₦airaland Forum

Enigma:
@Joagbaje

What the blood of Jesus did, is that "atonement" or not

YES/NO
The blood of Jesus did not cover our sins like the blood of bulls . The blood of Jesus took away Sin .That is not atonement . The atonement in the OT was a shaddow of what Christ did. But The word used for atonement in NT. was not same in meaning . It meant reconciliation and not "cover" and it didnt refere to sin.

@ InesQor

InesQor:
@Joagbaje: Im sorry to burst your bubble but I was going to give the exact same reply as aletheia gave above. Please reply as you can.

I will not want us to enter extreme in semantics. Atonmement primarily means to cover Sin. But the Usage of the word in the NT was not properly applied is reconciliation. We have to remember that the bible was not written in English. And some of the translators read thier own level of knowledge into tranlation, We may spare that for now because that is not my main point, I know cleansing was part of the usage for atonement. under OT. But it primarily means to cover sin .You have to judge this according to truth . The blood of bulls cant take sin away, if it could, there would be no need for Jesus blood. There is difference between Sin and Sins. "Sin" primarily refers to the adamic nature while "sins" primarily refers to conducts and trespasses ,though sometimes they are still used interchangably. The blood of bulls does not wash away sin it only appeased God for a period. The atonement did not take away sin.

Hebrews 10:4
For it is not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

It was like using mouthwash instead of brushing your teeth. even though your breath taste minty , the dirt is still there!

Now back to our main discussion. One of the controversial issues was the fact that i said An umbeliever cannot sin. This is a gospel truth. Sin is a nature inherited through Adam.
Romans 3:23
For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
this scripture is not talking about errors of individuals but the sin of Adam. So an umbeliever does not become sinner by wrong doing. he is a sinner by birth , even if he never do wrong. so he does not have a sin to confess.

Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

So the umbeliever is dead in sin already before he was ever born.

Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

This is not heresy but the truth. If a n umbeliever does evil, it is natural for him, he is not comitting any sin. But if a Christian does evil, it is not his nature, he is sinning and need to repent and recieve firgiveness.

Altheia pls get off my back! You are the confused person.The word used for Atonement in Romans is not the same as OT in meaning. I don't want issues with you because you are not a discussant but a typical Nigerian street fighter without fruits of the spirit.

Alll these funny funny posts. Why is it only tithes they have left to rescue emmergency. Yesterday , tithe or house rent, Today,tithe or hospital  tommorow a woman will be in labour and guess what ? "should we buy nappy for the baby or pay tithe?.

All these funny posts . Is it to discredit tithing? Tithing is an ordinace forever, It is our honour, worshhip to Gpd as our source. The primary way by which the work of God and the ministers are supoorted is through tithes and offerings and there is nothing the devil can do about that.

1 Cor. 9:13-14
Do ye not know that they which minister about holy things live of the things of the temple? and they which wait at the altar are partakers with the altar? [14] Even so hath the Lord ordained that they which preach the gospel should live of the gospel.

davidylan:
Jesus was aware of the stealing and rebuked Judas openly. Where is Chris' rebuke? why is he refusing to give back stolen funds?

why do thieves thrive under his "ministry"?

Show me the scripture where Jesus rebuked Judas for his stealing,
If pastor Chris had done anything wrong , the law would have taken its toll on him. was the money given to Chris Oyakhilome? Ask NTA station to produce the money given for airtime. We have a judicial system in the country, you shouldnt use your myopic mind to make judgement.

critics are simply people that does nothing but always sit arround talking about who is doing something. Get something to do boys. I said earlier why don't you blame Jesus for judas stealings? How could good Jesus produce a thief? How could Paul produce thieves and fornicators in corinthian church?
Critics don't really think straight because they don't build or contribute anything but only tries to tear down what good works others are building.

InesQor:
Joagbaje said the sin is still there but , repercussion is withheld



Yeepa!!!!

what are you yepaiing about ? The atonement only cover sin but does not wash sin away . It expires and has to be renewed yearly. It is the blood of Jesus that washed away sin and eliminate it completely.

Heb 10:4
For [it is] not possible that the blood of bulls and of goats should take away sins.

We need to first understand the fact that Sin is a nature, A man does not need to do anything wrong to be a sinner
.
Romans 5:14
Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.

Just like Nuella2 explained earlier.A man is born in sin. If he never did any evil thing , he is still a sinner. an inocent child is still a sinner! The nature of sin is in the blood. That is why a christian is born , not of blood.

John 1:13
Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Either a man does right or wrong , hes a candidate for hell, Adam had sinned on his behalf. We sinned through Adam.
Romans 5:12
Wherefore, as by one man(Adam) sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: ( through Adam).

So this nature of sin ,is not what you ask forgiveness for. It has to be taken away. This is the "remission" of sin nature .and you recieve a new nature of righteousness by faith.

InesQor:
@Joagbaje: That's splitting hairs, bro. Remission involves forgiveness

Yes I agree with you but forgiveness is pardon for sin, atonement is cover up of sin , the sin is still there but , repercussion is withheld. remission wipes sin of as though it never existed.

InesQor:
@Joagbaje: Thanks for your response. But no it won't be a derailment, BECAUSE we are talking about being born again and its attendant meanings. Forgiveness is a vital point which you and I can not ignore.

Let me follow your line of thought, although I disagree that the Lord's prayer is not for the church.

However, you said the Lord's prayer was not taught to the church but to unsaved people in an intertestamental period. So do you agree that Jesus told these UNSAVED non-Christians to ask for forgiveness, and as such at least for those ones, non-Christians have prayed for forgiveness?

@JeSoul: Wonderful idea about youtube, big sis. I like that!

It was a legitimate prayer under their dispensation. The standard of righteousness was different from  the Church age. there was forgiveness and atonement under judaism. But no remission. Jeus has brought remmission. a man has to embrace remmision first before he can be qualified for forgiveness.

MyJoe:
@JeSoul
A good move. I hope someone who truly believes like you do same in Lagos. People are so indoctrinated it makes you sick - "the blessings attached to tithing", "the blessing of first fruit", "prophet offering". The worst of all is the matter of morality nuclearboy speaks of. Here you have people who think that once they meet their financial obligations to "God", nothing else matters. If you try getting into a discussion with some of them about these issues, your eyes will truly open, because Joagbaje's own is a small thing.

It is your post that is making somebody sick because it does not contribute anything.

InesQor:
@Joagbaje: I don't think aletheia insulted you, but at least you know I wouldn't do that. Can you please answer his questions for my sake, or at least answer this one?

I dont want us to derail a thread. But if I should answer you . The lords prayer  was not taught to the Church. It was taught to people who had not been born again nor recieved the holyspirit. We can call their time intertestimental period. The lords prayer contains a formatt of great principles. We can not be reciting it as new creation. In Christ we pray by the holyghost.

John 16:13
   Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

There is no place where the Church prayed the so called " lords prayer"  A christian can only offer prayer by the spirit. and not recitation!

Ephes. 6:18
   Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints;

Aletheia your posts have been full of insults and all. I dont want anything to get me out of Christian love, I dont want my righteous soul poluted or grieved. I love to discuss with people that are ready to reason scripturally. I had told you this before that i wont respond to you again. I dont have anything to hide.You dont stay on topic but veeer off into personal attacks and all. Even if you dont like my post , it is not reason for abuses.That is the reason i stopped responding to you. I stand for truth.

aletheia:
Joagbaje, you have come again with your twisting of words: Three lies in your statement.1. Every man sins.2. Whatever evil an unsaved man commits is sin. Again Rom 3:23
3. He can't be forgiven? Now you are God to declare that a man cannot be forgiven. The implication of this your statement is that the vicarious atonement of Jesus is not enough. Only one sin is will not be forgiven.
4. You corrupt the grace of God and turn it into a licence for sin by your statement: "its only a christian that can sin and recieve forgiveness"

You shoould know by now I dont waste my time responding to people like you again. maybe someone else will help your ignorance.

2 Tim. 3:7
Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.


Anybody out there

CHARLOE:
- can u be born again twice?
- if u can only be born again only once does that mean once u're born again u can go on commiting sin and still remain born again? (this is what some churches teach)
- if after been 'born again' u commit a sin, what happens then? Are u no longer born again? if u repent of that sin, are u now born again, again?
- why do we still fall sick, lack and experience what everybody pass thru even after been born again? (Saying 'am strong when u're sick doesn't change d fact u're sick!)
This is d era of grace quite alright, but is it a license to live our lives d way we deem fit? or are there God's laws we're to obey? laws that act as our mirror, to guide us. Concerning what peter said, know that Scripture interprets scripture. This is a topic that require wide and intensive study, not just taking one verse alone and building a belief around it while ignoring others. Like i said earlier, i'll make a comprehensive post this evening.

You get born again only once. If you sin , or make a mistake, it doesnt stop you from being born again . For your information , the only person that can sin is a christian!. What ever evil an unsaved man commits is not a sin. He is the embodiment of sin already! He cant be forgiven, but its only a christian that can sin and recieve forgiveness. No Child of God like to sin , but there is provision for him if he does.

1 John 2:1
My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

KunleOshob:
Greater than John indeed, i laugh in summersaulting spiritual tongues. You are that great and yet you are still doing boiboi to a very ignorant charlatan who Just sees te gospel as a meal tickect. Even your Oga is very shallow an his only area of specialization is in the debauchery of the bible and manipiulating it to say things it doesn't say and when scriptures are shown to clearly oppose his heretics he dimisses the scriptures and claims he has "revelation". yeye bunch of ignorant 419 charlatans. you better wake up and renounce this cult which you operate it and start seeking true salvation.

All you do is insults and abuses. Cant you for once discuss inteligibly? Why im i even wasting my time with this unstable individual?
well let me give you a home work to study baby.

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.

PLS DONT DERAIL THE THREAD OK?!!

God does not need your seed to bless you, You are blessed already in Christ. But Satan needs your greed to rob you of your blesing. The blessing of God does not materialise on its own. there are deeds of faith required on our part to activate the blessings we already have. Jesus didnt pay for the salvation of christians. He paid for the salvation of the entire world but is everybody saved? NO! why . There is a step of faith to take. does that mean they are paying another price for salvation? No!.Thesame principles applies to finances, health and everything Jesus had done for us. When we give, we turn on the grace to recieve. Jesus didnt say "pray for money"

Luke 6:38
Give, and it shall be given unto you; good measure, pressed down, and shaken together, and running over, shall men give into your bosom. For with the same measure that ye mete withal it shall be measured to you again.

Philip. 4:16-17
For even in Thessalonica ye sent once and again unto my necessity. [17] Not because I desire a gift: but I desire fruit that may abound to your account.

Galatians 6:6-9
Let him that is taught in the word communicate unto him that teacheth in all good things. [7] Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. [9] And let us not be weary in well doing: for in due season we shall reap, if we faint not.

A son does the work of the father. What would you have a pastor's son become? They are oneof the most attacked people by the devil. right from bible days , Like Eli sons , Samuel sons becoming wayward children , we have many pastor's sons joining cults and wild parties today. If you find a pastor bring up his Children in ministry, he should be commended. He is a sucessful man. A son is suposed to take after the father.

John 8:44
Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do.

John 5:17
But Jesus answered them, My Father worketh hitherto, and I work.

Benjamin was left handed , the whole tribe of benjamin also were left handed.
Judges 3:15
But when the children of Israel cried unto the Lord, the Lord raised them up a deliverer, Ehud the son of Gera, a Benjamite, a man lefthanded: and by him the children of Israel sent a present unto Eglon the king of Moab.

Judges 20:16
Among all this people there were seven hundred chosen men lefthanded; every one could sling stones at an hair breadth, and not miss.

It is a spiritual law sort of in my opinion. A father leaves legacy behind for his Children . Abraham taught his household after God. Having Family member in the ministry is a spiritual success and not the carnal "family business " thing that some people on this forum would have us belive. Moses was leader and pastor. His Elder brother Aaron was highpriest, His Elder sister Mirian was prophetess. Aaron sons were in ministry. Philip the Evangelist's daughters were in ministry.

Acts 21:8-9
we entered into the house of Philip the evangelist, which was one of the seven; and abode with him. [9] And the same man had four daughters, virgins, which did prophesy.
So if you see a man that is able to sucessfuly bring his family up in ministry, he should be commended.
What qualified James as head of the Church in jerusalem? My guess: "he was Jesus's younger brother!

KunleOshob:
I am not suprised at your comment after all members of your cult beleive that Peter did not have a full grasp of the Gospel of christ even though Jesus chose him as a leader amongst his disciples.

I am shocked you are quoting from the same James you earlier descibed as a "baby" christian. You would have done better to quote from your "more authuritative" rapshody of realities or better still any of pastor chris teachings.

I did acknowledge that James had great principles , you may go back and read them. But his depth of James revelation knowledge is shallow , compared to Paul's . John the baptist had great principles too. but I am greater than john. How do you reconcile the differences in James teaching and Pauls teachings, or you didnt observe any conflict?

A christian is born in the image of God. he is part of God. So the song is not apllicable to the new creation.
John 17:21-22
That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me. [22] And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

2 Cor. 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the[b] glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory,[/b] even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Enigma:
I suspect this question is being asked from the perspective of a CEC member! Anyway you may start your quest for an answer by taking your time to study the first passage given below together with the passages that you referred to, one of which is the second --- and indeed all the other passages that you yourself cited:

1 Tim 3:16

1 Pet 5:1

_{Oju n'kan awon ara CEC!}

This is good, at least you acknowledge the fact that CEC members have insights that many lack into the scriptures

A believer can not lose salvation so long as he is a believer. But if a man who has been born again denies Christ wilfully , he ceases to be a christian. A man cannot lose salvation by mistake. A man must have yielded to the devil to lose his salvation. For such person he must have known his left from right. he must have known the word of God well enough , he must have known the power of God. Then with all these knowledge he goes back to denyJesus as lord and blasphame against him.

Hebrews 6:4-6
For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost, [5] And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come, [6] If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Get saved, and share the gospel of Christ with them.

Romans 1:16
For the gospel of Christ is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth;

Get rooted in a faith teaching Church , get acquainted with with knowledge of your authority as a beliver. If you are born again ( which you didnt indicate) You can exercise you authority as a christian. Rebuke the spirit of death from your family. Break that curse of darkness from the family by speaking life to them . But they have to embrace the gospel personaly and be grounded in a word based church.

2 Cor. 5:17
Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new.

KunleOshob:
Very nice submissions which i tend to agree with and i actually once postulated this theory on a previous thread on this forum but the position was punctured when someone referred me to a scripture in which peter described believers as "born again" this implied it was supposed to be here and now and not in the after life. The verse is quoted below for your consideration:

1 Peter 1:22-23:

22Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.

From the above statements of peter it implies born again means someone that the soul has been purified and now has the spirit of God exhibited through unfeigned love to one and other and being incorruptible[holy]

Iro nla ni!

Being born again is an instatanous experience. The moment you confess the lordship of Christ by faith, you recieve the gift of eternal life. being born again is not a progressive experience at all.  The only progressive part is your growth which is the salvation of your soul. We may use the term "souls saved" in generic term but it is not precisely thesame. Man is a Spirit, he has a Soul and he lives in a Body.  The man get "born" or recreated in his spirit the moment he recieves Christ by confessing him as lord. Bu the salvayion of the soul which is growth and maturity is a continous process until Jesus come. The takes place by the agency of the word of God.

James 1:21
   Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is[b] able to save your souls.[/b]

Hebrews 10:39
   But we are not of them who draw back unto perdition; but of them that believe to the saving of the soul.

The point is, when a man confesses Jesus as lord, even if he drops dead instantly, He goes to heaven  because salvation is by faith and not works.

What about reciepts? are we supposed to carry laptop receipts ? A policeman once stopped my car to ask for the receipts of the laptop, My handset was even more costly than the laptop. It was not a small thing. I had to settle. I thought its a personal gadget like my PDA

Blackberry storm phones. have been challenging for me. blackberry storm 1 and 2. Sometimes all the bottons will just freeze , I would have to reboot a couple of times before it resumes normally. I dont know if all blackberries are like that.

wiser indeed

Pastor Chris never encouraged all these quick money doubling business. He taught strictly against. it In the partners conference benin 2007. He asked what kind of business do they dowith depositors money to have such huge profit. He said even oil business could not have brought such turn over,

@Enigma.

Pastor Chris does not write letters to people for giving money. How many thousands will he write to. ? I have recieve letters as a partner , You are learned enough to know that all these letters and bulk Sms are computerized. Someone is incharge doing it on behalf of the man of God. I have recieved SMS from the state governor even voice mail or whatever. I know it was sent generally by computer. Imagine me going going aboutsaying that the governor has sent SMS TO ME!

Why is so so evil report you guys enjoy to hear and spread. I,m yet to see you comment or report how many thousands led to christ in pastor Chris's crusade.

If a member committs a crime, you dont blame the pastor. No pastor will teach people to steal.

1 Cor. 13:6
Love Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;
If someone steals he needs help. Paul had some that stole in his churches , why dont you blame Paul

Ephes. 4:28
Let him that stole steal no more: but rather let him labour, working with his hands the thing which is good, that he may have to give to him that needeth.

Judas was a thief under Jesus nose , why dont you blame Jesus. Was Jesus still a man of God? yes or No?

aisha2:
I really wish you will spend time and really study the word of God. I used to be like you, Then my Mom and Sister both died from Cancer in 6 months, then i turned completely away from God because i believed that it was not our portion, why should they die when God had promised us divine health. However, after six months of turning away from God like the crowd who on monday hailed him and King and on wednesday screamed crucify Him, but i started reading the bible myself and read all the scriptures myself and saw that most times its quoted out of context and never read through.
I pray for you that it wont take my kind of expereince to bring you to really worshiping God

Ki lo n so? So what is the conclusion of your bible reading, Is it that God killed your mother. Is cancer now your portion?.

@ Enigma

Enigma:
Pastor Joagbaje

You suddenly got shy? Perhaps the below might jog your memory?

Source

ETA also: Christ Embassy & Stolen N39m: A Question of Integrity

I didnt go shy, I must have missed the post. Pastor Chris has no business to refund money, given by a person to God. Did he give the money to pastor Chris? Pastor Chris did not even know him. The issue of generator happened in another branch. What has it got to do with pastor Chris. There is lawin the land. If it has to do with pastor Chris, the law should have been invoked. He has no case to answer. If a thief flies to abuja by cha changi airline, will you ask the airline to pay back the ticket money. It is not a pastors busness to question people's sources of offerings but he will teach them truth about honesty and integrity. If i give something to God ,its between me and God. I could sell my car and give the money as i am led. The money was not meant for Pastor Chris , he was only a custodian and if the guy gave money for partnership as theyclaim, they should go to AIT, NTA, and all the TV stations where partnership money have been used to pay airtime. AIT director should be arrested . common guys we have law in the land. You guys are intelligent people but when it comes to the issue of pastor Chris and