₦airaland Forum

nuella2:
@aletheia
forgiveness= remission can you explain. You mean if a love-peddler keep on asking for forgiveness after the days job. Her sins are remitted? What will you tell her to be saved? What is the first thing she needs to do, to receive christ as her lord or just ask for forgiveness for her immediate sin.

John 3:3
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

John 3:5
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. [code][/code]
What do you say about the above scriptures. When the apostles met unsaved people what was the message? To help a criminal is it just to be bail him from police cell each tell he commits crime or to teach him to stop been a criminal.

Conelius was a devout man but he still needed to be born again, why?

Acts 10:2
A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

The man prayed always, i think he must have been praying for forgiveness to, but Peter still had to come and preach christ to him, so he can be born again.

About ROR where did i quote it? pls show me.

Nuella, You are just wonderful!

aletheia:
Thank for responding. I disagree with you that the standard of righteousness has changed. It hasn't changed. No one was made righteous by works in the OT.
Was Abraham justified by works?

We were not dealing with justification but righteousness. The scriptures you quoted was on justification.

Genesis 7:1
   And the Lord said unto Noah, Come thou and all thy house into the ark; for thee have I seen righteous before me in this generation.

He would have gone to hell, not because he was possesed or whatever, but because he was not born again. whatever he did personaly was insignificant. God wouldnot have held it against him for being possesed.It was not his terrible life that made him a sinner. He was born in sin as a nature. so if he wasnt possesed ,he would still go to hell any way but thank God he is saved now. Old things are passed aWAY.

2 Cor. 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.
;

@ Altheia.
It is so amazing how you misunderstand my posts pretend to misundertand them by deliberately twisting the meaning and intetions. I wish I have all the time to respond to your lenghty post.

You should know That standard of righteousness has changed in NT from OT. Men were made righteous by works back then, but now men are made righteous by faith in Christ by being born again.

This sc
[Quote]
Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.[/quote]This scripture of yoursa was prayer of David when he sinned by taking a man's wife and killing the husband. So did God wipe out his transgression? , He was punished for it. He prayed for the sick child, the child still died. Nathan pronounce judgement on david,It came to pass.

2 Samuel 12:10-12
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. [11] Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun. [12] For thou didst it secretly: but I will do this thing before all Israel, and before the sun.



[Quote]
Blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, whose sin is covered. Blessed is the man unto whom the LORD imputeth not iniquity,[/quote]Mark the highlighted part, "cover" God covered their sins . Thats the primary meaning for atonement.
The blood of bulls cannot take sins away ma.

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

Enigma and Image 123
please could you define ;
1. If a non Christian asks God for forgiveness, if he should die in that state of not being born again, what becomes of him?
2.What it is to be born again.

Pastoring is according to calling. either full time or part time. Just like the prophets of old, They had different callings. Some fulltime some part time. We have Major and minor prophets. Same goes for pastoring. It is according to Gods calling. It is not a job ( employment) but rather a responsibilty. Different pastors have their abilities and gifts. Teaching, miracles,healing, evengelistic, and prophetic. I can say we have some miinor pastors and major pastors in a sense. The level of calling determine , the devotion, either its full time or part time. A man does not pastor because he is unemployed. He wont survive it . You dont call yourself.

Hebrews 5:4
And no man taketh this honour unto himself, but he that is called of God, as was Aaron.
Ministry is a responsibilty that requires focus. It is not Every pastor that is a teacher . but to be a teacher sound very light . As though you just read up and teach , whats the big deal. There is big deal. He has to pray and intercede for the sheep.Take the early church for example. the early apostles needed so much focus that even when mumuring occoured , they had to raise other people. so that they can focus.

Acts 6:2-4
Then the twelve called the multitude of the disciples unto them, and said, It is not reason that we should leave the word of God, and serve tables. [3] Wherefore, brethren, look ye out among you seven men of honest report, full of the Holy Ghost and wisdom, whom we may appoint over this business. [4] But we will give ourselves continually to prayer, and to the ministry of the word.

Some needs to pray and fasting for several days , and will require isolation . Who will employ that kind of person.

It takes sacrifice for people to function in ministry. The joy of a minister is in the results in the lives of his members. Many pastors have faced being ostracised and heavy persecution. From fathers , mothers. who will call them wasters because they abandoned family dreams to enter ministry. it is only a call that could make a man do that. Some have to resign their jobs face hunger for a period, just to answer God. Nobody sees the periodd of the pastor' s challenge. But over the years , when the result is showing and members are blessing them, attacks will come. If its a business as some of you claim why dont you start one? and see how sweeet the business is. When you say "Shout alleluyah" someone will say ,"take 1 million!" A pastor may receive gifts from people who's lives he has touched but his heart is not on those things. A pastor fasts often. He has to put himself right spiritualy. If not he will stop having result.
Many pastors would not be permitted of God to work. Like the priest and levites. But God allow some to do other things. It is not a law but it depends on callings. The fact that Paul did some business does not mean it was a law. Paul didnt marry either. does it mean it is wrong for pastors to marry?

Matthew 19:12
For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.
Primarily It is Ordained of God for ministers to focus on ministry and be suported of the congregation.

1 Cor. 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

So lets stop talking against what we dont know.Ebenezer Obey once sang a song " Eda Omo Araye" someone will allways
If a pastor works full time "omo araiye" will complain. If a pastor does businesss to generate money for ministry Omo araiye will still complain of "Pastor's business empire"

Its a prank. Soul cant be sould ignorantly

I explained this yesterday , there was provision for forgiveness under OT. which ran till Jesus died. Now that Jesus is highpriest . The Jews can no longer recieve forgiveness by levitical system now.

Jesus did not live in riches on earth. He was rich but he became poor on earth for our sake. Even in his poverty he fed 5,000 rode donkey . He gave money to the poor, he wore seemles clothe that soldiers have to fight for to posess. In his poverty he was responsible for 12 hefty deciples with their family welfare . Yet he was poor, If that was poverty of Jesus , how much will his riches be. And yet he tasted this so called poverty so that I will be Poor no more. Then will I be justified to live in poverty. The bible was not talking about spiritual riches. Was Jesus spiritualy poor? If Jesus was spiritualy poor then I will agree that the riches is only spiritual riches.but if Jesus poverty was physicall , then the riches ought to be material also.

Whatever it is must be a prank! And cowardice . When the real devil shows up . I don't think he will operate by schemes. Men have to wilfuly obey him . He cannot get Men's souls by pranks! It takes a spiritual willful decision to get a man's soul. We have sign up for several things online ignorantly without reading the long long terms of Agreement. Without consideration of the consequences. I agree that we fall sometimes to such and reap such consequences such as invasion of our privacy etc. Such legal things can hold a man legally , but To sell out a man's soul , it can't be by mistake. Except in the Hollywood fantacy .

Enigma:
Joagbaje/CEC/Word of Faith disease laid bare (by a former WoFer, Rhema graduate who studied under Hagin at that!):

From http://faithpreacher..com/

The innocent WoFers are a confused and ignorant lot while the leaders are despicable heretics.

This Joagbaje who is denying "atonement" will soon turn around and tell you there is "healing in the atonement" using Isaiah 53. It is what aletheia calls the ;DHumpty Dumpty syndrome: a word is what I want it to mean; if this means I want to use the word white to describe what everyone else can see is black then white it is; I could of course be inconsistent and next minute, use the word white for another thing that everyone can indeed see is white ---- madness!


Somebody who does not even have English comprehension now becomes a master on how Greek and Hebrew words should be translated! Prideful and arrogant ignoramuses! Katallage ko, katallage ni!

This is what you people do ,When you get into a fix , you come up with abuses and hide inside wofer labelling. You don't even understand simple soteriology ( doctine of salvation) Wofer ko Nasco wafers ni! You think you are the only one that can abuse. I will give you your own now. " Buroda onimu gogoro bi petesi adelabu!"
I challenge you in clear terms to explain salvation. What it means to have eternal life. What do you you understand as the difference between the Christian and umbeliever. Define it and stop bringing up distracting " ye are god" question to derail threads!

davidylan:
1. Jesus Christ was rich. Really?

This particular phrase has been used to excuse the mindless pursuit of wealth by those in the WoF movement. I do believe that God does give wealth to some of His children He specially selects but He never promised us "riches" as we define it today. Constructive critics welcome.

"Jesus Christ was rich " is it not in your bible.

2 Cor. 8:9
For ye know the grace of our Lord Jesus Christ, that, though he was rich, yet for your sakes he became poor, that ye through his poverty might be rich.
Prosperity ; Dominion over lack is a majpr part of the package in Christ.

Acts 26:18
To open their eyes, and to turn them from darkness to light, and from the power of Satan unto God, that they may receive forgiveness of sins, and inheritance among them which are sanctified by faith that is in me.

Gods wants us to be prosperous and have dominion ove wealth , not for money to have dominion over us.
1 Tim. 6:17
Charge them that are rich in this world, that they be not highminded, nor trust in uncertain riches, but in the living God, who giveth us richly all things to enjoy;

We are seed of Abraham, The blessing of Abraham is to have all things.

A man may have done a crazy thing , that doesn't mean he is a crazy man. A Sinner is a man under the dominion of sin. When a man gets born again, he ceases to be a sinner. Even if he makes a mistake, he is still a child of God. Because salvation is not by works of righteousness we have done. There is no good thing that a sinner/ umbeleiver would do that is justified by God.No work of righteousness can make him a saint. Because he was born in sin . His good work is still dirty before God. Thesame way there is no mistake that a Christian will make that will make him a sinner. Because he is born into righteousness. Sin is. Nature and not conducts , righteousness is also a nature. A good behaviour will not make the sinner a Christian and a wrong action will not make the Christian a sinner.
Jesus came to give us eternal life. As we recieve this life , the old nature of sin is taken away. Forgiveness is one of the things in the package . The more a Christian grows in the knowledge of Gods word , the less mistake he makes. God ants us to grow beyond the level of sinning and confessing and repentance everyday.
Heb 6:1
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works

Image123:
I see questions aren't getting answered or a getting answered with a kain.
Joagbaje, are you a leader in isrel, and don't know these things? Of what use is salvation, why did Jesus need to come. Those are your questions. I'll help you.
Remember we're talking of Jesus who is seperate from sinners. Since you say only christians are sinners, I'll assume Christ is seperate from christians. Or this also doesn't apply to christians.
I see you've quoted some of the books you earlier dismissed, so permit my quoting. John 1v29 the Lamb of God which taketh away the sin of the world.
Matthew 1v21 for he shall save his people from their sins.
That's what Jesus came to do, to save from sin, take away sin, not just forgive. Forgive is part but it's more than that. He came to take away. Daniel 9v24

I never said Christians are sinners. A Christian has recieved nature of righteousness. The men of the world are sinners that we need to bring to life in Christ. A Christian may make him a sinner. Paul would not call Christian sinner. Its only James that use such language.

The scriptures you quoted are still saying what Iam saying. you read my last post in a hurry. The sins of the world were only taken away when Jesus died and not at john's baptism.
Hebrews 9:16-17
   For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

Enigma:
In addition to nuclearboy and Inesqoor's recent posts:
How did David obtain God's forgiveness after the Bathsheba affair (pun intended)?
What about Psalm 51? What does/did that do?

The bible was clear on the fact that there was forgiveness under the OT. But it all ended when Jesus died and ended the OT system of worship. What Jesus taught on forgiveness was still part of OT. The NT didnt come to effect until the death of Jesus.
Hebrews 9:16-17
For where a testament is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator. [17] For a testament is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.

For a man to function in this new package, The first step is to be born again.He recieves remission from the old nature of sin. Now he has acess into the grace. if a man has not recieved the life in Christ. he cant access the forgiveness in Christ. Different religion asks God for forgivess. are they saved?

aletheia:
^^^
Implications of Joagbaje's & fyneguy's postulates:
1. No one could be saved.

2. As Christians, we have licence to sin, ask forgiveness, sin some more, ask for forgiveness, sin. . .

If you had read my earlier post without biase, I had said that no child of God love to sin. but if they should sin, there is provision for forgiveness. I didnt write the bible.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Moreover, I believe Joagbaje is unsure about what the atonement of Jesus means:
If reconciliation is not for Christians, then who are those brought into union with God through reconciliation?

I am nott unsure, I only responded to Enigma's question asking what will reconciliation do for Christians? I said reconciliation is not for Christians but for man. He reconciled man back to God. he is not reconciling Christians. They are reconciled already.I said he should have asked rather what "did" reconciliation do and not what "will",

[quote][/quote]babalawos believes theres God , Muslims believes theres God.So if babalawo say ,God forgive me for people i killed, he is ok with God? There are withches and juju men that claim they use there powers to help people and not to do evil. They even pray to God of heaven and ask for forgiveness .By your teaching you have made the blood of Christ none effect. There is no need for salvation.

James 2:19
Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.

I have not read all the posts , but heres is my contribution. Having a Mega church is a sign of grace and ability. Biblically , God use people according to their abilities. The size of a man's crowd is a sign of ability and should be commended rather than condemned. If your ability is fifty , no matter how much you try, you cant have more than fifty. Until grace and ability increase. God is a God of increase. He commeds the man that increased his talents.
God gives leadership to people according to their abilities. Moses gave leadrship to people bases on their abilities

Exodus 18:25
And Moses chose able men out of all Israel, and made them heads over the people, rulers of thousands, rulers of hundreds, rulers of fifties, and rulers of tens.

Matthew 25:15
And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.

.It is based on the grace of leadership. To condemn a church or a man of God for having large crowd is unreasonable. How can a man condemn what God has approved?

Thats the problem we are facing.Lets leave this semantics.
@Enigma, If you believe an unsaved man has access to commit sin and recieve forgiveness, why does he need to get born again? Why does he need christ?.

Hell was not part of the six days creation. Hell was created many many years before the creation of Adam.

You are not correct. The message of CEC is about the divine life of God in the christian . The new creation. Your dominion over sin , sickness, death, poverty and over the devil. This is based on the teachings of Christ,Paul, and john. How many tapes of CEC have you listened to to come to your conclusion.

The Christian race is not how to enter heaven. The Christian race is toward perfection (maturity) We are not trying to make heaven. We have heavenly life already. If your message is teching Christians how to make heaven , youve missed it already. Gods expectation is for us to mature and grow into the fulness of Christ and Fullness of God.

Ephes. 4:13-15
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: [14] That we henceforth be no more children, tossed to and fro, and carried about with every wind of doctrine, by the sleight of men, and cunning craftiness, whereby they lie in wait to deceive; [15] But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

@Enigma

Enigma:
So now you agree at least that "remission of sinS" = "forgiveness of SinS"! Hallelujah!!!!!!!

I didnt say remssion is forgiveness, But the word is used interchangably,. When a word has more than one meaning, It takes understanding of the context to really apply it appropriately. I gave an example of sexual sin yesterday. Let me site anothet greek word for Salvation ; "Soteria" it means safety, healing or health, protection, Deliverance etc . But that doesnt mean if someone get healing , he is saved also. they are two different experiences but the same greek word. The true meaning depends on the contex and the revelation knowledge of truth that we know. So forgiveness could be one of the meaning of the word for remission but forgiveness and remission are different. Thesame way the atonement. The primary meaning for atonement is to "cover" but the usage of atonement by king james in NT was not apppropriate. it was not used to denote what old testament use suggest. The appropriate word ought to have been reconciliation which some translations used instead of atonement.

Yes they were

Enigma:
@Joagbaje

I don't know how long it will take you to deal with the last set of questions but to save time could you also address the following:

How many times was the word rendered as "remission" (KJV) used in the New Testament and could you please point to the verse that talks of remission of sin as opposed to remission of sin[b][size=14pt]s[/size][/b]?

"Sin" ,"Sins" were used interchangably some times. Translators were not perfect people. "Spirit" with capital "S" refers to Holyghost while spirit with small "s" refers to the spirit of man or other spirits.but small "s" has been used for Holyghost mistakingly by translator's error. So I dont want us to get caught up in issues that are not too important. Lets look at things from point of truth.

Sin (Nature)

Romans 6:22-23
But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life. [23] For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.

Sins as (Transgressions)

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Enigma:
OK

You say Jesus' sacrifice paid "price for sin of the world"?

1. Did Jesus sacrifice achieve propitiation?

2. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve remission of sin?

3. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve forgiveness for sin?

4. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve atonement?

1. Did Jesus sacrifice achieve propitiation? Yes
2. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve remission of sin? Yes, This manifest by being born again and not by asking for       forgivenes
3. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve forgiveness for sin?  It  created room for Christians to recieve forgiveness
4. Did Jesus' sacrifice achieve atonement? It depends on your reference . beyond atonement , His blood didnt cover sin but washed it away. if you are refering to reconciliation , Yes, he achieved  reconciliation.

Enigma:
OK, I will ask a few questions together to keep things brief.

1. What did Jesus' sacrifice do?

2. What is propitiation and what did it do?

3. What is remission and what did it do?

4. What is forgiveness of sin and what does/did it do?

1.Jesus's sacrifice paid price for sin of the world
2.propitiation is appeasing God's mercy
3.Remission is absolute wiping away of sin as though they never existed.
4.forgiveness is pardon for sin

nuclearboy:
Peace please, brothers!

This thread has digressed too far from what it was intended for and is becoming "word" wars!. Could we please leave the "definitions" and trying to show the WOFer side as being vacuous? Its obvious Joagbaje just chose wrong words and we are all at one time or other, guilty of the sin of pride so its not easy backing down. This moreso considering he is, as it were, "the" bastion and last line of defence of WOFers. And in sincerity, he does have a point; just is getting it across wrongly!

Might seem worth it to beat him down and teach a lesson but not exactly profitable. Plus the guy will not back down and we know it!

I wil back down if I am wrong and its clearly proven by the word. There is no pride involved i didnt write the bible.

@ enigma
Reconciliation brought us into union with God.
it wont be fair if all you do is try to push me into some corners on certain things that may not have absolute definitions in the bible.  I dont want to get into unnecessary semantics. It would be missunderstood, greek and hebrew words have several meanings , it depends on the context we are looking at them. There is different between fornication and adultery according to truth but there are times "fornication " has been used in to denote all sexual impurities in the bible.if you begin to pick on such without judging according to the whole body of truth, you may killl the truth.

Enigma:
OK

What does reconciliation do for a Christian?

Reconciliatin is not for Christians. It was for man.I guess your question ought to have been what did reconciliation do? and not what does reconciliation do?.

@ Image123

If a man that is not bor again could ask for forgiveness and be cleansed. Of what use is salvation? or being born again. Of what use is the blood of Christ?. Why did Jesus need to come. Man could have just continually ask for forgiveness each time he does something wrong. Pls explain to me

@ Enigma

Enigma:
@Joagbaje

Explain the word "atonement" in the passage below:

Romans 5:10-11
For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life. [11] And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

litererarily it means reconciliation, the right english word to have been used is "reconciliation" It is not thesame as the atonement in the OT.

katallage, kat-al-lag-ay'; from Greek 2644 (katallasso); exchange (figurative adjustment), i.e. restoration to (the divine) favor :- atonement, reconciliation (-ing).


2 Cor. 5:18-19
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled (KATALASO) us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of[b] reconciliation([/b]Katallage); [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling( Katallaso) the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (Katallage)

So the english word used "atonement" is not used in the sense of the OT atonement. Which has to do with the sacrifice of blood shedding.But the use here is rather talking about the result and not the process itself.

If I say" God has given me the ministry of atonement", I will definately be termed heretic, but if we have to go by the use of that word "Katallage" for atonement instead of reconciliation, thats what it will suggest in 2cor 5
2 Cor. 5:18-19
And all things are of God, who hath reconciled (KATALASO) us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of[b] reconciliation([/b]Katallage); [19] To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling( Katallaso) the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation. (Katallage)

Image123:
Joagbaje,
You've repeatedly said the only person that can sin is a christian. Infact, you've said an unbeliever cannot be forgiven. Please the publican in Luke 18v13 who said 'God be merciful unto me a sinner' and went home justified, was he a christian? The woman Jesus told to go and sin NO MORE, was she a christian?
John 8v34 says whosoever commits sin is the servant of sin. Are christians servants of sin?

The publican in luke funtioned under the OT. There was provision for forgiveness under the law. But now that the ultimate price for Sin had been paid by Christ's death, the OT confession does not work again. their worship and contact with God was in the flesh. But now we contact God through our spirit.
John 4:23-24
   But the hour cometh, and now is, when the true worshippers shall worship the Father in spirit and in truth: for the Father seeketh such to worship him. [24] God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

So, if a man that is unsaved is asking God for forgiveness, It does not make a difference. He's going to hell anyway, because what makes him a sinner is not the lie he lied or the abuses he rendered, he  is still a sinnner if he had never done anything bad. The only prayer that God will want to hear is for him to accept the lordship of Christ and receie eternal life. The sin nature is taken away by the new birth and he becomes the righteousness of God.
If he commits a sin ,he could ask God for forgiveness.

John 8:34
Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin.

This does not relate to a christian.