₦airaland Forum

maclatunji: @Kay17, The Prophet (SAW) ruled over much of Arabia at the time of his death and he was not a king, neither were his next four successors. So what are you yapping about?

Oops! Hitler was neither a king, thus must have ran a democracy.

tbaba1234: If a creator exists, then his standard is the only objective standard for morality -good/evil-

Social pressures and evolution are the only other options and they are not objective......

What paradox??::: I gave you the only objective definition of evil and it is man's disobedience of the laws of his maker::

You are talking about what your perception of evil is... Again read my first and second posts....

There is a third option, acts themselves do have an inherent moral value. Genocides, rape, murder..

If the creator is the standard of good and evil, it becomes arbitrary and irrational. Its more or less a reward system used by despots.

seguun: It is useless trying to lecture you God can do anything while you don't believe there is God. To start with, existing without any creator is enough proof to conclude God can do anything.
You don't believe everything came by chance, so what is your belief about the origin of the universe?
If I get you right are you saying what you designed is supposed to be more complex than you?

Good question, I believe arguing for a necessary creator is primitive, because the question on why there is something rather nothing persists at this level. Nothing is struck out since its unproductive and barren to trigger something. As a result everything exists either actually or potential, creative mind isn't necessary to organise ALL since there is already a reality: preexisting container/platform which dictates the organisation of all entities. This accounts for rationality and order in the Universe. Most complexities exist as potential and arise from simpler entities.

We should forget about the moral aspects of that, since it does no injury to his existence.

Why is God necessary?

Why does he have the right attributes?

Is he the aggregate of all that exists?

Assuming your analysis is valid, you would agree with me that there is higher body of rules which prevail over God, which govern his person, influence/power, and origin and places him under a burden of necessity?

Assuming your analysis is valid, you would agree with me that there is higher body of rules which prevail over God, which govern his person, influence/power, and origin and places under a burden of necessity?

Deep Sight: In the way that I envision it, endless rays of the light energy of the creator is what streams into creations. There could be many gradations of such streaming, but it would appear to me that matter is the coarsest result therefrom.

I have used this analogy before: Have a look at air. Imagine this to be the "non material" beginning. As it streams and looses heat, it becomes liquid. That's a second gradation. Further loss of heat will eventually freeze it into ice. It becomes solid. Thats a third gradation. This is just a coarse example but this is similar to how I imagine the streaming of the energy of God eternally bringing forth different gradations.

Note that the solid gradation may not have the mobility and flexibity of the liquid gradation. And the liquid gradation may not have the mobility of the gaseous gradation.

The gradation which is so fine that it is "the tipping point to nothingness*" is the divinity that is God.

* Portion in italics being a quite From Pastor AIO

I have to ask, what is that element that your God is of, by that I understand matter as just a form of it.

Deep Sight: Fair enough. But I'd disagree on the universe being eternal in the past. Current scientific thinking does not say so. As far as we know, the universe commenced from the point of a singularity at a finite determinable point in the past.

Thus the question of the universe being self-existent is ruled out.

If the universe is not self-existent, then it must have a cause or trigger.

And since the universe is material, then that cause or trigger could not itself be matter, as no effect is its own cause.

As such, it is logical to presuppose a non-material pre-existent cause.

This is what is called God.

I do disagree with you on that. The "Creator" will extend a part of himself as material to build the universe, as a result fill it with HIS substance. The creator is necessarily material.

To which I replied was illogical tying up the standard of good and evil to the wishes of another moral agent

I also mentioned a paradox where by ur earlier definition, if God saw evil as a useful then its good

In your own view what is Evil??

gidiMonsta: You don't listen much do you? I believe someone on this thread already told u that no Muslim country practices Islamic governance so your question on monarchy is irrelevant.

Islam may not be an advocate for democracy but the Qur'an places a high responsibility on leadership and government, it extols values that if adhered to will guarantee a system more people oriented than imperialist democracy.

Before you foolishly conclude that ideals of human rights are not in the Qur'an, I'll advise u pick a copy to read so you can see the folly of your ignorance.

I wasn't relating to present day states only.

The Quran places value on govt and leadership?? Oops that accounts for its despots.

I don't see any human rights in the Quran.

seguun: And you think you are making any sense by concluding there is no God, A claim you cannot substantiate. If you believe everything came into existence by chance, are we supposed to continue to ask in infinito "what is the cause of the cause of the cause of the cause of the cause of the cause of the cause..." Isn't the most logical way out is to conclude there is a cause that is uncaused? Then mankind devoting his studies on how to identify this "uncaused cause"?, then various religions and beliefs be studied and identify which religion/beliefs has the most logical understanding of this "uncaused cause"?.
And tell me why the "uncaused cause" cannot be more complex than its effect?

God as most Christians and muslims describe him to be is an irrational construct, he is said to be omnipotent, meaning he can do the ratioanl impossible like create a square circle, create from nothing, create a married bachelor, and other irrational monsters.

He is also given attribute whereby he can do what he is incapable of : supernatural

At the end of the day, irrationality exists, God does.

I don't think everything CAME by chance.

The essence of cause is to explain complexities: cars, the sun, human body, water, it would be a paradox is end up saying lesser complexities are the result of the most complex being imaginable. Besides it contradicts human experience

tbaba1234: 1. What Apostasy law? How many countries have Islamic laws? The apostasy law is only applicable to people who Proselytize their new faith in an Islamic state. Most muslim countries have secular laws not Islamic laws.... We see that these countries as they gain their 'freedoms' vote for islamic government.

Tunisia voted for Al-nadha, an islamic party after years of secularism under ben ali
Egypt voted for the muslim brotherhood, and a salafist party after mubarak.
The same will happen in libya.

Given an option, muslims will vote for islam over any form of secular government. Our pride and honour was when we had Islam ruling us.

Trust me, if you know a little about the Quran... Atheism is not an option anyway. Do you ever hear of Muslim scholars leaving Islam?

2. The west and south east asia drive the global economies so whatever happens there affects the global economies.

You still haven't provided the islamic states that aren't monarchies

The ideals of democracy and human rights are not in the Quran, they are modern ideas which Islam is not up to date with.

I also don't understand why Muslims must lord over their neighbours, why are islamic rules forced on nonmuslims? Most have their own faiths and convictions. And these islamic parties will legislate apostacy laws and blasphemy laws. If Islam is descending into the political arena, can it withstand the scrutiny and criticism??

Also can an atheist serve in a political office, maybe president. Will homosexuality be decriminalized and recognized under islamic reign??

tbaba1234: All the questions on the legacy of evil thread had been answered. I would just keep repeating myself.... Not my favorite sport.

Firstly, we are looking at existence in relation to our existence.

By necessity, the creator of the universe must exist outside of it. Otherwise, we end up with the absurd conclusion that the universe created itself. Meaning it existed and didn't exist at the same time. The cause of the universe therefore has to be outside it.

We know that our universe began to exist:: This existence is independent of its creator.

Your statement does not even make scientific sense:

Before the universe there was nothingness::: where is the potential that is eternal?

The only eternal manifestation must be the cause of all that exists(from our perspective). We (muslims) have good reasons to believe that is God. Because the attributes this cause exhibits is coherent with the muslim definition of God.

A conclusion that an absolute void existed and from within the Universe popped is logically impossible. An deep analysis indicates a contradiction and we have never had it in our experience/commonsense, that barren emptiness is productive in any sense. Same goes with a conscious creative agent weaving out the entire universe out of nothing. It is neither reason nor science, but magic.

If such an entity is capable of such, its reasonable to believe such a being is likewise logically impossible.

Accordingly its fallacy and a paradox to conclude everything is created if design is present. Because the designer himself/herself will be subjected to such premise and the absurdity of infinite regress takes over. A new premise will be needed.

To Science, the universe is said to arise from a super compressed bit: point of singularity. Which also accounts for all the matter and energy present in the Universe today. Before the singularity are big ? ?.

@tbaba

Pls address the issues.

The role of free will

What Evil is, whether its an imperfection as I say it is

Nature of God and compatibility with evil

yommy2sure: wow...i bet we are all blind then! The bed you slept on, did u check whether it could support ur weight 2ruot the nyt? U just assumed it wont...thats blind faith, the food u eat evryday, do you analyse it chemically to know if therez poison in it? No. Blind faith. The house u live in do you do structural analysis of it evrysecond to know it wont collapse on you at any minute, no...blind faith. So wats ur point?

confidence in my bed or food or my house does NOT amount to knowledge. Why will I say I know my food isn't poisoned? Or my house is in perfectly built when I don't know anything about structural engineering?

Pls separate faith from knowledge. Faith doesn't tell us something new, or separate errors from truth.

ekwah: Logic mind have you seen evolution in action before? NO
Did Darwin see evolution in action? NO
Has any scientist seen evolution in action? NO

Have I seen God in action YES!!!

I don't even understand how reasonable men put faith in the soooo limited knowledge/power of fellow men. I am not a Christian because of stories mehhn. Wetin my eyes don see, mouth no fit talk. Una just dey deceive una self, simple! If you get your so called "logic mind" and also shine ya eyes wella? U go see say u are on the wrong track mehn. NO ONE can deny Gads existence. laye e no dey happen.

BITC.H!! Quit saying rubbish! There is no scientific principle that declares all evidence and theories must be visible to the eye. Black holes, point of singularity, gravity, the millions of galaxies, Sun's lifespan, cosmic revolutions all can't be seen!!

ekwah: Logic mind have you seen evolution in action before? NO
Did Darwin see evolution in action? NO
Has any scientist seen evolution in action? NO

Have I seen God in action YES!!!

I don't even understand how reasonable men put faith in the soooo limited knowledge/power of fellow men. I am not a Christian because of stories mehhn. Wetin my eyes don see, mouth no fit talk. Una just dey deceive una self, simple! If you get your so called "logic mind" and also shine ya eyes wella? U go see say u are on the wrong track mehn. NO ONE can deny Gads existence. laye e no dey happen.

BITC.H! Quit saying rubbish!! There is no scientific principle that states all evidence or theories MUST perceived by sight!

tbaba1234: This makes no sense:: All existence have no beginning?

We know the universe began to exist, or do you deny that?

what can exist prior to existence?? Fantasy?? Unreality? Everything is eternal either as a potential or actuality.

And you bailed out on the legacy of evil thread!

Blackteeth: If you are refering to God as life, then we dont know about its origin. But if you are refering to humans as life, then it has an origin.

For your second paragraph, are you saying everything has no begining of existence?

If nothing created the sun to give life on earth like you believe, why is it impossible for nothing to create a supernatural being to create the sun and life?

I was speaking about the phenomenon Life, not cockroach life or human life. If as you claim has a designer, then God who is life must have a designerm pls resolve this paradox.

Yes all existence has no beginning. Supernatural concept means an entity can beyond its nature/character and that's irrational and inconsistent. There can't be supernatural as a result. Animists do worship Natural objects.

Blackteeth: The reason am posting this as a new topic is because I believe the content of this post is heavy enough to give the atheist a shattering blow and a run for their brains. So I want many atheists as possible to see this and save themselves more embarasment.

First I want to tell these atheists to disregard what the bible and christians say about God and think independently because the bible seems to contain some flaws. Therefore it should not be the sole instrument to decide whether a creator exists or not.


Since the atheist ruled out the presence of an intelligent living creator and claim creation happened out of nothing and by chance, then it means that the universe is dead and unconcious, and this unconcious universe intelligently created more than 100,000 different things at its unconcious state. WOW!! This is just the same as saying that houses, cars, phones, bridges, shoes etc are built by dead and unconcious men. MY PEOPLE IS THIS POSSIBLE CAN A DEAD AND UNCONCIOUS THING CREATE MILLIONS OF DIFFERENT INTELLIGENTLY WELL DESIGNED THINGS HOW CAN AN UNCONCIOUS UNIVERSE CREATE INTELLIGENT CONCIOUS HUMAN BEINGS WHO CANT UNDERSTAND WHAT THE UNCONCIOUS UNIVERSE CREATED? Lol. Hahahaha. If I tell atheists that a certain house was built by dead men will they believe me So why should athiests believe that millions of different intelligently made things were created by a dead and unconcious universe? Now if you believe that the universe conciously created everything, that conciousness is what is called God, and not necessarily a man with a long beard and other characteristics that humans have used to describe him.

I think you made an assertion that LIFE came before everything, and yet say life had an origin! Pls do resolve this conflict in your opinion.

Also, the only reason for a cause is in the case of complexities. The Universe can be broken down into bits which form other entities and is the background. In another sense, everything had always existed. For example, a boeing 747 is made of metal, composite and other materials, those materials are the combinations of smaller items like iron or plastic. . And one can keep breaking it down, BUT you will never reach nothing.

Our theist brothers like blackteeth, want us to believe an absurdity/fantasy that before everything was nothing!! Absolute emptiness and void, and in an ACT of MAGIC/supernatural/irrationality a life form called god caused itself. This being is far complex than the Universe, its omniscoent, omnipresent, omnietc. But god is needed to create matter from a void and with a design which can't be explained!! An omnipotent being designs in voids!! Probably god is a god of pointless ceremonies.

I also want to THANK the Sun for its gift of life and the energy/strength it gives earth everyday. The Sun is unconscious, yet it gives earth life

Logic Mind: genocide

If god says it ok, its not a sin. For example bloodthirsty Joshua is not a sinner, if fact he is MOG.

cogitoErgo: To me, there are three types of sin
1. Universal sin
2. Societal sin
3. Personal sin
Universal sin is a sin that is known all over the known human race to be a sin. E.g., it is generally accepted to be wrong for one to pick somebody else property or belonging without express permission of the owner, such an act is called stealing and it is a sin in any culture!
Killing your fellow human without any justifiable reason is also a universal sin(no known human society encourages fun killing of fellow human).

I think you "murder". Justified is subjective to the society. In war, its perfectly fine.

ekwah: The point here is pretty clear. There is absolutely no one earth who completely SHOWS NO FAITH IN SOMETHING, even the so-called atheist.

Faith is the act of not thinking and is synonymous to blindness.

tbaba1234: What is practised today is not political islam:::

The dictatorships in the muslim world have been largely based on secular ideologies. A monarchy is not the islamic system of government.

The fact is that there is no state in the world practising islam as a political system.

pls mention two islamic states that are not monarchies rather from the inception of Islam. Ottoman empire, Muhammed's fiefdom are struck since they are both monarchies

yommy2sure: dont get you, why will a theist say his God exist and then say he doesnt exist?

If a theist's definition of his God is contradictory or irrational, its a bad concept which can't survive in reality

buzugee: doctors lawyers and astronauts are gentile professions. they will not be needed in the kingdom. The messiah and 144,000 elected men from the 12 tribes of israel will judge all matters hence negating the need for lawyers, you will never fall sick in the kingdom hence negating the need for doctors and astronauts are just symptoms of a prideful demonic gentile nation and hence will not be needed.

why wouldn't it be gentile, because they aren't built on ignorance

Seriously?! You reason? By accepting that snakes talk, that two ppl populated a earth with 7 billion, that donkeys talk and that the Sun stood still?!

If the almighty perfect omnipotent creator in an empty arena creates, why is design necessary?

What puzzles me about islam is its rules and the manner its being followed by its adherents. There is zero rationale behind other than please God. Most of them are at the point of absurdity

Sweetnecta: The Yorubas believe there is One God.

What they worship Him through as god on earth/physically representing Him is another matter.

I am yoruba and I ought to know.

And I am not advocating anything here except that there is God, Who I have called Creator.
I am using Quran at least for the most part to advance my position on this matter.

In all your knowledge, Kay17, you have not provided any evidence that there is no God.

Yorubas don't. Their mythology is similar to that of the Greeks. They worship and acknowledge the existence of many gods

Saying God is a Creator is not enough, u could mean energy which is the driving force of the Universe, or early life, or a human. In my mind, when the word "Creator" is used, an artist appears and is linked to a craft or intellectual property.

Pollution of some purported temple?! God's instruction.

But you claim ONE God, but Yorubas don't believe in onE God!

The fact that the Koran contains medical facts don't mean its the right religion.

But you claim ONE God, but Yorubas don't believe in onE God!