₦airaland Forum

InesQor:
@Joagbaje: Jesus did not "collect money" from "many people". People donated in kind, and probably in cash as well (see Judas). Jesus was never seen to have had to tell people to give him money, the way it's done today, or the way the OP said it happened in Holland. He NEVER even insinuated it or hinted at people. They gave as they willed.

At least someone with little honesty is talking. Did the OP say they forced anybody?, Every giving in Gods house is voluntary, no pastor has right to force anybody, The Op obviously didnt give, because givers dont criticise giving.

davidylan:
there is no point jo . . . u need to be born again.

of course there is no point in your blind argument, Pls pls shut the door behind you, thanks,

, NEXT PERSON PLs,

@tpia

tpia.:
where in this verse does it say Jesus received physical cash?

mary and martha also ministered to him of their substance. Please check the story.

Jesus was a carpenter and as such had the skills he needed to work for a living.

You are right , they gave him eba and fufu inside the offering bag!

John 12:6
   This he said, not that he cared for the poor; but because he was a thief, and had the bag, and bare what was put therein.

I bet Judas carried refridgerator arround to warm the soup.

Jesus was a carpenter and as such had the skills he needed to work for a living.

Every Jewish boy is trained in a skill, but kindly show me where Jesus did carpentry work for a living as a minister, And how justified he would be , stopping his disciples from labour market to follow him to capentry shop!!. Why are you guys so religious, and cant just take scriptures for what it says. Show me  , Im waiting.

@davidylan

davidylan:
My dear brother, you are awfully deluded. Where did you read that Christ hired His boats by chatter? Did He not have to borrow from Peter several times?

You said Christ "maintained" 12 men and their families? Really? Where and when did you read this? Why didnt they use part of their donations to feed 5000 instead of relying on 2 loaves and 2 fishes? Surely they had enough to buy bread right? Why didnt they have money to pay their taxes rather than looking for coin in the mouth of a fish?

You quoted John 7:12 but you forgot to read from chapter 6 to realise the issue they were discussing there wasnt money but His words and miracles right?

You are an ignorant man ,dont run away, come back and explain yourself. Jesus only hired peter's boat before his conversion, after conversion , they left all.

Mark 10:28
   Then Peter began to say unto him, Lo, we have left all, and have followed thee.

You are the one reading your deluded religiousity into scriptures.

Kindly explain this scripture for me .

Luke 8:2-3
   And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, [3] And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

The despicable use of the gospel to falsely needle the poor of their money is sad.

Yes oo , EFCC is needed to investigate Jesus to come back and give account of those finnacial matters!!!

@tpia

tpia.:
@ joagbaje
easy there.the only recorded instance i know of where Jesus collected money was when he got it from a fish, and used it to pay his taxes.if you know of any other example plz share.havent gone over the entire thread yet.

Jesus collected money from several people. Where did he get money to hire by chatter, ship,boats and maintain 12 hefty adults and thier families. where was Judas getting money to steal?

Luke 8:2-3
And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, [3] And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

Those who attack churches over finances dont know the scriptures. The man collected MANEEY!! so tey some ignorant nairalanders called him dupe.!!

John 7:12 (living bible)
There was a lot of discussion about him among the crowds.Some said, "He's a wonderful man," while others said, "No, he's duping the public."

JeSoul:
I'm not sure why Ganjaseed is being criticized.

The fella did some good ol' fashioned detective work by going to ground zero and investigating for himself. Instead of taking popular opinion from faceless posts on the internet he went to verify for himself. This is how journalism awards are earned and won. Ganja abeg kudos jare.

---

Did Jesus (or any of the apostles for that matter) establish "different arms" of ministry? so that they needed to collect more and more money from people? No.
Fantastic. Now all you have to do is show us just one verse from the bible where "Jesus collected money from several people". Just one verse will suffice.
Amen. No christian will disagree with that.

What a shame, doing dectective work to ridicle the house of God. And you guys are applauding such.

Romans 1:32
Who knowing the judgment of God, that they which commit such things are worthy of death, not only do the same, but have pleasure in them that do them.

They should have caught the false brethren and beat the demon out of him! I trust Paul , After suffering fro false brethren like this, If he catch you??.

Galatians 2:4-5
And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: [5] To whom we gave place by subjection, no, not for an hour; that the truth of the gospel might continue with you.

God orderd killings in the old testament but things have Changed since Jesus came , He wont demand killings again.
2 Peter 3:9
not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

uchkochi:
All u see on Emmanuel T.v(Tb Joshua station) is organized.Somebody i know went there and said there is more death in the church than healing.He also said u are not allowed to video the service with your phone otherwise it will be destroyed.

Tb Joshua is a prophet no doubt but an Evil prophet from the devil.A man that pastors with fear is of the devil.All the evil prophecies are organized from hell so as to make people believe him but guess what his time is up and Heaven is exposing him faster than can be imagined in Jesus Name. A true man of God stands in the gap.Tb Joshua is not from God.Beware ask members of his church they are all bewitched,to confirm why not go there yourself,don't mind what u see on TV its organized.Beware let the Holy spirit guide you and not 'emmanuel Television'.Remain blessed

2348052773865

Somebody told you, Why dont you go yourself, supposing he had lied to you or pass inacurate information. Why do you take pleasure in criticism. Focus on your own. Leave Tb joshua for Jesus , if he is fake, Jesus knows what to do , he wont last.

Matthew 13:24-30
Another parable put he forth unto them, saying, The kingdom of heaven is likened unto a man which sowed good seed in his field: [25] But while men slept, his enemy came and sowed tares among the wheat, and went his way. [26] But when the blade was sprung up, and brought forth fruit, then appeared the tares also. [27] So the servants of the householder came and said unto him, Sir, didst not thou sow good seed in thy field? from whence then hath it tares? [28] He said unto them, An enemy hath done this. The servants said unto him, Wilt thou then that we go and gather them up? [29] But he said, Nay; lest while ye gather up the tares, ye root up also the wheat with them. [30] Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn.

ezego_1:
Na wa o. As all these pastors chop all these Christians money for Niger. None of them fit show face for that side to offer simple support and solidarity. I pity all of una wey dey throwe una money to these people o, na only where them dey share money them dey, when wahala show face never. RCCG, Chris Oyakilome etc wat a farce

How do you know they are not doing anything. Must they announce on tv? Most denominations sends relieve to their members there each time situations like this comes, You what have you done?

alexleo:
God bless you Girl846. This is one of the main message that christ wants us to preach but so sad that most churches especially the new generation churches are not giving the message of rapture and eternity to the congregation. Like I said, nigerians are desperados when it comes to chasing money. thats why you see so many churches and prayer houses springing up here and there just to siphon money from people's pocket in God's name. I am not against prosperity in christ but the main thing is the message of salvation, message that will make people to reflect on where they will spend eternity. Most of this money- conscious pastors have neglected this major responsibilties and many of their members are dying without TRULY being born again and going to hell. Too bad. weather the world believe it or not, the second coming of Jesus is very much at hand. The signs are there already.

Bros why are you hijacking her post for another thing. Is God against prosperity.

Romans 8:32
He that spared not his own Son, but delivered him up for us all, how shall he not with him also freely give us all things?

Christianity is not a race to heaven. If you are born again, you are already a heavenly being. You dont need to suffer trying to make heaven.

Jesus also had to wait for 30 years in preparation for a ministry of 3 years.

Hebrews 6:12
That ye be not slothful, but followers of them who through faith and patience inherit the promises.

Ganjaseed:
I have been attending CEC for the past 6 months now, If i sum up what i have seen and experience there is no difference from what i have heard of the said church so far.

I am in Holland and i attend the Amsterdam branch, let me point out some few things i have seen, though i was not there to spy, but some how i have been following the criticism of the church and the man of God himself and here is my experience so far.

The first day of attendance was great I was well received and all that and i fell in love immediately with the church and i started going there regularly. But along the line I Begin to see things which i could not reconcile with. Much emphasis is not laid on tithe and offering because of this I was beginning to say why the financial criticism ? before long it downed on me that they have their own style which other churches have not discovered yet on how to raise fund.

1. Offering for LOVEWORLD
2. Partnership offering
3. Rapsody of reality offering
3. Tithe
4. Normal church offering

All these offering is every sunday collection from members with a special envelop.

So whats the big deal about financial partnership? are you not ashame to bring your greed to the public. How would you expect the ministry to run the different arm such as internet ministry, Free Rhapsody, Loveworld TV. Do you know how many billion the devil is using today to sponsor evil on the media. Partnership is biblical. Jesus collected money from several people for his ministry. We must continually give for works of ministry.

Luke 8:2-3
And certain women, which had been healed of evil spirits and infirmities, Mary called Magdalene, out of whom went seven devils, [3] And Joanna the wife of Chuza Herod's steward, and Susanna, and many others, which ministered unto him of their substance.

though i was not there to spy,

You are more than a spy. you are a "false brethren". If you can ridicle a church you attend , publicly. what are you still doing there? If you dont belive in what they do , go somewhere esle.

The pastor of the church has a very subtile way of presenting prosperity message, you must know the Bible not to fall a victim of that. hear this!!!!
"Jesus was motivated to raise Lazarus from the dead because the sister of Lazarus (Mary) blessed Jesus with a very expensive alabaster box oil" [/b]Meaning the woman gave a gift to Jesus and [b]Jesus in return raised her brother from the dead. Pls read John 11:1---end

It is not a new thing on nairaland how words of a pastor are manipulated to mean what he didnt say.Just like the guy that said pastor chris cut his hand deliberately to practice "superhuman life". I have never heard him teach that nonesence. No pastor will say jesus raised lazarus in return for a perfume! so what about the devils hesus cast from her what did she pay?. jesus raised lazarus because he loved him thats what pastor chris will tell you.

John 11:5
Now Jesus loved Martha, and her sister, and Lazarus.

John 11:35-36
Jesus wept. [36] Then said the Jews, Behold how he loved him!

On the thanks given day last year this same man make us believe that he gave 10,000 euro as a thanksgiving offering that the year before he gave 5000 and next year he planned to give 20000. And to demonstrate this he sent for the financial secretary to bring his own thanksgiving envelop to the front of the church and it was a big envelop actually wether the said money was there or not we do not know. This strategy is a professional one.

If he said he gave , take it that he gave, Why did you believe otherwise, Every pastor is a giver,You feel the amount he mentioned is too big to have been given. others have given far more and they have testimonies. Mark you The pastor himself is a business man , he has a job and he gives as he expect others to give.

I do not need to talk about the lifestyle of the members of the church because am not to judge, but i noticed one thing that the congregation do not know the Bible but rather prefer Rhapsody of reality, so they can be told anything and it will be accepted without finding out if its true.

It is a teaching ministry, and every members are scholars of the bible, Rhapsody does not replace the bible. It is a devotional and it has a bible reading calender for the year , if you follow it daily .in one year you would have read the entire bible. You are not a good liar.

Pastor Chris wife will soon come to Holland, guess what? every church member should contribute 15 euro each for her visitation because they plan to take her out in limo and in choice Hotel,

I thought you guys said they are divorced , whats she doing arround?. ( joking) Why should it be an issue for you, did they force you? Where should they have lodged her ? Ajegunle guest house? We ought to honour men of God, ,more so she is incharge of those churches. The bible commands to esteem them.

1 Thes. 5:12-13
And we beseech you, brethren, to know them which labour among you, and are over you in the Lord, and admonish you; [13] And to esteem them very highly in love for their work's sake. And be at peace among yourselves.

the way this contribution was announced is what you do not want to hear. 16 couple where supposed to be marring that same day this announcement was made, these couple standing behind the pastor waiting to kiss their bride and groom but the announcement of Pastor Anita's coming overshadow everything and the pastor eventually forgot to tell them to kiss their bride until the service was over.

Weldone everything is about money to you guys. Shey they kissed sha .

I will try and post the wedding clip and still inform everybody where to watch it. More to come .

Keep them to yourself!!

though i was not there to spy,

InesQor:
You're welcome, viaro. Joagbaje's post consists of[b] two repetitions, though[/b]. It's not really that long.

Three repetitions, It was a mistake, I sent it yesterday but my network gave challenge, I saved and pasted ,I didnt know i triplicated

viaro:
No worries, for however 'appropriately' you may have tried to express it, your ideas are still skewed and do not point to God's Word.

This is what you had stated:
First, what are the "laws" God has set in the 'universe' that would necessitate His submitting His omnipotence to the rules He has set?

I do not want to confuse between 'laws of the universe' in either - (a) the scientific sense, or (b) the [url=http://members.optusnet.com.au/~acceptance/UnderstandingSpirituality/Spirituality%20Files/LawsoftheUniverse.htm]religio-spirituality sense[/url]. However, in whatever sense you might have meant it, what are those 'laws' of the universe that are so baronial as that God would have to "submit His omnipotence" to them?

Now, if by 'laws of the universe' you now narrow them down to 'the rules of justice he set on the earth', how do you reconcile both statements? Does God actually "submit" His omnipotence to rules He set on earth? Is the earth now the same as the 'universe' that your reductionism has to bring God's omnipotence over all things down to what you want to argue on earth?

You see, it is now clear with each passing day that the WOF doctrines you espouse are sailing further and farther away from God's Word. It seems the latest in your posts is to find new ways for old tales of WOF doctrines to make God {who upholds all things by the word of His power} to now be subservient to whatever puny man dictates on earth - a tiny speck in a vast universe.

Stop hiding behind wof doctrines , deal with me as a person by the word.
There are several laws of God in the universe and in his dealings with man. From the laws of sowing and reaping , the law of justice, law of nature, reproduction to the law of sin and death, the law of the spirit of life, the law of faith etc.

God submits his omnipotence to this laws and his omniscience if I may say. This is my personal view from the word. For example , God in his omniscience should not have been surprised at the evil in the world in the days of Noah ,

Genesis 6:5-6
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6] And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Why should an omniscience God be taken by surprises, why should he regret creating man, didnt he know everything, didnt he know what they would do? In his omniscience he does but in his dealing with man he does not. but we know he does , but that how he relates in mans understanding , We should not try to probe into matters too high for us.

Deut. 29:29
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.


There are beings in the spiritual realm. principalities that are watching over the earth and giving reports to God. The bible call them watchers. they give report to God. and by there decree. God would know if the cup of iniquity of a man or a nation is full for judgement.

Daniel 4:17
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Daniel 4:13
I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Daniel 4:23
And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

God didnt allow Israel to destroy the amorites because there cup of iniquity was not yet full according to the watchers.

Genesis 15:16
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

They cried to God also concerning the iniquity of soddom and gommorah

Genesis 18:20-21
And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [21] I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Does the God that knows everything require a watcher as reporter?

We should deal with God according to his dealings in our different dispensation. If you running this race of omnicience of God , there will be collision with other spiritual laws. somebody will soon enter the error of predestination

viaro:
No worries, for however 'appropriately' you may have tried to express it, your ideas are still skewed and do not point to God's Word.

This is what you had stated:
First, what are the "laws" God has set in the 'universe' that would necessitate His submitting His omnipotence to the rules He has set?

I do not want to confuse between 'laws of the universe' in either - (a) the scientific sense, or (b) the [url=http://members.optusnet.com.au/~acceptance/UnderstandingSpirituality/Spirituality%20Files/LawsoftheUniverse.htm]religio-spirituality sense[/url]. However, in whatever sense you might have meant it, what are those 'laws' of the universe that are so baronial as that God would have to "submit His omnipotence" to them?

Now, if by 'laws of the universe' you now narrow them down to 'the rules of justice he set on the earth', how do you reconcile both statements? Does God actually "submit" His omnipotence to rules He set on earth? Is the earth now the same as the 'universe' that your reductionism has to bring God's omnipotence over all things down to what you want to argue on earth?

You see, it is now clear with each passing day that the WOF doctrines you espouse are sailing further and farther away from God's Word. It seems the latest in your posts is to find new ways for old tales of WOF doctrines to make God {who upholds all things by the word of His power} to now be subservient to whatever puny man dictates on earth - a tiny speck in a vast universe.

Stop hiding behind wof doctrines , deal with me as a person by the word.
There are several laws of God in the universe and in his dealings with man. From the laws of sowing and reaping , the law of justice, law of nature, reproduction to the law of sin and death, the law of the spirit of life, the law of faith etc.

God submits his omnipotence to this laws and his omniscience if I may say. This is my personal view from the word. For example , God in his omniscience should not have been surprised at the evil in the world in the days of Noah ,

Genesis 6:5-6
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6] And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Why should an omniscience God be taken by surprises, why should he regret creating man, didnt he know everything, didnt he know what they would do? In his omniscience he does but in his dealing with man he does not. but we know he does , but that how he relates in mans understanding , We should not try to probe into matters too high for us.

Deut. 29:29
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.


There are beings in the spiritual realm. principalities that are watching over the earth and giving reports to God. The bible call them watchers. they give report to God. and by there decree. God would know if the cup of iniquity of a man or a nation is full for judgement.

Daniel 4:17
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Daniel 4:13
I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Daniel 4:23
And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

God didnt allow Israel to destroy the amorites because there cup of iniquity was not yet full according to the watchers.

Genesis 15:16
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

They cried to God also concerning the iniquity of soddom and gommorah

Genesis 18:20-21
And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [21] I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Does the God that knows everything require a watcher as reporter?

We should deal with God according to his dealings in our different dispensation. If you running this race of omnicience of God , there will be collision with other spiritual laws. somebody will soon enter the error of predestination

viaro:
No worries, for however 'appropriately' you may have tried to express it, your ideas are still skewed and do not point to God's Word.

This is what you had stated:
First, what are the "laws" God has set in the 'universe' that would necessitate His submitting His omnipotence to the rules He has set?

I do not want to confuse between 'laws of the universe' in either - (a) the scientific sense, or (b) the [url=http://members.optusnet.com.au/~acceptance/UnderstandingSpirituality/Spirituality%20Files/LawsoftheUniverse.htm]religio-spirituality sense[/url]. However, in whatever sense you might have meant it, what are those 'laws' of the universe that are so baronial as that God would have to "submit His omnipotence" to them?

Now, if by 'laws of the universe' you now narrow them down to 'the rules of justice he set on the earth', how do you reconcile both statements? Does God actually "submit" His omnipotence to rules He set on earth? Is the earth now the same as the 'universe' that your reductionism has to bring God's omnipotence over all things down to what you want to argue on earth?

You see, it is now clear with each passing day that the WOF doctrines you espouse are sailing further and farther away from God's Word. It seems the latest in your posts is to find new ways for old tales of WOF doctrines to make God {who upholds all things by the word of His power} to now be subservient to whatever puny man dictates on earth - a tiny speck in a vast universe.

Stop hiding behind wof doctrines , deal with me as a person by the word.
There are several laws of God in the universe and in his dealings with man. From the laws of sowing and reaping , the law of justice, law of nature, reproduction to the law of sin and death, the law of the spirit of life, the law of faith etc.

God submits his omnipotence to this laws and his omniscience if I may say. This is my personal view from the word. For example , God in his omniscience should not have been surprised at the evil in the world in the days of Noah ,

Genesis 6:5-6
And God saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. [6] And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.

Why should an omniscience God be taken by surprises, why should he regret creating man, didnt he know everything, didnt he know what they would do? In his omniscience he does but in his dealing with man he does not. but we know he does , but that how he relates in mans understanding , We should not try to probe into matters too high for us.

Deut. 29:29
The secret things belong unto the Lord our God: but those things which are revealed belong unto us and to our children for ever, that we may do all the words of this law.

There are beings in the spiritual realm. principalities that are watching over the earth and giving reports to God. The bible call them watchers. they give report to God. and by there decree. God would know if the cup of iniquity of a man or a nation is full for judgement.

Daniel 4:17
This matter is by the decree of the watchers, and the demand by the word of the holy ones: to the intent that the living may know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will, and setteth up over it the basest of men.

Daniel 4:13
I saw in the visions of my head upon my bed, and, behold, a watcher and an holy one came down from heaven;

Daniel 4:23
And whereas the king saw a watcher and an holy one coming down from heaven, and saying, Hew the tree down, and destroy it; yet leave the stump of the roots thereof in the earth, even with a band of iron and brass, in the tender grass of the field; and let it be wet with the dew of heaven, and let his portion be with the beasts of the field, till seven times pass over him;

God didnt allow Israel to destroy the amorites because there cup of iniquity was not yet full according to the watchers.

Genesis 15:16
But in the fourth generation they shall come hither again: for the iniquity of the Amorites is not yet full.

They cried to God also concerning the iniquity of soddom and gommorah

Genesis 18:20-21
And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [21] I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Does the God that knows everything require a watcher as reporter?

We should deal with God according to his dealings in our different dispensation. If you running this race of omnicience of God , there will be collision with other spiritual laws. somebody will soon enter the error of predestination

God can do anything. but he wont.

aletheia:
^^^
Joagbaje's logic is defeated by the evidence that miracles occur. Miracles by their nature are a suspension of the laws in operation on earth when God chooses to sovereignly act to bring them to pass. The irony of the situation is that WoF is very loud in it's claims of miracles.

A miracle is not precisely an act of Gods sovereignty but a manifestation of Gods will through faith in his word.A miracle is not a suspension in God's law. But rather a supernatural occurence to bring man back into the original will of God. Salvation as a miracle is by your personal faith.

The Law is clear, "the soul that sins will die" and thus all men die but God has intervened that we might live. But Joagbaje's logic would have God bound and constrained by Law and unable to save.

You are wrong here . it is not the will of God for any to die.

[/quote][quote]Rom 9:15-21 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth. Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will? Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus? Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?

Nobody is denying that there are callings, giftings and abilities. Dont try to cleverly manipulate it into another thing. God has his will for each person. We need to know his will for our lives and fulfill. The attempt to pitch me against the plan and purpose of God will not be successful. My point is simple. A man will need to cooperate with God ,to bring his will to pass in his life. The will of God may not come to pass in a man's life, God Omnipotence cannot force a man into his will. Even though God possess such ability , he will not use it. You shoul know his will and purpose to fulfil it.

Acts 22:14
And he said, The God of our fathers hath chosen thee, that thou shouldest[b] know his will[/b], and see that Just One, and shouldest hear the voice of his mouth.

Abraham knew Gods will, Jesus knew Gods will, Paul knew Gods will and he prayed for churches to bre filled with the knowledge of the will.

Philip. 3:12-13
Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after, if that I may apprehend that for which also I am apprehended of Christ Jesus. [13] Brethren, I count not myself to have apprehended: but this one thing I do, forgetting those things which are behind, and reaching forth unto those things which are before,

2 Tim. 4:7
I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: [8] Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

viaro:
I just cannot imagine the ::[bleep]:: behind such statements!

Maybe God is bound may not sound appropriate , it was not used to suggest God as being bound as in bondage. maybe I should rather " God abides "by the rules of justice he set on the earth

See, Joagbaje, Enigma and co will keep calling you WOF as long as you keep saying these things, because these are the things preached by WOF. You may say you are not WOF, but you say EXACTLY the same thing they say, which the rest of the Christian body does not agree with:

But it is not an issue with me if you tag me any name, It is just for you to know it is escapisim from biblical discussion.
You are wrong to say the rest of christian body does not agree . It only few ignorant folks that are being used by the enemy to attack the mesage of faith ,that is required to perfect the church in their authority against the devil.

Please provide Biblical references for these claims.

God is a just God, and there are laws he has set in the universe. He himself is bound by those laws and has to submit his omnipotence to the rules he has set.

It is man that has legal right to function on this planet . Spirits are not allowed. God is spirit, demons are spirits, man is spirit.
Can you see your self-contradiction in the above claim? (outlined in green?) man is spirit but spirits are not allowed to function on earth?

It  not a contradiction if I say spirits are illegal on this planet and man is a spirit. That is the reason God put man in the human body to have a legal right to function, if a man loses his body , he is out of this plane. If God must function here, he must require a physical body too. but certainly not the heavenly body.

Foul! God came down to earth in Noah's day, in Abraham's day, in Joshua's day, and there is no law that prevents him from doing that again AT ANY TIME HE PLEASES. He was not breaking rules when he said "Should I not tell Abraham how I intend to destroy Sodom & Gomorrah?", no he wasn't breaking rules. He could have decided not to tell Abraham, and destroyed the city, but he told him so that Abraham will set an example of intercession for us.

Beautiful, He told Abraham because he needed a man to intercede. why ? it is not his will for them to perish but because there are rules because in the spirit realm , iniquities are measured until the cup of iniquity isa full, judgement has to take place, not because God loved it but there are rules and accordidng to rules they were to die but God needed a man to intercede and bring his will to pass but Abraham didnt do it well, so they died.Look at the language God used.

Genesis 18:20-21
    And the Lord said, Because the cry of Sodom and Gomorrah is great, and because their sin is very grievous; [21] I will go down now, and see whether they have done altogether according to the cry of it, which is come unto me; and if not, I will know.

Does this sound like the ominiscience of God? he didnt know? does he need to find out? Why he was relating according to spiritual rule and understanding of man. We should not defend what we dont know, There are rules. He didnt come as God.
He came down in human body not in his glory, he appeared to Moses also . He may appear in your dream,but he doesnt come in heavenly glory, his appearance has to be in  a way human brain can accept.

Exodus 33:20
    And he said, Thou canst not see my face: for there shall no man see me, and live.

You need to know also, that certain things God allowed or did under certain dispensation are not allowed again under new dispensation. Now he has given us his word , to live by faith. The rich man asked Abraham to send Lazarus from the dead to go back and appear to his wicked brothers so as to warn them, If they see a dead man ,they will believe, God could have done this in his omnipotence, but he will not, he has given us his word to accept, he wont coerce us into his will. Abraham replied that " they have the scriptures ,let them hear it" He poited them to the word. God once permitted Cain to Marry his sister. He permitted, lot to sleep with his daughters( I meant he could have preventted it.)  But he made a strict law against such later. He is still thesame God. He does not change but his dealings with man change from time to time according to the message or knowledge he has given in each age.

I asked if God will just do anything he likes why wont he just kill satan and get people saved and your response was :

Kai! What is this? God has already reserved the hell-fire for Satan. It's like saying someone has been convicted in the court and the court police are leading the murderer to the electric chair, and Joagbaje is asking, why not shoot the guy down immediately? Because it seems like a long time before the murderer gets to the electric chair, does not mean he won't get there. It's with YOU, a human being, that it seems its taking long.

Satan has not been judged or covicted, so how many years are we going to wait, What of the billions of people that are being dammed to everlasting torment and many suffering today because of satanic activities on his way to gas chamber. The good God will only say " Dont worry everybody, satan will be judged soon" or executed soon . No it doesnt sound righteous of him , he does not want any man to perish. He not the one running affairs here. That is why he has given us his word to navigate our way into his will. He can not eliminate the devil for man's freedom, he has to do things legally, He is a God of justice, and there are rules

Finally, tell me, Joagbaje, what you understand by the verse below, in respect of God's Will and what he can do on earth without anybody's interference or "authority":

[size=14pt]Exo 3:14  And God said to Moses, I AM WHO I AM and WHAT I AM, and I WILL BE WHAT I WILL BE; and He said, You shall say this to the Israelites: I AM has sent me to you![/size]

He is almighty, He can do anything but he wont do anything, because there are rules. The just shall live by faith.
  He had decreed by Jeremiah that Israel will spend 70 years in captivity. 70 years came and pass they were still there , untill Daniel read the prophecy of jeremiah and he began to pray, God always need a man.

I doubt,

Ganja seed and Petres 007 said he carry knife and cut his hand . But what the man said was that he cut growth out of his body by the word and not by the knife

I know the story is false but,For the record purpose you can put it here or the link

InesQor:
can you explain this quote of yours in post #109 on this thread, with the adequate backing of scriptural references?

The will of God is not automatic. GOD DOESNT HAVE LEGAL RIGHT TO ENFORCE THINGS ON THIS PLANET. He need human agency.!

Also, please answer also the simple question I am posing to nuella2 below. Thanks.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


@Nuella2: Do you believe that there are things that no matter your level of faith, understanding, revelation or anything, God will do and there's nothing you can do about it?
.

For your second question , Yes ,there are things God will do beyond our faith because he is God, But personaly I feel these still require our cooperations especially in the area of intercession. If God in his ominipotence will Just do anything, Why cant he just get the arabians saved, why would he need us to preach?. But sometimes he allows such miracles to take place, like the story of Saul because some people are praying. That is why he always call for intercessors. There are some evil God would have averted but he needs a man to pray about it. But of a truth, there are things that happens in lives of people ,beyond their faith. I have been in programmes where someone get healed without even expecting it, someone even once got healed while he was making mockery of miracles.

@QInesor

QInesor:
Kai! Kenneth Copeland Says God Is Banned From The Earth Unless The Church Allows Him!?

That's sick!!!

And I recall when I used to be a partner of KCM Ministries. . . almost ten years ago. I didn't know I was partially supporting the spread of spiritual diseases. Wow!!!

Why did you backslide brother, So what do you believe now
Look , This is simple even though I may not agree to the extreme launguage he used. Noobody can ban God . But the Issue is ,God is a just God, and there are laws he has set in the universe. He himself is bound by those laws and has to submit his omnipotence to the rules he has set.

Psalm 115:16
   The heaven, even the heavens, are the Lord's: but the earth hath he given to the children of men.

It is man that has legal right to function on this planet . Spirits are not allowed. God is spirit, demons are spirits, man is spirit. But a spirit withoun legal human body is illegal allien on this planet. For a spirt to function here , they need a human body, that is why demons ,who have lost their bodies need a body to enter desperately. it is either a spirit gets abody to enter or he can infuece a man that has body to carry out  his purpose. God will not come down to the earth to do things. It will be illegal. He would be braking rules. Why didnt God just kill satan, why does he allow temptations and other things. Because there are rules!

@Davidylan

davidylan:
yeah . . . far far deeper in heresy.

That is why I said some things cant be said on this forum because ofthe different level of ignorance understanding of individuals here. Dont ask a question that you are not ready to hear the answer, Dont ask a question to criticise. If there is something you are not clear about, ask for explanations. Dont just criticise. You should respond by the word of God. If your response is just attack and name calling, it shows you are empty on the inside. Many of you are quoting from anti faith anti church, anti miracle websites. why dont you ask yourself ,these websites you are visiting set out to tear men of God apart, Do they have the holy spirit, miracles and the miraculous as evidence. They dont even understand faith. If you condemn or criticise something, you should have alternative or substitute. You attack truth in the word of God that you dont understand. What do you have to give.
Mark you ,the truth has always been called heresy by ignorant people. The teachings of Jesus were hard in his generation, The Teachings of Paul was harder, they were called heresy by people who cant prove it.

Acts 24:13-14
Neither can they prove the things whereof they now accuse me. [14] But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets:

Enigma:
As long as you subscribe to any of these five things, you are most certainly in the Word of Faith camp --- no matter how much you deny that you are. In any event, any follower/believer of Oyakhilome's doctrine is inevitably a part of the word of faith movement.

The teaching of pastor Chris is far far deeper than all these people you are calling.So there is no point making reference to word of fAith movement. Of course there are some common grounds. I don't want to know your denomination, I want to judge you by your words and the word of God.

@Enigma
I can't give you straight answers to these things. It could be misunderstood . Paul didn't teach all he knew either. Some answer will require so much explanations.
1.Did Jesus come as a man ? Yes , he required faith and the holyghost to acomplished all he did , yes.
3.I am not God
4.I don't agree with you because Jesus did not come from adam , he had no sin . He was different from every man.
5. I don't Agree with your no 5 either , maybe you just exergerated what was said.

@Enigma

1 Tim. 2:3-4
   For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

Question; Are all men  saved? No of course why is the will of God not come to pass. Because man has a choice to agree or not. The will of God is not automatic. GOD DOESNT HAVE LEGAL RIGHT TO ENFORCE THINGS ON THIS PLANET. He need human agency.!

We pray to enforce his will in our world.

1 Tim. 2:1-4
   I exhort therefore, that, first of all, supplications, prayers, intercessions, and giving of thanks, be made for all men; [2] For kings, and for all that are in authority; that we may lead a quiet and peaceable life in all godliness and honesty. [3] For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; [4] Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth.

@ Enigma

Enigma:
That is sheer nonsense! You have admitted before that you follow the teachings of Kenyon, Hagin & Copeland. We have demonstrated conclusively that these are the leaders of the Word of Faith movement. Also, we have told you that Oyakhilome simply parrots what those heretics teach/taught and bamboozle you guys with such and pretending to have some "revelation".

Finally, you have here repeated several doctrines or "understandings of the Bible" (if we may call it that) that only the Word of Faith movement and its associates or infectees hold to. The following which you have yourself stated or supported expressly are Word of Faith movement doctrine which makes you conclusively a WoFer or Word of Faith movement follower/adherent (and thus, in my personal view, a heretic):

1. Jesus was just a man who operated by faith

2. As a born-again Christian you are "god" or "God".

3. The Lord's prayer - especially thy will be done - which Jesus taught to His disciples is not for the "mature born-again" person.



The ones below you didn't say expressly but you patently refused to deny them:

4.Before He died and rose again, Jesus was basically the same as and no greater than Chris Oyakhilome, Joagbaje or any other "christian" because all of them can do any thing BUT ONLY by faith.

5. Their [i.e. WoF] current living leader (after the death of Hagin snr), the most despicable Kenneth Copeland, has gone as far as saying any man could have died to save the sin of the world. Below is something he once said and has repeated in various ways a number of times: {snipped}

As long as you subscribe to any of these five things, you are most certainly in the Word of Faith camp --- no matter how much you deny that you are. In any event, any follower/believer of Oyakhilome's doctrine is inevitably a part of the word of faith movement.

It will be of interest for you to know that pastor Chris does not believe in WOF movement , neither do I. Maybe when i see their constitution I will consider if I should, but I dont believe in associations. I believe in the word.If you are dealing with me , deal with me according to the word Wof or no Wof. The point is , If i say or teach , you should judge it by the word . I judge you teaching by the word , I dont need to tag you with a name or organisation. all pentecostals believes different things, Oyedepo wash feet, and use annointing oil, Deeper life dont do either. You dont say all pentecostal use oil because they dont. Wof members . if theres anything like that may teach what I agree with according to truth that doesnt mean we all believe thesame thing. Quote the bible to judge my post not this so called Wof whatever.I have deeper understanding than some of these so called Wof. It will be degrading for me to say I follow them.

@ Enigma
can you quote any article where Kenyon or anyone claim there are starting a movement called word of faith. Can you also quote where I said that I follow Kenyon . all these people you mentioned don't all believe same things . I believe in some of their teachings but not necessary all. I believe in the teachings that agrees with the word of God. They all have different levels of understanding of truth. There is word of faith but there's is no such things as word of faith mvement.

@ Enigma

Enigma:
@Zikky

I think the point you are trying to make is different from that of Joagbaje's and his origin in Word of Faith movement doctrine.

Of course, a person who refuses to get educated, learn a trade or seek employment etc cannot expect to be successful ------ that is not really a matter of God's will per se. That is a matter of the ordinary course of things ---- of general nature. Let us put it in terms of three simplistic propositions:

1. God has ordered/decreed that some things must happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must happen.

2. God has ordered/decreed that some things must not happen; i.e. it is God's will that they must not happen.

3. God has left some things to happen or not happen according to the natural order or according to man's decision/action; i.e. God has not imposed a will as to whether some things will happen or not.

OK: these are three propositions and people may agree or disagree. However, I put these propositions up to ask of people like Joagbaje and others who follow Word of Faith movement doctrine, which of these three things requires the cooperation of man or of "the Christian" for God's will to be done?

This is the point Ive been trying to pass across but its being hijacked to mean what I didnt say. God has good plan for all his children.But the good plan will not work out by itself. because satan is still on rampage, his name means opponent,resistor etc. God has good plan for us all

Jeremiah 29:11
For I know the thoughts that I think toward you, saith the Lord, thoughts of peace, and not of evil, to give you an expected end.

Gods good plan will not just work out by itself.

Deut. 30:19
I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore choose life, that both thou and thy seed may live:

But despite this , God sometimes does some things without a mans cooperation but these so called sovereign manifestations still needs human cooperation through intercession. Saul got converted because people are praying. Peter ,Paul got delivered from prison and death because the saints were praying. God is always looking for an intercessor so that his will will come to pass.

Ezekiel 22:30-31
And I sought for a man among them, that should make up the hedge, and stand in the gap before me for the land, that I should not destroy it: but I found none. [31] Therefore have I poured out mine indignation upon them; I have consumed them with the fire of my wrath: their own way have I recompensed upon their heads, saith the Lord God.

God would have destroyed Israel several times if Moses had not interceded for them. He told God in one occasion to repent of the evil he was going to do in destroying the people, and THE SOVEREIGN GOD REPENTED.

Exodus 32:14
And the Lord repented of the evil which he thought to do unto his people.
If moses had not interceded and God destroys them , today people will say, he is sovereign thats why he repent not.

God has given man sole responsibility for his life. He has to function in Gods designed plan to function in it.

Pls I dont follow the so called Word Of Faith doctrine. It is an escappee name tag here. But i believe in The Word of God as the word of faith.And anyone who has not known word of faith is still a baby.

GODSON2009:
@poster
i must admit that i have learnt a lot by your insightful comments and i am posting it this minute to a christian brother,i guess our warped or incorrect understanding of these pertinent scriptures have allowed things to degenerate to this level.
i have always personally made it a point of duty to respect but never deify any man or woman of GOD,the funny thing is that most of these people do not ascribe this dubious understanding of the bible unto themselves but the "holy police" who surround them, my elder brother and his wife were opportuned to go to pastor adeboye's house on the camp ground and met him,and he came away with an impression of a laid back and humble man and woman of GOD,pastor mrs adeboye gave them a pack of ginger beer and while talking about it a friend of mine had the effontery to say he totally disbelieved them that a whole pastor mrs cannot give anybody ginger beer

Ginger beer is non alcoholic now. or it is ?

(a)     what is the meaning of "only begotten" in reference to Jesus Christ?

The term only begotten refers to The incarnation of Jesus on planet earth

John 1:14
    And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.


(b)     what is the meaning of "firstbegotten" in reference to Jesus Christ?

This has to do with the resurrection of Christ from the dead


(c)     do you find anyone else described as "only begotten" in the same way as Jesus is?

Not exactly

(d) do the terms "only begotten" and "firstbegotten" mean the same things to you?

Nope

(e) when was Jesus Christ called "the only begotten" - before or after His resurrection?

It makes reference to only his incarnation before his death.

O pari

KunleOshob:
I can see Viaro is really rearing up to tear Pastor agbaje apart

@joagbaje
answer the questions now or why all this evasive tatics don'tworry we would accept quotes from rapshodies of realities if you can not find any biblical quotes to support the heresies,

He may have torn you apart for your anti church stand , oh I see ,you have joined supporters club lets blow land on you again.