₦airaland Forum

Another aspect of church growth is in follow up and cell system. Many churches have neglected this . As they win souls , some. Slip away through the back door unnoticed like a net that is torn.

nuclearboy:
@Joagbaje:

There is something called a pyramid effect. It informs that if Jesus reached 12 and they reached 3000 and those reached 1, 000, 000, it was actually Jesus who reached the 1, 000, 000. Else how would they have gotten the message they passed on? Your words to Ogajim make you sound deprecating of Christ.

Far from it. We are expected to do more than he did.according to your pyramid effect, Abraham should take all the glory since. The promise was for Abraham and Jesus was the seed of Abraham. It doesn't work that way . We are all extensions of Christ and Jesus is still working through us now . But we were talking about the work Jesus did while on earth. We are expected to do more and greater than he did. We are not competing with him. He is glorified that we do greater works.he is not jealous but rather he will filled fulfilled .

Please try to temper down the words you use in describing issues - I get the impression that you do not mean evil but the truth is that not only Christians read these things we write. Your words make you sound like an advocate of the hitler youth syndrome i.e. "we are superior to others". That is saddening coming from not just a Christian (humility being Christ's trademark) but a minister and you might be suprised to find that impression is why so many are vitriolic when responding to you - nobody likes to be looked down upon.

i don't agree with you here . I sometimes use some hard words when certain posters get insultive. And many times i try to ignore the insults and stick to the topic. It's only when it gets on me sometimes I reply them according to the tone of their posts like proverbs says.

Proverbs 26:5
5 Answer a fool according to his folly, lest he be wise in his own conceit.

And FYI, you can never dream of reaching the number of people Jesus reached even if you spend another thousand years on earth.

Jesus had 120 converts in his earthly ministry. Read the bible for yourself.

Acts 1:15
15 And in those days Peter stood up in the midst of the disciples, and said,( the number of names together were about an hundred and twenty,

The highest he had in a single crusade was a little above 5,000 . We have churches of 10, 20,50,000 single congregation and more. People have crusades of millions in Single meeting.

John 14:12
12 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater[ works] than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

whatever result we are having , he is glorified we are not talking down on him.

@Romeo4real,

Romeo4real:
@Joagbaje -
Why are you saying these illogical things? The question for you is - What is a "Christian"? Is it someone who is "saved"? What does it mean to be "saved"?

It means for a man to recieve the life of God by faith through the confession of christ as lord .

What is "righteousness"?

Righteousness is the nature of God that grants ability to man to stand in Gods pressence and also giving man ability to do right.

What is a "mistake"?

A mistake is any works of the flesh. Any wrong step which is contrary to the life and nature of God in a christian

Are you aware that a a person does not become righteous because he is saved?
Are you aware that a person does not become righteous because he is a Christian? Are you aware of these things?

I'm aware that you don't understand word or doctrine of righteousness as yet.

Hebrews 5:13
13 For every one that useth milk[ is] unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

. Drinking beer is not wrong, nor is it a sin for a Christian.

I agree with you it's not sin but it's still bad habit.

Cursing, fighting however are sins. ALL sinners are son's of God - That has nothing to do with righteousness. We are ALL [/b]son's of God; but that does not make us righteous before God. Please study your Bible properly.

I see , you view righteousness according to good works. That was under the law of Moses their righteousness was by keeping the law.
[b]Deuteronomy 6:25
25 And it shall be our righteousness, if we observe to do all these commandments before the our God, as he hath commanded us.

Righteousness is a gift we recieve by faith. The righteouness of the law is like rag compared to Gods own righteousness.

Romans 3:21-22
21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God[ which is] by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Philippians 3:9
9 And be found in him, not having mine own righteousness, which is of the law, but that which is through the faith of Christ, the righteousness which is of God by faith:


So you see , righteousness is not by good works but by faith. It is a gift. And God does not take away the gift just because we did wrong.

You said nobody has ever shown you that if a Christian sins , he is not a sinner. If you understand righteousness , the mystery will be solved for you. God does count sin against us.

2 Corinthians 5:19
19 For God was in Christ, restoring the world to himself, no longer counting men's sins against them but blotting them out. This is the wonderful message he has given us to tell others.


if you are born again and still call youself a sinner, you have trampled on the blood of christ and made it none effect.if you have recieve eternal life, you are no longer a sinner. Your righteousness is a gift.

Romans 5:17
17.they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

.

MOG2009:
@Joagbaje is more of inconvenience to the things of the spirit than convenience. Have you thought about the "Siren", "Armoured car" and "Armed Police Officers" likely to interrupted weekly service. The kind of "panick or anxiety" this might cause for the members. Secondly, who gets the "charges fees" for convenience, the church or the bank? Thirdly, what impression will this "business" creat in the minds of people that is against it? Good or Bad. In addition, the church could be drawing attention of armed robbers and ATM fraudsters because of convenience!!! However, the church is supposed to be the temple of God. A sacred place that must promote spiritual things which is not convenience to the flesh.

I will like your honest response.

There is no use of siren or amoured car for ATM. The amount cash it carries is very small which the bank can upload easily . such services by bank is not carried out during church activities. It is not the church that benefit from the charges on ATM but the bank. This is so simple. Instead of the church members looking for ATM machies arround , if one is install at the church gate, it is an answer to prayers for the members. There have been ocassions I will treck to Mr bigss or a bank to look for ATM machines in EMMergency. Maybe i see some new books or tapes i would have loved to buy. So slotting my card in an ATM machine is for everybody convinience.

@ Gunnaz007,
welcome back, This topic is so simple, but some misunderstands it as though one is encouraging sin, Far from it. God has given us dominion over sin. The bible is clear on this.

Romans 6:14
For sin shall not have dominion over you:

The issue we are dealing with has to do with the name "Sinner" for a Christian who did wrong. It is the unsaved man that is the sinner because of the nature of sin in him. The Christian is the righeousness of God because of the nature of righteousness in him. He cant lose this nature of righteousnes , even if he makes a mistake. Do you disown your child because he poos on his body?. I dont take beer, I discourage any christian from it. But if a christian is found with beer, he is still the son of God with holding a bottle of beer. Thesame thing goes for any other work of flesh. cursing o, fighting o. it does not take away the nature of righteousness from them. They are still righteous before God .

I will respond with scriptural references soon

Mudley313:
mr. joagbaje, why dont your multi-billion dolar pastors reach out to poorer nations like rwanda and afghanistan where they truly need to hear the gospel instead of establishing multi-branches in the UK and the US where the pounds and dollars is at, and where they already have enough of these blood sulking churches, if the sole aim of the ministry business is not money but spreading of the word?

You are very wrong, are you not seeing tranlations of rhapsody in all these languages? We are reaching them also through satelite , and we are getting so many responses. Try get one of the decoders and see how many muslims have come to faith in those islamic nations. Many travelled all the way for healing school and got healed. Internet is another medium by which we are reaching them. That is what we are using our billions for. Give us few years from now if Jesus tarries and see how we wiil network the world through the gospel.

how has the present expansion of prosperity peddling penterascal business enterprises affected our homeland nigeria? why are people still more greedy and corrupt and the poor still more impoverished while all the penterascal chalatans have to show is expanding business empires, private jets, mansions, designer suits etc? how positively

The word of God is the first change agent.That is why the world class rhapsody is been made available for all. In their languages. We have them now in almost all nigerian languages. and we try as much as possibe to make it free for people. especially during independence celebration. We pay for millions of copies of these materials and give people , from Aso rock villa to anthony villa and ajegunle ghetto.We have a dream to make it available to all nigerians free someday. Change is taking place already in Nigeria. We are changing mindset of people .

We have The REACHOUT NIGERIA campaign every october 1st. To awaken the spirit of patriotism in the nation. We brought joy ,laughter and celebration back into our independence celebration which the nation has forgotten.We reach out to less priviledge children. through the INNER CITY MISSION. accomodate them and give them scholarships. We have hostels for them in different pars of the country. Our branch in PH gave the model school, there 5 million nara library material and built a high tech computer centre in the prison in ph. one of the lagos branches donated hilux patril vans to aide The nigerian polic work. These are just few among many many things we do with our billions.

So Why do you have bad belle over a pastor wearing designer suits. Is the suit for animals? Is it not for human beings?. what do you recommend for them to wear?

REAL TRUTH:
Please do you remember this song then:Baba palase latorun wa, ki gbogbo aye yo wariri,,complete it for me,,,,CCC hymn and songs are more spiritual and heaven consciuos than all these disco penterascals songs,,,

Is it by song or the concept of salvationThe spirituality of a song is not in melodies but the biblical content. some parts of their songs are scriptural some are unscriptural.

at CCC,,,Do you know Evangelists J.K. Farinmade? He used to be the Gospec Fellowship Coordinator,,,I am yet to see any man of God that is as vast as he is in the Bible except pastor Kumuyi,,,,
I left CCC to join some of these Penterascals Churches,,,RCCG being one of them,,,the CCC i attended then was better than the RCCG now,,,,If you know J.K. Farinmade,,,you would know what am talking about,,,

So where is  Farimade  now? Has  he not packed up? You had better go back to the pentirascals. At least they are consistent, and they are still here.

My friend. Pastors dont extort the poor

babaearly:
must women become insignificant and second fiddle because they were created for the man, that they must submit to the man?

babaearly:
so you say a wife must play a supportive role, what about equal roles?

As far as leadership in the home is concerned, yes. they ought to submit to the man. There has to be a leader. Leadership doesnt mean perfect. There are areas a woman may be stronger than the man, such as decorations, negotiations or for some, financial management. a good man must recognise the strenght of the wife and submit to her there by delegating her for such. But the woman must learn to make her genius ideas be a suggestion to the man but not to usurp authority over the man . And if the man seems to be wrong and he insists things must go his way, she should obey and talk to God to touch his heart.

JeSoul:
. . . but when it comes to the musicians, suddenly, they should give freely? and "glorify God with their gifts" How come visiting pastors cannot glorify God with their gifts? usually their contracts and compensation are discussed upfront when they are invited, why should it be any different for any other member of the body?

The bible specifically commanded concerning pastors and teachers. but not instrumentalist. They are not part of the 5 fold ministry.

Ephes. 4:11
And he gave some, apostles; and some, prophets; and some, evangelists; and some, pastors and teachers;

If you have to pay instrumentalist, then you should pay ushers,greeters and chior members. What the church should do for instrumentalist, is to help them get a job; start a business etc. They can be employed by the church as staff but not for playing instruments. You employ them like any other staff , they should have their daily responsibilities.afterall You dont play instruments everydday in church. So the playing of instruments will only be a bonus.
The 1,ooo or 2,000 some collects as pay from their pastors will not even be enough to feed them . so There should be a bigger plan. a man that goes into a church for instrumentation contract is a hireling. he will have no commitment and spirituality. No loyalty. he will dissappear once there is a better offer elsewhere.Spiritual vagabonding

@Africankel,
Pls leave the ganja SEED alone. Look at his name now? GANJA! SEED!. SEED OF GANJA. what else would you expect.

Proverbs 26:4
Answer not a fool according to his folly, lest thou also be like unto him.

ogajim:
I don't expect any less from a pastor who claims Jesus Christ didn't reach as much people as your "pastor christ" does today.

So Ogajim tell us . How many people did Jesus Christ of nazareth converted in his earthly ministry.
From my understanding of scriptures , he expects us to do more than he did.

John 14:12
Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me, the works that I do shall he do also; and greater works than these shall he do; because I go unto my Father.

So Ogajim, how many did Jesus reached.

Paul never calls a Christian sinner. This is not English language but spiritual. A sinner is the unsaved man. The fact that a Christian does something wrong has not changed his nature from righteousness. And the fact that a sinner(umbells) does nice things doesnt make him righteous. If good works will not make a sinner righteous, same way mistake of the rightrous will not change his nature to a sinner. You may bark like a dog but it will never change your nature to be a dog. You are a human.

For all that says otherwise, let me ask you. If you bark like a Dog what are you?

Read the scriptures bellow. Who is refered to as sinner?, and who is refered to as righteous? Christians or the unsaved? Let us wrap up this matter.

1 Peter 4:18
And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?

Romans 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

Jesu came as man. He strippped himself of the Deity because he came as man's representative

REAL TRUTH:
I actually believe that Christianity is supposed to be a "RELATIONSHIP" btw men and God,,,but in your own opinion what is PFN
And pls tell me if the way these people who calls themselves Christains in Nigeria,,,if that is how to practice what Jesus believed,lived for and died for
One of the Ghandi's once said that "she loves Jesus,,Loves the Bible but hates the practioners of christianity"
How sad the only way that shows us the direction to God has been so badly abused,,,

I agree it is a relationship and it is also a participation in the life of God.
As regards PFN. They have constitutional right to exist and associate. But the power they seek from the Government to use against other churches is umbiblical.

1 Cor. 6:1-6
Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? [2] Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? [3] Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life? [4] If then ye have judgments of things pertaining to this life, set them to judge who are least esteemed in the church. [5] I speak to your shame. Is it so, that there is not a wise man among you? no, not one that shall be able to judge between his brethren? [6] But brother goeth to law with brother, and that before the unbelievers.

babaearly:
Your lies are glamorous.

Explain yourself with the bible or just keep quiet if you no nothing about this topic.

Proverbs 17:28
Even a fool, when he holdeth his peace, is counted wise: and he that shutteth his lips is esteemed a man of understanding.

babaearly:
@joagbaje

hello convenience pastor. where have you been too? because you are just like the house built on sands. the foundation is crumbling. just take a look at you defending ATM in churches twice. who dey figt you? wheres your allegiance- prosperity or salvation?

You people's problem is poverty mentality. You always feel someone is after your money somewhere. Is everything all about money. . I embrace technology, Technology is of God. ATM is for convinience. Dont eatries have ATM. You had better join Osama bi ladden in the desert!

The first healing i got was in early 90's when I used to be sick of malaria. I came across a little book by kenyon. "Jesus The Healer " was the title. The book was hot for me to chew. I got healed instantly following the instruction of the book. few occasions when simptoms of malariatries to show face . I just released the word and it will dissappear. But now its a new ball game. with the teachings of pastor Chris, I have come to a higher level where i dont need healing again. Ive learnt to walk in divine health.

Romans 8:11
But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.

JeSoul:
Donnie, you're muddying the waters.

A. There are musicians who play recreationally, at church, at occasional events etc. Then -
B. There are professional musicians who play as a means of earning their livelihood

You can expect your approach for category A and indeed it is the approach that I usually take myself (if I get paid great, if I don't that's great too). But for category B, you cannot expect them to book dates and events, especially when travel is involved without their enquiring in advance about payment for their services.

Other professionally trained people do not typically offer their services (be it to a religious event or not) for free. Why should it be different for musicians?

Matthew 10:8
Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out devils: freely ye have received, freely give.

As much as we may not neglect to appreciate Christian musicans financially. I think its wrong for them to put money first as top priority. It is like inviting a preacher and he starts to talk about how much he will charge. He ought to come first, then we know the word of od enough to appreciate them well financially.

1 Tim. 5:17
Let the elders that rule well be counted worthy of double honour, especially they who labour in the word and doctrine.

@ Donnie,

donnie:
@ Joeagbaje
Abeg you go teach me only one o. . . bass guiter! plssss, or how much

You can send me your e mail adress or send your number here for a start. joagbaje@yahoo.com. I no go charge you money

Somebody once said Christianity is the best among religion. Christianity is not the best religion.God is not in an religion. Christianity is not a religion. Religion is man's search for God. but Christianity is God's way of bringing man to himself. Everything is wrong with religion but Christianity is not one of them.

John 14:6
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.

i Play, Keboards, talking drum, bass,lead guitar. conga, drum set. I just got a trumpet i'm learning now my mouth dey pain me.

Serpent is simbolic of sin. The serpet on the cross was symolic of christ who became sin on our behalf so that we can recieve grace. If a serpent that symbolises sin will now say "Luli" which means "Grace" I think its still in harmony. Where sin was , grace has come. It was a contrast between Grace and Sin in my own opinion.

Romans 5:20
, But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Atm is for the convinience of everybody, ATM in churches is for members convinience. The ATM in churches are not situated inside the church building, but rather outside where it can be accessible by all and passers by. It is different from money changers inside the temple meant for prayers that Jesus talked about.

There are several resusrections and several raptures or " catching ups". After a resurrection , there will be a catching up to heaven (rapture).
when Jesus rose from the dead , he was caught up to heaven with David and all the saints of old. He will come for the church also at the rapture. The dead in Christ will be raised and raptured to heaven first. Then we that are alive will be raptured to heaven also.

1 Thes. 4:16-17
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [17] Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

1 Cor. 15:22-24
For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

At the rapture, we will be in heaven for 7 years while those left on the earth will be in 7 years period of tribulation. At the end of the seven years tribulation, we will come back to the earth with christ to fight for israel and deliver them from their enemy( anti christ). Then there will be a period of 1000 years of peace on earth. We the saints will reign with Christ onthe earth.After this, the devil who had been thrown into bottomless pit for 1000 years will be released for a short period again on the earth, he will go out to decieve some more people and this will lead to the final battle.of Gog and Maggog. All evil will finally end. There will be a new heaven and new earth. We and God will finally dwell forever in the new earth.

Rev. 20:6-8
Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years. [7] And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison, [8] And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

chukwudi44:
The $5.7b,they donated to health in america alone is far above the $20m Adeboye spent on his private jet.

Did Adeboye buy the jet or it was gift

I went to a catholic pry school. I didn't see any pope donation. I paid. In my days of ignorance of healing when I used to be sick I was going to catholic hospital. I paid . Where is the pope donation. The only thing I saw free was idols and images of baby Jesus and Maria! And so called saints.

ogajim:
, ROR is not the Holy Bible dude!

Who says rhapsody is holy bible. I thought we all went to school. Rhapsody is a devotional dude!

FYI: The Catholic Church can buy RCCG, Winners, Love-world, Mountain of fire, etc and still have enough spare change to buy Nigeria and the rest of Africa

Is it with the coins they give as offerings there they will use to buy RCCG? . So youre a catholic!
If you know how many billions great ministries like CEC commit to the work of God. You wont be sayig this kind of childish nonsense. Are churches in competition?

and yet the Pope doesn't own a private jet.

If he can afford it he would have had one, Why would he need one anyway,Does he hold crusade or heal the sick , where is he going with jet. Those who had jet has ministerial obligations to use it for. Not for pleasure ride.

.
You guys appear to be plain NUTS worshiping your MOGs instead of Jesus Christ our true savior.

Catholic boy thank you. I worship Jesus. And for your information, my pastor doesnt have private jet He chatter a plane ,but if the journey becomes more frequent and it seems to be more economical to buy one than to chatter, He will get it with the snap of a finger.

kieryn:
Food for thought: If all good people go to heaven what happen to the earth?

1. God original purpose for the earth was for it to be cultivated and multiplied. And Adam and Eve were given this responsibility. And as long as they did so and were obedient they will live forever on earth. There reward was not heaven.

You are partially correct, We shall dwell on the earth forever, but we will get to heaven first. before we finally come back to dwell on the earth forever.

2. We pray let your will take place on earth as in heaven, isn't that "will" the original purpose for the earth

Not in the like you re looking at it. The spiritual realm controlls the material physical realm. Everything has taken place in the spiritual realm befre physical. We pray to align ourselves with what God has decreed . We are instrumental to enforce his will on earth now.Jesus did not just do things at will , he had to align himself with what the father was doing in the heavely realm.

John 5:19-20
Then answered Jesus and said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, The Son can do nothing of himself, but what he seeth the Father do: for what things soever he doeth, these also doeth the Son likewise. [20] For the Father loveth the Son, and sheweth him all things that himself doeth: and he will shew him greater works than these, that ye may marvel.

3. Psalms 37:11,29-Both speaks about inheriting and possessing the land. Is this land "earth".

4. David, who I believe was a "good" person did not go to heaven- Act 2:34. Where did he go?

He was in hades before but when jesus rose from the dead, he raise others also from the dead and took them to heaven. They are in heaven now.

Acts 2:27
Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
When Jesus went to hell , he brought them all out
.
Matthew 27:52-53
And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [53] And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.

And after this incidence , Jesus took them to heaven. They are in heaven now

5. What is meant by there be a "new heaven" and "new earth"

At the close of the age, when all evil has been put down. There will be a new heaven and a new earth, where we and God will dwell forever.

6. The earth was not created in vain but to be inhabited-Isaiah 45:18. Inhabited forever or for a short period of time?

Forever