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Christianity Etc › Re: Does A Pastor Trully Need A Private Jet ? by Joagbaje(m): 10:31am On May 19, 2010

Was there a Jet in Jesus's day? You cant compare the ministry of Jesus with today 100% .Jesus functioned in a smaller world and reached only few people. But now the story is different .If jesus were alive in our time, will he still be trecking ? Will he treck with only sandals from lagos to kaduna? Will he treck to America or japan. He used the technology of his day, didnt he chatter boat for himself and his crew members? Did he go with regular public boat? .

Mark 3:9
And he spake to his disciples, that a small ship should wait on him ,

Why was he going about with crew members, when they should have been productive in the society, they were jobless and eating people's money! FLEECING THE SHEEP!

Christianity Etc › Re: Are Women To Submit To Their Husbands In Everything? by Joagbaje(m): 10:03am On May 19, 2010

Some women like to have control and lead the home, this is what gave birth to some of these scriptures
The issue of submission of the woman has to do with headship in the home. God relates to us through leadership. That doesnt make the woman a slave. A soldier must recognise leadership in the army and obey the instructions of his leader , that doesnt make him less a soldier than his leader .

The woman submits to the man according to the word but that doesnt make her inferior to a man in the society. But as far as her husband is concerned, she ought to play the supportive role.

1 Cor. 11:9
Neither was the man created for the woman; but the woman for the man.

Christianity Etc › Re: Does A Pastor Trully Need A Private Jet ? by Joagbaje(m): 9:16am On May 19, 2010

Matthew 7:1
Judge not, that ye be not judged.

It is not anybody's business what a man ride. You didnt call him, You dont know his assignment or calling. Some ministers travell a lot by the reason of their calling and some had to travell with so many crew member. commercial flights have delayed some of them and many atimes they have to chartter a jet, If such will deem it right to buy one for the ministry because of the crowd that work with them, and also having control of their time, i dont think its anybody's bussiness. Many ministers in the world recieve their jets as gifts and as an answer to their hindrances. Archbishop Idahosa one once offered a jet as gift but he declined saying he may not be able to maintain it. by the way is private jet made for animals? is it not for human beings? What is in it that God cant give a man should the need for it arise? If a man has a wrong motive for acquiring one, it is between him and God.

Christianity Etc › Re: Celestial Church of Christ: Your Experience And Opinion by Joagbaje(m): 8:54am On May 19, 2010

Super T:
What do you expect, The founder have one said serpent gave him power. Can serpent be means of empower the savant of God?

The founder didnt say serpent gave him power.He said he heard a serpent say " Luli" . Did serpent give moses power too? It is rather symbolic

John 3:14
And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

Christianity Etc › Re: Atm And Credit Card For Offerings. by Joagbaje(m): 8:37am On May 19, 2010

Where have you been? there are ATMs in several churches in Nigeria already. It is for people convinences. I will rather use ATM in church than carry bulk money in the pocket. Why should church be behind in technology. The world is changing fast my friend. We are entering a cashless society soon in the global village.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Truth About Christ Embassy Healing School by Joagbaje(m): 4:28pm On May 17, 2010

PLS LETS ALLOW THIS THREAD TO REST, WE CANT DENY THAT SIR JOHN WAS REALLY IN THE HEALING SCHOOL, I BELIEVE HE MUST HAVE COME TO AN EXTREMELY WRONG CONCLUSSION. HE NEEDED ANSWERS RATHER THAN ATTACKS. WE SHOUL ALLOW THIS THREAD REST BECAUSE OF SOULS OF MEN.

Christianity Etc › Re: Fathering Of Jesus. by Joagbaje(m): 5:04pm On May 07, 2010

People do say that God is our father generaly, But you have to be born of him to be his Child. that is to be born again. That is when he could become a Child of God. He is not the father of everybody.

Ephes. 2:12
That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:

2 Cor. 6:18
And will be a Father unto you, and ye shall be my sons and daughters, saith the Lord Almighty.

Christianity Etc › Re: A Born Again Christian Is Not A Sinner (even If He Sins) by Joagbaje(m): 3:22pm On May 07, 2010

@Nuclear BOY

nuclearboy:
Atimes I get the impression we spend more time arguing with ourselves rather than passing the Gospel's message across as is duty. I more than most am guilty of this and so I understand you, Romeo4real. But Gunnaz is of a different order than such as pastor Agbaje. His post clearly states he agrees there is an issue there so there's no point pushing against him. Now if it were[b] Agbaje[/b], you'd have heard that there is some funny explanation and all of us have not even grown teeth at all ( see mine ) and until[b] pastor chris[/b] agrees, the Bible doesn't know what it is saying. Gunnaz used words that ONLY Christians would understand and IMO, that was the only problem since not only christians read NairaLand posts.

Humble yourself to admit it where you are wrong. There is no issue about this. Must you vomit guile in your posts? Leave joagbaje out, leave Chris oyakhilome out. open your bible and discuss topics , not names and personalities. But if youre so interested about CEC, Its not a bad idea to take a walk to the closest branch, attend the foundation school ,and you will have sound understanding of doctrine of salvation.

Righteousness is the nature of the Christian , Sin is the nature of the unsaved. No matter how much you clothe a monkey to look like man, he is still monkey in nature. No matter how good a natural man behaves, he is still a sinner. No matter the offence of a Christian , It has not changed his nature from righteousness. He didnt earn it by works or good deed. He cant lose it by works or bad deed, A man can not be born again two times, It is babies that struggles with sin. Sin has no dominion over us.

If a baby crawls on four , or poohs on himself , he is still a human being, one day he will grow out of it.
Paul never calls a Christian sinner, even when they stole!

Ephes. 4:28
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

I am not aware Paul called a christian SINNER. Only JAMES will use such language.

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 3:42pm On May 06, 2010

@Altheia,

aletheia:
@Joagbaje:
Thank you for being humble enough to concede where you are wrong. And all the glory must be to the Lord. But have you considered that you might have been mistaken in other regards? Neither Enigma, nuclearboy or myself have asserted that the OT saints were saved by the blood of bulls. Everyone that has been saved has been saved by the blood of Jesus Christ. It is by faith, looking on to Jesus. Which is why Jesus said this:The incident alluded to is described here:So in essence what Jesus is saying is this: Just as those dying in the wilderness looked to the bronze serpent and lived, even so those dying, looking to Jesus shall live.
This applies to all, both OT and NT. You have to understand that God's purpose preceded Adam.The Lamb of God needed to offer just one perfect sacrifice not several. And at just the right time in God's plan, it happened.Do you see that phrase: unto them that look for him? Do these not include the OT saints as well? Did Jesus himself not say this of Abraham?All the scriptures from Genesis to Revelation, bear the testimony of Jesus:When Jesus said this, the NT hadn't been written. And again in this place:
The advent and saving work of Jesus is foreshadowed in the scriptures beginning from:To Abraham:^^^Other examples abound.

Now as to being born again. Let us look at the scriptures:
1. John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.
2. Luke 13:28 There shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth, when ye shall see Abraham, and Isaac, and Jacob, and all the prophets, in the kingdom of God, and you yourselves thrust out.
3. How did Abraham, Isaac, Jacob and all the prophets get into the kingdom of God?
Could it be that what you understand as born again is different from what it actually means, given that you say OT saints are not born again, yet Jesus says unless a man is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God and we see Abraham et al (not born again according to you), in the kingdom of God.

What we often lose sight of is that Jesus operated in a Jewish milieu and hence his expressions would have been particularly Jewish making use of parallelisms. And so in he repeats himself, saying essentially the same thing:

As I said earlier, if you ae able to prove me wrong scripturally, I will admit it. But I am very certain I am right here but its not by claiming right, We should discuss it scripturally. as long as its not degenerating into name calling and abuses. I going through your post again so as not to miss anything out.

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 3:04pm On May 06, 2010

Enigma:
You are in denial; you just do not want to accept that the Bible can so clearly contradict your Rhapsody of erRors and your WoF theology! I pray that some day you will be detoxed from the RoR poison.

See, your own post contradicts you. Nathan told David that the child would die and that he would suffer other consequences BUT that the Lord had put away David's sin ---- even you quoted that passage. Lawrence Agada of your church who stole millions for Oyakhilome your pastor is forgiven I'm sure you would say since he is "born again" but did he not suffer consequences of his theft e.g. losing his job?

This is sheer nonsense! You are the one arguing that "atonement" of OT saints was done through the blood of animals and that they were justified by works. Our explanation of Christian doctrine to you is that there is only ONE atonement for everyone, whether Old Testament or New Testament saint -- that atonement for everyone is the one wrought through the blood of Jesus Christ. That atonement is the remission of the sin of everyone whether Old Testament or New Testament saint. That atonement is the propitiation, the forgiveness and the salvation of everyone whether Old Testament or New Testament saint.

I see you dodged the questions I posed on Psalm 51

David was told that the Lord had put his sin away and following above did David receive remission or not. Think carefully because when you say that David did not receive forgiveness, then you are telling us that he has gone to eternal damnation!

Did David have the Holy Spirit or not?

Did David receive the restoration of the joy of salvation or not and was God no longer the God of his salvation. Again think carefully because you might just be condemning David to eternal damnation.

Enigma,
must you fight dirty? leave joagbaje out, leave Oyaks , opaks, Wofer, Wafer an all name callings. deal with me as a person, deal with topic and not personalities. It is childish of you and unintellectual. Do you have other motives than the discussions?

Christianity Etc › Re: The Lessons Of Giving And The Hypocrites! by Joagbaje(m): 11:44am On May 06, 2010

There different kinds of giving in Gods kingdom. Just to mention few.
1.Giving to God (in God's house)
2.Giving to the poor
3.Giving for Projects in Gods house
4. Giving to the man of God
5.Giving to your parents.

Which of these is lacking scriptural backing. Which of them do you have problem with.? So whats all these noise about.? This is a spiritual problem if I may say. And those who fight giving in God's house probably dont know the spirit behind it. For an example to the advocates for the poor masses , If their pastor should come up with a project to reach out to poor people as many churches do, they will still not give. They will call him thief. So their advocacy is not really about the poor but making excuse for their personal greed and covetousness to justify lack of financial commitment. So its not about the poor.

John 12:6
This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

The best way to help the poor is still by doing it through the church organised structure and outreaches.The early church sold their properties and still brought the money to the church for disbussment.

Acts 4:34-35
Neither was there any among them that lacked: for as many as were possessors of lands or houses sold them, and brought the prices of the things that were sold, [35] And laid them down at the apostles' feet: and distribution was made unto every man according as he had need.

Pauls did thesame by mobilising the church to give for the specieal relief project every sunday service.If These NL attackers of the church were there , what would they do?

So when you now have people here attacking the church giving and the office of the pastor BY DISCREDITING EVERY PASTOR KNOWN . Here comes the golden question. WHO ARE THEY REALLY WORKING FOR?

Christianity Etc › Re: The Lessons Of Giving And The Hypocrites! by Joagbaje(m): 10:40am On May 06, 2010

God does not curse us for not tithing, There is enough curse of darkness in the world. But a man that walks in truth is shielded from such. tithing is a form of God's financial security for us. The curse is a curse of sweat and waste. Men laboiur. But in Christ ,we have come into rest. The will of God does not come to pass automatically. There are steps of faith we must take ,to bring God's will to pass.

Many experience profit and losses. " the devourer" Accident, deaths, 419,fire outbreak. All manner of waste and losses. For The tither ,God rebukes such waste.

Malachi 3:11
And I will rebuke the devourer for your sakes, and he shall not destroy the fruits of your ground; neither shall your vine cast her fruit before the time in the field, saith the Lord of hosts.

Your tithing is your honor for God as your source.You prove your love for God by doing his word. You cant say you are under grace and work against the principles of God.

John 14:15
If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Christianity Etc › Re: Love And Submission? by Joagbaje(m): 10:00am On May 06, 2010

The scripture here has to do with questioning. Women were relegated to the background under the Old testament , but in Christ, the middle wall has been broken.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Since they were not allowed in time past to participate in worship,their introduction into public worship is strange to them now, They had many questions to ask, and by this , they were interupting the order of the services. Paul had to put a check on that by telling them to be silent and ask their husbands questions at home.

1 Cor. 14:35
And if they will learn any thing, let them ask their husbands at home: for it is a shame for women to speak in the church.

They were not forbidden to speak. You have to compare this to other scriptures. Women have equal rights and priviledges in Christ. . There is no male or female anoiting.

WOMEN TEACH.
A notable woman was Priscilla who teach and pastor with her husband Aqcuilla

Acts 18:26
And he (Apollos) began to speak boldly in the synagogue: whom when Aquila and Priscilla had heard, they took him unto them, and expounded unto him the way of God more perfectly.

1 Cor. 16:19
The churches of Asia salute you. Aquila and Priscilla salute you much in the Lord, with the church that is in their house.

WOMEN PROPHESIED PUBLICLY

1 Cor. 11:5
But every woman that prayeth or prophesieth( Openly in church) with her head uncovered dishonoureth her head:.

So They do participate in service. The Corinthian church was the only one that had the challenge of women disturbance.

Christianity Etc › Re: Inside The Healing School Of Christ Embassy by Joagbaje(m): 7:27am On May 06, 2010

babaearly:
men this is really funny. I would like to know where in the bible "anointing blows like a wind"

John 20:22
And when he had said this, he breathed on them, and saith unto them, Receive ye the Holy Ghost:

Christianity Etc › Re: Love And Submission? by Joagbaje(m): 5:16pm On May 05, 2010

Deep sight

Deep Sight:
Mr. Agbaje -

How can you assert that the Bible is not a se.xist document that advocates gender-apartheid against women? It is.

For starters, can you tell me why on Earth St. Paul insists that women must not speak when men are speaking?

1. Are the women brainless?

2. What if it is a woman in the gathering that actually has the anointing? What if the anointing is on a woman in the group, and not on the men?

Abi women do not receive anointing?

Tell me.

You should have pasted the scripture here. Because the bible didnt say that. It talks about woman not usurping authority over "the Man" which makes reference to the husband.

Christianity Etc › Re: A Born Again Christian Is Not A Sinner (even If He Sins) by Joagbaje(m): 4:33pm On May 05, 2010

Enigma:
Oyakhilome is a heretic, in fact he is Nigeria's heretic-in-chief! I only pity the ignorant mugs he is leading away from the teachings of Christ and into satanic doctrines and who he is fleecing through "tithes" and offerings at the same time!

Rather he is one of the best bible teachers the world has ever known. You are very wrong. Its only ingnorant babies here on nairaland that have such opinion.Theology is not spirituality. Enigma , I really dont know if youre born again ,but just incase you are, Have you ever done something wrong?. Yes! i believe. So Just get ready for hell Man!!

Forgiveness is supposed to be part of elementary teachings in Christ. It is religious people that find it hard to accept forgiveness from God, and also find it hard to forgivve themselves and others.

Christianity Etc › Re: Strangers Or Allies? Paul’s Knowledge Of Jesus by Joagbaje(m): 3:42pm On May 05, 2010

If there is anything i will first recommend for anygrowing Christian, It is to get acquainted with Pauline epistle. The stories about where Jesus was born ,who was is mother are non essential. Jesus came for us to have life. He taught Paul himself what Paul needed to know. The death and resurrection of Christ is the big thing and not his birth or childhood.

Galatians 1:11-12
But I certify you, brethren, that the gospel which was preached of me is not after man. [12] For I neither received it of man, neither was I taught it, but by the revelation of Jesus Christ.

Galatians 1:15-17
But when it pleased God, who separated me from my mother's womb, and called me by his grace, [16] To reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the heathen; immediately I conferred not with flesh and blood: [17] Neither went I up to Jerusalem to them which were apostles before me; but I went into Arabia, and returned again unto Damascus.

Im sure what Jesus taught him was not how the angel did his hand when he talked to Mary.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Lessons Of Giving And The Hypocrites! by Joagbaje(m): 3:21pm On May 05, 2010

nuclearboy:
Tonye:

When you say "the reason you are not doing well is because you are ROBBING GOD", you are using trickery, fear, emotional blackmail and manipulation.

Jesus too must be using trickery when he said:

Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Firstly, the "portion" of tithes in the OT that was meant for the levite was meant for them because the levite had no possessions or inheritance. Which of your MOGs today don't have possessions?

When God calls a man and h has to resign his job, abandon all for sake of ministry, what are you talking? Was Kumuyi not a great lecturer. What about Adeboye? . Are they in ministry because they were jobless?
Likewise most ministers. The tithe is God's primary way of support for the workers in ministry those days.
See what Paul has to say.

1 Cor. 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

Secondly, it was a "portion" not all the tithes! Thirdly, we all are levites today being part of a royal priesthood. Fourthly, Christ defines where He lives (i.e. His House) when He said "when you do for the least of these, you do for me" in relation to clothing, feeding and sheltering the poor. Let me rewrite that for you in clear english -

Jesus (OT) said "Bring ye all the tithes into my House (where I live is my house)"

Jesus (NT) said "I live with the poor because when you feed them, it is me you feed. When you clothe them, it is me you clothe etc"

Deut 26 agrees with this and adds levites ONLY because they have no possessions. So when you say Jesus said "not to neglect tithes", YES, He said not to neglect the poor, needy, widow, stranger and the "priest" WHO IS IN NEED, not a billionaire.

You are mumbling scriptures together to say what it didnt say.Your idea of poor priests is unscriptural. The priest is the one who confers the blessing opn the people because of the anointing. The priest is anointed to bless. It is the people who are blessed.So you dont just give to a man of God to meet his need , You give to him because he is anointed and the anointing will cause you to have prophet's reward.

Numbers 18:8
And the Lord spake unto Aaron, Behold, I also have given thee the charge of mine heave offerings of all the hallowed things of the children of Israel; unto thee have I given them[b] by reason of the anointing[/b], and to thy sons, by an ordinance for ever.

Acts 20:35
I have shewed you all things, how that so labouring ye ought to support the weak, and to remember the words of the Lord Jesus, how he said, It is more blessed to give than to receive.

Tonye-T, you said "Give and it shall be given to you, full measure, pressed down, shaken together and running over". Yes, but this works both ways for the mature - give pain and you will be given your full complement of pain in return. Give deceit and get same. Give joy and friendship and see your harvest of same.

If you beleive this , then why is it hard for you to give the naira and dollar. Jesus should have stopped that old widow. She should rather have been helped and given to. isnt it? But no, a poor man must learn to give, thats what will change his story arround.

Mark 12:41-42
And Jesus sat over against the treasury, and beheld how the people cast money into the treasury: and many that were rich cast in much. [42] And there came a certain poor widow, and she threw in two mites, which make a farthing.

Ofcourse it doesn have to be money a man should sow, we can sow anything. but why would I send perishable tomatoe to church, when the money could have be more useful. money is a universal medium of exchange.

You shold stop all these ideas of , We are all priest in the new testament. They were all priest in the OT too.

Exodus 19:6
And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These are the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel.

But God still anointed some above others. Those who dont understand kingdom structures enter into rebelious trouble.Some tried it with Moses in the name of " We are all anointed"

Numbers 16:3
And they gathered themselves together against Moses and against Aaron, and said unto them, Ye take too much upon you, seeing all the congregation are holy, every one of them, and the Lord is among them: wherefore then lift ye up yourselves above the congregation of the Lord?

You can read up the rest of the story and see and see what the BIG mouth caused them.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Truth About Christ Embassy Healing School by Joagbaje(m): 1:55pm On May 05, 2010

If it is about Miracle or CEC, HER TESTIMONY IS FAKE. ID fake. But if She says "my pastor duped me" Her ID and testimony will be genuine!!!. FAITHLESS GENERATION! . Why is simple miracle hard for doubters to believe, They are called umbelieving believers. They only beleive in bad report and not good report of the gospel.
Some tried to discredit Jesus miracles too. But when Jesus did the BIGGIE and raised Lazarus. their mouth was shut. The next plan was to seek how to kill lazarus.

John 12:10
But the chief priests consulted that they might put Lazarus also to death;

People of all races: american, arabians,germans,europeans in their thousands have testified to the healing they have recieved. Another session in nigeria is arround the corner MAY/JUNE THIS YEAR. praise God.
Where will the devil hide?? Its gonna be DA BOMB!!!.

Christianity Etc › Re: Love And Submission? by Joagbaje(m): 12:39pm On May 05, 2010

@Deepsight,

Deep Sight:
It is no news that the[b] Bible is a one-sided se.xist document which openly advocates Gender Apartheid against women.[/b]

For this reason “the Biblical Perspective” on this matter is not a perspective I will be keen to associate myself with. It is after all[b] this same Bible that states arrogantly that women must never take leadership positions in the Church, and also commands them never to speak when men are speaking.[/b]

I dont know how you come about thiese your biases against the bible. They are not correct. The word of God is not against women,but rather lets us know that the wall of separation is broken down.

Galatians 3:28
There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Christianity Etc › Re: A Born Again Christian Is Not A Sinner (even If He Sins) by Joagbaje(m): 12:13pm On May 05, 2010

babaearly,

babaearly:
Serious, i never knew this thread has gone this far.

I see Joagbaje (CEC) is trying to tell us that A Born Again Christian is not a sinner if he sins. So i ask, does sin have any effect on our Spirituality because thats what been born again is about?

Sin does not have effect on our our spirit. The bible call them works of the FLESH.

Galatians 5:19
Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness,

Sin can be difined as Dominion of the flesh or dominion of the senses. A man That is still battling with sin has not come to full comprehension of his nature . He is a babe or carnal . God wants us to grow into perfection. A carnal christian is born again but he still finds himself yield to fleshly desires. Even though God has made provision to forgive him for any mess, He needs to grow out of that level. by walking in the spirit.

Galatians 5:16
This I say then, Walk in the Spirit, and ye shall not fulfil the lust of the flesh.

But if he finds himself in a mess, he is still the son of God in a mess period!. He should just get out of it.and God wipes him clean. He is not a sinner.

No child of God wants to sin. Every child of God wants to please God.If a Christian falls into a mistake, dont rejoice over him. help restore him rather.If you become too judgemental over a fault of another Christian, one day you will fall into a bigger mess.Your lack of mercy will boomerang.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 11:07am On May 05, 2010

Enigma:
@Joagbaje

First, I appreciate your partial magnanimity. However, your last post still saddens me in that it seems that unless you find evidence that Oyakhilome agrees with something, you will not accept what the Bible itself says on that point. I will deal with other points in that your post another day. For now I want you to look at some things in Psalm 51 as, while you didn't make a "special" on it directly, you dodged it hitherto. I will highlight a few parts and the task for you is consider their implications for

(a) whether David, a pre-NT person could receive forgiveness;
(b) whether he could receive remission of sin
(c) whether he had the Holy Spirit
(d) whether he was saved (for now I will not use "born again"

Quote
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
Think carefully. Try this, and I implore you in good faith: Do NOT look at any CEC/Oyakhilome (even WoF) material (whether tape, RoR etc) when thinking carefully about this Psalm.

[quote][/quote]Many of the things David said here were not applicable to his generation, It was his prayer, But it was not answered because God couldnt take that away.He said some things based on his own level of assumed understanding. But he also uttered prophetic words that are beyond his dispensation.
You raised this issue of David in and earlier post but ,i didnt have time to respond to it then. But here is it :

2 Samuel 12:13
And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

The matter didnt end Here.God forgave David but the sin was still before him.God had pronounced judgement. in verse 10 and 11.

2 Samuel 12:10-11
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. [11] Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

Even though he forgave David in verse 15, The judgement of verse 10 still came to pass. He only spared David life but his judgement remained, because the sin remained before God and it came to pass .

2 Samuel 16:20-23
Then said Absalom to Ahithophel, Give counsel among you what we shall do. [21] And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong. [22] So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and[b] Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel, [/b]

or what do you say about the sin of Moses,

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Moses prayed and prayed, but did God forget the sin?

Deut. 3:25-26
I pray thee, let me go over, and see the good land that is beyond Jordan, that goodly mountain, and Lebanon. [26] But the Lord was wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the Lord said unto me, Let it suffice thee; speak no more unto me of this matter.

But for us , It is a different ball game. He wipes off completely.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I will ask you this. If sin could be taken away by the blood of bulls., Then of what need is redemption . What need was the blood of Christ.?

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 10:57am On May 05, 2010

Enigma:
@Joagbaje

First, I appreciate your partial magnanimity. However, your last post still saddens me in that it seems that unless you find evidence that Oyakhilome agrees with something, you will not accept what the Bible itself says on that point. I will deal with other points in that your post another day. For now I want you to look at some things in Psalm 51 as, while you didn't make a "special" on it directly, you dodged it hitherto. I will highlight a few parts and the task for you is consider their implications for

(a) whether David, a pre-NT person could receive forgiveness;
(b) whether he could receive remission of sin
(c) whether he had the Holy Spirit
(d) whether he was saved (for now I will not use "born again"

[
Quote
1Have mercy upon me, O God, according to thy lovingkindness: according unto the multitude of thy tender mercies blot out my transgressions.

2Wash me throughly from mine iniquity, and cleanse me from my sin.

3For I acknowledge my transgressions: and my sin is ever before me.

4Against thee, thee only, have I sinned, and done this evil in thy sight: that thou mightest be justified when thou speakest, and be clear when thou judgest.

5Behold, I was shapen in iniquity; and in sin did my mother conceive me.

6Behold, thou desirest truth in the inward parts: and in the hidden part thou shalt make me to know wisdom.

7Purge me with hyssop, and I shall be clean: wash me, and I shall be whiter than snow.

8Make me to hear joy and gladness; that the bones which thou hast broken may rejoice.

9Hide thy face from my sins, and blot out all mine iniquities.

10Create in me a clean heart, O God; and renew a right spirit within me.

11Cast me not away from thy presence; and take not thy holy spirit from me.

12Restore unto me the joy of thy salvation; and uphold me with thy free spirit.

13Then will I teach transgressors thy ways; and sinners shall be converted unto thee.

14Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, thou God of my salvation: and my tongue shall sing aloud of thy righteousness.

15O Lord, open thou my lips; and my mouth shall shew forth thy praise.

16For thou desirest not sacrifice; else would I give it: thou delightest not in burnt offering.

17The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit: a broken and a contrite heart, O God, thou wilt not despise.

18Do good in thy good pleasure unto Zion: build thou the walls of Jerusalem.

19Then shalt thou be pleased with the sacrifices of righteousness, with burnt offering and whole burnt offering: then shall they offer bullocks upon thine altar.
Think carefully. Try this, and I implore you in good faith: Do NOT look at any CEC/Oyakhilome (even WoF) material (whether tape, RoR etc) when thinking carefully about this Psalm.
Many of the things David said here were not applicable to his generation, It was his prayer, But it was not answered because God couldnt take that away.He said some things based on his own level of assumed understanding. But he also uttered prophetic words that are beyond his dispensation.
You raised this issue of David in and earlier post but ,i didnt have time to respond to it then. But here is it :

2 Samuel 12:13
And David said unto Nathan, I have sinned against the Lord. And Nathan said unto David, The Lord also hath put away thy sin; thou shalt not die.

The matter didnt end Here.God forgave David but the sin was still before him.God had pronounced judgement. in verse 10 and 11.

2 Samuel 12:10-11
Now therefore the sword shall never depart from thine house; because thou hast despised me, and hast taken the wife of Uriah the Hittite to be thy wife. [11] Thus saith the Lord, Behold, I will raise up evil against thee out of thine own house, and I will take thy wives before thine eyes, and give them unto thy neighbour, and he shall lie with thy wives in the sight of this sun.

Even though he forgave David in verse 15, The judgement of verse 10 still came to pass. He only spared David life but his judgement remained, because the sin remained before God and it came to pass .

2 Samuel 16:20-23
Then said Absalom to Ahithophel, Give counsel among you what we shall do. [21] And Ahithophel said unto Absalom, Go in unto thy father's concubines, which he hath left to keep the house; and all Israel shall hear that thou art abhorred of thy father: then shall the hands of all that are with thee be strong. [22] So they spread Absalom a tent upon the top of the house; and[b] Absalom went in unto his father's concubines in the sight of all Israel, [/b]

or what do you say about the sin of Moses,

Numbers 20:12
And the Lord spake unto Moses and Aaron, Because ye believed me not, to sanctify me in the eyes of the children of Israel, therefore ye shall not bring this congregation into the land which I have given them.

Moses prayed and prayed, but did God forget the sin?

Deut. 3:25-26
I pray thee, let me go over, and see the good land that is beyond Jordan, that goodly mountain, and Lebanon. [26] But the Lord was wroth with me for your sakes, and would not hear me: and the Lord said unto me, Let it suffice thee; speak no more unto me of this matter.

But for us , It is a different ball game. He wipes off completely.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

I will ask you this. If sin could be taken away by the blood of bulls., Then of what need is redemption . What need was the blood of Christ.?

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 9:25pm On May 04, 2010

ENIGMA WAS RIGHT
I will like to state categorically that Enigma and Altheia were both right and correct on the issue of perfection for the OT folks.

Hebrews 12:23
To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

This scriptures answered it all. The fact remained that they were not born again, while they were on earth but , their change took place when Jesus went into the realm of the departed spirits at his death and brought them out and took them to heaven. The scripture I had quoted earlier was not meant for the OT folks, But for the Nations.

Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

I went over the post again and saw the missing link. I also dug up and old message by pastor chris on " the Kindgdom, power and glory" Which also confirmed their pressent position in glory.

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 2:33pm On May 03, 2010

Enigma and Altheia
After going through the posts over, I find there is one or two issues You raised which made a great sense. which I need to check up on. If you are right in those areas , I will gladly admit. and I just need to do a little check up on them. But one fact remain, They were not born again. in The OT. The Issue i need to Check up on is . On what the Blood of jesus Has done for them now.I will respond in details.

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 10:16pm On May 02, 2010

And aren't you the hypocrite? What is the meaning of this:
You called me Eleyin rira! Kai! You nko. Eleyin wankaka bi oku cementary! Oloju four corner bio showglass iya alakara! Elese wogowogo bii wogo train!!!!

You should know by the tone of my writing that I was only having fun. Playing along with nuclear boy. Its not out anger or anything, I was laughing with myself doing it. I expect him to laugh too. The spirit of Christ in me will not allow me to degenerate into such attitude. I will rather quit.

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 10:09pm On May 02, 2010

aletheia:
^^^Go back and read it again. This is turning into an English lesson. BTW it is Aletheia not Altheia.
Let me help you. Sentence by sentence.Do I really need to explain this. Alright, it means from both OT & NT; whether before and after Noah, before and after Moses, before and after John the Baptist, all believers are one Church.
As you no doubt know: God's revelation has been progressive through several dispensations,
Eph 1:10 That in the dispensation of the fulness of times he might gather together in one all things in Christ, both which are in heaven, and which are on earth; even in him:
This clearly echoes Heb 11:40: "the preceding believers cannot be consummated even in glory" i.e. that they without us should not be made perfect.

Isn't the perfection (i.e. the glorification) of the saints in Heaven when Christ returns?.

I didnt disagree that they were saved, But their spirits were not yet recreated. They couldnt contain God nor the holyspirit, Every Jew believe a messiah was coming. But they didnt understand the nature of his coming. They were expecting a warrior like Samson. We and them are part of Gods kingdom, Gods family. But they are not part of Christ's kingdom. This new life started with us.It is a new thing for them to behold. The life is in Jesus, and until a man receives him on the inside he cant partake of that life.

1 John 5:11-12
And this is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in his Son. [12] He that hath the Son hath life; and he that hath not the Son of God hath not life.

Religious activity does not grant a man this life. He has to be born into it. I will elaborately comment on the scriptures you quoted tommorow. I wont forget this. If you prove me wrong . I wont deny it.but you must hear me out without biases.

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 9:44pm On May 02, 2010

aletheia:
@Joagbaje:
I noticed that instead of responding to the scriptures posted on this thread that demolish your assertions, you adopt a three-pronged tactic;
a. Ignore them, (maybe they will go away)
b. Accuse others of insulting you (conveniently ignoring the fact that you have bandied insults here - what hypocrisy!)
c. Arrogant and prideful words designed to bamboozle, obfuscate and confuse.

Youve always been looking for ways to brand me with something. it is as though you are not as interested in the topic of discus as much as joagbaje.

But you know what?
Time and again on various threads on this forum, the thoughts and intentions of your heart have been exposed, and your arguments and lofty opinions destroyed.

If i didnt reply There must be a reason, either events overtook it while I was away , and if someone raise such again ,i respond. Why should I run away when i have the truth. Except of course if there is an abusive post. I stopped responding to you before because you dont show fruits of a christian in all these abuses. Present your case , back it up with facts, and hear out others, because . YOU MAY JUST BE WRONG! Dont forget that. When you feel you score a point, the next thing is name calling and all. You may not agree with me. but must we fight?

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 9:18pm On May 02, 2010

Altheia , shame on your hypocrisy, why highlighting one part and leaving the other. The part I wanted you to see was the last part. " which states that until Christian get to heaven" which part you deliberately and cunningly ignore . FAT SHAME.!

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 9:14pm On May 02, 2010

nuclearboy:
Yep, went to school - not 419 schooling though, which is why I have a job, a career, a business which produces something and adds to the economy. Where is the benefit of your CEC ~~419~~ "so called theology" studies (obviously all you have) - when you have to resort to lying, begging, cajoling people to bring the fruits of their own labor (including theft and fraud) so you can have a life. Dude, don't let me start on you and yaps oyaks and your study of what happened to Moses and whether he died or not. Pastor wey no know Bible or God!

Yeah; and there are BILLIONS of unbelievers all over the world too - are they right because they have large numbers? Dude, wake up. I keep telling you this is not a pulpit where you can whip up excitement amongst gullible people and get no response.

why should you conclude I'm not contributing anything to society? I'm not like you . I'm a multipurpose man. I'm an artist. Sculptor,painter with several exhibitions. In and out of the country. Meet me on facebook if you want to know my world. I'm not a destroyer like you. Others are building Christ kingdom you guys only specialize in tearing it with posts and thread that don't contribute but destroy. Men of God are working. Praying and fasting , building lives. You guys Guys sit down and attack and criticise . How many souls have you won for Jesus , what I'm I saying sef . Does he understand salvation in the first place. PLEASE DONT PREACH OO! make u no go send people to hell.!

You called me Eleyin rira! Kai! You nko. Eleyin wankaka bi oku cementary! Oloju four corner bio showglass iya alakara! Elese wogowogo bii wogo train!!!!

Christianity Etc › Re: What It Means To Be "born Again"! by Joagbaje(m): 8:55pm On May 02, 2010

If you want me to respond to anything, ask , not by sending abuses.

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