₦airaland Forum

dorox:
True enough my friend. But then again, how do we judge a religion if not be looking at how it is practiced by its adherents?

Would it then be by looking at it in just one country Nigeria? You said you are a Christian, so should l judge Christianity only by how you and your church practice it?

dorox:
What is relevant is the extent to which such belief is held in the society. Here in Nigeria, public libraries are almost extinct, a relic of our colonial past. The few that remain are more or less museums with a catalog of books that was published no later than the mid 90's. Meanwhile, we have been investing huge sums as a society into building thousands of churches and mosques and stocking our bookshops with religious books as we continue to decimate our educational system.

But yes, you are correct. Brazil is a religious country, they haven't reached the level of religiosity that would make them stop investing in important things like sports and education. That is why they can embark on a project like this; a twenty billion naira science museum.

In other words, the problem is with Nigeria and not religion, or perhaps the way Nigerians practice religion.

Ranchhoddas:
See Plaett.on's post on the first page.

Plaetton asked if religion is a factor in our failure, and seems to believe it is, do you agree with him? is religion now the cause of our lack of proper planning?

dorox:
Where the op is coming from will make sense to anyone that have heard Nigerian supporters at a sports event singing " He is a miracle working God."

Yes you are right but Nigerians believing in the miracle working God for football or Olympic games is irrelevant to our failure or success, that is my point. The op seem to have made it relevant. Brazil is a very religious country and some of these players like kaka depend on God for their success, did they fail? even in this Olympic games many individuals believe God is with them, and when interviewed would sing the praises of God, it is a usual thing in sports. Christians usually do this because of the book of proverbs that says ''commit all thy ways to the lord''(may not be the exact quote), but thesame book of Proverbs says ''seeth thou a man diligent in his work, he shall stand before kings not mere men". Christians are aware of both verses and are not to choose one totally at the expense of the other. This seems to be your point but it is different from that of the op. The op somehow wants to show a correlation between the religious and failure.

dorox:
I am a christian and I get what the op is saying about magical thinking and how it affects how we think and how we react as a society when faced with a problem.
The key point the op is making is that the solutions we come up with to a given problem depends to a large extent on how the problem is defined or perceived by us in the first place. So in a country like Nigeria where most people believe that the spiritual governs the physical we tend to find spiritual answers to every problem since the problem is spiritual by definition.

Take one common example, many of us pray fervently when embarking on a journey of say Lagos to Abuja by road. But when travelling a similar distance between two European cities we tend not to pray at all and when we do, not as fervently.
It is quite easy to see why the same person that begged God for journey mercies while in Nigeria won't even remember to ask God for journey mercy while travelly in a developed country. It is because we have come to dissociate bad roads, bad drivers and unroadworthy vehicles from why a road journey in Nigeria is filled with peril and associate wicked blood sucking spirits with their numerous witches and wizards human agents as the cause of accidents.
So instead of demanding for good roads and holding our government accountable for how our taxes are spent, we worry about not missing our tithe payment lest calamity befalls us.
Instead of insisting that drivers drive responsibly and obey trafic rules, we pray and ask for journy mercies.
Instead of making sure that the vehicle is roadworthy, we just simply cover it with the blood of Jesus.
Yet we wonder why we have more accidents on our roads compared to countries where they don't utter a word of prayer before travelling.

I understand your point but l still fail to see how this correlates with winning gold medals at the Olympics or are you saying Nigerians see the Olympic tournament as a spiritual battle? rather than preparing or working hard? Even the example you gave, shows that the religious even though they see things from a spiritual point of view knows what should be done, and would also agree with you on that.
The problem l have with the op is in connecting our religion to our Olympic woes, rather than blaming it on our lack of planning majorly due to bad governance and corruption.

realmindz:
I think we are getting close to agreeing, so close but I maintain my stance that religious beliefs have nothing to to do with success, it's all delusions and mindsets. That X factor, the God factor, the bit of luck. In summary, religion has nothing to contribute. It just exists

If u read my post well, u'll see I pointed out
great citizens build great nations which create an enabling environment to build great individuals and talents thereby they enjoy success in all spheres.

It's a fact that nigeria is too religious, virtually everything starts with religion and ends with it.

it satrts from each individual, a man births more children than his finance can provide. He has the mindset that children are God's gifts and God will one way cater for them. The children grow to become malnourished and poverty stricken plus illiteracy. Tell me, how such a nation shall progress with high rate of illiteracy, poverty and malnourishment.

my intention was never to bash religion, but if I did by default, I'm not sorry either

Is Nigeria more religious than USA of the 19th and early 20th century or even GREAT BRITAIN of that era? Maybe the problem is in the way Nigerians practice religion.

realmindz:
Thank you for that.
i tell u that they give thanks to God makes no difference, they believe in God makes no difference either. They won their success thru hard work and some bit of luck (good coincidences of nature) which many attach to the supernatural
success is independent on your religious beliefs, which has been proven by the obvious facts we see around us.

So are you saying Nigeria and those religious nations you mentioned do not know all these? I am yet to see a religious person who does not know that success is a result of hard work, even the bible talks about running a race in order to get the crown, and the bible states that the man who does not work should not eat.
The fact is there's no proof that these religious nations are solely depending on God to be successful in the Olympics, their problem is majorly poor governance, corruption, amongst other things, due to these problems they know they ain't prepared, thus they then hope for some kind of magic, but deep down they doubt that prayer because they know they ain't adequately prepared.

DeSepiero:
Did the op mention Atheist Nations?
Why not read, comprehend and digest the post?

What the op quoted in the end made reference to some religious nations not doing well. There was actually no need to add religion there.

realmindz:
cus u ve all made religion appear more important and necessary. Nigerians will rather leave things to faith than reality and facts. hate it or love it, that's the truth and it's killing us.

For peace, belief whatever u wish, but leave little things to chances.

The north Korea and Russia u mentioned are far ahead in many spheres of life and they are still ahead even in Rio

So what about the Americans who usually give God thanks for the medals and many other individuals who attribute their success to God, does it make them less successful? Leaving all things in God's hands doesn't mean we shouldn't work, and there's no proof that those who rely on God are ignorant of the fact that they must also work hard. For example, the footballer kaka in his time worked hard on the training ground, but when he scored he always gave God all the glory.

DeSepiero:
The op talks about;
Some religious nations not performing well in the Olympics
Working nations performing well in the Olympics
Working nations working in all spheres.

The op doesn't talk about;
Atheists performing well in Olympics
Theists not performing well in Olympics.

Hope you've seen your level of basic comprehension

Isn't it true that some atheist nations like North Korea and Russia are not also performing as well as those working nations in the Olympics? Why mention religion at all in this matter?

winner01:
Why not let the oP speak for himself.


What is wrong with you people? Atheism is the only guarantee of gold medals you non-freethinkers.

The other day, se.un and some atheists were advocating for planned parenthood and abortion.

Lol, if they can blame religion for even Nepa light, l'm sure they also blamed religion for Buhari's ear problem.

FearGodAndLive:
So religion produces medals?

I should ask you

plaetton:
The op was just using the ongoing Olympics to once again question or magical thinking patterns.

Niger are beholden to magical thinking.
It's so easy for charlatans like Mbaka, Adeboye, T.b clown Joshua, etc to hawk magic in churches, in schools and sports arenas as a substitute for rational thinking, creative imagination and self-determination.

As a person thinketh, so he or she lives. Same for individuals, same for Nations, especially nations.

When a Nation suffused magical thinking comes in open competition with other nations not so encumbered, we see and witness the obvious truth; Man is the Master Is The Master Of His Destiny, For Good Or For Bad, Not The Machinations Of Gods Above or Below.

USA has been winning Olympic gold medals for a long time, is it that they have never had this magical thinking? Let's take football for instance, Brazil is a highly religious country of about 90percent Christians, ain't they usually successful when they come against other nations in football.

plaetton:
Please read the op very well.
The op is not suggesting that religion is the direct cause of our underperformance at the Olympics.
No.
Rather, he is asking, as we atheists usually do, why does our over-religiosity, our supposed closeness to divine powers and miracles always fail to show its pre-eminence in major facets of our personal national lives?

Why are we last in economic management, ethics, peace and harmony, science and technology, health and longevity, even the commonest luxury of 24 hr electricity?

Is religion a factor in our collective FAILURE as a people?
That is the simple , but critical question.

We atheists already know the answer.

We just like to remind the rest of you once in a while.

So you are saying without religion Nigeria would have 24hr electricity and no longer have such problems?? Like seriously??
This is perhaps the worst atheist thread l have seen on Nairaland.

So religion is now the cause of our olympic woes as well? Interesting!
BTW, how many atheists are winning gold medals in the Olympics?

AnonyNymous:
A little boy was born into a small tribe in the heart of central Africa. He obeyed his elders, worked on the farm with his dad, and fetched water from the stream for his mom. He also joined them to perform their clan's sacred ritual dance every night. One day, when he was about 10 years old, he went down with tuberculosis after staying up all night in the cold, trying find his beloved pet dog. Having no access to medicine, he dies and is sent to a realm of eternal torment for not knowing Jesus Christ.

Lol, is that the gospel according to Anonymous?

hopefulLandlord:
What makes a law a theocracy law and one a moral law? Pls explain

Moral laws are more personal, they deal with our ethics and enhance our creativity, loving God(higher than ourselves) and our fellow man. Of course the ten commandments gives us an idea, the first four are centered on God, the last six are centered on love for ourselves and our follow man. The law and the prophets which fall under this category are moral laws, punishment for of fences is for the court and no longer on a personal level, this is why Paul could insinuate that the law brings death. For instance, in Ephesians he says let he that stole steal no more but work with his hands, he doesn't prescribe a punishment, but moses did state that the theif should be flogged 40 strokes. Also there were community laws given to distinguish the Jews at that time on what to eat and what to wear, there were social laws on marriage,and so forth.All of these are cultural, hence jesus had to hang everything on the golden rule as did Hilliel before him. Thus defying your body in a form of sexual depravity, or with animals are certainly condemned in the Torah as vice as well as the sacrifice of children to molech all of which even nature rejected the cannanites for. Note that Homosexuality is also condemned in the new testament. I would never discriminate the homosexual for instance, and no christian should do that but we cannot help but beleive that it is a weird behaviour even without scripture and scripture in Romans clearly indicate it is unnatural.
To summarize,
1) Moral laws are the commandments given by God usually dealing with ourselves and fellow man.
2) Laws prescribing punishments or consequences for disbedience of the moral laws are for theocracy.
3)Ritual laws or laws specifically given just for the purpose of Jewish cultural identity, or dealing with social matters in a cultural context, such as dietary laws, clothing, etc are/were for Jewish theocracy.

hopefulLandlord:
Example

A rapist should marry his victim

Anyone who isn't a virgin should be stoned on her wedding day

Anyone who curses his father or mother should be taken out and stoned to death

Do not wear clothing woven of two kinds of material

Most Christians wouldn't do this

But are quick to quote that the bible is against homosexuals and bestiality which is in that same old testament

The post you quoted answers your question. Rapist marrying victim is a civic law for a theocracy not a moral binding law. Not wearing clothes woven of two kinds of materials also served its purpose at that time and it is not a moral law. The others are punishments for sins which were guidelines for a theocracy. Surprisingly, even in that theocracy there were hardly records of such punishments meted out.

hopefulLandlord:
Let me ask you personally

Why do you guys quote a certain bible verse in the old testament to condemn an act but when few verses away shows a certain thing it also condemns but you do them anyways and when that is pointed out, you guys be like "we are under new covenant"?

Example You must however understand that the context of the mosaic laws was for a theocracy. Hence there are civic, ritual and moral laws. For example the physical punishment of sins were the guidelines for Israel, also celebration of passover and other temple rites cannot be practiced today without the Jewish physical temple since we have become the temple of God. Also Christ tells us his death signifies the passover for which we celebrate with bread and wine.
So the spirit of the law remains, especially the moral commandments which Jesus came to heighten.
Then said he unto them, Therefore every scribe which is instructed unto the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which bringeth forth out of his treasure things new and old. Matthew 13v52

I do not understand how you conclude from what he/she said that yahweh created a veil or he placed Satan in everyone's heart.
You said you are here to learn, but the last few questions you have asked seem to spark of insincerity on your part.

01Mysticdon:
If Jehovah/Yahweh give permission to satan don't you think he is evil?
It's just like Buhari giving orders to BH to carry suicide bomb attacks.

I believe the book of job is a fascinating book asking more questions than giving answers. In proverbs, the righteous is duly rewarded and the wicked punished in this life. This was the dominant view of the Israelites. The book of job is a paradigm shift that looks into the problem of suffering of the righteous contrary to popular belief at the time, it is more than a simplistic characterization of who is good or evil.

01Mysticdon:
which do you believe base on that. The old or the new testament?

I believe the new testament, however l believe we give the Devil too much credit and power. However the nature of God becomes more interesting when we combine both testaments and of course gives us much food for thought. In the old testament, Yahweh is good though indifferent. He is just, and does what he has to do. In the new testament, the Devil is more prominent as an opposer to God's divine will, and God is light and there's no trace of darkness in him, he is not counting our sin against us and does not punish instantly, he is love and he is willing to help our weaknesses all the way. I am more inclined to the new testament but l believe there's a lot to learn from the old. It is interesting though.

[quote author=01Mysticdon post=48541787]meaning the Bible God (Jehovah/Yahweh) is Satan? Since he does Good and bad[/quote
Hmmm, l wonder how you got that from my post. Again, l said in the view of some of the old testament authors nothing happens without God's permission, both the good and the bad, so that even Satan in the book of job is presented as a messenger. However the new testament makes it clear that Satan is an adversary who has come to kill, steal and destroy contrary to God's purpose.

01Mysticdon:
for clearification sir.
Can one become a Christian by just doing good and without subscribing to the old testament?
And based on reality are the stories in the old testament true? Because miracles don't exist.
Maybe Christ is like Buddha

Even the old testament is a volume of many books with various ideas that may even differ from one another. In my view the old testament as a whole is by inspiration of God and they contain the human story. But l do not believe everything written therein are to be taken literally. We have inspiring books like Ecclesiastes,psalms,proverbs(my favorite), job, and of course Esther. Then we have the beautiful story of Joseph and the eventful, adventurous life of David. Of course the old testament is very important to me as a christian and l cherish it, but l do not enjoy all books equally, for instance l find it difficult to understand the prophets. Also, l believe in the worldview of some of the old testament authors, God is responsible for everything both good and evil, even Satan does not act on his own, and he is like a messenger of God.
Finally to understand Jesus we need the old testament, his story, teachings and worldview are all together incomplete without it.

At first glance, l think only number 4 could be tricky and confusing though, but when l'm chanced l would engage myself in the debate.

crusadistic:
Trying to claim western achievements for xtianity which through history have actually been detrimental to its progress.
xtians living outside the west which paradoxically just happens to be the least xtian-like are more than 75% of the global xtian population and yet not a single noble prize can be found among them.

Who told you Christianity has been detrimental to its progress? What do you know?

AnonyNymous:
Honestly, I'm more and more convinced that its the society they happen to find themselves in that contributed greatly. Religion thrives with poverty.

You may be right about the society thing, but about religion and poverty? l don't think that's always the case, Great Britain is an example.
In the 18th and 19th century, England was very religious, yet very prosperous, they had the industrial revolution and ruled the world and were still religious for a long time until perhaps the latter part of the twentieth century. America as a nation is not poor but very religious.

lordnicklaus:
Errrr, he once read from the scroll of Isaiah duh!!!

Do you have anything against that?

oslae:
This is no lie, uniport had upgraded to a point where almost all the faculties are now in abuja and alot more classes.
Gone are the days when you'll stand under the sun on a queue with man o war making sure you are on the queue just to board a bus to attend a lecture in either choba or delta.
Memoirs

Hahaha l miss those days sha, uniport and stress.

DBriteLitehouse:
Unique Uniport.I represent U2001 Engineering--2007 Graduating Set.
I am just having sweet memories of my stay at Uniport.
The awokos( TDB)
The Deltarizing
The Bon fire groove at Delta Park
The trekking from Abuja to Choba.
The long-hours frustrating lectures.
Back of Chem
Pritazzo( It was one of the big boys off camp during our set)
And also the confras agro.

Respect to all Aminu Kano boys.

Remember Aluu olive estate in 2007?

Tkayhandsome:
Lol. This Op attended uniport in year 1990.
Man o war was scrapped after they killed someone.
People no longer rush for buses even before I graduated in 2012 unless they have programs like ''Come and see held by Jccf or other big events like matric,convocation or post ume.

Things done change now. Too many fast food at Choba junction + no more boys standing at Delta park gate at night to wait for babe. Who agrees with me?

I agree, even as at 2013 many things don change, but l can relate to many of these pictures sha.. Arena, ofrima stairs,TDB, and of course that old pastor at Delta park, lol.

ionsman:
This one is a lie.

Abi, but the queue in those days na die sha especially prior to 2012, even year 1 registration for medicals that time sha.