₦airaland Forum

OLAADEGBU: They are united and cannot be subtracted, they have distinct personalities but remain One God. Read the article on the biblical basis of the godhead above for a better understanding of how they all have the attributes of God. C.S. Lewis gave a good analogy of the trinity.

I understand what you are trying to say, however IF divinity is bound by reason also, you'd be compelled to reject contradictions. Its either one in the union is God or the union itself is God. It can't be both.

AlvinPlantinga: The problem here being that most of the questions asked, including this one are strawmen arguments.even hardened Atheis Philosphers would not take serious many of the questions asked here.

Its quite a thoughtful question. An omnipresent being like God will have impression of that essence in every culture and thought

tbaba1234: We are taught to engage the people of the book in the best of ways:: that includes courteous debates::



How many empires survive for almost 700 years??

The ottomans fell because they became corrupt and were moving away from Islam not the other way around... Its longevity was because of the Justice in its lands:

A jewish rabbi wrote this about the muslims land in 1453 under the ottomans. He was inviting all jews to come to the muslim lands

Here in the land of the Turks we have nothing to complain of. We possess great fortunes; much gold and silver are in our hands. We are not oppressed with heavy taxes and our commerce is free and unhindered. Rich are the fruits of the earth. Everything is cheap and every one of us lives in peace and freedom. Here the Jew is not compelled to wear a yellow star as a badge of shame as is the case in Germany where even wealth and great fortune are a curse for a Jew because he therewith arouses jealousy among the Christians and they devise all kind of slander against him to rob him of his gold. Arise my brethren, gird up your loins, collect all your forces and come to us.(Philip Mandel, Constantinople: City of the World's Desire 1453-1924, Ch. 1 (London, 1995). )



A defector during the cold war will not even be given a trial... He will be assasinated by the CIA or the KGB.. If you had capitalist ideas in the communist state as an ordinary person and try to propagate it... How far will you go??

that's convenient for you.

A simple man who finds fault in his religion or finds a refreshing view on divinity or believes he is the way to a new faith iS not the same defection! Its merely rumbling conscience

Defection and illegal immgration are entirely different. Soviet citizens regularly migrated to other countries (capitalist) and they weren't labelled defectors same with Ayn Rand.

Defectors were either key members of the govt or individuals in possession of vital info that compromises the security of the State or its image.

tbaba1234: There is no inherited rule under Islamic law first of all, The leader must get the alleigance of all the region/tribes to rule. Were there inherited leadership in Islamic empires? yes but that is not the rule...

Stop talking as if you know the first thing about an Islamic system:: There are no checks and balances?? really?? Why does the leader have to get approval from all the regions and tribes then??

During the cold war, the communist who defected to the other side was deemed treasonable.... Why do you think that was? Was he overthrowing the state? If he started to promote an idea other than communism in the state, what do you think will happen to him? They would not think twice about executing him..


Let me give you a brief explanation of the Islamic system

The leader or the Head of State under the Islamic system of government is the Mujtahid who satisfies all the criteria required, (in the case of there being a single Mujtahid.)

These powers may only be “in the hands” of the Head of State if the majority of the public agrees to this and provided that such measures are taken as to ensure that there is no likelihood of this eventually leading to a system of dictatorship. It is of utmost importance to establish a system of party-political
pluralism in the country.

Legislation is made by consultation: Islam teaches us to run a government, to make legislation and decisions by the process of Shura. Shura means "to take decisions by consultation and participation" (3:159, 42:38). This is an important part of the Islamic political system. There is no scope for despotism in Islam. The Qur’an and the Sunnah will be the basis of legislation in Islam.

So there is a shura council>> So he has no arbitrary powers:: Does that sound like a Monarchy?

Independence of judiciary.

In the Islamic political system, the Judiciary is independent of the Executive. The head of the state or any government minister could be called to the court if necessary. They would be treated no differently from other citizens. The Qur’an has many injunctions about justice. One of the main functions of the Islamic state is to ensure justice to all citizens (4:58, 4:135, 5:. The ruler and the government has no right to interfere in the system of justice.

(check : http://imamshirazi.com/the%20islamic%20system.pdf, http://www.angelfire.com/bc3/johnsonuk/eng/dawa/politic.html for more)

An Islamic state is based on the model of Prophet Muhammad’s (phuh) state in Madinah while a Muslim state is one which has a majority Muslim population and some Islamic features.

The basic islamic system is NOT like a monarchy.

The Islamic system does not expressly forbid non-muslims from ruling but i doubt a non-muslim can get the allegiance of a majority muslim population. It does not forbid them from political participation. Infact it goes a step further.. It allows them to make a decision on the laws that govern them in the muslim state.

In the Islamic state, the jewish and christian communities adhere to their own laws and have their own courts with full autonomy . you don't get that in the US for religious groups.

The armenian genocide has nothing to do with Islam, it wasn't always like that.... The empire was already in decline; they committed atrocities, they were corrupt... This led to an internal revolt that destroyed it.

You just need to go further in time to see how Jewish and christian groups thrived under Islamic rule... The final (and decaying) years of the Ottoman empire is not a fair assessment of Islamic rule. The Ottoman existed for 700 years....

You brought up a fact that the Ottoman empire was an Islamic state. As a matter of history, the so called checks were not sufficient, neither was the state equitable and fair to all its subjects, it became despotic and warlike and at frequent conflicts with its neighbours over expansionist policies.

The idea that the empire was crumbling and corrupt could be owed to the inadequacies and greviances caused by the Islamic system of governance.

tbaba1234: In the early years when Baghdad was the capital of the muslim empire, There were open debates by different religious groups;;;; The jews, the christians and even those with no faith...

What do you mean by having no right to speak?

The state does not prescribe a man's faith;; you can believe what you want:

This is contrary from what you have been saying. Propagation of beliefs and thoughts was not permissible IF it wasn't the State prescribed ideology.

jmoore: I can't believe this question is being asked.

1-It is not a mass of tissue!!!! The heart starts to beat two to four weeks after conception. The tiny brain is already generating brain waves after 7 weeks. By the second month (when most abortions take place) the arms, legs, fingers, toes, ears, nose, mouth, muscles, organs, and bones are either formed or close to finish.

2-"It isn't fully developed" quote made out of ignorance .
Neither is a three-year-old. A human is not fully developed until the late teens to early twenties, and even afterwards matures in different ways. Can the stage of development really define what the being is? Is an adult more human than a child or merely more developed? A woman who had difficulty in her pregnancy in its fourth month was operated upon and the baby was kept in an intensive unit till she gets matured enough. Is the baby human or not?

3-"it isn't conscious?" another quote made out of ignorance
Can consciousness be a universal human trait? If so, would a sleeping or anesthetized or comatose person be considered "non-human" because of his or her lack of consciousness?

4-"it's inside the womb?" That's one of the dumbest statement I heard
The location of an individual determines whether or not it is a human being? A baby the moment before birth is not human, but immediately after birth becomes human? How? Why? What is the child when it’s half-way out? Half-human?

5-"it's part of the woman's body, therefore the woman have the right to remove it(kill it)"
The hands are the mother’s? The heart? The brain? Taking that argument to its logical conclusion, (via the transitive relationship where if A is a part of B, and B is a part of C, then A is a part of C) a pregnant woman then has four hands, four feet, two brains, and, if the fetus is a boy, the woman has both male and female genitals. Perhaps you can see how illogical this argument is. Moreover, the fetus has its own unique genetic code in each of its cells; not the mother’s code, not the father’s code—its own human genetic code. The fetus is in the mother, attached to the mother, but not part of the mother.

6-It is alive
It’s growing. It’s developing. It’s responding. It’s functioning. It’s burning food and oxygen. It’s giving off waste products. Its cells are reproducing. These are properties of a living being. It is a Life.


The fetus is only a human being and is just as prone as a child or adult to have an accident, develop a disease, or suffer an iatrogenic problem"


A pre-born baby is fully human from the moment of conception. What we see in the photograph expresses that understanding better than a thousand words.
The photo depicts a 21-week-old pre-born baby, who was being operated on by a surgeon named Joseph Bruner (It is his finger in the photo). The baby had been diagnosed with spina bifida, which leaves the spinal cord exposed after it fails to develop properly.

A Caesarean section was then performed to lift the uterus gently from mother's body, permitting the surgeon to make a small incision through which the operation would be performed. Then, it happened! As Dr. Bruner was probing the opening, the baby's fully-developed hand wrapped itself around the finger of the surgeon. The photograph captures that amazing moment with perfect clarity.

All those don't count for being a person.

tbaba1234: Up till the 1920s: we still had a functioning Islamic state (Ottoman empire). The colonialists tore up the Muslim state in bits after the collapse of the ottomans

There are movements to reunite the muslims under Islam again... And it will happen, it is just a matter of time.

The punishment for apostacy in an Islamic state is death.... This is however a very simplistic explanation: It comes with caveats..

There are certain conditions where conversion is accompanied with acts that could be considered treasonable by the state. The punishment for treason is death.

The act of just conversion is not punishable in most cases, however if that conversion is accompanied by an attempt to discredit Islam or propagate another religion within the islamic state, It is considered treasonable.

This law is not applicable to new muslims so they get a free ride.

The apostacy law came about during the time of the prophet;

In order to discredit Islam, some Jews in medina would accept islam in the day and leave by sunset; They continued to do so until the law was put in place.

Guess how many people did so the next day? None..

Now if one is considered an apostate, a number of steps must be taken:

He speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

isn't that a tyrannical law?? Execute a man for religious differences?? Constant conversion of religion and beliefs is the fault and at the discretion of a man, the State can't justly prescribe thoughts and beliefs for a man.

Although Islam is propagated with public expense, yet other religions aren't given a chance to speak, is that a fair and open society??

tbaba1234: An Islamic state is a state where every muslim is a citizen; That is the definition of an Islamic state: I can not go to any of these countries and claim citizen rights based on the fact that i am muslim.

Therefore, they are not Islamic states. Our history shows that we were mainly one state before colonisation. After that nationalism and tribalism divided the muslims.

Besides none of these nation states practise the sharia fully, they take parts of the laws and ignore the rest.



Again, the basis of state laws is Islam....

If it was based on a secular ideology and you do acts against the state constitution; You will be charged with treason. During the cold war, defectors from each side were seen as traitors and faced the maximum penalty.

Monarchies are alien to Islam, there were instituted by the colonialists, The rest are mainly secular dictatorships... Which government exactly practises Islam? Which is an Islamic state? Saudi Arabia is the closest you will come and i have already shown why they are not an Islamic state.

Applying a few laws of the sharia does not make you an Islamic state.



That is not true, Non-muslim can hold political positions in an Islamic state, they can rule a region of the state but they can't be the caliph(overall leader)....

acts against the constitution?? Like burning it?? Or disobeying its laws?? No! Those don't amount to treason. Treason is any act aimed at overwhelming and overpowering/overthrow the govt. To claim an average man in Pakistan who has doubts about his religion and shares it with his family and friends is committing treason is ridiculous!

Islamic states were effectively despotic, no formal constitution or check and balances or democracy. The Ottoman empire was ruled by a Sultan with succession to his children. For all intents and purposes, that's a monarch.

The Ottoman empire is responsible for the genocide in Armenia, muslims turned on their second class citizens and butchered them.

An atheist couldn't rule why because he is a second class citizen too?? What if the US constitution forbade muslims from being involved in the governance over themselves, would that be just and fair?

To you why is a foetus a person??

@Ola

Its very simple here. IF Jesus, Holy Spirit and the father ALL make God personality, then the substraction of any of them reduces God to nil.

But if Jesus is God, then it fails to conform with the statement above or trinity, because the three make up God, not one.

On the other hand, if you insist Jesus is God and the Father is God, then its very clear that Jesus is the Father! Its the common relationship.

The conclusion from the above statement is that how is a Father now the Son?

tbaba1234: No it doesn't... The fact that the government controls what laws to implement and what not to :: already compromises the law.... What we have are pseudo-sharia states, that choose what they want and what they don't...

If the sharia was properly implemented ; many of the leaders would have been punished for some crime...

There is a difference between a majority muslim state and an Islamic state.... currently there exists no Islamic state... We have mainly secular states with majority muslim populations.

The man in the video said an Islamic state which is accurate; no state in the world meets the basic criterion.

The laws of the sharia are diverse: Some are related to your daily life like prayer, fasting, giving charity...

Some others are state laws so if i live outside the Islamic state, i am not bound by those laws:: These cases have to go through the judicial system before a decision is made.. I can't just see someone stealing on the road and carry out punishment without the case being heard in a court.

Look at the apostacy law this way;

Acts against the nation are considered treason aren't they? what is punishment for treason in 9ja?

The constitution of an Islamic state is based on Islam; If i live in the state, i abide by its laws;

If someone leaves Islam in an Islamic state for whatever reason, as long as he doesn't go around trying to convert people to whatever belief/unbelief he has found thereby trying to discredit the constitution of the state. He is fine. Otherwise, It is treasonable.

He can live his life, he doesn't have to pray or fast if he doesn't want to..

Note that a non muslim tends to lose all his citizen rights including that of political participation. Among all the states you mentioned (islamic), has there been a Christian or atheist ruler??

tbaba1234: ^It was a bit of an entrapment by the guy asking about the apostacy law in the video. It gives him limited time to go through it.

It is not as simple as convert and get killed; that is not how it goes.

A number of conditions must be met:

First of all, it must be an Islamic state, most of the Muslim world are secular states. There is no true Islamic state in existence at the moment and the majority of muslims maintain their faith.

Also,leaving Islam and proselytizing another faith or carrying out acts to discredit Islam is treasonable.... Remember It is an Islamic state... If however you convert and mind your business; no one cares.

Thirdly, the person is not just executed, he speaks to the scholars about his doubts and is provided evidences about the divinity of the Quran so as to convince him, if that fails, he is threatened basically to shut him up from proselytizing disbelief in an Islamic state. If he relents, he is let go and can continue in his disbelief and live his normal life.

No, most of the states in the "muslim world" are not secular, they are built on a view of islamic jurisprudence, at most a mixture btw islamic governance and secularism.

An open society can't survive with the level of censorship present in Islamic states; namely blasphemy laws, laws to guard islam, apostacy laws, etc. Dissent must be able to exist and flourish. A man's unique view on religion despite being against State tailored and doctored version is not a threat to it except the State is built and depends on such ideology for survival, then its a prisoner of its people's minds.

Propagation of religious beliefs in my view isn't serious enough to be treason.

Pastor AIO: It is interesting how the effect of the Internet parallels the effect of the Printing Press on history.

frees up information

^^ he is not a muslim, some muslims organized a fatwa for him. So he had to use his brakes.

I was banned from the section, because according to the mod, my views on islam was not agreeable with his. It only proves the negative side of islam and how ugly and far it can go to establish the most ridiculous censorships.

jmoore: First of all, you have to admit whether abortion is murder or not.

1-high risk deliveries to bad health: This is still not a valid point as the percentage of these kind is very small and sometimes something can be done to save both baby and the mother.

Remember the high mortality rate in Nigeria. A woman might decide not to go through the risk of delivery and no child at all.

jmoore: 2-Inadequate resources to take care of the baby: Look around you, there are many people who can't afford to take care of themselves. You should also advise them to commit suicide since they cannot meet the daily needs.

women often have at stake their future, education or career. Some are impoverished to an extent that they are barely able to fend for themselves. Besides, they are not in a socialist country, its a darminist world, where they are to fend for themselves. In order words, abortion should be demandable by women because its a necessary reproductive right.

jmoore: the example I gave about David should have cleared up this question.

Do you prefer an unborn baby who was murdered to go to hell or heaven?

only persons can be murdered, even by Nigerian laws, a foetus is not a person.

solomon111: @calloti
There is no way you can isolate science from christianity.
You should read up on how christianity helped the advancement of science.
I wonder the religion Isaac Newton,Michael Faraday,james watt e.t.c. belong to?
Any way the ball is in your court,believe what you want.

Science and its "truths" are seperate and different from Christianity and its own "truths". Two different systems. Scientific reports must have result from the scientific method, only then is it stamped as scientific.

Religious adherents who use the scientific method can't credit their religions as a direct contribution to therir work.

jmoore: where else should they go to, hell?

The Almighty says “I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy”.

The point is that aborted babies are believed to be given a special dispensation of the grace of God; it is not by their innocence but by God’s grace that they are received into heaven.

This applies to infants and kids who have no knowledge between evil and good. For example, when David and Bathsheba lost their precious child, David realized that he could not expect to see him again in this life, but he clearly said the day will come when “I shall go to him...” (II Sam 12:23).

And what happened to the concept of Original Sin??

jmoore: SMH , words of a terrorist!!

You can't blame a mother for aborting for reasons ranging from high risk deliveries to bad health, or inadequate resources to care for both the baby and herself

ijawkid: @logic boy...
Ur so myopic...now I know...lol

Even a 2yr old child understands what colossians was talkin about...


Remember in my 1st reply to u I did explain slave/master relationship...??

I asked u if u had an employer??

Who are our earthly masters??

Ur employer is. Ur master.....
I believe ur an employeee.....

Ur employer is ur master and u have to obey him/her...

Jesus and his apostles encouraged obedience to superior authority which u apply .....
Don't u

U just jejunely applied that scripture to prove ur ignorance..

Didn't d industrial law u learnt in school not teach u slave/master relationship?

Logic boy grow up and learn to understand that d bible gives admonisions that if practiced makes u a better person....

U never for once commented on Jesus words as regards fighting wars and engaging in communal clashes....
Jesus gave us principles on which if applied wars will cease to d extremities of d earth...

But many won't apply them and so u see the chaos all over....

Like I told u the word slave means so many things and I guess you are a slave too...

Jesus is a slave of Yahweh....

Paul even admonished christians to slave for each other.....

So I don't knw what u have with slavery...

We are all slaves of our superiors,there's notin u can do about it...

Untill Gods kingdom comes,man will always dominate man.....

This is poor display of legal principles. Master and Servant is centred an employment relationship and found on concensus on the other hand, a slave is a res of the master.slave/master relat. is property law.

Imperfect humanists have been able to reason that slavery is a consequence of social injustice and inequality. Slavery is inherently EVIL and unacceptable in a civilized society. Man is born free, but religion bounds him in chain everywhere.

U are not putting ur religion in a bad light.

OLAADEGBU: "if the foundations be destroyed, what can the righteous do?" (Psalm 11:3).

Its not favourable to Christianity to pitch science only to the side of Humanism.

Most Christians I know often stress that humanist values could be found in Christianity.

frosbel: Ask Muhammad

SMH

I hope you don't mind my intrusion, BUT why does an omniscient being have two wills?

davidylan: no one has "twisted" the bible here. tired of fools who run up here, misquote, mutilate and deliberately turn the bible upside down then cry about others twisting the bible once their own deception, lies and illogical nonsense has been exposed.
Sure you shld not reply, you are the smarter one... better not to expose your own ignorance.

Davidlyan is entitled to interpret the bible in whatever manner he wishes. He hasn't laid his format yet, so no reason to criticize his interpretation. However, while Christianity demands a propagation of the religion to other minds, there is no tenet or necessary req that says so. I love my life as a quiet atheist, and whoever invites my comments on religion can either take it or leave it.

Jainism and some Yoruba beliefs don't see a merit in propagation also.

But I don't find Christians going to all places to advertise their religion: not mosques or NN or NK.

OLAADEGBU: Three-in-Oneness inthe Godhead:

Scriptures indicate there is three-in-oneness in the godhead.

In Matthew 28:19,the resurrected Jesus instructed the disciples,

Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptising them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit[/b] (Matthew 28:19).

The word name is singular in Greek,thereby indicating God’s oneness. However,the definite articles in front of Father, Son and Holy Spirit (in the original Greek) indicate they are distinct personalities, even though there is just one God. These distinct personalities relate to each other. The Father and the Son, for example, know each other (Matthew 11:27), love each other (John 3:35), speak to each other (John 11:41-42). The Holy Spirit descended upon Jesus at His baptism (Luke 3:22), He is called another comforter or helper (John 14:16), He was sent by the Father and Jesus (John 15:26), and He seeks to glorify Jesus (John 16:13-14).

A Simple Analogy

A helpful analogy of the Godhead is that God is like a triangle that is one figure yet has three different sides (or corners) at the same time. So there is a simultaneous threeness and oneness. Of course, no analogy is perfect since in every analogy there is a similarity and a difference. The difference here is that "sides" or "corners" are not persons. Nonetheless, the triangle does illustrate how there can be threeness and oneness at the same time. While there is one God, there are three persons within the One God. QED .

Ola, I think you failed in expressing the Trinity mathematically. You are not accepting the necessary implication.

OLAADEGBU: The Father = God; Jesus Christ = God;The Holy Spirit = God. Refer tothe diagram abovefor better understanding. Just asthe Father and Jesus Christ are One so our Lord Jesus Christ andthe Holy Spirit are One,therefore,the Father, Son and Holy Spirit are One.The Father xThe Son xThe Holy Spirit = God. Simples

Jesus = God

The Father = God,

Then Jesus = The Father.

vedaxcool: If you are ignorant u should at the very least be sensible enough to shut up! Since like u claim theology is not your forte, like I said Islam looses nothing even if the whole world was to reject it, when Muhammad pbuh preached Islam Allah told him that his duty is to get the message across whether the people believe or not is not his problem. When Islam started the munafiquuns tried destroying it with their hypocrisy, they join Islam in the morning and de converted in the eveining, yet all their silly games did not destroy Islam, rather Allah made it triumph against the plots of the hypocrites, it is Allah who guides men and it is HE who let men go astray. I reassert that Islam looses nothing by men who decide to go astray. Alhamdulilah, Allah makes the truth clear from errors

Thus came apostacy!

I have always wondered why Islam isnt seen as an individual achievement/fulfilment, rather a community action/adoption. Why is Islam not personal?

OLAADEGBU: Here is a scientist by the name Alistair McGrath, using the analogy of the nature of light in quatum physics to explain what looks like a contradiction in the Godhead and how it got solved.

"An example of this from the world of science concerns the nature of light. By the first decade of the twentieth century, it was clear that light behaved in a very strange way - sometimes it seemed to behave as if it was a wave, and sometimes as if it was a particle. It couldn't be both at once, and so the cry 'contradiction!' was raised. How could it be two totally different things? But eventually, through the development of the Quantum Theory, it was found that this contradiction expressed a fundamental difficulty in grasping what the nature of light really was. In other words, the contradiction did not arise on account of light, but on account of our difficulties in conceiving it."

McGrath went on to show that the nature of light was such that two contradictory models had to be used to account for its behaviour but with God we require three contradictory models.

"Most of us know what light is without needing to think about waves, particles or Quantum Theory. Light is what we need in order to see, to do our everyday business, to read and write. It is what comes out of the sun, and to a lesser extent from the moon. It is what we get when we switch on electric light bulbs or strip lighting. If we were physicsts, we might want to think about light in much more detail and go into the full complexities of it - and so we might start talking about waves, particles and Quantum Theory. But we don't need to do this in order to make use of light or to recognise it when we see it."

This is how three contradictory models on the Divine level make sense in the concept of the Godhead. And if we still can't fully comprehend it that does not negate the fact that it does make sense. When I switch on the computer and interact with you on nairaland I do not know how they work, but there is an explanation beyond the limits of my understanding and which does make sense.

If JesusxHSxFather=Godhead, then Jesus = HS!

I think you just bastardized the meaning of love from a affection/endearment to cold expectation of obedience. To apply your definition, Kings, Dictators and despots in general LOVE their subjects! Isn't that ridiculous??!!

buzugee: thats because you dont know the meaning of love. you have been seduced by the ways of the wicked. PROVERBS 12 VS 26[b] the way of the wicked seduceth them.[/b]. see, the world has been handed to the wicked JOB 9 VS 24 The earth is given into the hand of the wicked. now the ways of the wicked permeate every facet of society. the wicked has indoctrinated youinto believing that 'love' is a mushy desirous lustful feeling. well thats wrong. this is the lords definition of love JOHN 14 VS 15 If ye love me, keep my commandments. see God does not want your lustful desirous feelings. he says you show me love by obeying my commandments. now you see how your post makes no sense now ?

No, I'm not. Fear is panicky response from anticipation of danger. We ought to fear the wicked, because they are of harm to us. While friends and family are loved.