₦airaland Forum

John Gill's Exposition of the Entire Bible
that they without us should not be made perfect; the Old Testament saints are perfectly justified, perfectly sanctified, and perfectly glorified; but their perfection was not by the law, which made nothing perfect, but by Christ, and through his sacrifice, blood, and righteousness; and so were not made perfect without us; since their sins and ours are expiated together by the same sacrifice; their persons and ours justified together by the same righteousness; they and we make up but one church, and general assembly; and as yet all the elect of God among the Jews are not called, and so are not perfect in themselves, or without us. Jews and Gentiles will incorporate together in the latter day; and besides, they and we shall be glorified together, in soul and body, to all eternity.

You will rather quote bible . So Your "john Gill" is word of God. What hypocrisy. Should quote other comentaries for you?
Take Adam Clarke  commentary for example.

That they without us should not be made perfect.]  Believers before the flood, after the flood, under the law, and since the law, make but one Church.  The Gospel dispensation is the last, and the Church cannot be considered as complete till the believers under all dispensations are gathered together.  As the Gospel is the last dispensation, the preceding believers cannot be consummated even in glory till the Gospel Church arrive in the heaven of heavens.

I dont even need commentaries on this. The bible is clear enough for m.

nuclearboy:
Yep, went to school - not 419 schooling though, which is why I have a job, a career, a business which produces something and adds to the economy. Where is the benefit of your CEC 419 "so called theology" studies (obviously all you have) - when you have to resort to lying, begging, cajoling people to bring the fruits of their own labor (including theft and fraud) so you can have a life. Dude, don't let me start on you and yaps oyaks and your study of what happened to Moses and whether he died or not. Pastor wey no know Bible or God!

Yeah; and there are BILLIONS of unbelievers all over the world too - are they right because they have large numbers?  Dude, wake up. I keep telling you this is not a pulpit where you can whip up excitement amongst gullible people and get no response.

Would respond to your previous post but I know Aletheia will return with the Bible, burying you in your folly and rot. 

Do you understand the bible you're quoting? All these ABC posts of yours you call theology . I know you're learning some one or two things from my posts but your pride is not allowing you to agree , but it's not an issue. With me. Christians have had discussions with Muslims without fight but you guys probably because you haven't known the holyghost , turn discussion into street fights like your senior buroda. I call it agbero lifestyle. You vomit all these insults because that's what you're made of. A good tree cannot produce corrupt fruits like you're doing.

Mat 7:18
A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither [can] a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

nuclearboy:
And you still need to remove your nose from erROR and stick it into the Bible!

I understand - Oga is looking over your shoulder and you are worried about your percentage coming sunday, ehn?

I thought you went to school. A devotional does not replace the bible but rather is an aide that helps you study bible in a disciplined manner . With the rhapsody you will go through the entire bible in one year. It is divided into three parts : Exhortation, confession. (word of faith!) and the last part is daily bible reading. 2 or 3 chapters daily. That's why millions of people world over .It is the most circulated devotional in the world. It is the most translated book world over after the holy bible.

aletheia:
Spiritual pride - very dangerous. As always you are in a haste to post and perhaps have the last word. This is not about one-upmanship.

As Childish as ever , what benefit is posting last word. Are we in competintion of who post last?

Church simply means "the call out ones". And so Israel in the wilderness is the first church. Abraham was ''called out."
Because you read the scriptures through the distorting lens of your book of er[b]ROR[/b]s; you miss the import of these

You would have turned out a more mature person spiritualy if only you would humble yourself and study the rhapsody .all these blind postings would cease.

verses:
Your problem is that you follow a very dangerous form of replacement theology which has no grounding in scripture mixed with the old gnostic gospel re-imagined for a modern generation.

All OT saints justified by faith are part of the church of Christ.

They were labelled righteous men in generic terms, but they didn't have the nature and the gift of righteousness. They were shaddows. They are not part of the church of Christ. They can't attain perfection until we get to heaven.

Heb 11:40
God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Rom 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

To be a sinner is a nature. To be righteous is a nature too. A born again is a man who has recieve the nature of God. He is not just a righteous man , he has become the essence of righteousness itself. If he makes a mistake commting a sin, that has not changed his nature from righteousness . When a Christian does something wrong , he will feel bad and repent. His fault cannot take away his nature of righteousnes because it's a gift . We didn't earn it by good works. He is not a sinner. Paul would never call a Christian a sinner. The only person that will do that is non other but MIGHTY JAMES.
The sinners are the people who have not been born again. A man is not a sinner because of what he did wrong . He was born into it through Adam. We are born into righteousnes and not by our good deed.

Rom 5:19
For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners, so by the obedience of one shall many be made righteous.

God has imputed the nature of righteousness in us. He is not counting sin against us.

2Co 5:19
To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation.

Somebody ties a bible up with some rope and and hangs it on a key. 2 people holds the key on 2 end. The Mr somebody gathers all the suspects and begins to call their names. eg. If its nucleaboy that stole so and so . let the bible turns. or if its enigma . (jocking). The bible allegedly turns or spin on that rope supernaturaly at the mention of a particular name. The problem is , it has spinned on wrong person name before. And ofcourse it has picked the culprit sometimes. The issue is not if its accurate or not, It is a demonic thing. It is demons that spin that thing.

The devil cant be trusted to say truth. Most of the time when a born again christian ignorantly gets into that kind of place, the juju will catch him as the thief because satan hates you, and he is the father of lies.

Zech. 10:2
For the idols have spoken vanity, and the diviners have seen a lie, and have told false dreams; they comfort in vain: therefore they went their way as a flock, they were troubled, because there was no shepherd.

Deut. 18:14
For these nations, which thou shalt possess, hearkened unto observers of times, and unto diviners: but as for thee, the Lord thy God hath not suffered thee so to do.

Enigma:
On the "perfection" if the WoFers were not motivated by prideful flesh and if they will only read/study a little further into Hebrews 12, they would have asked themselves whether it makes any sense that they would be the ones bringing perfection to any other saved person --- even OT saved persons.

Does Hebrews 12 not say that Jesus Christ is the perfecter (NIV though KJV uses "finisher" of our faith? Does that not also include the faith of the OT saints? Does it mean that while Christ perfects NT saints, he doesn't do it for the OT saints; instead these WoFer "new creation" is the one who perfects the faith of the OT saints? Is that not plain silly, outright daft and flesh motivated?

Hebrews 12:2 (NIV)



Yet further on this same perfection and still in the same Hebrews 12 this time verses 22-24

Are the "spirits of righteous men" made perfect divided into two i.e. those made perfect by Jesus and OT saints made perfect by the WoFer "new creation"? Is it not obvious, more sensible and even more spiritual that one thing, no, even One Person makes the spirit of ALL righteous men perfect?

WoFer, member of CEC, repent!!! Place Jesus Christ in His place. Place Him in His exalted position. Remove yourself from your falsely assumed "high chair" before the celebrant comes to tell you to go and sit at the back and not occupy the seat reserved for the guest of honour!!!

Member of CEC repent!!! Get your nose out of Rhapsody of Realities aka the book of erRoRs; do not let it steal from you the truths of the Bible, even the truths of God!

Hebrews 12:22-23
   But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [23] To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Mount sion in prophescy mostly refers to the church of Christ. OT folks are not part of the church of Christ.
What do you understand by " The church of the first born"?. IM yet to read the other posts. I hope to have your time on monday.

nuclearboy:
^^^ And Joagbaje too is consistent - in PRIDE and CONCEIT.

Though I apologised "in case" i was wrong to say so, and though there were really serious issues brought up by Enigma, Aletheia and myself, the only thing that matters to him is his "DIGNITY" and that he is not like some of "us guys"

Yes, you are not Sir, for we study God's Word to show ourselves approved and know our place in God's creation. You on the other hand, aside being deluded to thinking yourself more than a man, do not even know Moses DIED and need to wait for the book of erRORs to have a post concerning Moses death before you agree/disagree he died .

PRIDE, DELUSION, GREED, IGNORANCE and SELF-RIGHTEOUSNESS are not a part of my life so you are not like me, thank you.

The maggots you vommit only shows the nature of you spirit, you need the real salvation.

2 Tim. 2:24
And the servant of the Lord must not strive; but be gentle unto all men, apt to teach, patient,

We shall help if you allow.

The Bible says to turn the other. Cheek. If a man robs you of your jacket, give him your waistcoat too!(just kidding). The bible turn thing is a form of divination . It is demonic . There have been time it worked and at other times it points to a wrong person. Just like juju. Juju men have often accuse an innocent person of stealing in the village. But it doesn't matter.You should keep away from it.If you must hear from God , talk to the holyspirit. Or talk with your pastor especially if he is prophetic, if you must . God wants to talk to you himself. It is not the spirit of God that is behind that bible turning thing.I have witnessed it.

@ poster,
some people do go to hospitals and prisons to minister there, are you not aware. But a pastor's primary call is his sheep. A person must have faith to recieve healing. Jesus often ask if people believe he could heal them.
Mar 9:23
Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things [are] possible to him that believeth.
Those who believe in God will go to the house of God.People go to hospital because their faith is there.but many atimes they go to God when doctors have failed them.
Jesus never went to hospitals , but when the hospital people get tired and dissapointed, they go to God.
Luk 8:43
And a woman having an issue of blood twelve years, which had spent all her living upon physicians, neither could be healed of any, Came behind [him], and touched the border of his garment: and immediately her issue of blood stanched.
so read your bible well before attacking the church.

nuclearboy:
Why is it anytime truth starts to emerge, we suddenly have an influx of single/double digit posters come to support you WOF? Whats the solidarity about? I apologise if I'm wrong but Joagbaje, there's no need to keep signing in and out so it looks like there is support for false doctrines. Lies cannot become truth no matter how many people scream and bandy them about!

I don't have double IDs on Nairaland . I have enough reasons to have changed my ID but I won't , I take pride in my ID. I'm not like some of you guys. I have too much dignity . And besides. The truth is not based on how many people contributing . If it's based on that . I could get hundred people posting.

;d ;d ;d ;d ;d ;d ;d ;d ;d

Kenyan28,
leave sir John jare, the truth is clear from several posts on this thread. And the biggie is the new thread by Mabel on the healing school. Whoever read that will need no other proof on what is happening in the healing school. The Nigerian session will soon be on in June in Lagos. Anyone that need a real healing school go. O pari!

@jaffi,
was it the book or the tv programme.

nuclearboy:
Joagbaje:

Clicked reply only to see this your recent post. Did you ever consider that those alluded to by Jesus as being in the kingdom of heaven might "be already there" and that we AND John the Baptist will join them at the same time - after judgement? Your penchant for assuming you are right is disturbing

I dont know if i fully got your points clear. But about the kingdom of heaven, This is one of the reason i didnt want to go into it because few occasions the have been interchangably used but if compared with body of truth , you will understand there is difference.

Back to my post:
I'm searching for a way to not sound scornful or judgemental for I susupect thats what you see. However, I'm only finding it ridiculous that someone with your diction and communication skills can believe this "travesty" of reason. It makes me believe you have a vested interest  which usually translate to "that is where your wealth is stored up".

You say you cannot speak for any other man. Then you say we could ask about your pastor! Is he not a man? And when did you become God to know his motives and mind?

This is Simple , I know what truth pastor Chris teaches, So doctrinal wise , i may be able to explain or clarify some things of course I may not know his motives except the ones he explains in his teachings.

You say Liardon is no longer homosexual "IF" he has asked God for forgiveness. Please does this apply to him continuing in the "kingdom of homosexuality"? BTW, did you ever consider that for all we know, he may have been involved with this all the while he wrote "God's Generals". Do you believe in the end justifying the means at any cost?

I dont know what you mean by "continuing in the kingdom of homosexuality" Does anything like that exist?

Did you re-consider before stating openly that Christians are re-created in their spirits and demonic possession etc is in the body or mind? Do you realise that means Robert Liardon's Spirit is for Heaven whist body etc is condemned? Why stop sin then, Pastor, since all of that is physical and it is only the spirit that matters? I told you, this is not the pulpit. And now we see why Ikeja love-peddlers enjoy CE. No conviction of sin, just dancing, merriment and rejoicing in sinfulness.

You easily jump into conclussion sometimes. What you wrote did not show you understood my post at all. Who says all is physical. I said as a man matures , he grows out of these sins and mistake. stop twisting my post. please read the 3 more times without your biases. Because youare beginning to fill up what i didnt say. I even said certain sins are more deadly than homosexuality. So why are you giving the impression im encouraging people to sin.

I never attacked Robert Liardon. Sad story and I pray he's truly found God again - but have you considered the level of deceit before he was found out? If he wasn't found out, you'd be hammering it at us that he is a "god". I just want you to realise the same can apply to Oyakilome tomorrow. He's just a man! Its you guys that say "No, we are clean and gods". Thats why that was thrown before you!

Either Robert sinned or not , he is still a Child of God. Are you a child of God? havent you sinned? So why are you on the case of another.

And here you say again that sin doesn;t make a Christian a sinner! What then makes him a sinner? Was the Bible lying when it said "Let God be true and every man a Liar"? Abi liars are righteous? What are you doing, sir? Can't you see this is delusion trying to make yourself what you are not?

It is not a man's wrong doing that made him a sinner. But Adam's. Thesame way, It is not a man's good works that get him saved or justified but Christ (2nd Adam)

Finally, the "dead in Christ shall rise first". True, it says so! But let me ask you sir, was it Moses' dead body and Elijah's dead body that appeared at the transfiguration? Are they dead or in Glory NOW? Categorical sweeping declarations are what we know what we call "WOFers" for. Most are misleading is the problem and they affect God's children.

Do you know what you're doing? exactly what the RCC did when it restricted access to the Bible for centuries and rather, preferred to issue its own canons and doctrines. You are interpreting God's Word. There is danger in that for the Word says "the scripture is not for any PRIVATE interpretation".

Elijah was caught up bodily to heaven but for Moses, Their had been series of debate by bible scholars if he died,or was caught up to heaven like Elijah, Some also alleged that it was his spirit satan came for and not his body and that he was taken to heaven . Well whatever the case we no that there is mystery about Moses death. I dont have details on this maybe i will further study.

BTW, I apologise for infering you said Moses was slated for Hellfire. But except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of " ". Thats why I basically helped you finish what you started but now have come to see as a travesty!

My advise is , Just discuss topic and avoid insults.

Ephes. 4:26
   Be ye angry, and sin not:  

@ Donnie .

donnie:
If you are not sure of your own salvation now, then like Kunle, you too are lost!

They are simply religious people who thought they knew something. You have relly tried , All these just reveal we have much work to do in the teaching of the truth

Enigma,
I didint write the bible , Read it for yourself. and stop asking funny question

Hebrews 11:39-40
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that[b] they without us should not be made perfect[/b].

Matthew 11:11
Verily I say unto you, Among them that are born of women there hath not risen a greater than John the Baptist: notwithstanding[b] he that is least in the kingdom of heaven is greater than he.[/b]

Read my recent posts again carefully . Dont be in a rush to write. Dont make me feel im wasting my time.

nuclearboy:
Pastor Joagbaje:

Of course I sin and make mistakes and FYI, I do not see them as small mistakes. And I know how it is that I feel when my lusts get the better of my inner desire for God. It is you that claims you are righteous and not a sinner calling God liar when His Word says let God be true and all men liars. You it was that said Moses wasn't born again and so is subject to hellfire and that Robert Liardon is to be believed because he's born-again and thus by inference from your former definition, is sinless, righteous and teaching Moses, Enoch, Elijah, Elisha and the angels of God what righteousness is. I wonder what righteousness can be found in his bung-hole!

Its either you dont understand me or you deliberately misquote me. I never said Moses was subject to hell fire. It is not fair when we twist post this way. Of course , OT folks were not born again. Jesus was the first man to be born of God and the born again Christians came after him. The OT folks were saved but they didnt have this life of God in them. That was why the holy spirit could dwell in them . They didnt have the union we have in christ . We have the divine nature of God in us which they could not recieve. It is a new thing to them . God kept it secret.Isreal should have receieved it but it came to the gentiles at the rejection of Christ. We are in Christ kingdom now. Its like a political party that is campaingning. Our Kingdom will fully manifest physically, at the millenial reign of christ.

1 Thes. 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the[b] dead in Christ shall rise first[/b]:

Why is it that only the dead in christ that will rise first. This is the kingdom of heaven headed by Christ. The rest of the righteous dead have not entered this kingdom yet . even though they are in the Jingdom of God. Their own will take place after our 1,000 years reign physically ont his earth. that is when the rest of the dead will rise.

Rev. 20:5
But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

That is the reason for two judgements. Theres is a judgement seat of Christ and the white throne judgement. The Judgmene seat of Christ is the first one after rapture. It is stricltly for those who are in his kigdom of heaven ( Christians only) where Jesus judge usaccording to our works on this earth. Those of us that have done well will recieve crown of rulership and we will reign with him as administrators and kings in his political government on the earth for 1,000 years

Romans 14:10
But why dost thou judge thy brother? or why dost thou set at nought thy brother? for we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Ater the 1,000 years or millenial reign Jesus will deliver the kingdom to God, After we have put down all rebellion in the final battle against evil. The kingdom of christ or the kingdom of heaven will be divered into the kingdom of God. This is where the OT folks Joins us.God will reign over all.

The finall resurrection will take place.and the final judgement by God himself will take place.

Rev. 20:11-21:1
And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. [12] And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. [13] And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. [14] And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death. [15] And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
[21:1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.


So you can see , there is distinction between us and OT folks , we dont even have thesame resurrection to start with.There are different orders, according to level of superiority. Christ first , we second , then others in different generations.
1 Cor. 15:21-24
For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead. [22] For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. [23] But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. [24] Then cometh the end, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

@ Enigma

THE FORCE OF RIGHTEOUSNESS
The fact that a Christian sin doesnt make him a sinner. it does not change his nature and hasnt lost his salvation. He is still the righteousness of God despite his mistakes.

Psalm 32:2
Blessed is the man unto whom the Lord imputeth not iniquity, and in whose spirit there is no guile.

Sin of a Christian does not make God deny him as a father, rather God wants to get him out of the mess.The blood of Jesus paid for sin . past ,present and future.

Because the spirit of God is in us, when we do wrong , our conscience condemn us , we repent and move on. That is why a Christian need strong meat. so that he can grow to maturity and recognise his ddominion over sin. The more he grows , the less mistakes he makes. When he realises that he is one spirit with Christ. God Is Love. I am love also. love is the height of all spirituall knowledge. The more i medidtate on it , the more i walk in love. It becomes dificult for me to hate, steal, cheat , criticise and gossip etc. as i fellowship with God. I get more transformed.

1 John 1:7
But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.

That is why we go to church , that is reason for devotional daily. we renew our minds . As we behold scriptures , we are changed
.
2 Cor. 3:18
But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, even as by the Spirit of the Lord.

Enigma:
Following my last post of quotations above (I've chosen to break the last post into two):


Thus (according to you Pasiitor Joagbaje):

1. When a person confesses Christ by faith he is instantaneously born again.

2. The person is born and recreated in his spirit that moment too.

3. This your "born again recreated/new creation person" is too big and superior to be praying the Lord's prayer!

4. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is no longer a sinner; the old nature of sin is taken away; there is nothing he can do that can make him a sinner

5. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is greater than all the Old Testament folk. He is greater than Adam, Moses, Elijah, John the baptist.

6. This your "born again new creation/recreated person" is the one who will bring perfection to Moses and all!

7. The early apostles are actually learning from this your "born again new creation/recreated person"!

8. The patriarchs of old are watching from the grandstand and learning from this your "born again new creation/recreated person".

You are correct Thats what the bible says , except for your over exegerations.

The problem: below are three persons who meet your criteria of "born again new creation/recreated person" and obviously had/have your respect.

A. Roberts Liardon: you brought up his name and we pointed to his admitted homosexual affair and that he was "pastoring" a WoF "church at the time?

B. Ted Haggard: WoF very big even top shot who admitted homosexual affair and drug use

C. Paul Crouch: WoF top-shot and head of TBN who paid $425,000 (presumably from donations by his mugs "partners" to keep an alleged homosexual partner quiet.

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" from whom the patriarchs are learning.

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" greater than Moses o, Elijah o, Adam o, Abraham o, John the baptist o

These are examples of the "born again new creation/recreated person" who will bring perfection to Moses and all!

Do you want to think about your WoF theology again. Perhaps WoF theology might just be a whole load of nonsense as we have been telling you?

I dont what you mean by they having my respect. I cant speak for another man. I dont know them. i.e what they believe.

Galatians 6:5
For every man shall bear his own burden.

You may ask me about me or my pastor and that is if theres is any need of that .
There is no such thing as Wof doctrines. Lets deal with topics according to scritures. Word of faith is the confession of faith through our mouth. whoever doesnt understand that is a baby christian .

Romans 10:8
But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach;

Word of faith simply has to do with power of our spoken words. It is funny how you guys labbel anything you dont understand or agree with as wof doctrine. its funny!

Im not aware of these unfounded allegations against these people and I dont think i need to start searching on them . I am not them. We shouldnt be picking holes in christian lives , You have your own flaws , sin is sin. Malice and unforgiveness are more deadly than fornication and homosexuality. Spiritual sins are deadlier that the physical ones. So lets discuss issues that edify.

THIS ROBERT LIARDON THING

1 Cor. 13:6
Rejoiceth not in iniquity, but rejoiceth in the truth;

I wonder why it is that some of us rejoice at the failures or fall of other christians.

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

A Christian may suffer certain attacks, That doesnt make him a sinner. Others ought to help him and not to destroy him. And whatever his fault is has nothing to do with The move of God in his life. There is no sin God cant forgive a christian. If he acknowledge his error and repented, he is forgiven as though he never sinned.

1 John 1:9
If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

The question is : Did Liardon acknowledge his sin ? Yes Is Liardon still into homosextuality? No . So what business has any body to raise up issues God has forgotten?

Romans 14:4
Who art thou that judgest another man's servant? to his own master he standeth or falleth. Yea, he shall be holden up: for God is able to make him stand.

Im also aware from my google that the man went to the extent of taking break from his ministry and submitting himself for counselling.

Here is one of the articles.

Pentecostal dynamo Roberts Liardon preached at his church after three months of counseling following a gay sexual affair with the church's youth pastor. The 36-year-old founder of the Embassy Christian Center in Irvine, California, told his congregation: "I am still working with my counseling." Most letters on the matter, printed in Charisma magazine, are supportive of Liardon. For example, one reader writes: "Roberts has done a great work for the Lord. That is why the warfare against him is so fierce." Another writes: "I have always loved and admired Roberts Liardon, and I still do. , I believe he is making things right with God." Another writes: "We all have areas of the flesh to deal with. It strengthens me to see how Liardon is willing to deal with his problems."
[/qoute]

Enigma:
Pasiitor Joagbaje, one further question (for now) based on your quote above and especially the highlighted.

So this your own "born again new creation/recreated person" can be invaded by demons? Despite the fact that his own spirit has been recreated?

Na waa for him o!

Demonic Oppression and Obssesion takes place in the body or in the mind, Demonic posession takes place in the spirit. A christian is recreated in his spirit. Satan cant have posession of his spirit because Christ dwells there.
Demons dont jump on a christian , but the christian can create room for them by sin.

Ephes. 4:27
Neither give place to the devil.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober, be vigilant; because your adversary the devil, as a roaring lion, walketh about, seeking whom he may devour:

nuclearboy:
^^ And that is my problem with shifting goal posts etc.

Ive not been shifting goal post at all . My posts have maintain a consistency. Except if I havent clarified some issues well enough

Robert Liardon is born again, spirit filled, kingdom empowered. A fellow heir (infact same) as Jesus Christ, a "god" having dominion over all things especially the financial commitments of his congregation. Sinless (so much so he cannot be UNrighteous).
B U T tiny meagre "man doing man" horrible demons (which Joagbaje and every other sinless Christian including Lawrence Agaba can cast out) invaded and took over his life (the life of Jesus's mate ) in effect, took over the life of Jesus, seeing as Jesus is same as "WOFers" who have faith! ? I suppose that means if Jesus takes a nap or turns His back, "Legion would pounce into Him. ???

I will appreciate if a new thread is opened for the issues youre raising up. I didint say demons can just jump on a christian. I was responding to Enigma,.Who said that the man openly declared himself Gay. There is difference between falling into sin and living in sin. If A christian will say "Hey, i'm gay" or "I am born a gay " He is definately invaded by demons. No child off God would talk that way.A christian has dominion over demons. But if he engages himself in certain activities and works of flesh , he may have himself opened to devils. There is difference between Demonic oppression , obsession and possesion. A christian can not be possesed of demons in his spirit because Christ dwells in his spirit. but he could have external attack in his thought realm . or his body which he an still deal with by himself or with a little help.

If Robert Liardon has asked God for forgiveness., He is no longer a homosexual, period!. But if he continues and jjustifies his action as normal , then there is a reason for concern.

Your problem is the grand pulpit which has allowed you preach "BShit" unhindered and unchallenged since the "mugus" just sit and are encouraged not to listen but to cheer and dance. Well, this is not a pulpit and here, you deal with "God renewed minds", not "CEC controlled mumus". It would be well you read all, sit down and decide to return to God.

You could call Sons of God "mumus" It only reveals your shallow understanding of truth.

Matthew 5:22
But I say unto you, That whosoever is angry with his brother without a cause shall be in danger of the judgment: and whosoever shall say to his brother, Raca, shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, Thou fool, shall be in danger of hell fire.

The article on the child molestor didnt show that he was Jehovahs witness

Nuclearboy,
Dont you make mistakes, dont you sin? except you call the bible a lie.maybe yours is" small sins". The blasphemy and mockery against men of God on nairaland is enough sin!Sin is sin my friend. So dont be too judgemental.

1 John 1:8-2:1
If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
[2:1] My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous:

Galatians 6:1
Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.

Enigma,
The only reason why We have not been able to admire the difference between the new creation and others is because we have not fully manifested what we really are in Christ, and that is the message the church need today to prepare them for the coming of Christ. he is coming for a full grown Church and not a baby church. It is the growth and maturity of the church that will qualified the church for the rapture.As we grow into the FULLNESS of Christ and be filled with the FULLNESS of God.

Ephes. 5:27
That he might present it to himself a glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing; but that it should be holy and without blemish.

Ephes. 3:19
And to know the love of Christ, which passeth knowledge, that ye might be filled with all the fulness of God.

Robert Liardon may have his short comings, I dont have a first hand information on this, But there is no Sin a christian commits that will make him cease to be a christian. If the man really commit homosexuality, he needs help. No child of God love to live in sin, But his sin did not stop him from being a child of God and , does not stop him from being a vessel of God. Except if he refuse to repent as you said he openly declared for homosexuality which I find hard to believe but if its true, his life must have been invaded by demons, That does not negate any of the works he had before. Solomon went into the sin of Idolatory,but we still read his books of proverbs today. We dont glory in a man's fall. Its a kindom of love. If God is still using a man, if God has not given up in a man , who are we to condemn him.

aletheia:
By their fruits you shall know them. Robert Liardon? Flaming homosexual.

Enigma:
Pas[b]i[/b]tor Joagbajeeeeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!!!

Let us leave aside the issue of who wins an argument or not; this your post is nonsense and I honestly expected you to know better. So now you resort not just to twisting the Bible but twisting and even changing the words of Jesus Himself!!!! You see what Word of Faith theology does for you? Instead of accepting the truths of the Bible, you devise your own doctrines with all sorts of gymnastics, pussyfooting and faffing about!

OK, a simple question for you: what did the blood of Jesus or the death of Jesus do for Old Testament saints like Abraham?

PS I see you referring to Roberts Liardon; I hope you realise that Liardon has no credibility after that homosexual affair with his "Worship Director" (or someone like that) and other members of his then church?

I dont know about Liadon's sexuality . If the allegation is true, it still has nothing to do with the facts presented in the book. The book is more of documentaries of lives of others. You dont judge a man by his mistakes either, excepts if his beliefs has changed. No child of God love to sin. If he fell ,he should be helped and not to be destroyed by us, I pray a lot for ministers of God. So I dont rejoice over evil report.

The blood of Jesus has paid the price for the sin of the word. The OT folks now have been redeemed by the blood of the lamb.
There is difference between redemption and the new creation.Jesus did not need to rise for redemption to take place. His death on the cross was enough to pay for mans sin. The new creation is something else, When Jesus rose from the dead , He made it possible for us to recieve the life of God. OT folks have not attain this.

Romans 11:7
What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded

They are learning from us of How God can dwell in a man.

Ephes. 3:10
To the intent that now unto the principalities and powers in heavenly places might be known by the church the manifold wisdom of God,

1 Peter 1:12
Unto whom it was revealed, that not unto themselves, but unto us they did minister the things, which are now reported unto you by them that have preached the gospel unto you with the Holy Ghost sent down from heaven; which things the angels desire to look into.

Hebrews 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

Until we get to heaven , they cant partake yet of what we have in Christ.

Hebrews 11:39-40
And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Nuclearboy.
Benny Hinn did not mentor pastor Chris. Pastor Chris has been preaching from childhood, He started his own ministry since the 80's He he grew up from a family of pastors he's. One of his grand fathers brought Assemblies of God into nigeria.
I believe in the Word of God as word of faith. But I dont believe in word of faith movement .
If you want to know about these men you mentioned, God and read their books. Or let me recomend a quick one "God's Generals" by robert Liardon. You read about their lives. You cant just read a one sided account from a critic and come to conclusion, People criticised Jesus too.They even paid others to lie against him.

Dont criticise what you dont understand, but rather find the truth for yourself. Saul of Tarsus was very sure he was fighting a just cause. Why dont you think youre just doin thesame.
A man may be annointed to heal the sick , but that does not necessary get him healed. The annointing upon a man is for others. Elsha healed the sick and raised the dead, but how did he die ?. He died of sickness. A man lives by his faith, So when did you become accuser of brethren? They might have had short comings in their faith but the body of Christ is growing. More knowledge is comming to light now. at least I know I cannot have cancer! I know too much to fall victim of sickness. I have learn to deal with the enemy. I have authoroty over sickness and death. according to the words of Christ. They walked in the light they had , but there is greater light now. and we are still growing to become all that God has ordained us to be in Christ. "The fullness of God"

Ephes. 4:13
Till we all come in the unity of the faith, and of the knowledge of the Son of God, unto a perfect man, unto the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ: But speaking the truth in love, may grow up into him in all things, which is the head, even Christ:

Mark 16:17-18
And these signs shall follow them that believe; In my name shall they cast out devils; they shall speak with new tongues; [18] They shall take up serpents; and if they drink any deadly thing, it shall not hurt them; they shall lay hands on the sick, and they shall recover.

Bigbashiru,
Every body's name is already in the book of life, It is only when a man dies without salvation , that God will remove his name from the book.

God has given man a will power.
2 Peter 3:9
The Lord is not slack concerning his promise, as some men count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

1 Tim. 2:3-4 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Jesus is not angel michael, It is one of the misconceptions of Jehovah witness, based on wrong interpretation of certain scriptures.
Daniel 10:21
But I will shew thee that which is noted in the scripture of truth: and there is none that holdeth with me in these things, but[b] Michael your prince.[/b]

Just like satan has certain beings as principalities over nations ,lands and families.
God has certain angels with certain responsibitities over lands,families and individuals. The bible talks about a demonic prince of Persia who is a demonic being over the kingdom of persia.
Daniel 10:20
Then said he, Knowest thou wherefore I come unto thee? and now will I return to fight with the[b] prince of Persia[/b]: and when I am gone forth, lo, the prince of Grecia shall come.

Thesame way,Michael was the angelic prince over the nation of Israel
[color]
Daniel 12:1
And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book. [/color]

.In the book of revelation we could see how God attached certain angels to certain churches.
And when God sends a mean , he sends an angel also.

Genesis 24:40
And he said unto me, The Lord, before whom I walk, will send his angel with thee, and prosper thy way; and thou shalt take a wife for my son of my kindred, and of my father's house:
Exodus 23:20
Behold, I send an Angel before thee, to keep thee in the way, and to bring thee into the place which I have prepared.

Exodus 23:23
For mine Angel shall go before thee, and bring thee in unto the Amorites, and the Hittites, and the Perizzites, and the Canaanites, and the Hivites, and the Jebusites: and I will cut them off.

Another scripture that they may quote is 1 thessalonians

1 Thes. 4:16
For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

And the question is ; "Why will he use the voice of angel if he is not the angel"?
Jesus had said already thAT ANGELS WOULD BE INVOLVED IN THE HARVEST OF SOULD WHEN THE LORD COMES. iT IS NO jESUS THAT WILL BE BLOWING TRUMPET BUT HIS ANGELS THAT ARE COMING WITH HIM.

Matthew 24:31
And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

2 Thes. 1:7
And to you who are troubled rest with us, when the Lord Jesus shall be revealed from heaven with his mighty angels,

image123,
Its like i got carried away with the topic with bias. I thought i read the first post. I just read it now. sorry jare,

Image123:
^I don't see anyone on this thread talking about confessing sins except you. Even the atheist OP wrote about professing Jesus as saviour, already. Being controversial is not an healthy hobby

So whats death bed confession about. confessing what?