₦airaland Forum

Nuclearboy,
If you want direct answers, then ask me direct questions. I dont have business with jackcoe, KC Price and the rest of them. If you want to know if faith works, yeah ! im a withness. I cast out devils, and i see the sick healed by laying on of hands in fulfilment of Jesus words, which evidence you lack in your own life, because you cantt be a miracle worker and make mockery of thessame. You are getting insultive now and I dont really know your point. Lets focus on the Topic of the Thread.

nuclearboy:
@Joagbaje:

One question for you:- the above - do you believe [1] they didn't claim it enough [2] they didn't have enough faith [3] they were sinners (your definition of that is "not born-again) and so God couldn't listen to them [4] the "witches and wizards" in their respective families were too powerful for their faith OR [5] God cannot be controlled by our words and demands but remains Supreme and "shows mercy to whom He will" "when He will"?

If you have another answer aside of the above, I would love to hear it without much posturizing i.e. as simply put as possible

Enjoy your day, Bro!

Well we are dealing with salvation here and not healing. You may open a new thread on this. But I will say this ; It is not everything written in that article that is correct. Some lies are there. But nonetheless, Every man work by teir convictions. We dont all belive thesame thing. They were not perfect people. They dont all know what some of us know today. A man answer for himself. Even if their faith fail in one or two areas , they haveconquered thousands of challenges by faith. . How many of their testimonies of faith have you listen to personally? Critics only major in the flaws of others, Several men of the bible days had their flaws too.But let God be true.Even Jesus had his own challenges, His faith shook . He alsmost didnt want to go to the cross.He chose a thief to be his cashier.

Matthew 13:57-58
And they were offended in him. But Jesus said unto them, A prophet is not without honour, save in his own country, and in his own house. [58] And he did not many mighty works there because of their unbelief.

nuclearboy:
^^^ Admission (to me) above does not mean anyone caught you stealing or lying; but that you admitted there was "something" in Enigma's favor which "disfavored" you. For you to have said "I wish you didn't see that" meant there was something to it. And showed you to be honest enough to accept truth when its laid bare.

We (I believe I speak for Enigma and others here especially Aletheia) have no problems at all with you. That is what I wish those of you with the WOF persuasion would understand. Its just these "superiority" issues which usually end up proven delusional that scares us and THOSE superiority issues never allow you try to listen to any contrariness. Which is sad, for that is a sign of humility, a desire to learn more and understand more and a proof of "anti-fanaticism".

Maybe I should make my point clearer: I got the following from a few minutes search on google and tell you sir, it is by no means exhaustive:

[1] A. A. Allen was "said" to have died of Cardiac Arrest. In truth, he died from Liver Sclerosis. This was a man who allegedly healed thousands and claimed that whatever he "faithed" was "birthed".

[2] Jamie Buckingham (another WOFer and charismatic author) died of cancer. Why didn't his claims of healing become true?

[3] We have heard of your Pastor (Chris Oyakilome) commanding healing over a "wound" in his body. So what happened to William Branham who died of injuries sustained from a car accident? He had six days after (before he died) and was able to talk, eat etc.

[4] Charles Capps said "I don't deny the existence of disease. I deny the right of that disease to exist in this body, because I'm the Body of Christ." (Capps, The Tongue, pg. 43). His wife died of cancer!

[5] Jack Coe warned followers "that the day would come when those who consulted physicians would have to take the mark of the beast." Coe (subsequently) became critically ill with bulbar polio , (and) took the "mark of the beast" and was admitted to the hospital. (Hank Hanegraaff, Counterfeit Revival, 1997, pg. 137 citing Harrell, All Things Are Possible, 101)

[6] Word of Faith teacher & pastor of Faith Assembly Hobart Freeman - over 90 people died in his church following his teaching and then Hobart died due to a medically treatable disease.

[b]I personally respect Hobart & his misguided followers. They actually took the teachings of the WOF movement to their logical conclusion. They stood on the "promises" alone and believed in their doctrine enough to face painful deaths instead of refusing to deny what they believed. Hobart Freeman is the most chilling testimony of the complete bankruptcy of the WOF errors. If WOF teachings were true they would have certainly worked for Hobart and the 90+ people who died in "faith believing." (BTW - Hobart is a name NONE of the WOF'ers mention, he was too serious about the teachings). (Robert Liichow, Sick Healers)

After a 15 year old girl whose parents belong to Faith Assembly, died of a medically treatable malady, the parents were convicted of negligent homicide and sentenced to ten years in prison. Freeman himself was charged with aiding and inducing reckless homicide in the case. Shortly afterward, on December 8, 1984, Freeman himself died, interestingly enough of pneumonia and heart failure complicated by a severely ulcerated leg. [/b]

Hobart Freeman's theology did not allow him to acknowledge that Polio had left one of his legs disfigured and lame. Quote, he said, "I have my healing." And that is all he would say when anyone pointed out the rather conspicuous inconsistency between his physical disabilities and his theology. Ultimately, his refusal to acknowledge his infirmities cost him his life. He had dutifully, according to his own theology, refused all medical treatment for the maladies that were killing him, and medical science could easily have prolonged his life, but in the end he was a victim of his own teaching. (John McArthur, Does God Still Heal, Grace Community Church in Panorama City, California, transcribed from the tape, GC 90-60, titled "Charismatic Chaos" Part 9)

[7] Kenneth Hagin. "Father" of the Word of Faith Movement - sister died of cancer. Hagin’s great faith and special anointing could not keep her alive and on the planet. BTW, Buddy Harrison (Hagins son-in-law) also died of cancer. Please read "I believe in Visions" by Hagin for the promises he elieved and lived by.

[8] RUTH WARD HEFLIN A self-proclaimed power preacher and healer, Heflin's untimely death of cancer made more news. A Religious News Service story reported: "Revivalist Ruth Ward Heflin Dead at 60. -- Revivalist Ruth Ward Heflin, known for her role in the so-called "gold dust" revival involving churches across the globe, died Friday (9/15/00) at a Richmond, VA hospital. Heflin, who had suffered from cancer for several months was 60. , She directed the Calvary Pentecostal Campground in Ashland, VA which was founded by her parents in the 1050s and later led by her brother, Wallace, who died in 1997. (The Christian News, 9/25/00, pg. 10 as cited in "The Life And Times Of Golden Girl And Globetrotter Ruth Ward Heflin, by G. Richard Fisher, Personal Freedom Outreach, The Quarterly Journal, January-March, 2001, pg. 5)

Heflin suffered a broken ankle in an automobile accident last year. In April, doctors diagnosed her with bosom cancer that already had spread to her bones. Heflin underwent a mastectomy on April 25, but refused chemotherapy or further cancer treatment because she said the Lord told her to refuse, according to Connie Wilson, her personal assistant. (Renee DeLoriea, "Ruth Ward Heflin, Revivalist and Prayer Minister, Dies At Age 60.", Charisma Magazine, November 2000, pg. 21)

[9] Benny Hinn is no stranger to mishap and sickness, yet he preaches that those who truly have "faith" will have no need of money and will be without sickness. Since Hinn boasts of having a superior "anointing" and even claimed to be "a little messiah" and "a little god", why is it that he cannot heal himself or his family? Two cases in point.

The (airplane) accident occurred in Avon Park, Fla. (south of Orlando) on (Thursday morning) May 26, 1983, at approximately 12:35 a.m. Hinn, along with his wife, Suzanne, a pilot and co-pilot, and two other passengers were returning to Orlando from a religious service held Wednesday evening in
Naples. Approximately 20 minutes from Orlando, the aircraft experienced power loss due to "fuel starvation." The pilot turned the plane around and attempted to land at the nearest available airport, Avon Park Municipal Airport. Due to the loss of power the aircraft hit several trees during its landing approach and crashed into a field about 200-300 yards short of the runway. The plane had flipped over from impact, lying on its topside.

The Orlando Sentinel newspaper reported all six occupants were injured and admitted to the hospital. Five remained in the hospital for treatments. The Avon Park News Sun reported the following information on Hill:

"Hill was the most seriously injured person in the crash, having to be transported to Florida Hospital in Orlando for plastic surgery. , Reports have it that Hill suffered serious injuries to the head in the accident. He was never admitted to Walker Memorial Hospital as were the other passengers, as he was transferred almost immediately. , The Hinns were transferred from Walker Memorial to Florida Hospital so they could be closer to their homes."

The Avon Park paper also reported Hinn "said he was in a state of shock" and that he said "It will be the last time I will ever fly in one of these (single engine airplane) again." Hinn did not report any miracles at the scene, neither did the newspapers, sheriff, other victims or witnesses to the crash. The Florida Hospital in Orlando confirmed the admission and stay of both Hinn and his wife, Suzanne. Their records show both were admitted on May 26, 1983, with Benny released on May 28 and Suzanne on May 29. (SOURCE: The Confusing World Of Benny Hinn, Fisher & Goedelman, pg. 60, emphasis ours)

Another fact to take into account is that Suzanne Hinn has been reported to have been suffering from mental problems for a number of years and has been on medications. I have this on authority from some private sources. You can also see evidence of this from her behavior captured on videos, especially the now infamous "Holy Ghost enema" rant. She was also arrested for shoplifting in South Africa.

“Prosecutor Brandon Lawrence told the Cape Times that although he believed he had a strong case against Penny Hinn, he had dropped the serious charges because the court roll was full. . . The Benny Hinn Ministries in Florida, US, yesterday at first declined to comment on the matter, preferring instead to answer questions in writing. However, when pressed further a woman at the ministry… said pastor Hinn was married to Suzanne. This is the name Hinn says she uses in the US. He [the prosecutor] had earlier considered sending her for psychiatric evaluation. Hinn, who describes herself as a religious person, was arrested at Edgars Store in Adderley Street on December 4 and released on R1,000 bail for allegedly stealing two sets of ladies pajamas.” (sic) (Source: The Cape Times, Cape Town South Africa. Article from Court Reporter, Motshidisi Mokwena)

At the end of (the Godstuff) clip she is shouting and making gestures like a charging bull, charging across the platform back and forth and then sliding to a stop on her belly across the floor. She remained there apparently "slain in the spirit" for several minutes as Hinn's Assistant Pastor explained to visitors of the Orlando Christian Center what this strange behavior was supposedly about. (Video Source: Comedy Central, The Daily Show: Godstuff,28.8K Clip, 56k Clip)

That she suffers from mental problems is without doubt. Is she also suffering demonic episodes? You have to wonder. In either case, no healing has come miraculously for the Hinns through Benny. I thought Hinn was the "man of faith"!

Hinn also prophesied in a crusade in Hawaii in 1997 that the Lord told him he would live to be 96 years old. Only time will tell, but judging from the untimely deaths of most faith healers it is highly doubtful he will last that long. If Hinn cannot heal himself and his wife, what makes him expect he can live long enough to heal anyone else?

[10] E.W. KENYON

E.W. Kenyon studied at the Emerson College of Oratory in Boston which was a hotbed at the time for the emerging New age thought. They imagined they have discovered laws of faith, promoting a Christianized version of occultism. Kenyon had divorced his wife even when he taught that what one speaks they will possess. E.W Kenyon who is certainly the Father of the Word of Faith Movement taught divine healing and that it was always God's will to heal. But he died in a coma, brought on by a malignant tumor. He died from disease. (Mike Oppenheimer, Let Us Reason Ministries, Death By Faith, http://www.letusreason.org/Wf25.htm)

[11] AIMEE SEMPLE MCPHERSON - Another acknowledged divine healer - died of a barbiturate overdose. Why was she taking pills in the first place? Wasn't the "peace" of God enough for her?

While the Dictionary of Pentecostal and Charismatic Movements deals with the controversial aspects of "Sister Aimee's" life -- her mysterious disappearances and alleged affairs, multiple marriages (two of which ended in divorce), and death from an apparent drug overdose -- it is strangely silent about her theatrical preoccupation with the slain in the spirit phenomenon. (Hank Hanegraaff, Counterfeit Revival, 1997, 168)

Betty K.C. Price was treated for cancer.
Joyce Meyers - cancer - medically treated
Daisy Osborn (TL Osborn's wife) -died of cancer
Dodie Osteen (wife of John Osteen) - contracter liver cancer but ran for medical treatment and survived.
John Osteen himself though, confessed his healing when diagnosed with multiple issues. After stating "God" told him he'd be preaching in his 90s, he died in his 70s. He had kidney dialysis, then heart catherization, then a pacemaker was inserted for him. He knew he needed a miracle and claimed God gave him Ps 27:14. He "confessed" his healing and the creative transformation of his kidneys and heart but died soon after.
Rod Parsely was recently admitted for back surgery despite all his claims of "name it and claim it". He has a deaf section in his church by the way. Why those in that section remain deaf is a matter to be considered since he can claim it.

If someone says they are having heart trouble and they deny this symptom claiming their healing by faith they could die. A perfect example of this is when Oral Roberts was on Paul Crouch on "Praise the Lord" show on TBN (October 6, 1992). I watched as Crouch was asked to lay hands on Oral Roberts to minister to his chest pains, Roberts exclaimed, "I feel the healing power of Jesus!" and said it felt like an "electric current go through him." Paul you are anointed. Oral Roberts was pronounced healed on TBN. But was he really? It was reported less than four hours later, while visiting a home in Newport Beach, Roberts felt more pains and was hospitalized at Hoag Presbyterian Memorial Hospital (also in Newport Beach), shortly after midnight. Subsequent articles report that Roberts' heart attack was "near fatal." ("Evangelist Has Tests," The Orange County [CA] Register [Dec.16 1992], A-7) the healing evangelist now has a pacemaker ("Roberts Out of Hospital," The Orange County [CA] Register (2l December 1992), A-30). Of course this is ignored by the crowds following his doctrine. One can only wonder why?

R.W. SCHAMBACH Faith Healer - got a quadruple heart bypass (from a real live human doctor)

"You don't have any problems, all you need is faith in God." (R.W. Schambach, TBN)

Maybe so, but isn't it nice that He has provided doctors too? Without them, R.W. would have long ago faced his judgment.

RUTH CARTER STAPLETON

Another one that comes to mind, Ruth Carter Stapleton, was the Faith Healing sister of former United States President Jimmie Carter. [She] refused medical treatment for cancer because of her belief in faith healing. She died of the disease in 1983. (John McArthur, Does God Still Heal, Grace Community Church in Panorama City, California, transcribed from the tape, GC 90-60, titled "Charismatic Chaos" Part 9)

You might say the above will not edify the reader. Fine, but it will keep them alive and "a live dog is better than a dead lion". What is the point of delusion if there is no "profit" being made from these lies. Look at the names above again. Wealth comes to mind. Sweet talking smoothness also comes to mind. These are/were people who found it easy to convince you to follow them (with your possessions, of course). But looking at the list and the end we see in their lives again - another word comes to mind - DECEIT! A sham.

":For what profiteth it a man, to win the whole world, but lose his soul" - Jesus Christ!

Bro, have a great day!

Others of your persuation have pasted this article before and I believe its from thesame anti faith website. You should question the motive behind such. . Because you are dealing with people that dont understand the workings of faith and deny the power of the holyspirit because they dont know him.

All they need do is to recieve Christ as lord, Then they are saved , even on death bed. But It is not the confession of sins that brings salvation but the confession of Jesus Christ as lord. If all they do is confess "sins" They will die and go to hell.

Romans 10:9
That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved.

Acts 13:48
And when the Gentiles heard this, they were glad, and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed.

@ Poster,
This does not mean that God chose some for salvation and chose others to hell . This only makes reference to a particular meeting. It is not everybody that get saved in a meeting. Some that got saved yeasterday have heard the gospel several times but were still unsaved. But now they are saved. You cant say because they didnt get saved last year , they are damned forever. And if someone doesnt get saved today, it doesnt mean he wont get saved tommorow, When we prepare for an outreach, we pray and fast for souls to be saved, If we dont prepare well ,God would only touch few according to our preparation prayerfully. one person may make altar call and thousands come forward , but another person that has lesser grace makes altar calll and just one or two respond. So We are responsible for the result, even though we know it is the holyghost that does the conversion, he works with our faith.


Psalm 2:8
Ask of me, and I shall give thee the heathen for thine inheritance,

So we have our part of intercession. The purpose is to break demonic influence from people's hearts, so that their hearts are free to recieve the word of God. In a service there are number of people that have been marked for salvation, But that doesnt mean that the others are damned.The blood of Jesus has redeemed all. It is left for individuals to embrace salvation.

2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

Enigma.
, I had said earlier that the kingdom has two parts. . There is a difference between "The Kingdom of God " and "the Kingdom of Heaven" Even though the 2 are used interchangably.One represents his Political structure,the other represents spiritual and moral structure. The Kingdom of heaven is headed by Christ , and we are in the Kingdom of Christ and Kingdom of heaven now. The patriachs of old are in the kingdom of God. The Kingdom of God has always been .It ran from past to the future. But the Kindom of heaven is a temporal one which will run for a period. The kingdom of heaven is to establish the kingdom of God on the earth in the futrure.Christ is the head and king in the Kingdom of heaven but God the father is king in the kingdom of God which is overall. There are similaritie between the two kingdoms because the kindom of heaven is a part of the kingdom of God. But careful study also show that there are things that are not applicable in the two kngdoms. From my own study,The Kindom of heaven is also the kingdom of Christ. I can summarise my findings below.

.Col. 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
The Patriachs of old are not part of this.Participating in the life of Christ. It is a mystery to them.God hid it from them,

Col. 1:26-27
Even the mystery which hath been hid from ages and from generations, but now is made manifest to his saints: [27] To whom God would make known what is the riches of the glory of this mystery among the Gentiles; which is Christ in you, the hope of glory:

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God.

Even though they prophesied about it,they didnt have opportunity to partake of it. they didnt know what they prophesied, The Patriachs of Old are only watching us from the grandstand. Infact they are learning from us about the life of Christ inside a man.

On the other hand , The Kingdom of God is past, pressent and future. The Patriachs of Old are aldeady part of The Kingdom of God. The Kingdom of Heaven is part of the Kingdom of God. The Phrase "Kingdom of God" may be used in generic terms but there is difference. With careful study you will know that The Kingdom of heaven is associated with the messiah and The Kingdom of God associate s with the father, At the close of this age , through the Kingdom of heaven, Christ will establish the Kingdom of God on the earth.

Cor. 15:24
Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. [/color]

So when Jesus said,

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
He is making reference to the new system of salvation in the now, The OT system of salvation has come to and end and now, if a man has to enter the kingdom , He has to be born again.
John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

Enigma

Insert Quote
You have a big heart Joagbaje and I truly appreciate that.

Trust me, I have no intention to nail you. My intention is to cause you to re-examine your current beliefs. If all you do is go back and sit down, take some time to think things through thoroughly, I think that would be enough. However, what would give me the greatest joy is for you to see that WoF theology, for the sake of appealing to the flesh (e.g. the claim that you are superior to Moses, Elijah etc) stretches or twists biblical truth into error or even heresy. In my view, that is where you are but I pray that by God's grace you will come back into the truth.

My brother, trust me that we have nothing to gain from challenging WoF theology for the sake of it; or for castigating Oyakhilome and the rest  of them just for the sake of it. We HONESTLY believe that they are leading well intentioned people astray into error and heresy!

If this thread/discussion stops right here, I'm happy enough with it.
God bless.[/qoute]

Thank you,
I did a study on this some time ago , about the difference between the kingdom of heaven and the kingdom of God .There is a difference, It has also been an issue of debate among theologians., That is why i tried to avoid getting into it   The only challenge I was having is the fact that they were used interchangably in few places,
But I am surprised you are not aware of the schools of thoughts about this. If you just google up a little " The kingdom of God  vs The kingdom of Heaven" you will see a world of teachings on this.

Here is just one of the many many links. http://www.learnthebible.org/kingdom-of-god-and-kingdom-of-heaven.html

nuclearboy:
^^^ Over and over, reading Joagbaje, I get this impression of someone trying (desperately atimes) to justify something he's not 100% certain is right but which he got caught up in. Maybe 99% that became 95% and is being considered right now for a 75% mark. That would decidedly make him a "true" christian as we all need to re-examine ourselves, lifestyle and belief system else we be found "out in the cold".

His admission above makes me think myself right about him and I hope he will do as you have said.

I have said earlier, if I am proven wrong in my understanding of scriptures, i will gladly accept, If there is need, i will tender puplic appology. I didnt write the bible. My admission, to Enigma   was not that i was covering something, but ITs been a long debate, which we may not ready for  and besides it is outside the topic of the thread .
If you just google up a little "kingdom of God vs Kingdom  of heaven. " You will see a world of schools of thoughts.
So i didnt fabricate the  idea to win an arguement.

@Enigma

Enigma:
Joagbaje

Thanks for the effort, I honestly appreciate it. Back to the issue at hand, you felt into a trap that I thought you had spotted. Here, let's try again:

Jesus' words in John 3:3

Jesus' words in Luke 13:28


Do you want to try again?

You are right, I had wished you didnt see that. but dont get me wrong , I only wanted the discussion to end as fast as possible , I didnt want to get caught up in this Topic, not that I was wrong but it is a lenghty matter and we can only have way forward if we are seeking truth about this issue. but if what you want is to nail me, I should just surrender before we start. But if its with open mind,I will , after service.

Chrisbenogor:
Just to save us from getting into a long winded conversation about what born again means, lets say he was a born again christian, then he became possessed maybe by something he did. Better still if he was not in control of his will how does he make the decision to be born again?

I dont understand your post so well . A born again can not be possesed by the devil. but he could be influeced , opressed and obsessed by demons if he allows it by engaging in things that could open him up for such. If a man does something wrong under the influence of a spirit,; the man is inocent, he needs help. The spirit needs to be cast out of him. But he is a criminal as long as the police is concerned. but he is innocent as far as God is concerned

No miracle worker will criticise another , because they both live in truth. Those who criticise miracles are men that are blind to the supernatural. and their criticicm are not bible based. They may love God and be very religious ,but they lack the supernatural. Jesus was labelled for using juju also "Bellzebub" by blind men of God as well. It is thesame devils and demons that attack miracles today.

They are glorifying God rather in these men. Jesus taught that men could glorify God through us.

Matthew 5:16
Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

Galatians 1:24
And they glorified God in me.

Claping is a form of expression of joy, and also to glorify God.

Psalm 98:8
Let the floods clap their hands: let the hills be joyful together

Psalm 47:1
To the chief Musician, A Psalm for the sons of Korah.
O clap your hands, all ye people; shout unto God with the voice of triumph.


Matthew 9:6-8
But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power on earth to forgive sins, (then saith he to the sick of the palsy,) Arise, take up thy bed, and go unto thine house. [7] And he arose, and departed to his house. [8] But when the multitudes saw it, they marvelled, and glorified God, which had given such power unto men.

Mark 2:12
And immediately he arose, took up the bed, and went forth before them all; insomuch that they were all amazed, and glorified God, saying, We never saw it on this fashion.

Luke 5:26
And they were all amazed, and they glorified God, and were filled with fear, saying, We have seen strange things to day.

Luke 7:16
And there came a fear on all: and they glorified God, saying, That a great prophet is risen up among us; and, That God hath visited his people.

In as much as it is supposed to be a spiritual thing, we cant deny they fact that ,men could get charged up emotionaly sometimes.

Luke 11:27
And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him, Blessed is the womb that bare thee, and the paps which thou hast sucked.

People are free to express themselves before God. nobody is forced to clap. And if for any reason, such instructions is given, what we hear is " Give God a big hand" " give God praise" "lets clap for the lord Jesus"

@ InesQor

InesQor:
@Joagbaje:
I beg to disagree, sir.

Being born of the Spirit means being Spirit-controlled even in the face of "normal human behaviour". See john 3:7-8 where Jesus compares it to the blowing wind. It is a walk of faith and reliance on God.

The only person in the Bible besides Jesus who spoke of being born again, is Peter in 1 Peter 1:23, and he clearly says that its the incorruptible word of God that makes one born again. Noah received this word of God by faith and it transformed his experience, as much as Saul of Tarsus did. Thus both are as born again as each other.

On the contrary being born again is in several scriptures both old and new testament, It means to be recreated , regenerated, born of God, Eternal life.etc.
To mention few scriptures,

Psalm 102:16-18
When the Lord shall build up Zion, he shall appear in his glory. [17] He will regard the prayer of the destitute, and not despise their prayer. [18] This shall be written for the generation to come: and the people which shall be created shall praise the Lord.

John 1:13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

2 Cor. 5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

Galatians 6:15 For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature.

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath begotten us again unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead,

Titus 3:5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;

John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again.

1 Peter 1:23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

To be born again is actually a rebirth of the new man. When a man receives eternal life. He is a completely new person.

The only difference in aspect is that the Spirit filled OT saints selectively, while for NT saints there is no partial selectivity across persons, times and purposes. They still have one thing in common though, the Spirit will not move against your faith in God and reliance on His Word.

. None are better than the other, although the former ones worked with much less to obtain the very much same life.

The Seal is the Holy Spirit, the seal was available by proxy to the OT saints via IOUs issued while waiting for the King, Christ, to be born on earth. They looked forward as we look backwards but as Peter said, its the very same word of God that makes us Born Again.

InesQor,
Men were saved by works in the Old Testament, and not by faith in Christ. They were judged according to the law. . Every Jew knew that messiah was coming, According to your illustration, every jew should be saved, because from childhood ,they were taught about the messiah. But salvation was not based on this, Thier salvation was based on their obedience to jewish law. .especially keeping away from other gods. and other jewish laws. It has no connection with faith in Christ. Their salvation was not by faith but of works. How much laws you obey, "I better pass my neighbour". The law kept isreal until faith came. faith only came after Jesus died.

Galatians 3:21-25
Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law. [22] But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
[23] But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed. [24] Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith. [25] But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.

Enigma

Enigma:
In addition to my first reply above: we have made clear that Old Testament saints were born again.

In fact the challenge still remains for Joagbaje (and you or any of his supporters):

How can Abraham be in or enter the kingdom of God, if he was not born again, when Jesus said except a man be born again he cannot see the kingdom of God?

You didnt make anything clear but rather confirmed the fact that the OT folk Could not have the indwelling spirit , and the answer is simple, "They were not born again" Even though they were saved according to the standard of OT salvation.
The LIfe We have in Christ idifferentiate2s us from them. IT is a mystery. The fact that they prophesied about these things does not not mean they partook. A man has to be regenerated in the inner man , to recieve the holyghos . The early apostles belived in Christ but could not recieve the holyghost until the got born again. .Right now They only watch us now from the grandstand They are actualy learning from us, "how can God's life be in a man?"

1 John 5:11-13
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life. [13] These things have I written unto you that believe on the name of the Son of God; that ye may know that ye have eternal life, and that ye may believe on the name of the Son of God. [/color]

Enigma.
Concerning your question, I have pondered to know the best approach to it to avoid escalating controversy,  I had said earlier that the the Kindom has 2 parts , The now, and  the world to come.

There is a difference between the kingdom of God and the kingdom of Heaven.

John 3:3
   Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

[color=#990000]Matthew 8:11
And I say unto you, That many shall come from the east and west, and shall sit down with Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, in the kingdom of heaven. [/color]

mabell:
@Enigma
the above only supports what joagbaje said.
the people under the old testament could not have the indwelling of the spirit because their spirits were dead since they were not born again
being born again is the regeneration of the holy ghost in the inner man that is the spirit man

Seconded, The truth is coming out gradually. InesQo should see the link for a start

aletheia:
I am not sure the other side will agree with you (Joagbaje seems to have gone silent).

What was the role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament?

The role of the Holy Spirit in the Old Testament was not principally different from the role of the Holy Spirit in the New
Testament. While there are some differences, there's an essential unity between the two Testaments.

Because of the nature of sin in man's spirit, They could not contain the holyghost is their dead spirit. The holyghost could only come on them, but not dwelling in their spirits like ours.

John 14:17
Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 7:39
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)

@InesQor

InesQor:
@Joagbaje & nuella2:
Let me try to shed some more light on the Essence of the person of Christ as I have come to understand it.

From the very beginning to the end, Christ the Son of God, in whom dwells the fullness of the Godhead, has been, is, and will be present and remains the ONLY way to the Father. But even in the physical, Christ has always been there, and in many more revelations than as a man. He was the lamb slain from before the world's foundations.

In the OT, Christ was typified from the instance of the initial covering of the unclothedness of Adam and Eve, to Abel's pure sacrifice, to the ark of Noah's baptism, to the promise that Abraham received, etc etc into aspects of the law like the passover and atonement, the Rock of water, the Manna of heaven, the Serpent that was hung for healing, etc etc.

According to God's promise to avenge Eve (since satan got man down, a man had to conquer him in return), the last typification of Christ on earth was as a man, the man Jesus Christ. This man-clothed God referred to himself using these various typifications that earlier represented him in the Old Testament. But for that they sought to kill him. They never sought to abolish the passover for instance, or discredit Noah's ark, or say the manna was just a myth! This is the stubbornness of human hearts, because they saw him like them in the flesh. They never once realized Christ had always been there. Abraham rejoiced to see his day, before Abraham was, Christ is.

The very same faith with which Noah built an ark is the same faith with which one confesses Jesus Christ as Lord. Their reward of being "Born Again" is equal. Their salvation is equal. None is superior to the other.

For the same reason, I believe there may be people today who never heard of the man Jesus but are "Born again", i.e. Born from Above because God communicated Christ to them the same way he communicated Christ to Noah, Enoch, Abraham, David and other OT saints.

I believe it is wrong to claim a monopoly on the Christ for us just because we know him in the flesh. There arelthose who knew him in essence before His revelation in the flesh, and their faith was imputed unto them as righteousness. Just like yours was imputed too, when you got born again by faith in Christ become flesh.
Faith in Christ is what makes one born again.

I quire agree with most of powerful expositions you rendered.  But i have disagreement with the statements below.

The very same faith with which Noah built an ark is the same faith with which one confesses Jesus Christ as Lord. Their reward of being "Born Again" is equal. Their salvation is equal. None is superior to the other.
For the same reason, I believe there may be people today who never heard of the man Jesus but are "Born again", i.e. Born from Above because God communicated Christ to them the same way he communicated Christ to Noah, Enoch, Abraham, David and other OT saints
There are those who knew him in essence before His revelation in the flesh, and their faith was imputed unto them as righteousness. Just like yours was imputed too, when you got born again by faith in Christ become flesh.
Faith in Christ is what makes one born again,

Righteousness under the law is quite different from righteousness in Christ. A man could be called righteous unter the OT because of some righteous act. They became riighteous. but In Christ , a Christ ian is not just a righteous man, he has become the essence of ritghreousness itself. Under OT righteousness, was measurable , e.g "Mr A " is more righteous than "B" but No one is as righteous as God. But in Christ we have thesame righteoisness as God! . We have his nature, his life.

2 Cor. 5:21
   For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him.

What they had under OT was righteous ness by acts, Righteousness of  man or of the Law, not the righteousness of God!

Romans 10:3
   For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.

Philip. 3:9
   And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

It is important in the above staement  to know , that Paul already had the righteousness of the Law (saved and born again by your definition.) . So going by your definition, he didnt  need a saviour again. He was already "perfect by the law standard. But he counted it as dung.

All that aside. The major bone of contention is the use of the word "Born again", for the OT folks. IT is  not true,
Man is  aspirit, He died spiritualy, All that came through Adam were spiritually dead as well. Even though they were  worshipppers of God , they were still dead spiritually.

Romans 5:14
   Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Romans 5:12
   Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

It will be worhty to note that this death is not making reference to physical death. We were all born spiritually dead. Remember the  words of Jesus.

Luke 9:60
   Jesus said unto him, Let the dead bury their dead: but go thou and preach the kingdom of God.

Can a dead  man rise up to bury another? certainly not. He was referering to spiritual death. because everyone going for the burial were spiritually dead  even though they were seed of Abraham. This is the reason for receiving life inChrist.

Have you observed that nobody in the OT was filled with the holyghost. ?. You can only recieve the holyghost when you get born again. . When a man recieve Jesus Christ, He is born a new. He is recreated in his spirit. A brand new spirit.

Ezekiel 11:19
   And I will give them one heart, and I will put a new spirit within you; and I will take the stony heart out of their flesh, and will give them an heart of flesh:

Ezekiel 36:26
   A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

This new spirit ,is the new creation. Nobody had this experience  in OT. We are the first to be born after God with thesame life.
This is a mystery that all the prophets of old never knew.



Ephes. 3:3-21
[3] How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words, [4] Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ) [5] Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit; [6] That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel: [7] Whereof I was made a minister, according to the gift of the grace of God given unto me by the effectual working of his power. [8] Unto me, who am less than the least of all saints, is this grace given, that I should preach among the Gentiles the unsearchable riches of Christ; [9] And to make all men see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the world hath been hid in God, who created all things by Jesus Christ: [10] To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God, [11] According to the eternal purpose which he purposed in

Altheia ,
The fact that they drank from rock (Christ) did not mean jesus was that rock, It was merely figirative as parts of types and shaddows of the OT. I can give you others.

jacob had a revelation that sybolised Christ
Genesis 28:11-12
And he lighted upon a certain place, and tarried there all night, because the sun was set; and he took of the stones of that place, and put them for his pillows, and lay down in that place to sleep. [12] And he dreamed, and behold a ladder set up on the earth, and the top of it reached to heaven: and behold the angels of God ascending and descending on it.

John 1:51
And he saith unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Hereafter ye shall see heaven open, and the angels of God ascending and descending upon the Son of man.

The brassen serpent moses lifted was a type of Christ. It was a shaddow of Christ on the cross.

Hebrews 8:5
Who serve unto the example and shadow of heavenly things, as Moses was admonished of God when he was about to make the tabernacle: for, See, saith he, that thou make all things according to the pattern shewed to thee in the mount.

Hebrews 10:1
For the law having a shadow of good things to come, and not the very image of the things, can never with those sacrifices which they offered year by year continually make the comers thereunto perfect.
Ive not read your post thoroughly, If I do I will give proper response

@InesQor
The difference between being born again and being saved is simple. God has standard of righteousness in different dispensations. The law has its starndard of righteousness. that is salvation according to OT standard.But that is not a born again experience. There's another set of people that were neighter under law nor under grace. Like our great, great great, grand fathers in the flesh who never had opportunity to know the gospel. Will they be saved? They will be judged by another standard, their conscience. Some of them will be saved. But that doesnt me they are born again.

Romans 2:12-15
For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; [13] (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified. [14] For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves: [15] Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another

Enigma,

Enigma:
Until you deal with Jesus' words about a person has to be born again to be in God's kingdom and that people will sit with Abraham in God's kingdom, nothing you have to say is worth thinking about.

I didnt get to see the post earlier. Abraham and the father's of faith are in the kingdom . I will respond in a moment

@ InesQor

InesQor:
Joagbaje: sorry if you are disappointed o, but that was not a yab. In as much as It was a joke, it was the truth. If the Bible and the RoR are saying different things, then one of them is a book of errors. Which one?

As for your discussion on hell, please be careful to note the wrongly translated versions of hell in the bible i.e. Hades. Gehenna and Tartarus are all translated as hell. Be careful.

OT Saints received salvation looking forward to Jesus' sacrifice the exact same way we receive salvation looking back to Jesus' sacrifice. God is not limited in time so they did not have to be without the salvation until Christ died. Yes, they were born again as much as any Christian is today. Our faith looks back as theirs looks forward.

I know the difference between Sheoul ,Gehenna ,Tartasus.

Im not saying am not saying old testament folks were not saved, they were saved before Jesus came according to God's standard of Judgement as at then. there is a difference between being saved and being (born again), nobody ever had the experience of being "born again "until Jesus came.

You are a man that used to deal with facts. Where did rhapsody go contrary to the bble. I will like you to respond

Paradise in hell was also called the blossom of Abraham, are you aware? remember the story of lazarus. They were held there against their will. because they were not born again with the life in Christ. Satan was God on earth. He even came for the Body of moses!
The fact that they prophesied about Christ doesnt mean they were born again. did they even understand their own prophecies. it was a mystery. The bible says they knew not what they prophesied about.

Think about this Enigma , was Paul not perfect according to  OT standard righteousness? But he had to be saved.

Philip. 3:8-9
   Yea doubtless, and I count all things but loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them but dung, that I may win Christ, [9] And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:

Hebrews 11:39-40
   And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Galatians 2:15-16
   We who are Jews by nature, and not sinners of the Gentiles, [16] Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.

If we go by your erronous analogy, There would be no need for Paul to be saved. He had zeal like you

Where do I star from with you guys; The kingdom of God is here now . We are in the kingdom. When you get born again. you will join us in this Kingdom!!

Col. 1:13
Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:
The life in the kingdom has started now. There is a political part and spiritual part. In the next world ,we only move to phase 2

Abraham is in heaven, Elijah is in heaven, Are you aware that despte the fact that they all died believing but because of their unregenerated nature, they were still under controll of satan. I just hope these simple things are not hard for you o. They were held in hell by the devil allthough they were in paradise and paradise was in hell at that time. Until Jesus was buried and went to the regions of the dead ,defeate the devil and set all of them captives free. All  these men are now in heaven now because when Jesus rose from the dead they all rose.

Matthew 27:52-53
   And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

and after this incidence Jesus carried them captives to heaven at his ascension.

Both the good and bad were captives of Satan under OT.

1 Peter 3:18-19
   For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

David prophesied about this.

Psalm 16:9-10
   Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. [10] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Ephes. 4:8-10
   Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Abraham is in heaven, Elijah is in heaven, Are you aware that despte the fact that they all died believing but because of their unregenerated nature, they were still under controll of satan. I just hope these simple things are not hard for you o. They were held in hell by the devil allthough they were in paradise and paradise was in hell at that time. Until Jesus was buried and went to the regions of the dead ,defeate the devil and set all of them captives free. All  these men are now in heaven now because when Jesus rose from the dead they all rose.

Matthew 27:52-53
   And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

and after this incidence Jesus carried them captives to heaven at his ascension.

Both the good and bad were captives of Satan under OT.

1 Peter 3:18-19
   For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

David prophesied about this.

Psalm 16:9-10
   Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. [10] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Ephes. 4:8-10
   Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Abraham is in heaven, Elijah is in heaven, Are you aware that despte the fact that they all died believing but because of their unregenerated nature, they were still under controll of satan. I just hope these simple things are not hard for you o. They were held in hell by the devil allthough they were in paradise and paradise was in hell at that time. Until Jesus was buried and went to the regions of the dead ,defeate the devil and set all of them captives free. All  these men are now in heaven now because when Jesus rose from the dead they all rose.

Matthew 27:52-53
   And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

and after this incidence Jesus carried them captives to heaven at his ascension.

Both the good and bad were captives of Satan under OT.

1 Peter 3:18-19
   For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [19] By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

David prophesied about this.

Psalm 16:9-10
   Therefore my heart is glad, and my glory rejoiceth: my flesh also shall rest in hope. [10] For thou wilt not leave my soul in hell; neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.


Ephes. 4:8-10
   Wherefore he saith, When he ascended up on high, he led captivity captive, and gave gifts unto men. [9] (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth? [10] He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.)

Nuella2
Which one is crown church?

Enigma
stop fighting, lets discuss, you are getting stuck now, and want to fight. Im i quoting from quoran?.

nucleaboy

nuclearboy:
You read Aletheia'a post ahead, saw incontrovertible evidence to the contrary direct (including straight quotes naming the mentioned saints) from "THE WORD OF GOD" and yet you have the nerve before the world to write Moses was "dead again"? .

You are the one that said they were dead again, and I answered in affirmative. Moses and all, They died in faith. But because of their fallen state which the blood of animals couldnt change, only the blood of Jesus could change the spiritual state of a man. They did not however become perfect. We are the ones that will bring perfection to them!

Hebrews 11:39-40
   And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Enigma and Nuclearboy, One thing has just been made clear, You guys are not born again , You dont even understand it.but you are very religious, probably you love God, But lets lay all these abuses opaks, pako and wofer nonsense jargons aside. keep an open mind. supposing you are wrong. Think about this

aletheia:
Certainly they were born again, unless what you understand by the term born again is different from what I believe that phrase means.
Question: Did Moses believe in Jesus or no
Question: Did Abraham believe in Jesus or not?
Question: Did David believe in Jesus or not?

What do you make of this scripture? Is it referring to new testament people or old testament saints:

Being born again goes beyond believing in God or in Christ. Being born again is as the word. "born" , birth.
Man is a spirit, he has a soul, he lives in a body.  The old testament folks worship God religiously, but God is not in religion , even though he allowed it and accepted it for the time being. God is a spirit and can only be fellowshiped with with our spirit.

John 4:23-24
   But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Man became spiritually dead at the fall of Adam. All the men that came before Christ were all dead in their spirit.This is actually the nature of sin. No matter how well they behaved, they were still sinners before God. So Adam o, Moses o, Elijah and all the prophets of old were dead in sin.

Romans 5:12
   Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Romans 5:14
   Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


To be born again is not just to believe in Jesus or believe in God . .Jesus was the first to be born of God.

John 1:18
   No man hath seen God at any time; the[b] only begotten Son[/b], which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.

Being born again is more than moral up bringing and religiousity.He was the first to be born of God.The reason he had to come was to give us the life of God,

John 10:10
I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly.

The spiritual birth is an instatanous experience and not a process.From Adam to the last prophet, all were under the dominion of satan.

Ephes. 2:1-2
   And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; [2] Wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience:

The moment a man recieves Christ , He become recreated in his spirit, he is born ane into God's kingdom .there is Kingdom shift. Instantly

Col. 1:13
   Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:

It is a participation in the kingdom life. Until a man recieves this life no matter how good ,or how much he confess sin, he cant function in the kingdom.

John 3:3
   Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

A Christian has what all these OT folks never had. In Christ I am greater than they all!! . John was the greatest of all prophets because he had the opportunity to witness the messiah, But A christian is greater than john.

Luke 7:28
   For I say unto you, Among those that are born of women there is not a greater prophet than John the Baptist: but he that is least in the kingdom of God is greater than he.

We have become like Christ because of the life now that is now in us and the nature of God. Eternal life is not about living forever but rather, its a quality of life.That is what a Christian is born with.

1 John 5:11-12
   And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

This is in summary what it means to be born again. The righteousness and justification in Christ is not thesame as OT times. Theirs is measurable , ours is absolute.

nuclearboy:
Abraham, Moses and Elijah "TURNED" to God and became different from those of their days! It is in this context that they became born again. We believe in the message, Lordship and ways of Jesus. They believed in the message (in fact they WERE the message), Lordship and ways of God.

Jesus = God! Whats the difference then if for illustration's sake, someone claims they were born again? Plus we read of the transfiguration - how Moses and Elijah joined Jesus in Glory before the Apostles! Would you say the glorified are lower than the ordinary or vice-versa? Peter and others stood ordinary before transfigured Moses yet you would have us say the transfigured were lower? So what of Jesus who was in like form with Moses? Was He also lower than the apostles (who you would call mates)?

Then please compare yourself to these Apostles before us all. But then why do I ask seeing as we know you guys have greater revelation knowledge and know that its ignorance that got Stephen killed - which would mean you consider yourself greater.

Then tell us - born again or not, what would you call Moses and Elijah? Dead-Again?

Precisely , Dead again!!

@InesQor

InesQor:
Book of erRORs

Dissappointed at you. you yaab!

aletheia:
^^^Thanks Bro. You took the words right out of my mouth.
It is clear to me that there is a fixation with the term "born again" (occurs only 4 times in the NT), which makes Joagbaje & nuella miss the point that without forgiveness/remission/atonement/justification, there is no born again. They do not understand that Abraham, Moses, Elijah et al were "born again."

Abraham , Moses, Eljah born again? That just gives me an insight where the problem lies. That means cornelius that was a devout man was born again too! Even before peter led him to Christ. Pls don't let people hear it!. I will properly respond to this soon.