₦airaland Forum

jamesid29:
So what type of non-christain narrative or tradition do we expect to see in the historical records?

The same type we see about Jesus. These should have come about as fascinating stories and rumors that could not be easily dismissed. Josephus particularly as a Jewish historian would have noted such things if they were in circulation. Their lack is extremely curious.

Yes sir. Given the same criteria you gave about the historicity of his life

The criteria cannot be the same. We have way more tools at our disposal for verifying events. So again the lack of these is very curious. No video, no audio recording of this person that is supposedly alive and has supposedly appeared and spoken to his followers.

Well thats not entirely correct sir. The earliest preserved criticism of the resurrection of Jesus that has come down to us was that the body was simply stolen from its burial place (the stolen body hypothesis) and the lack of a body is more or less generally taken as a given amongst historians on both sides. That is what generally fits the traditions (for & against) that have come down to us.

That is a narrative that was put forth by Christians, there is no other source that says anything about a missing body. The lack of a body is not something we can verify since that is physical evidence so that even if there is a body it would not be any state to be verified as that of Jesus. We don't even have a any way to recognise it even if it was found for instance.

This would be more of conjecture sir. From what we reasonably know about Christ and from the ethics of his followers (who supposedly were trying to imitate Christ), it's safe to say he wasn't a criminal and most people would have known that.
It is not unreasonable to believe that people(even some within the ruling class) would have been sympathetic to a blameless man who was given the worst death imaginable based on trumped up charges.
From the records we have(which are "christian", even Herod and Pilate found Jesus not guilty. We have no contrary tradition to that.

He was crucified as a criminal even if his offense was trumped up. The Romans came down hard on anyone who was viewed as seditious or usurping their authority. And we do know how they treated criminal corpses, they were generally buried in mass graves after being left to be displayed for awhile.

Secondly, Jesus was crucified during a time of peace and the Romans generally respected the laws of the people they ruled during such times. One of the laws Jews generally held strongly was the Deuteronomy laws of not leaving the condemned person's body overnight. We see this iterated in the temple scrolls, the book of tobit,and in later rabbinic literature(Mishnah Sanhedrin 6:4-6.)

Pilate is on record being not particularly caring to Jewish sensibilities so there is no reason to think he had an inclination to treat Jesus any differently. And even if he was inclined to take down the body what would be the impetus to release it to a member of the Sanhedrin?

Thirdly, if his body was left on the cross, it would be inconceivable to make up a bodily resurrection story of the 3rd day. The Jewish authority would have simply pointed at the body exposed on the cross and ended Christianity before it even got started.
No resurrection, no Christianity.
But as mentioned earlier, every single tradition we have from late antiquity (both for & against) talks of a burial and a missing body.

Yes there was a burial but what type is the question. In a mass grave that has been covered over how would the anybody have recovered the body without significantly disturbing the gravesite? What stopped the disciples from claiming it was spiritual resurrection?

I'm still trying to understand sir? Where is the anywhere else you expect it to appear outside of the people who actually believed that this thing actually happened?
We do have quite a number of records from the group that believed a resurrection happened. We also have records from those who originally didn't believe but we're persuaded at a later date. And finally we have traditions from those who never believed but thought the disciples were looney and gave alternate rational for the missing body( the body was simply stolen from its burial site).

Which other narrative should we expect to see in the records sir?

Already answered above.

Hismasterpiece:
Watch these two videos


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4qhQRMhUK1o&list=PL3gdeV4Rk9EfL-NyraEGXXwSjDNeMaRoX&index=14&ab_channel=drcraigvideos


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6SbJ4p6WiZE&list=PL3gdeV4Rk9EfL-NyraEGXXwSjDNeMaRoX&index=14&ab_channel=drcraigvideos

1 min in and I already have an issue. The issue I have is the narrator saying the Bible authors were "independent" sources. That is laughable. These authors are all Christian so what were they independent of? Also it has been established that Luke and Matthew both copied from Mark, so how exactly can you call them independent?

Hismasterpiece:
Lol... don't expect me to understand all those scientific stuff... i don't have a brain for science o

Well you asked for processes that don't have to do with the earth. Pulsars emit electromagnetic radiation that manifests as periodic radio waves, it even seemed like it was an intelligence broadcasting at first till it was discovered to be completely natural.

sagenaija:

What is causing your confusion?

Blakjewelry:
You are not getting the message. Without religion the world would be a shit hole, religion is the first attempt to streamline man's actions from that animals. You May claim to be an atheist but religion set the platform for other debates. 90% of us were born into a religion before we start to ask questions, I believe I have been an atheist long before you become one yourself but hoverever, I don't like to call my self because many people who called themselves atheist do not base their claim on research and knowledge rather just a way of clearing their conscience of guilt. I was so much interested in the the bible that I decided to study the ancient Jews life and culture, then with love for the history lead me to discovered whole truth, then I started asking hard even though I already have the answer this scared alot of people back then, the truth religion is very important, take away that and watch the world turn to chaos. We have alot of maniacs who being chained by the idea of eternal punishment. Also religion is kinda the yardstick we use in measuring morality or I can raise a thread less argue why it should be ok to kill a man using natural law. Hope you have heard the quote nothing is good or bad but thinking make it so.

We aren't talking about religion, we are talking about being godless and your assumption that being godless is synonymous with lacking morals. If you were lacking morals when you were an atheist that is your experience not the general trend.

Akposy:
Post the pics na

Nah didn't take any pics.

Blakjewelry:
When people mentioned godliness, there is mental of picture they create as in someone who lives a life of compassion, thorough reasoning, a man who won't cheat or kill his fellow man. Infact the whole essence of religion is to make man live a life of piouty but the reverse is the case.

Well that is what I am telling you ,you have been mislead. Being without a god doesn't mean you automatically become a wild thing. Having a morality that is not based on what a god says doesn't make one automatically bad, it just means I am different in how I view things from you. Many of the things you'll consider bad is what I'll consider bad too but for a different reason than god said so.

NwaNimo1:
Illegal constitution.....

[img]https://c./utgxNXJwVJUAAAAd/jamesbond-007.gif[/img]

One of my favourite scenes from Live and Let Die.

FirefliesSun:
I am so mad right now. I am so confused.
Today around 5:30, I had to visit my friend to pluck hibiscus flowers.

One thing led to another while at the flowers, I saw my friend's mother making eyes/wink and pouting to my friends husband. He just smiled back although he noticed I saw it but the mother didn't.

I can swear they are having a fling and it's shameful. I don't know how to tell her. I am just here, very confused and bothered. Even if I wanted to tell her, how do I even start?

You have no evidence so you better not say anything. Don't be the instigator of what would spoil someone's home for no just cause.

Image123:
Lol, the place i quoted is also found in the link, isn't it? So why conveniently avoid it? This one you keep quoting still talks about "Ecclesiastical calendar" which was still Christian in origin. This is an alternative that started more than 1500years after.
The same article says the reason of use was for religious neutrality (used by others who wish to be sensitive to non-Christians). The same origins part you are quoting from said "The year numbering system used with Common Era notation was devised by the Christian monk Dionysius Exiguus". Of course, you should know that Dionysus was the man with the AD. i really don't see how you are arguing that the light outside has nothing to do with the sun.

How does something being of Christian origin mean that anything based off of it is a reference to Christ? Halloween is Christian in origin, I don’t see you claiming it as a reference to Christ.

The year numbering system was devised by Dionysius, so?

Your own argument is like claiming cucumber was made to be intimacy gadget because people use it as such.

Image123:
Who established it and how was it established if i may ask?
It's very convenient to disregard the accounts seeing you have no parallel work from 2000years ago that can be used to compare. You bring up any writing work from 2000years ago and above that you accept, then let's compare. Otherwise, you remain the usual lazy armchair critic.

Established by people who made it their life's work to study these matters.

LoL @ lazy armchair critic. Like I said people with the expertise have established it, trying to ridicule me won't change that.

Blakjewelry:
Can't you see the 'godlessness' and I wanted to say non religious folks

Uh, as an atheist I am godless so what exactly do you mean?

sagenaija:
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The highlighted goes all the more to agree with my claim that majority of those who hold on to evolution do so, not based on any empirical evidence they can readily test out, but by faith.

You miss the point. The kind of change you are talking about would not be experienced in a lifetime doesn’t mean changes are not taking place. Within our life times we have seen speciation events so there is no faith involved.

Kobojunkie:
Oh OK, but what is the benefit to washing meat in vinegar?

I suppose to remove dirty and germs that might linger from exposure. You know in Nigeria meat is not sold like in the UK, it exposed in so many ways that could get one seriously sick if care is not taken.

jamesid29:
As I mentioned earlier,the reason why Jesus was even mentioned in other sources was because of the influx and influence of Christians into the broader Roman consciousness. If christains weren't so counter cultural to the Roman/ancient ethos, it's unlikely we would have the mentions we have of him or most people would know who he is today.
The rise of Christianity and Christians was the reason for the textual records we have. Not the other way round


That's actually my point sir.
It's not objective evidence the way we think of it in the hard sciences, but from an historical stand point, it's the type of evidence we expect to see and it has the best explanatory power.

So if I may ask my original question again, what type of evidence are you expecting to see today

Exactly, the Jewish elite were unsuccessful in suppressing the Christian narrative, there's no reason to believe they could have suppressed any other sources of oral traditions.

Do you mean what evidence I would expect in this day and age?

Ok so, a couple of comments on your statement.
From our historical records of the events, there are a couple of things that are generally agreed upon of the events in Judea at this time period, one of which is the empty tomb.
This is already a tradition that has come down to us.
If I may ask, what type of "non-christain" narrative are you expecting to be preserved of the event.

While largely agreeing with your comments so far, I don't agree the historical evidence covers an empty tomb. That is not something that can be verified as following what we know of the time period. As you may already know criminals would not have been given dignified burials and it would be strange for a member of the same Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus would be the one to make such an arrangement. Add to that the unreconcilable accounts of what supposedly happened at the tomb. It rather seems like a cobbled together tale designed to perpetuate the specialness of a beloved teacher.

The kind of narrative one would expect from that period would be tales of people suddenly seeing many previously dead people, record of an earthquake, the guards tales of seeing an angel, stories from the 500 people who supposedly saw him ascend. On a broader scale Jesus supposedly raised up at least 2 people from the dead, those were significant events that should have been very much circulating among the people. The fact that these and many more don't appear anywhere else just doesn't seem like what would happen if those events really happened.

Kobojunkie:
Is there a particular reason why you chose to skip that particular step in the directions given?

I didn't have vinegar on hand lol.

Kobojunkie:
Did you also wash your meat with vinegar? Did doing that somehow improve the taste of ?

No I didn't.

Akposy:
How was it

Not too shabby. Learnt from my mistakes. I will try again tomorrow. Thanks a bunch.

ifyken:
The guy have been arguing for about six pages now,I don't think there is anything you will say that will convince him, i would have told you to just ignore him but I am also gaining knowledge about evolution I didn't know before

That may be the case but I love talking and learning about Evolution so I don't mind. Let's all learn together.

jamesid29:
That would hardly be considered as objective evidence in the way I think you might be framing it.
Outside of the Christian sources (in this instance, the gospels), almost all mentions of Jesus were in connection to his followers after the fact.

Just as you describe Judea as a backwater it is quite significant that we have so much textual evidence for a single person in such a place and time. It's not ideal but it's enough I would think.

We have almost none, but I get your point.
Judea was a backwater region filled with mostly peasants. And like most of the ancient world, only a very small percentage of the population were literate , so oral traditions took precedence over written ones.

Yes so how come now of these oral traditions carry forward any narrative from the resurrection events that wasn't a Christian source?

So if an event whereby a young Jewish apocalyptic preacher who didn't get along with the political elites came back to life after being executed,
Which people do you believe are the most likely to spread such an occurrence and document it for others?

The place was ruled by the Romans so there was an exposure of the area to more than the influence of the Jewish elite. If there was a narrative that was carried by the locals the Jewish elite won't have been able to completely suppress it, the Christian narrative is evidence of that.

Also if you don't mind, what do you believe the most likely course of action would be from the opposition.

You mean opposition to Jesus? Sure they'd try to suppress the teachings but they couldn't succeed in that so I have no expectation they would have succeeded in suppressing non-Christian sources.

jamesid29:
You mean people writing about the man Jesus, right?

Correct.

Make sense. But I have a kinda of a follow up question.
How many literatures about occurances in Judea from this time period ( 33 - 37 AD) do you believe exist in our historical records?

I don't know but it is certain that should any that provide independent corroboration did in fact exist, they'd have been trotted out as evidence.

TAGM:
Better count 1sharon, lordreed and crystyano out of this numbers. God is on their matter already.

LMFAO! How is the god on our matter? You believe we will stop being atheists?

HazardAwka:
The Bible calls him “the devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world . . . the accuser” (Revelation 12:9–10), “the ruler of this world” (John 12:31), and “the god of this age” (2 Corinthians 4:4).

He is our “adversary [who] prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour” (1 Peter 5:8 Yet, in the most appalling and unwitting bondage, the whole world willingly “follows the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that is now at work in the sons of disobedience” (Ephesians 2:2). At his most successful, his subjects march obliviously to destruction, and take as many with them as they can.

He blinds the minds of unbelievers.
“The god of this age has blinded the minds of the unbelievers, to keep them from seeing the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ (2 Corinthians 4:4). So he not only speaks what is false. He hides what is true. He keeps us from seeing the treasure of the gospel. He lets us see facts, even proofs, but not preciousness.

Satan plucks the word of God out of people’s hearts and chokes faith.
Jesus told the parable of the four soils in Mark 4:1–9. In it, the seed of the word of God is sown, and some falls on the path and birds quickly take it away. He explains in verse 15, “Satan immediately comes and takes away the word which was sown in them.” Satan snatches the word because he hates faith which the word produces (Romans 10:17).

Revelation 12:9
And the great dragon was thrown down, that ancient serpent, who is called the Devil and Satan, the deceiver of the whole world—he was thrown down to the earth, and his angels were thrown down with him.

You still think there's no God? The deceiver of the whole world has already deceived you.
Rethink!!!

How do you know you are not the one being deceived by your god? If your god is a liar how would you be able to tell?

biotechshola:
Do you become an atheist because you think religion is a scam, irrational or you're simply lazy to commit yourself to any religious demands?

If that is the yardstick then why aren't you an ascetic monk?

Realtalk20:
Hunger is causing it. When you are hungry and frustrated you become angry at everyone and everything. You curse your parents , you curse your debtors and those who you are owing money too. You curse your lineage and country and finally your curse your creator and suddenly stop believing in anything due to a rumbling empty stomach

All these so called atheists in Nigeria are hungry ,broke people who have tried to borrow money from everywhere no one helped them. They prayed countless times for help and none came,They converted from Christianity to Islam and back n forth looking for money to rent a one room to sleep in.

Finally one guy is claims to be an atheist gave them 2k to eat which looks like 1 billion to them and immediately they join and start ranting that do called Christians and Muslims and evil ... All because of 2k

DejiZoe:
The main reason why atheism is fast growing is because people want to live their promiscuous and sinful lives guilt free. The concept of God and sin bothers their sinful hearts. Rather than submit to God and receive His salvation, they submit to their lusts. I don't bother arguing with atheists, have only met one though, in the end we will know.

However, deep deep down, they have a witness in their heart that there is God.

Remman:
Hehehe! The people you're thinking are atheists will shout Jesus more than you if they're in a car that's about to crash... There's nothing like that in Nigeria! I had a friend who stopped believing in the existence of God because his father died and he dropped out of school. But one day, a sickness was about to take his life and it was in church that he got his healing after hospital failed him. If he was truly a geniune atheist, he wouldn't have gone to any church but rather die in the sickness but today he's a pastor. This country is filled with fake atheists. Trust me, they're all christians!

Whatever helps you sleep well at night. LoL

Blakjewelry:
Godlessness has more to do with religious folks than religious folks these days. Infact they believe their religion gave them freedom from the consequences of their actions.

Says who? I am an atheist and I know my actions have consequences. Whoever told you otherwise has misled you.

jamesid29:
If you don't mind, I have a few questions on the issues you raised.

When you say "objective evidence that he lived sometime ago in Judea". What do you mean sir?

Basically textual evidence.

When you say "captured outside the bible", do you mean by non-Christian writers? Also what time period are you looking at?

Yes. If these events happened as described by the bible there would have been a mention of them by non-Christian writers because they were not normal occurrences. Th period would be between 33-37AD.

sagenaija:
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I am not questioning science as a discipline but where areas in science do not line up, integrity demands that they be called up.

Scientific theories are not cast in stone. Peer reviews can make for changes to an earlier postulate.

Observation is different from proof of causality. 

The theory of evolution has gone through quite some 'evolution' from Lamarck and Darwin to the position(s) we have today.

When it comes to evolution, the issue is how it has "been rigorously tested and verified to be correct" like you stated. You mentioned a few ways you said it has been tested. Observation of a static system can really not show how progression took place. On the experiment: I'd like to see the details. But then how do we relate working in a controlled environment to that in natural systems?

Earlier proponents of evolution focused on species and the natural world. While laboratory recreations may be of help, at the end of the day it is in NATURE that evolution is said to be taking place (I hope there is no theory yet that claims it has stopped taking place). It would therefore be helpful to see how a process that has been on for millions of years can be seen TODAY to 'prove' evolution. Obviously something that started some eons ago should be observable today with mankind's improved research capabilities and wealth of knowledge acquired over time.

If evolution started from some primordial water and organisms started from there to become terrestrial, how come it is so difficult to observe and show how some workings in some body of water is changing some kind of organism or creature from a previous state to a new one, moving them from say being aquatic to terrestrial whether at micro or other levels?

So, the issue of truly verifiable tests or evidence, I believe, is still a major hurdle for the theory of evolution to cross.

It is difficult to observe as ongoing in nature because the timelines are way beyond the lifetime of the average human. We have to focus on what we can glean from the lab and what we find in the fossil records. Like I mention for the precambrian rabbit many other animal fossils have been made that were confirmed by fossil finds. Tiktaalik for example is a fossil that was found that provided evidence that there was indeed a transition from aquatic to terrestrial lifeforms.

Why are the changes we observe now not enough? Human average height has been increasing for some time now. Human ability to metabolise cow milk is also changing. Changes like these are what accumulate over time so I dunno what kind of changes you are hoping to observe.

PastorM:
His ways are not our ways

Then his ways are rubbish. If your god can sit by and let children suffer debilitating congenital and other diseases while their parents grovel and beg for succour with no help coming from him then what does god is not late mean but that your god has rubbish ways.

This for me is a prime evidence that your god is nothing but a mental construct humans created to ease their mental anguish over things they have no control over.

And all those children who died of cancer while their parents were fervently praying to god nko?

MaxInDHouse:
It's like you love lies more than when someone is telling you the truth.
OK something BIG like the below is coming your way in the name of your flying spaghetti monster!

Amen! I receive it! LMFAO!

OLAADEGBU:
Your master had said something similar when my Lord Jesus rose from the dead.

LMAO! There goes that hyperactive imagination.