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Christianity Etc › Re: What Do Athiests Judge Their Morality On by johnydon22(m): 11:07pm On Sep 08, 2016

Toybreezy:
What justifies being human, no human value is learnt in isolation. We all pick from somewhere

exactly - if you are the only person in a room, you can fart as much as you want but when there are others with you, that is the only time you feel it is inappropriate to fart.

the society birthed ethics and values

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Christianity Etc › Re: The Ant Tale And Our Morality by johnydon22(op): 9:50am On Sep 08, 2016*

AlphaDex:
Only religious codes of morality encourages and stipulates for a selfless morality.

Starkly untrue and i will show how

Johnydon22's analysis with ants is gravely flawed.

Behind the queen ant's action is deception, manipulation and selfishness no better or worse than man's.
He skillfully did selective analysis.

From the post Soldiers that protect the colony, queens, workers and many more [size=20]but for our tale we will focus on the workers.[/size]

It was obvious that the 'Ant analogy' was based on the workers, behaviourial tendencies and collective approach.

Without religious codes, man's motive become selfish and his theories are only as good or worse than another man's.
Only religious ethics puts man in a place of objective and selfless action,eg; "love your neighbour as yourself"

Religious basis for morality presents the very apex of selfish propulsion for ethical actions, it subtly proposes an ethical position gunned towards posthumous reward [Paradise] or evasion of posthumous torture [hell].

The actions of the individual is severed from the "need" for ethical actions towards individuals or the society but rather as a greedy means to secure a posthumous end.

That is the height of greed, selfishness and cannot ever be considerately equated with anything near "selflessness".

Here is another tale.

Mr A is in need of Bread, he calls John and asks him to buy a bread for him but John is unwilling to undertake the tasks, he may directly reject or have an indifferent approach towards the request.

Mr A calls John again, brings out a #100 note and promises to give John the money as a reward if he carries out the task, John immediately agrees to the task.
In this scenario, John was not motivated into helping Mr A because he wanted to but for the selfish end of getting a #100 note

Mr A calls John on a second instance, brings out his whip and promises John 100 strokes if he refuses to carry out his request, John also fearfully carries out the task
this scenario also show cases a selfish motive behind John's action, he didn't go because he wanted to, he did so because he was afraid of Mr A's wrath therefore wanted only to save his skin

On a last instance Mr B calls Seun and request he helps him get some bread, Seun carries out the task.
seun unlike John had no reward or punishment option roped around the request, he did Mr B the favour sorely because he wanted to and not because of a "reward" or evasion of a "punishment" as an end

This sorely represents the position of religious moral influence

There are many moral philosophies but to add a nudge towards comformity to these moral lines of action religion proposes a selfish end

Heaven and hell, reward and punishment.

Just like John from the analogy up there, A religiously influenced moral tilt is not fueld by selflessness as you want to argue - but rather a basic means to a selfish end "securing heaven or evading hell"

It is in fact a reluctant approach towards ethical actions that needs 'selfish' nudges in order to be exhibited.

It shows most ethical behaviours as a result of Religious influences in essense cannot be equated as selfless goodness but only a selfish means of gaining a personal goal, take away these "reward and punishment" idea and such a person's moral inclination is severed.

The religious influence of morality makes morality a coercive project - the average religious person does not do 'good' or follow the certain line of moral positions tendered by such a religion because h wants to, he does that only because he wants to Gain a paradise or escape a hell

Here is a first hand example

malvisguy212:
if you find it hard to forgive your enemy, why not look for a gun and kill him, no God will hold you accountable for your sin .

Here is Malvisguy who holds the idea that you need a God who'd hold you "accountable" before you try not to be a complete sicko serial killer.

A basis for morality based on such not only "selfish" ends but also 'disturbing' concepts are in themselves 'immoral'

Human ethical behaviours should be above such shallow infleunces.

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Christianity Etc › Re: 30 Spiritual Facts About Spiritual Witchcraft Cobwebs by johnydon22(m): 11:04pm On Sep 07, 2016

One reality Facts about Spiritual Cobwebs : "There is no such thing" . . . All we have are just cobwebs.

All the ludicrous superstitious beliefs incorporated into the 'Christian belief' mostly utilized by the MOG's to massage the fears of the gullible masses and make them easier to extort.

Such beliefs are for clowns and drags the very intellectual stage or potentials of being a homo sapien to the mud.

Christianity Etc › Re: Eye Of God Appears In Sky Above Astana by johnydon22(m): 10:56pm On Sep 07, 2016

These type of things insult the very fundamentals of human intellect

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: The Ant Tale And Our Morality by johnydon22(op): 10:43pm On Sep 07, 2016

Seun:
Nice post by johnydon22. It seems as if everyone agrees with you. One big issue with religious morality is that it's based on outdated books.

and addresses a quite different timeline from now, its almost certainly impossible to reconcile both worlds.

These are levels we should be way above..

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Christianity Etc › Re: The Ant Tale And Our Morality by johnydon22(op): 9:33pm On Sep 07, 2016

dorox:
Nice write up as usual @johnydon22,I enjoyed reading it. Keep them coming

Thank you brother

I am in broad agreement with you, though I have some objections which are too nuanced for me to properly convey in writing.
Maybe we shall meet in person someday and have these conversations.

I'm always open to scintillating coversations and intellectual discussions

2 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: The Ant Tale And Our Morality by johnydon22(op): 8:44pm On Sep 07, 2016

Cc. lalasticlala

Christianity Etc › Re: The Ant Tale And Our Morality by johnydon22(op): 8:39pm On Sep 07, 2016

kolawaxxy:
If morality evolves, then it's safe to say that there is no absolute morality.

Cc Hardmirror

Almost certainly true - there is a subjective sense in every moral position...

Example - we will all frown at the idea of torturing children but at the same time many here would still torture their child with the aim of 'correction' believing that 'torturing a child' under such circumstance is right.

Christianity Etc › Re: The Ant Tale And Our Morality by johnydon22(op): 8:33pm On Sep 07, 2016

lordnicklaus:
Thanks for this insightic thread @ johnydon22. I really wish other theists will see the absolute reason in this write-up and stop being good for the sake of heavenly reward, though I do not believe in an infernal confine of eternal punishment. Being good is a matter of choice and not coercion and it should be taken as such. Though a theist, I really wish we could let people see reason to be good without imbuing morality with a comforting idea of heaven or as some theists would do, a blood curdling threat of hell. Nice write-up and good to read from you @ johnydon22

To me the application of such barbaric idea to coerce a mind into comforming to the directives of the authorities is in itself immoral.

Thank you Lordnicklaus, it's being quite long i wrote down an article here.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: The Ant Tale And Our Morality by johnydon22(op): 8:31pm On Sep 07, 2016*

opeaceo:
Basically, you're implying morality evolves and it does differ from place to place.

Secondly, from your initial write up, IMO, you're saying morality is tailored according to nature and whatever it throws at us??

Naturally there are unceasing causes and effects, catastrophic events leading to awe striking result, in this cosmic setting of uncharted chains of uncaring causalities there is nothing like "Good or evil" natures goes anyway, everywhere, unbound and limitless.

"Good and evil" is a concept derived by the mind and this in the human sense is basically proportional to the effect of a particular action on our well being..

My write up highlights few of the basis from whence humans can derive ethical and moral propulsion that is not necessarily sewn into religious influence.

So you probably misconcieved the write up

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: The Ant Tale And Our Morality by johnydon22(op): 8:22pm On Sep 07, 2016

kolawaxxy:
Jonnydon22, is the society therefore responsible for the moderation of morality?

Does morality evolve?

Yes Morality and ethics do evolve, because societies which defines these terms also evolve, needs evolve, expectations evolve... One look at the history of human civilization is enough to show this.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › Re: The Ant Tale And Our Morality by johnydon22(op): 8:19pm On Sep 07, 2016

opeaceo:
So long a write-up,

Who/what defines morality, to what set rule(s) is morality tailored to? Society/Science/Nature/individuals??

Morality is of human conception therefore is of human definition - That is why varying societies and civilizational timeline all have varying ideas on morality.

Example - If you literally live by the Biblical mosaic Laws in the 21st century, You'd be in Jail.

1 Like

Christianity Etc › The Ant Tale And Our Morality by johnydon22(op): 7:48pm On Sep 07, 2016

There have been very wild questions on how morality can be derived without religion, this question though i find it shallow most times comes from a sincere mind and truly an attempt in dealing with that simplistic view of a human ethical wiring purely based on religious interface is vital.

Most people cannot distinguish between human morality and religion, they cannot understand the need for ethical behaviours without religious or external coercions but here is a simple truth human morality has no religious basis, as a matter of fact human morality precedes religious influences

Let me tell a tale of nature, a tale of the most simple of beings, a tale of humility and sacrificial oneness, a tale of enviable order, a tale of selflessness, a tale of the ants

One thing that the human ego has left us is Blind, Blind to the lives we deem lesser than our own, blind to the subtle lessons nature teaches in her ever eventful stage.

I want to tell a tale of the ants, a tale that can teach us what we so blindly cannot see except with a cracking whip of religious influence omniously on our back.

The ants live in holes virtually everywhere around us and each ant hole has a thriving society, A colony.

The colonies are divided into groups according to functions, all groups as important as the other.

Soldiers that protect the colony, queens, workers and many more but for our tale we will focus on the workers.

Every ant's action is gunned towards the good and continuation of the colony, remarkably the human society is a mutilated mimicry of the ant's society except that most human actions are towards "personal [selfish]" ends.

Ants had a well organized society millions of years before the first human crawled out of the caves.

So the ant workers, i have watched them on many occasions working as a single unit, they rarely leave an injured ant behind and there is almost certainly a remarkable care for both one another and the entire colony, they work for the good and continuation of their society.

Many might be wondering why i chose the ants, i wanted to use a life form as common to access as the every day human world, neglected, crude and primitive but still a better organizer than humans ever have been and with a very basic moral behaviour toward each other and their society devoid of the greed of "Afterlife" or the fear of a sinister torture chamber.

So now the question How are you moral without religion?

Human morality was never a religious construct - so how can a human not be moral outside religious influence?

-I doubt if any of us here need the Quran, Veda or the bible to tell us before we bring ourselves to love our parents.

-How many of us need religious coercions to love and care for our young?

So why have we so demeaned human moral and ethical positions to a pitiable shallow state that many cannot concieve "Goodness" without being threatened into it or promised a posthumous reward for it.

it is indeed shallow that many humans cannot see beyond the horizone of such sinister ideas to derive ethical behaviours towards others and the society at large.

A critical evaluation of the 'so called' moral codecs in these pravelent religious doctrines brings to light a bizarre and cruel aspect of 'authorative coercion and some times evil posed as good'.

We humans must break free from this shallow pool of 'selfish' drive to ethical lives and look inward towards our own basis - human morality and ethics have far better and profound basis like

-Love
-Empathy
-Sympathy
-Compassion
-pity
-Family
-Societal bonds
-concern for others and societal well being.

Personally i do not even believe that someone with compassion, empathy, love and is profoundly humane can believe such a bizarre evil disturbing concept as an eternal punishment let alone invoke it as a basis for human morality

There is a saying that "Good cannot come out of evil" how can we hope to achieve goodness through disturbing concepts aimed at our fears.

If you cannot find humane reasons to be good to others except only through religious influence or other external influences such as political ones, then you are operating on a shallow level of human behaviourial potentials.

As Albert Einstein once said "If we humans cannot be good to others unless for heaven or hell then we are a sorry lot indeed"

There also however i can pin point religion and politics has been of useful influence for human ethical shaping as well as many that can also be referred to as disturbing as well as sinister influence from these values.

I am not aiming at discouraging "A moral direction" through religious coercions, it has proved useful on many cases, i am only correcting the niave idea that human morality has a religious or supernatural foundation.

If you can only be good to others because of the promise of heaven or the threat of hell then it shows exactly how little you think of others.

Humanism should drive our ethical positions towards each other, we must derive geniune care and concern and not aim at arriving at selfish ends.

If there are God(s) it appeals to logic that there would appreciate geniune concern and empathy more than reluctant comformity through threat and reward themes.

To claim morality is a religious construct is as ridiculous as claiming that the Alphabets was invented by the English men. [there are in fact Greek]

Morality is neither Muslim, Christian or Hindu, it is a human thing and belongs to no ism, neither is it dependent on any book, doctrines, creed or supernatural for basis. It has a human basis.

As long as there are varying individuals living together on this cosmos of cruel "competitive existence" there must be both positive and negative behaviours in this boundless collision of fates but i think it doesn't take anything to be a nice person neither does it hurt to be less an asss_hole than most people are.

So just like the Ants in our tale, we can derive an ethical behaviour gunned towards personal and societal well being and continuation without the need of religious influence - it is necessary for our continuation.

By Johnydon22

Cc. LoJ, Seun, Dorox....

it's an open floor..... every idea is welcome

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Christianity Etc › Re: What Do Athiests Judge Their Morality On by johnydon22(m): 6:54pm On Sep 07, 2016

Toybreezy:
I just read an article here that informed me about mark zukerberg of facebook being an atheist. Athiest as I believe means someone who doesn't believe the existence of God(or any supreme spiritual being).

So my question is why are some atheist still jeered towards making the world a better place, it is understandable that christains try hard to be good because of God commandment and muslim because of Allah and mohammed.

But who are atheist modelling their morality principles after? I'd like ample opinions of people on this...

Tell me - do you need Yahweh or Allah to tell you to love your children and care for them before you?

If "No" then you have arrived at exactly how morality independent of religious coercions are derived.

they are based on empathy, compassion, love, sympathy, concern for others, need for societal well being and continuation, family, community, pity and many other beautiful humane reasons to be good to others and not be an asss hole..

If you cannot evolve pass the shallow form of morality based on some greedy religious theme - Don't ask how others do better than you without it.

You only need to be human in a human society and live like it, it doesn't take anything not to be a total idiot toward others - that's all

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Christianity Etc › Re: Is There Any Difference Btw The People Of 'sodom And Gomorrah' And Atheists/sata by johnydon22(m): 3:29pm On Sep 07, 2016

Titto93:
Even if their is no God the prayers channelled to him will make one exist

I really wish things worked that way, but alas it doesn't. . prayers are profound wishes and wishes are not horses.

Look around the world, even if prayer manages to create a God then that God still is incompetent and inefficient at it's task delivery.

Cus even though billions of humans pray daily with hopeful hearts to the heavens - children are still dying in their millions daily, famine, hunger, earth quakes still kill many, people still die in churches and mosques, the world is still bleeding and weeping, i hope such a god that supposedly should hear all these prayers has a reasonable excuse for these unfortunate happenings.

Even if prayers manages to create a god or gods it also affirms the position that God(s) are our creations not the other way round.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Is There Any Difference Btw The People Of 'sodom And Gomorrah' And Atheists/sata by johnydon22(m): 11:40pm On Sep 06, 2016

mrZENographer:
Lawlessness and the people of Sodom and Gomorrah and athiests do they have any contrast.

First naive impression

Religious 'Do's' and 'Don'ts' do not equate laws of a society and lack of such uncalled restrictions do not equate 'lawlessness'

we have societal laws like the constitution, a poll of the Nigerian prison is enough to tell you who really is Lawless, Atheist or religious person.

opinions:

They want to DO AS THEY LIKE. No discipline,

i do not see how being religious makes you more disciplined than the other, most Nigerian celebrities are theists, how many of them is more disciplined than Zuckerberg who is an atheist.

morality,

Being moral do not have anything to do with being religious, morality is neither Christian or muslim or hindu, it belongs to no ism and is not dependent on any book, creed or supernatural for foundation.

Morality has a human foundation.

I do think that it is true some people obviously like yourself cannot be moral without the application of forceful religious coercion and threats - heaven and hell, and for such cases i think religion comes as a very useful tool.

But there are far better and more effective reasons to be moral - Love, sympathy, compassion, family and societal bonds and many more.

If your moral compass has not evolved pass the shallow stage of "reward and punishment" theme - Selfish ends, then it is a sad reality.

decency. NO STRINGS ATTACHED.

See above

No wonder they hate God so much.

those who hate God are called Misotheists and they are also theists.

They would rather eat shit than acknowledge that God exists.

there is nothing wrong in a god existing, its even cool but since we cannot know or find out only assume - i choose to be honest enough not to pretend to know what no one knows, i choose to be honest enough not to pretend there is one, i choose to be above the waters of blind faith and abusive conformity.

Not that it isn't true, but SIMPLY because it just goes against every fetish things they desire.

One look at the world is enough to debunk this, the world has so much moral decay and majority is being carried out by theist, the so called holy men of GOD, some even kill in the name of God.

so sir this also is self refuting, whether someone believes in a God or not, it doesn't stop them from doing what they want.

its a pity Jesus preached against "Holier than thou" attitude but his followers who supposedly should strive to be like him ended up becoming the complete opposites and exactly the type of people he spoke against.

CHAI. Sorry to bust your precious bubble ooo.
Truth is: *You can keep running* but you can never hide!

I believe you ended up bursting your own bubble, revealing just how little you know and how you have a naive impression of the world.

And all in all you didn't present any argument only straw man fallacies in a smack bowl of enthusiastic naivete.

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Christianity Etc › Re: The Miracles Approved For The Canonization Of Blessed Mother Teresa Of Calcutta by johnydon22(m): 11:11pm On Sep 03, 2016

And Iwene Tansi has been stuck on "Blessed" for many decades now, wake the fu_ck up Africans.

They don't really care about you, its their con job, they run the whole facade. You lot are nothing but pawns in this "Christianity organization".

Christianity Etc › Re: It Was The Devil's Handiwork by johnydon22(op): 11:02pm On Sep 03, 2016

Tenniebenson:
. . Calm down Chai!

Yes. if you have questions you can ask them on whatsapp

Christianity Etc › Re: Is There Something Inherently Wrong With Black Africans? by johnydon22(m): 2:57pm On Sep 02, 2016

Jack65:
How do we do that, and how long is it going to take us?

A revolution as KingEtiennsky would suggest - we need an intellectual revolution, there are many factors hindering the intellectual curiosity, honesty and ultimately growth of the african mind.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Is There Something Inherently Wrong With Black Africans? by johnydon22(m): 2:33pm On Sep 02, 2016

I do not believe anything is wrong with Black Africans - There only are need for us to evolve into thinking differently

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Christianity Etc › Re: Who Lives In Enugu? Let Us Link Up. by johnydon22(m): 8:02pm On Sep 01, 2016

Joshthefirst:
Hey Anony. Long time no see. My home is in Enugu but I'm currently in school. I was in Enugu on the 13th. Looks like I missed a meet up opportunity. Smh

You dey PH? Correct. No time zone difference. We can play any evening you're free

when ever you enter 042 hit me up

Christianity Etc › Re: Astrology And Psychic Reading by johnydon22(m): 8:10am On Aug 31, 2016

if the world was a little dumber, astrology would still have been flourishing.

5 Likes

Christianity Etc › Re: A Restaurateur Asks Veiled Muslim Women To Leave His Establishment. by johnydon22(m): 8:08am On Aug 31, 2016

I do not understand the hypocrisy you all exhibit when your religion is not victim.

supposing this happened to a christian, none of you here will be supporting it or saying the french government will be wrong to support the women, the man will be given names like

-Anti-Christ
-satan
-persecutor

and all nonsense and stuff but here just because the women are muslims makes it ok.

Hypocrites.

It's ironic that jesus argued against hypocrites, his followers ended up being the worst hypocrites on planet earth.

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Christianity Etc › Re: Who Lives In Enugu? Let Us Link Up. by johnydon22(m): 7:55am On Aug 31, 2016

MrAnony1:
Yes. Same venue, same time.

Alright then i think i'll make it

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Christianity Etc › Re: Who Lives In Enugu? Let Us Link Up. by johnydon22(m): 7:35am On Aug 31, 2016

MrAnony1:
Oh it went well actually.

The next meetup happens to be tomorrow evening incidentally. Topic is "Is It Ethical To Genetically Modify Our Children?"

It will be nice to have you around if you can make it.

Same Venue and time?

Christianity Etc › Re: Who Lives In Enugu? Let Us Link Up. by johnydon22(m): 8:12pm On Aug 30, 2016

MrAnony1:
Hi everyone,

It's been ages. Sadly these days I hardly have the time to show up on NL. Anyways, since my days of being active on NL, I've moved back to Nigeria and I now live in Enugu.

I'm looking to link up with Nairalanders on this Religion forum who are in Enugu and who would love to hang out and discuss a little theology/philosophy.

If this is you, let me know on this thread and we can arrange a meet-up.

Cheers y'all.

Hello brother

How did the "Biafra, yes or No" debate go?

I'm sorry i didn't make it, a lot of things came up at work. . . Please send me the date and topic of the next meet up so i can check of i'll be there.

Christianity Etc › Re: It Was The Devil's Handiwork by johnydon22(op): 6:56pm On Aug 29, 2016

Tenniebenson:
God!!!! I can't believe atheists dominates dis site.... This is really disheartening... Hmmmm.... It will be a waste of time explaining something to a deaf fellow... It is well.

Hahahaha my tennie calm down oo

Christianity Etc › Re: Overcoming The Fear Of Hell FIRE: A Response To Atheists And Their Likes by johnydon22(m): 7:05am On Aug 25, 2016

Hades = Greek myth

I call it myth, Everyone agrees happily.

Duat = Egyptian Myth [First underworld concept in history - in fact the very idea of Afterlife was started by the egyptains].

I call it myth everyone agrees happily.

And thus goes for every underworld myth scattered across every culture, everyone agrees it's myth.

Hell = a christian corruption of the greek word gehena and the greek myth "Hades"

i call it myth, some christians start wailing.

Somehow at different timelines, everyone believe their superstition is correct but as time has shown your religion of today is the entertainment of tomorrow.

No atheist fear any idea of hell, otherwise such a person cannot be atheistic. As a matter of fact majority of you guys are bullied into comformity with that idea

the fear of hell these atheists mention was that it kept them in theism even when they wanted out until they eventually escaped the grip of such myth that has been taught to them as truth all their life.

Affirming that most theists are there because of the fear of hell and greed of another life.

I know you believe you are doing what is right and good by trying to tell everyone that there is a place of eternal torture that will be used to punish a sin committed in a life time.

I thank you for your concern and care but i must also ask; How can you possibly love a God who is going to burn someone you care about [let alone billions of others] eternally simply because they don't believe in it or hurt it's ego.

how can you possibly justify burning people infinitely for a finite transgression, how can such barbarism make any iota of sense to you.

I cannot worship or respect such a god because such a god holds attributes of something i'd consider extremely evil and it grieves me that you can, or maybe you are bullied into such belief and worship by that monstrous sinister and barbaric idea as hell.

Fear is the boat that drives your faith and belief.

If there is indeed a god - the attributes of Yahweh would be an insult to it

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Romance › Re: This Is Why Being Nice To Nigerian Girls Is Wrong! (photo) by johnydon22(m): 11:41pm On Aug 24, 2016

Fabulocity:
Lol don't be such a dumbass. She simply wants a man who has seen it all because she believes he can be calm and loyal. But one who's still "innocent" will want to "explore" and play around.

I don't blame her though. Men are the same.

who told you to try them all?

14 Likes 1 Share

Christianity Etc › Re: The Four Types Of Fear I Faced on my journey To Atheism by johnydon22(m): 10:41pm On Aug 24, 2016

AnonyNymous:
Same bro, same. . . after a while you realise the futility in engaging these people. They just can't apply logic. Lol. Its a waste of time for the most part, having 'discussions' with them

Sometime ago i was baby sitting my sister's 11 month old daughter, she was seated on the floor playing with some toys, i was on my phone but had a constant eye on her.

I noticed as she was trying to put a bigger toy through a small rubber bracelet, i knew it was impossible.

Naturally there is a need to correct this, you'd be compelled to but i kept watching her and started thinking.

"there is nothing i tell her right now that will matter or be relevant as her level of consciousness is still at that naive stage, so even though correcting her is good it is still irrelevant at that stage therefore useless"

I then likened it to NL..

When you see myths, superstitions and most times ignorant postulations, you feel the need to correct them, you are compelled to speak [that is why a lot of irreligious people speak against religions] but then again even though it is ok it is still irrelevant.

So i realized certainly we are all at different level of consciousness, there is a certain stage of illumination you get where all you want to do is speak your truth and not convince people of it.

It is irrelavent convincing a baby they should walking when they are at that stage of crawling - that truth is meaningless to them.

Endless debates, going in circles and emotional banters are not only irrelevant but also useless.

so when ever you can simply speak your truth and not convince or argue endlessly over it.

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