greek 'mono' & Greek 'genes'.


Or
Upgrade your dunce level

Emusan:
Which mean your NWT added to what is not in the original Hebrew.

See how this JaNosense keeps proving that his beloved NWT is inaccurate.

Steep:
🤦max that verse literally just separated Jesus from the angels. Arch angel Micheal is an angel just like the rest but Jesus is greater than all the angels including michael. That verse just destroyed jehovah witness teaching that Jesus is archangel Michael. Nobody is arguing against you that Jesus was not made greater than the angels. The subsequent verse clearly state that Jesus was a human made a little lower than the angels but crowned with glory and honor.
Note how Jesus is separated from the angels repeatedly, the writer was actually debunking the heresy that Jesus was some high ranking angel such as Jehovah witness teach.

Steep:
If Jesus is greater than The angels that means he is no part of the group called angels, simple basic comprehension.

MaxInDHouse:
Study your Bible not just swallowing whatever your pastors told you claiming God is a Trinity something you can't find inside the Bible.

Even the verse you quote Hebrews 1:4 clearly stated:

So he has become better than the angels to the extent that he has inherited a name more excellent than theirs. Hebrews 1:4

Jesus himself said:

"All authority has been given me in heaven and on the earth" Matthew 28:18

WHY?

Because he has accomplished a great task that none of his brothers in heaven was willing to do for mankind! John 19:30

Steep:
Did he say he built it by himself?
Let me help you,



.

Steep:
Ecclesiastes 2:11 Then I looked on all the works that my hands had wrought, and on the labour that I had laboured to do: and, behold, all was vanity and vexation of spirit, and there was no profit under the sun.

Again this only means his labour's it does not mean he did it by himself as Jehovah said he created by himself and no one with him
.

Trinitarian iwuruwuru of Genesis 1 :26 thoroughly debunked by Isaiah 44:24 ;
Oga Steep post:
"Jehovah said He created by himself and no one with him".

Oga, how many deities are you referring to @ Isaiah 44:24?


You Trinitarians teaching FALSE doctrine, where is your 2nd & 3rd person deities @ Isaiah 44:24?

@ Isaiah 44:24,Jehovah God Himself proven that the 2nd & 3rd person deities of Trinity were invention of men at Nicene in 381 AD.


Oga, you have debunked your Trinitarian claim of Genesis 1:26.
Pls Bookmark this point for record purposes.

Congratulations

wwwtortoise:
Football politics at play.
Ballon D’ Or lost its appeal last year when Messi won for the record 8th time at the expense of a more deserving Erling Haaland.

It’s more like Ballon D’ PR for marketing and commercial purposes.

Emusan:
Stop injecting your own delusion into Bible.

Bible never said Moses WAS GOD!

"Jehovah then said to Moses: “See, I have made you like God to Pharʹaoh, and Aaron your own brother will become your prophet." Exo 7:1 - NWT

This scripture is very self explanatory!

Lastly, later you will be arguing that JESUS IS NOT GOD!
BUT HERE YOU ARE CLAIMING THAT the Bible actually called Jesus GOD!

If Bible actually called Jesus God, does that not mean Jesus is GOD?

Gabrielshow24:
No one disputes that God his father is the Father of all.

But you do not understand the term "creation" - it explains the process of how something came into existence mind you could you tell me how preexisting Jesus came into existence!

When the very world was not made and when creation has not began!

But if you say from the Father's perspective that he is a creature that seems fair "but even the Father doesn't use that term" but instead used "begotten" to hint perhaps at the process of his inception.

How then can we comprehend the inception of "our inception"?

Anything that predates time and creation should be the same today, yesterday and forever.

Which means technically the Son hath "no beginning"

But the son doesn't speak so of himself but instead we see the phrase being assigned to the Father.

From the Father's perspective The son is his seed a substance of him, a part of him and for sure hath been and dwelt in him also.

Let me lend the analogy of we paying tithe through Abraham.
From the above we see two options either the son existed in the Father without sentience or he existed with the Father in the beginning of beginnings with sentience.

Hence irrespective of this - we can be sure that the "Word" even though articulated by the Father will forever and has always been a part of the Father!

Hence only from the Father's perspective can we say that the "metaphor" - "first of born of creation" is suitable.

Proper understanding of the verse is key!

Gabrielshow24:
Not disputing that!
You could as well take it from the physical perspective.
It doesn't diminish the fact that he is timeless hence it was his wish that he should be born in flesh which the bible corroborates!

Jesus is God that existed as a physical being!

MaxInDHouse:
Even the word "SON" alone has proved that he has a beginning because he was BORN!

Sand2022:
If by produce, you mean created, you are contradicting a scripture there. All that was created, all, I mean, all came from Jesus. That is what John 1:3 says. So it is scripturally wrong to use the word create for Jesus.

Later this week you go climb platform deceiving yourself.


Hebrew 1:2 & John 1:3THROUGH him (the agency of Jesus Christ)
The same word at John 1:3. 1 Corinthians 8:6. Colosians 1:16,
Jesus Christ is NOT the First Cause.
Jehovah God his Father is the First Cause/Principal Cause.
Jesus his son is the Instrumental cause.
Oga Sand,Bible hub screenshot evidence rebutes your false claims.
Note that Biblehub are your fellow Trinitarians . ;
Like All sons, Jesus came from God his Father & Creator.
"ALL things came from the God"

Hebrew 1:2.1 Corinthians 8:6 & 1 Timothy 6:13, even 1 Corinthians 11:12 no dey your Bible?

Brenbentondiaz:
So, Jesus in Revelation was still in human form, right? For your own sake I hope it's either you are taking the piss, or you were feeling sleepy when you typed this response.

Sand2022:
While he is God, he is not the same person as God the Father. This has always been the misunderstanding among JWs. The Trinity holds that they are of the same nature. That is the major point.



I have addressed this issue of not knowing when the end will come above. Jesus plays two roles. He restrained himself of many things while in the flesh. He emptied himself as recorded at Phil 2:5-6

With regards to Jesus saying God good. Well, I don't think you mean that Jesus is not good. Is that your point? Take note also that Jesus is the called the ONLY Potentate at 1tim 6. Is Jesus the only Sovereign?



I don't see how all that changes anything. By saying "different entities", it appears you hold to Modalism, that is what JWs preach against. They teach less about the core traditional teaching of Trinity. To the church teaching that the father and Jesus are the same entity is heresy. So I agree with you that such teaching is false

Gabrielshow24:
The verses you quoted show the relationship between God and Jesus didn't I not mention the "flow" in my previous write up?

Firstborn of creation is a figurative speech to depict the fact that he is the heir of God and what better way to draw similitude than to use 'first born" which men can relate to.

Let me give you this example.
When you were in secondary school didn't you have seniors.
Yes you did and you called them " senior this " " senior that" but when you were done with school.

You relate with them rather differently(in some cases you start to call them by their names while in some introduction of clever addresses - my boss, oga etc without mentioning their names). The end result being that you still give them the(hint of it)respect! (All things being equal)

Hence no one disputes the fact that Jesus is dependent on the Father.

In fact he said "he can do nothing save whatsoever he sees his Father do"

But at some point after doing the things of the Father in the same way the Father does them.
You become adept; at that time we can call you "Master".

That's why the bible records of him attaining the fullness of the Father!

As regards creation it's very evident from scriptures that Christ predates creation.

Since time is a concept in creation.
Christ likewise predates space and time.

That's why we don't use the term "created" for the son!

Because he was, he is and he is still to come!!!

Emusan:
He existed along side of the Father BEFORE CREATION.

Gabrielshow24:
You didn't do justice here.
He(God) didn't call Moses God, He(God) made him(Moses) like God unto his brother(Aaron)

The way you presented it warranted his demeaning reply

MaxInDHouse:
OK nah! Matthew 24:36

These MUMU dummy Trinitarians deceiving themselves as if the imperfect disciples claim at John 16:30 would supercede Jesus rebuttal at Acts 1:8 & Matthew 24:36.

Very low IQ dullards.

freshboi88:
Very typical of you, jumping from Scripture to Scripture. Okay let me apply your jumping technique. Jesus knows all things John 16:30

Emusan:
You never addressee any of my point above

Why?

Do you honor Jesus JUST AS you honor the Father?

"Honor your Father and your mother "
"Honor Jesus just as you honor the Father"
Yet, the hierarchy @1 Corinthians 11:3 & Hebrew 6:13 is irreversible and irrevocable.


Freshboi, does your honoring Jesus change anything @
1 Corinthians 11:3 & Hebrew 6:13?

Whether you keep WAILING & throwing tantrums about honoring Jesus, 1 Corinthians 11:3 & Hebrew 6:13 is sacrosanct.

Confused Trinitarians and woke IBERIBEISM are very inseparable.

Steep:
How col 2.9 prove that Jesus is Almighty God and 2 Peter 1 vv4 does not teach Christians are become God because the participate in the divine nature.

Jehovah's Witnesses: How does Colossians 2:9, not prove the Trinity?
At Colossians 2:9 the apostle Paul says that in Christ “all the fullness of the divine quality [form of the·oʹtes] dwells bodily.” Here, again, some translations read “Godhead” or “deity,” which Trinitarians interpret to mean that God personally dwells in Christ. (KJ, NE, RS, NAB) However, Liddell and Scott’s Greek-English Lexicon defines the·oʹtes in basically the same way it does thei·oʹtes, as meaning “divinity, divine nature.” (P. 792) The Syriac Peshitta and the Latin Vulgate render this word as “divinity.” Thus, here too, there is a solid basis for rendering the·oʹtes as referring to quality, not personality.

A consideration of the context of Colossians 2:9 clearly shows that having “divinity,” or “divine nature,” does not make Christ the same as God the Almighty. In the preceding chapter, Paul says: “God saw good for all fullness to dwell in him.” (Col 1:19) Thus, all fullness dwells in Christ because it “pleased the Father” (KJ, Dy), because it was “by God’s own choice.” (NE) So the fullness of “divinity” that dwells in Christ is his as a result of a decision made by the Father. Further showing that having such “fullness” does not make Christ the same person as Almighty God is the fact that Paul later speaks of Christ as being “seated at the right hand of God.”—Col 3:1.

Considering the immediate context of Colossians 2:9, it is noted that in verse 8, Christians are warned against being misled by those who advocate philosophy and human tradition. They are also told that “carefully concealed in [Christ] are all the treasures of wisdom and of knowledge,” and they are urged to “go on walking in union with him, rooted and being built up in him and being stabilized in the faith.” (Col 2:3, 6, 7) In addition, verses 13 to 15 explain that they are made alive through faith, being released from the Law covenant. Paul’s argument, therefore, is that Christians do not need the Law (which was removed by means of Christ) or human philosophy and tradition. They have all they need, a precious “fullness,” in Christ.—Col 2:10-12.

Finally, at 2 Peter 1:3, 4 the apostle shows that by virtue of “the precious and very grand promises” extended to faithful anointed Christians, they “may become sharers in divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world through lust.” Elsewhere in the Scriptures, Christians are referred to as ‘sharing’ with Christ in his sufferings, in a death like his, and in a resurrection like his to immortality as spirit creatures, becoming joint heirs with him in the heavenly Kingdom. (1Co 15:50-54; Php 3:10, 11; 1Pe 5:1; 2Pe 1:2-4; Re 20:6) Thus it is evident that the sharing of Christians in “divine nature” is a sharing with Christ in his glory.

The verb form “to divine” generally means to employ divination, a practice directly condemned by Jehovah God.—De 18:10-12

“It is in him that all the fullness of the divine quality dwells bodily.” (Col. 1:19; 2:9) Having been with his heavenly Father for aeons of time, Jesus knows better than anyone else the personality and will of God. Throughout his earthly ministry, Jesus taught others what his Father had taught him and reflected in his actions the qualities that his Father had nurtured in him. That is why Jesus could say: “He that has seen me has seen the Father also.” (John 14:9) All the wisdom and knowledge of God are hidden, or are dwelling, in Christ, and there is no better way for us to learn about Jehovah than by carefully learning all that we can about Jesus.

We must address several key issues with their understanding of the Greek word θεότης (theotēs), their interpretation of "fullness" in relation to Christ, and their attempt to diminish the deity of Christ by referencing other texts like 2 Peter 1:3-4. Let’s examine each aspect closely:

1. Greek Word θεότης (Theotēs) vs. θειότης (Theiotēs):

The Jehovah’s Witnesses argue that θεότης in Colossians 2:9 means “divine nature” or “divinity,” equating it with θειότης in Romans 1:20. They claim this allows them to render the passage as referring to Christ having a "divine quality" rather than the full essence of deity.

However, there is a significant difference between θεότης and θειότης. The former (θεότης) refers to the very essence of God, meaning the state of being God. This term encapsulates the fullness of divine nature, meaning that Christ possesses the entirety of what it means to be God. θειότης (used in Romans 1:20), on the other hand, refers to "divine qualities" or attributes that can be observed in creation, but does not signify the full essence of God.

By conflating θεότης with θειότης, the Jehovah's Witnesses commit a serious lexical error. Scholars such as A.T. Robertson, Bruce Metzger, and others have highlighted the specific choice of θεότης in Colossians 2:9 to emphasize Christ's full deity, not merely His possession of divine qualities. The word θεότης is a stronger term that underscores Christ’s full participation in the divine essence, distinguishing Him from any created being, including angels. In contrast, θειότης is never used in connection with Christ’s nature in this context, which makes the Jehovah's Witness interpretation both inaccurate and misleading.

2. Context of "Fullness" (πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα):

The term "fullness" (πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα) in Colossians 2:9 further emphasizes the complete and undivided nature of the deity that dwells in Christ. Jehovah’s Witnesses suggest that Christ possesses this fullness merely because "it pleased the Father" (Colossians 1:19). However, this reading misses the point. While Colossians 1:19 refers to God’s decision that all fullness dwells in Christ, Colossians 2:9 expands on this by stating that this fullness is the fullness of deity (θεότης), dwelling in Christ bodily.

Paul’s usage of πᾶν τὸ πλήρωμα implies the totality of what it means to be God resides in Christ. This fullness is not limited or granted by the Father as if Christ were a mere vessel of divinity. Instead, Paul is stressing that the divine essence itself—the very nature of God—permanently dwells in Christ. This makes Christ fully and completely God, not merely a reflection or representative of God's attributes. The Jehovah's Witness argument that this fullness does not make Christ equal to God fails because it ignores the theological weight behind the terms used and the implications of θεότης.

3. Jesus is Not Merely Reflecting God’s Qualities:

Jehovah's Witnesses argue that Jesus reflects God's qualities, as seen in John 14:9 ("He that has seen me has seen the Father", but this does not align with the stronger assertions Paul makes in Colossians 2:9. If Paul had wanted to convey that Jesus merely reflected or shared divine qualities, he could have used θειότης or similar terminology. Instead, he chose θεότης to show that Jesus possesses the full essence of God.

Furthermore, the idea that Jesus is just a reflection of God’s qualities conflicts with Paul's assertion that in Christ "all the treasures of wisdom and knowledge" are hidden (Colossians 2:3). Christ doesn’t just reflect or possess godly attributes; He embodies the totality of divine wisdom and knowledge, which points to His inherent divinity, not a delegated or derivative one.

4. Colossians 2:9 vs. 2 Peter 1:4:

The Jehovah’s Witnesses reference 2 Peter 1:4, where Christians are said to "share in the divine nature," to argue that Jesus sharing in divinity doesn’t make Him fully God. However, this is a false equivalence. In 2 Peter 1:4, the phrase "divine nature" refers to Christians partaking in God's holiness and moral characteristics through sanctification, not to them becoming gods or sharing in God’s essence. The word used here is theia physis, which refers to a participation in godly characteristics, not a sharing of the divine essence itself, which remains unique to God.

In contrast, Colossians 2:9 uses θεότης to express the idea that Christ possesses the full and complete essence of God, not merely attributes. The comparison between believers sharing in the “divine nature” and Christ possessing the fullness of deity is not appropriate because they are entirely different categories: one is transformative participation, and the other is essential nature.

5. Christ Seated at God’s Right Hand:

Jehovah's Witnesses often argue that since Christ is seated at the right hand of God (Colossians 3:1), He must be subordinate to God. However, this argument misunderstands the function of the right-hand position in biblical and ancient contexts. Sitting at the right hand of a king did not imply inferiority but rather shared authority and honor. In fact, it was the highest place of honor one could have. Christ’s position at the right hand of God signifies His exaltation and co-rulership, not subordination in essence or nature.

Conclusion:

The Jehovah’s Witness interpretation of Colossians 2:9 is flawed on several levels. Their rendering of θεότης as "divine quality" ignores the deeper meaning of the term, which refers to the full essence of deity. Additionally, their attempt to diminish the significance of Christ possessing the fullness of deity ignores the specific vocabulary used by Paul to affirm Christ’s full divinity. The context of both Colossians 1:19 and 2:9 points to Christ being fully God, not merely a reflection or vessel of divine attributes. This understanding cannot be applied to any angel or created being, as no other being in Scripture is said to embody the fullness of deity as Christ does.
Copied from a reply of xyzhu in quora.com

Sand2022:
You remember why I don't respond to your comments?

Sand2022,read the 2 screenshots & please continue WAILING.

You can not do NOTHING about this evidence;


The Evidence is this:
Trinitarian Sand2022:
@ Colossians 2:9, "Jesus is fully God".

Trinitarian Bill Mounce:
@ Colossians 2:9, Jesus is NOT fully God "
Food for serious thought:

Why is the same ghost deity invented in 381 AD confusing Sand2022 & Bill Mounce ,Greek Bible scholar with conflicting info?