₦airaland Forum

ttalks,
don't you think its unbalanced to pluck a verse here and there that say "God controls everything" but yet ignore the other verses that say we choose, we decide to believe or not etc and walk the path of our own lives?

What we need to do is bring both sides together and come up with the help of the holy spirit an answer that includes both sides - because the scripture does not contradict scripture.

ttalks:
Jesoul,

If context is what we are regarding here, the way u explained resisting God's will as regards Romans 9 is not entirely correct.

verse 17 says God raised Pharaoh for the purpose which we all know.
verse 18 says he hardened his heart;which we all know.
verse 19 is saying :why does he find fault [that would be with Pharaoh,since he(God) hardened his heart]? The who hath resisted his will is in reference to that hardening of Pharaoh's heart.God's will was that pharaoh's heart be hardened and pharaoh could not resist that will.

It is in that same sense that one can ask generally that who can or has resisted God's will.

I'm happy you pointed that out and was hoping we would head in that specific direction of "God hardening Pharaoh's heart".

Now why the would bible say here in Rom 9 that God hardened Pharaoh's heart but way back in Ex 8 say that it was Pharaoh that hardened his own heart?
Ex 8:15 But when Pharaoh saw that there was relief, he hardened his heart and would not listen to Moses and Aaron, just as the LORD had said.
8:32 But this time also Pharaoh hardened his heart and would not let the people go.

Before I go further, I'd love to hear your theory/understanding of these two seemingly contradictory verses.

God's will can be seen in so many ways:

- His ultimate will; which is the salvation of mankind.
- what he wants /expects us to do.
- what he expects the devil to do.
- what he causes to happen;whether good or bad.
- what he makes the wrongdoers do.
- what he makes us to do.
- what he prevents us from doing.

Etc,

God's will goes far beyond what we can ever imagine and it sure isn't limited to the "always beautiful expectations" we keep reminiscing about.

Good approach in breaking it down but I still find the highlighted portions problematic. God doesn't make anybody do anything ttalks, that is just not biblically accurate. Does He influence us? yes, does He control us? no.

The sooner that we realize that whatever happens under the sun is God's will, the better for us.

Take a second to really think about what you just asserted here, heck take two seconds! lol This is insinuating God is responsible for all the evil, for the fall of Adam and Eve, for everything . . . please rethink and revise brotha.

ttalks:
As regards God having foreknowledge as to what we will do and then working with that knowledge to accomplish his will, . . . . . . . . . . I do not buy that idea as how his will is accomplished.
I rather see it as he has determined that this or that is how things will be and then sets events into motion that make us and every other thing flow accordingly.

Care to explain why? what are your perceived deficiencies of holding such a position? To me is both satifies the fact we have free will and God's ultimate purpose will always be accomplished.

lightwalk:
@Jesoul: I'm still pondering on the message of that youtube video, and could you give me your im? mabye we can chathttps://www.anchoredbygrace.com/smileys/dance1.gif

I just sent you a req on IM

JK dude lets make it end of next week now . . .  Max has already assigned IB and Atonement to me lol.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=262653.msg4733390#msg4733390 date=1255541269]It's hard to say Nay to those adorable eyelashes baby, but Fight Club isn't for everyone. The first time I saw it I tuned out where Norton was calling Marla Singer a faker. Her lie mirrored my lie and magnified it, etc. Next time I saw it, I was so stunned and overwhelmed I sat through the whole thing again. Amazing filmmaking. Everything came together; great script, great cinematography, great effects, great editing, great actors and one hell of a director. An absolute masterpiece. That ending was voted 2nd greatest surprise ending of all time in the US. The movie has a serious cult following. But it's not for everyone. It's like Eternal Sunshine of the Spotless Mind. You either get it  and love it or miss it and hate it.[/quote]hmmm . . . intresting, maybe I'll give Fight Club another shot then.

As for Norton, I think you should see the very first movie he made. PRIMAL FEAR. He was an altar boy accused of murdering a bishop. Richard Gere played his lawyer. It is a very intelligent legal and psychological thriller with twists and turns you won't see coming in a million years. Norton won a Golden Globe and was nominated for an Oscar for his performance. In his first movie! He's been twice nominated for Best Actor Oscars after that. Amazingly, incredibly, unbelievably, neither he nor Pitt got Oscar nominations for Fight Club!

I LOVED 'Primal Fear', what a fantastic movie. Norton was flawless in it. Gere also did a great job.

Don't mind them JS. The creatures even like war movies. Talking of which, have you seen Tropic Thunder? "This. . .is flaming dragon!" You'll love it.

Nah I've heard much about it, haven't seen yet.

[quote author=pres-elect link=topic=334908.msg4727448#msg4727448 date=1255462805]@jesoul,

thank God your opinion doesnt matter [/quote]Reverse that statment, then you will be correct

Re: Why Only Iran……. But Why Not Israel?

this is one of a gazillion reasons why: https://www.nairaland.com/nigeria/topic-336457.0.html#msg4719939

OH yes of course! I remember that, duh . . . sawrry I'm slow lol. See that's why we need you here . . .

Yeah Max, I think the Godfather is a guy thing . . . the way they go on about it    and since you haven't seen it too I don't feel so bad lol.

lol at Vesc, aight I'll show some restraint on the honesty thing in the future.

JK, watch it before the end of next week - deal? lol

ttalks:
I think God's will is still definitely his purpose.

Rom 9:19(KJV)
(19) Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

Rom 9:19(BBE)
(19) But you will say to me, Why does he still make us responsible? who is able to go against his purpose?

Makes sense to me.

But one thing I think: I Know God has an ultimate and super purpose; but I also feel that he has other wills within his ultimate will.

Just like sub-wills of a super-will.
these sub-wills might not make sense but all work towards accomplishing the super will.
But one thing for sure; no man or thing or situation can resist his will or prevent it from being; whether sub or super will.

I asked us to come up with a definition because I think it would go a long way in enhancing this discourse.

Lets look at some mentions of "God's will" in the scriptures:

---

-Mark 3:35 "Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother."

-John 7:17 "If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

-Rom 8:27 "And he who searches our hearts knows the mind of the Spirit, because the Spirit intercedes for the saints in accordance with God's will

-Rom 12:2 "Do not conform any longer to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God's will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will

-1 Thess 4:3 "It is God's will that you should be sanctified: that you should avoid sexual immorality

-1 Thess 5:18 "give thanks in all circumstances, for this is God's will for you in Christ Jesus

-1 Peter 2:15 "For it is God's will that by doing good you should silence the ignorant talk of foolish men

-1 Peter 4:19 "So then, those who suffer according to God's will should commit themselves to their faithful Creator and continue to do good

---

  Now certainly we as christians do not always do the will of God - do we always give thanks? do we always do good? do we always avoid immorality? no. In many instances we fail to carry out what we know from the scriptures is God's will.

  Now let us not mix this with what you termed a "super/ultimate will". For instance it was God's will/purpose that Jesus should come on earth, live and die for our sins - and there was nothing man could do change or prevent that. Now within the smaller picture man sinned, David fell, his lineage was almost wiped out, Pilate tried to kill Jesus etc etc man didn't always do what God willed for him - but in the larger picture God inspite of man's inadequacies still brought about His ultimate will/purpose. This is God working thru our sin and weaknesses.

  Let us look at some other verse talking about a "super will/purpose":

---

-Acts 2:23 "This man was handed over to you by God's set purpose and foreknowledge; and you, with the help of wicked men, put him to death by nailing him to the cross.

-Acts 5: 38 "Therefore, in the present case I advise you: Leave these men alone! Let them go! For if their purpose or activity is of human origin, it will fail. But if it is from God, you will not be able to stop these men; you will only find yourselves fighting against God."

-Eph 1:11 "In him we were also chosen, having been predestined according to the plan of him who works out everything in conformity with the purpose of his will

- Eph 3:10 "His intent was that now, through the church, the manifold wisdom of God should be made known to the rulers and authorities in the heavenly realms, 11 according to his eternal purpose which he accomplished in Christ Jesus our Lord.

---

I hope this clears up some things for us all.

ttalks:
A verse in the bible makes it clear that God will is always done and nothing can resist it:

Rom 9:19
(19)  Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?

The bold part in the verse surely suggests that nothing or nobody can or has resisted God's will. it denotes an impossibility of resisting God's will.

Another translation(CEV) puts it thus:

Rom 9:19
(19)  Someone may ask, "How can God blame us, if he makes us behave in the way he wants us to?"

ttalks, you're muddying the waters a lil bit here brotha. Lets look at Rom 9 in total context shall we?

---

14What then shall we say? Is God unjust? Not at all! 15For he says to Moses,
   "I will have mercy on whom I have mercy,
      and I will have compassion on whom I have compassion." 16It does not, therefore, depend on man's desire or effort, but on God's mercy. 17For the Scripture says to Pharaoh: "I raised you up for this very purpose, that I might display my power in you and that my name might be proclaimed in all the earth." 18Therefore God has mercy on whom he wants to have mercy, and he hardens whom he wants to harden.

19One of you will say to me: "Then why does God still blame us? For who resists his will?" 20But who are you, O man, to talk back to God? "Shall what is formed say to him who formed it, 'Why did you make me like this?' " 21Does not the potter have the right to make out of the same lump of clay some pottery for noble purposes and some for common use?

22What if God, choosing to show his wrath and make his power known, bore with great patience the objects of his wrath—prepared for destruction? 23What if he did this to make the riches of his glory known to the objects of his mercy, whom he prepared in advance for glory— 24even us, whom he also called, not only from the Jews but also from the Gentiles?

---

 
   I daresay this portion of scripture is not talking about God controlling our wills - it is saying God's ultimate will/purpose will be done regardless! and there's nothing man can do to stop or resist it. This is very different from saying He controls or determines our will. I hope you see this subtle but very important distinction. 

and if you don't, how do you explain these verses in scripture?
John 7:17
If anyone chooses to do God's will, he will find out whether my teaching comes from God or whether I speak on my own.

Mk 3:35 Whoever does God's will is my brother and sister and mother

there could not be a clearer portion of scripture that shows we do have a choice whether or not to do the will of God. Which is why this next quote from you is extremely problematic:

It surely looks like he makes us do what we do to accomplish his purpose. 

So in essence your position is we never have a choice? we are simply pawns in God's supernatural chess game who really have no say in determining anything about the course of our lives?

  We agree God's purpose and ultimate will will always be accomplished no matter what, but where we differ is how this purpose gets accomplished. You say he determines our will and in essence our choices, I say He works within the choices that we make because He has foreknowledge of what we will do - and uses this to bring about His will and purpose. Does He influence our wills sometimes? absolutely! does He ever determine it? I don't think that is biblically accurate.

And this is the same country some have the stones to come here and argue they should be allowed to develop nuclear weapons?

Right so . . . Peter doesn't belong? what does that mean?

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=173006.msg4726133#msg4726133 date=1255449055]Hey baby. I said WALL E and Fight Club and Trainspotting and Memento were dope too . One either likes QT or not, and me likey very mucho. Seriously though, you should see Atonement. It's good.[/quote]Aight will do.

Wetin Karma wan do? Go carry am come. I'm missing her a little sef.

Did someone tick her off here? apologize immediately!

Is rain old? Is spring? Craig isn't old. He's 38. Imagine what wine that age must taste like. Perfect.

me I have no comment .

Max thanx for the breakdown.
JK nope have neither seen nor heard of Sango till this thread. The way it seems everyone had watched it like it were some rite of passage or required watching lol.

As for the Godfather . . . I will watch it if you watch 12 Monkeys - deal?

Posa, no be so?
I still fancy the science aspect of the prizes though . . . imagine if they handed out Nobel prizes to scientists or literalists for the "promise of future findings" or "future writings" or as a "gift to encourage them to keep trying".

It's not Obama's fault, he didn't give himself the award, but those twats at Nobel should understand they've cheapened the award every year for about the past decade.

Wonderful indeed!
They finally killed off charlie I guess they need to take risks, and what happened to the NY FBI chick? I thot they were integrating her into the regular cast?

The part where walter hit the bell and Olivia 'fell asleep' - pretty cool. I like the way the story is unfolding so far . . . its probably going to be another couple of 'filler' episodes before they go back to this "gate opener" guy.

btw what was that part with the lady they found who Walter did experiments on in the past - when she looked at Peter and he glowed?

@ttalks: I hope you are now getting my point. You need to redefine your answers. God simply has an end in mind. Looking at it from our own view, it sounds manipulative

Lightwalk thank you for that simple and concise statement, that is what I also was trying to pass across.

JK I got the holla and will hollaback soon  

and you're right though about everyone having "movies we should've seen but haven't" . . . I confess I haven't seen any installment of the Godfather. Yeah I said the Godfather.  

So what is this Sango that everyone's talking about? was it required watching for school or something? . A quick synopsis would be appreciated.

lol@ new month resolution  we have some real comedians in here. 13yr olds and old man Craig lovers don get mouth Tease away ladies! tease away. Just remember when the tables turn and roles get reversed I will only be too happy to relish the occasion 

Where's Karma self?

I guess I will go see IB then (and pray for Naija to start showing for Spike's sake), and if me don't like, God help anyone who said it was dope 

Image123:
Is it necessary to obey Jesus and pray 'Thy will be done in earth', if God's will must always be done anyway?

Good question.
I don't think it is accurate to say "God's will is always done" because it isn't. It would be better if we came up with a definition for what we mean by "God's will" anyways.

I think it is better if we said God's ultimate purpose is always done - just like we saw with Jesus dying and rising again. For example it is God's will that we should constantly do good, avoid immorality, pray for all the saints etc . . . but do we always do this? no. Even though God through the holy spirit constantly influences us? no. But if we are truly born again, His ultimate purpose of completing our salvation and justification will be accomplished at the return of Jesus.

ttalks:
I wonder why it is always the "mischievious" or "sadistic" terms that are usually ascribed towards God when one tries to make it clear that God influences or affects our wills.

well it would be mischevious to assert human beings have the freedom to make choices then turn around and say "God always influences and affects our will" which is in essence setting us up as zombies who really are just pawns in His game and that ain't true.

Verse 7 shows that he had intentions to cut off nations, not "the nations" as u put it. But there was no indication that he had any plans against israel,hence the part that said he didn't mean to or have it in his heart to.

No slow down brother. You're adding extra in there now

Here's what the verse says: "Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few."

  Going solely off the information we are given here, we are told the king planned to destroy many nations - we're not told which nations he had in mind and[b] it doesn't say Isreal was not part of one of those nations.[/b] We're not given that information so I don't see you reached the above conclusion that "he had no plans against Isreal".

As i said before, God was going to punish him not because of the fact that he had evil intentions against nations but because of the fruit of his heart; that is, the fact that he felt it was all of his own will,power,and intention that he could accomplish all he did:

Isa 10:12-14
(12) Wherefore it shall come to pass, that when the Lord hath performed his whole work upon mount Zion and on Jerusalem, I will punish the fruit of the stout heart of the king of Assyria, and the glory of his high looks.
(13) For he saith, By the strength of my hand I have done it, and by my wisdom; for I am prudent: and I have removed the bounds of the people, and have robbed their treasures, and I have put down the inhabitants like a valiant man:
(14) And my hand hath found as a nest the riches of the people: and as one gathereth eggs that are left, have I gathered all the earth; and there was none that moved the wing, or opened the mouth, or peeped.

Those sure look like pride of the will to me and i know God hates pride.

I agree.

God was trying to show that he was nothing more than a tool in his hands; whose will was subject to his:

Isa 10:15
(15) Shall the axe boast itself against him that heweth therewith? or shall the saw magnify itself against him that shaketh it? as if the rod should shake itself against them that lift it up, or as if the staff should lift up itself, as if it were no wood.

Wondering if u get the point I'm making?

I believe God does influence and determines man's will.
Or what do u think is being communicated in the verse below:

Php 2:13
(13) For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

I get it, and I have some issues with it.
Our wills are most certainly secondary to God's. Which is why in spite of man's failures, Jesus still came, lived and died for us and rose again. If it were solely up to man this would probably not have happened.

Yes God influences us as said in Phil 2:13 - but to say He determines it to me is going too far. It is my position that God works with our failures and successes, He uses our good and bad choices to bring about His will because He knows ahead of time what we will choose to do. He sets it up so that His ultimate goal will be accomplished - this is not Him determining our wills, it is Him working in them and through them to bring out His!

ttalks:
This is how i view the verses in question:

(5) O Assyrian, the rod of mine anger, and the staff in their hand is mine indignation

The verse above shows or indicates that Assyria is God's tool for anger. - [a tool is at the mercy and will of its wielder/owner]

(6) I will send him against an hypocritical nation, and against the people of my wrath will I give him a charge, to take the spoil, and to take the prey, and to tread them down like the mire of the streets.

Verse 6 shows that it is God's will and intention to use assyria against his people.

(7) Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.

Verse 7 shows that the king of Assyria had no intention,will or plan to attack God's people.

But because of God's will and intention, the will and desire was built up in the heart of the king.

but one will notice that after the king would have fulfilled God's purpose, God was goping to punish him.
One could ask why, since it was God that made him want to do his bidding.

But the interesting thing to note is that God was not punishing him for the act against his people; rather, he was punishing him for the fruit of his heart.
The thought that it was himself that wanted to do as he pleased and the belief that all he did or could do was of his own will,intention and ability.

This is evident in what verses 8 to 14 say.

God then says that it is himself that made the whole thing possible because it was his will and that the king was only a tool in fulfilling that will. Verse 15 says this much.


This much shows that when God has a desire or will, he makes his will come to pass by influencing the wills of his creation.
Without God putting the will or thought into the king of Assyria's heart, he would not have attacked God's people.


Differing views are welcome.

Very good analysis, however I differ in my understanding of verse 7:

Howbeit he meaneth not so, neither doth his heart think so; but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few.Verse 7 shows that the king of Assyria had no intention,will or plan to attack God's people.
But because of God's will and intention, the will and desire was built up in the heart of the king.

In my understanding the King of Assyria did have an intention to attack or why else would it say this in the second part of vs 7 "but it is in his heart to destroy and cut off nations not a few."?

I think God was saying that it wasn't the will or intention of the king of Assyria to be used as an instrument of punishment against the Isrealites. In the simplicity of the king's thinking- he didn't know his evil intentions were being used by God. So even though God used his evil to a purpose, God still punished the king for his evil.

Let me put it this way:
-The Assyrian King's will was that he was simply going to attack and "cut down the nations"
-God used the Assyrian King's will of attack as a tool to punish the Isrealites.
-God still punished the Assyrian king because his thoughts/actions/will were evil - even though God used them.

   So in essence, God did not influence or determine the king's will, He simply used it (as He so often does) to fulfil His own will/purposes. This is my understanding, feel free to point any holes you might see

ttalks:
Yeah, I know definition actually plays a large role here.

But, the truth is a free will is one that is displayed by making choices/decisions of your own without any form of pressure,or influence, or cause.
The fact is that: no choice or decision made is without influence or cause.
The choice made is dependent on a cause.
Without the cause,the choice made would not have been made.

Leading to the conclusion that there is no choice without a cause/influence; which means there is nothing like a free will.

I think free will should have better been called: Will without influence or Free of influence/cause - will.

Based on these, I think that our wills are determined by the things God sets into action.

There are definite responses to some conditions or situations; there are also diverse responses to certain conditions.

I don't agree fully agree here as it would insinuate that God mischieviously manipulates us into doing[i] His [/i] will and I know this is not your position.

I believe that God knows ahead of time what we will choose, what we will think, what we will decide - and then He uses that to accomplish His will on earth. However I do agree that our will is influenced, affected etc by external factors. So while perhaps the term itself "freewill" may be lacking, I still think that when most people consider the term, they simply think of it as the "freedom to make choices".

banom:
So as i have rejected it, will you and your bible accept the fact that i have my rightt to reject it and leave me alone , not to be threatening me with everlasting hell?

Banom dear, you are free to do and choose whatsoever your heart desires. And since you've rejected the bible, concepts taught in it such as heaven and hell and salvation and damnation shouldn't bother you? right?

Meanwhile remember to join the site i gave you.

lol naijasingles ke? haven't you heard I am neither single nor nigerian? - according to NL standards that is

banom:
Is a lie , your bible does not allow us to have freewill, you threaten us with hell if we dont accept the teachings of the bible. how is that a chance for us to have freewill ?

you have just exercised your 'free will' by rejecting the teachings of the bible. So . . . what exactly is your beef brotha? You are free to either accept it or reject it, love it or hate, believe it or trash it - this is your free will.

Cool topic. Ttalks, I think this is a matter of definition.

Free will is simply the freedom of human beings make choices. I think this is the unconscious definition most people hold to.

Now whether our choices are affected, influenced, forced or caused by external factors does not eliminate or diminish the fact that we still chose to make those choices/decisions. Hope this makes sense.

JK, don't mind them jare lol anytime I talk smack on a popularly accepted as 'great' movie Max enjoys flaunting my affection for Norbit as grounds for dismissal.

No I haven't seen Sango oh. I was trying to keep quiet since it seems everyone has seen it lol

iice,
girl you were right, it wasn't 'The Descent' which I actually watched just yesterday (the one with an all women cast). Now I'm twisting my brains out trying to recall the correct name of the other movie did you find out?

Vesc please do jor . . . it cannot be only iice and myself who found it funny on this thread.

[quote author=Mad_Max link=topic=173006.msg4718883#msg4718883 date=1255361605]You're laughing me half to death with all those boring boring borings right now. As they say in Germany: Na Vah vor You.[/quote]I guess the german-speak is as a result of your recent Inglorious digest? How was it? I dunno why I don't want to see it.

spikedcylinder:
Yo', Jesoul! What do you think about Steven Seagal and Van Damme? Best actors in the whole wide world, huh?

ha Nico! lol
I stand by my stance. I'd rather watch a cheesy action/comedy flick over a so-called acclaimed bore of a movie such as "There will be blood" which Max aptly retitled "They will be bored" 

justkunmi:
JS.
I.asked.for.Tom.and.Jerry. . . . your.recommending.Drugs.and.Forensics. !
Hnmmm. .lets.see. . .
Ok.send.it.to.my.inbox.

Havent.seen.Meteor.o. Any.good.? Would.look.for.it. .
U.seen.Sango.?

You.have.my.email.addy?

Nah here's mine, I'll take it off here once you reply.

Meteor was cheesy in a cute way . . . or maybe its becos I like Connery so I was biased lol. It was made in 1979 so naturally the graphics are terribly cheesy but that I can understand but the script and dialogue were just as cheesy and one-liner-ish. Not a good oldie.

Spiked,
   I thot we already established somewhere else that you were indeed just hitting your tweens? 

As for Max, she knows deep down inside the corners of her hardened, ER non-scaring heart that she loves me and Norbit